So, here we are. On the world.. everybody wants to know why, nobody can definitively tell us without lying or exaggerating. Well, in a Christian philosophy, we can look around and see that there is a God. The fact that something so complex could exist must mean that there is something even more complex behind it, right? Well.. no. Ever heard this line?

"The world embarrasses me, and I cannot dream that this watch exists and has no watchmaker."
-Voltaire

Christianity loves that quote. The watchmaker analogy just seems so perfect, right? The watch didn't just naturally happen of course.

But why did the watch not just naturally happen?

Well, let's look at a watch.



This is obviously a creation of humans. Because we can see that it has a band to wrap around our wrist, a perfect circular display with lines to represent time and hands to point to those lines. It's too precise to be a natural occurance, and we can instantly realize what it was made for... to tell time.

But can you really describe the world as a watch? Let's look at some pictures of nature.



Wait a minute, that's a bit different isn't it? There aren't any straight lines or perfect shapes, there's nothing in nature that is built for a single purpose. It's random, it's everywhere, we may have more than we need of it, maybe less.

Not to mention, we already know how plants come about -- they grow from seeds in the ground. I wonder, if pollen had human intelligence, would it theorize that the flower -- a natural occurence -- is evidence of a God?

Anyway, it is true that the earth serves the purpose of giving humans a home. But think about it, if all human creations just suddenly disappeared, how many people do you think would end up dead? A few million? A few billion? It's very nice and easy to call the earth the perfect habitat for a human when humans of the past have made survival such an easy thing for us. Surviving without human creations on the earth, is a very difficult thing indeed though.

What I'm getting at, is that nature is completely random. When a tree is planted, it could sprout up and be leaning toward any direction. In a million years there could be a mountain where I am sitting, or there could be a sea. I think the observable process of change in nature gives us a small glimpse into how it works, and possibly how our world was actually formed. Far from being comparable to a watch, if you ask me.

I don't think anyone is saying that the world is a watch, or even saying the world is like a watch. Nor is anyone saying the natural world has characteristics comparable to a watch. It's an analogy, not a comparison. I think you're looking too deeply into the story, because as with any analogy, take it too far and it inevitably breaks down. You've taken the analogy way too literally, I think.

My opinion, of course.

Regards, PA

The watch is an illusion. There is only eternity. Eternity has no beginning or end. If he possed any of these traits it wouldn't be eternity. No chicken or egg. Eternity is exempt from this notion. Eternity is beyond concept. Shame I only have concepts to explain this.

The watch is really an analogy of the temproal world in general, the world of time.

Still say the univers was created lastnight because of a shopping cart. Yeah I know.. my boytoy here says 15 minutes ago because of a lamp post. Well.. I used the shopping cart! It is the holy creation factor!

I'm not sure what you mean here.

No, I wasn't literally likening it to a watch a all. I was pointing out the aspects of a watch and what makes us realize it has a watchmaker, and pointing out that the world does not have these sorts of characteristics: straight lines, obvious purposes, etc.

Many won't lest they caught a post I made a while back about this.

Was it this one: Your post

there is a vast difference between something being infinite and it appearing infinite within the eyes of the observer.

eternity is not infinite. Imagine yourself travelling around a loop. As the observer (trapped within the subspace of the loop) your road ahead and behind would appear infinite. To an observer outside the loop-space, they would see your "infinite" is anything but.

eternity, Time without end, this seems to be there with the imaginary dietys and tooth fairys...

good explanation hyper....

Not trying to be rude at all brave, but you say things like these a lot.. do you always know what you even mean? It sounds very poetic to say there is only eternity, but what is eternity to you? If something is outside of description then how do you know it exists? What do you know as an apple? It's typically red or green on its skin, has an edible inside, somewhat circular, has a stem, a core and seeds. Those are the things that let you know that the apple exists. You can sense it. If eternity has no factors which can be descriped with concept than is eternity not an illusion?

I myself suppose that time is not a constant.. That it's ever-present but not passing at a fixed rate. I support the theory of relativity, that the speed with which we are constantly moving decides how time passes around us. Movement causes a curb in the space-time continuim, and time passes slower around us. For example, if you took two fast planes, had extremely precise clocks on them that could measure down to a very small value (synchronized) and flew them in opposite directions half-way around the earth, I believe they would end up with two slightly differing times, because one plane is fighting the natural movement of the earth and one plane is following it.

Oh man, you're good! And that analogy goes a long way to explain those carts with the wobbly wheel that like to pull to one side.

As for the watch analogy, one thing is certain, if you look on your wrist, or in your hand, at a watch, you see the watch. Certainly there had to be a watch maker, but without seeing them, or having a name, what you do have is the watch. While all else behind it's making, is subject to projections and speculation that would err to presume it takes a watch maker to make a watch.

That be the one. Though my hethen boyboy says it was a lamp post. Be we all know that the lamp post is a false post.. and the shopping cart is what really made the world. *snickers*

No I see infinity and eternity as the same.Though they can be used for specific differences in desciribing certain things, on the general scale they are the same. Eternity is infinite "time" Infinite cannot be reduced down to limited five sense vision. To view infinite one must not see a beginning or oend or middle. Eternity and infinite have this in common, everything that is relative is implaceable within them.

Also Infinity has to be eternal otherwise otherwise if it wasn't, that would imply infinity has a limitation and hence it couldnt be called infinite. Also eternal is infinite because we cant find any limitation with it. What limitation can be applied respectively to eternity? Where would the limitation be placeable in something eternal.

One may argue that something can exist forever in one respect and be be limited in another. Many religions for an example say that the soul is eternal (it lives forever) but isn't infinite (it has limitation as to its power). As a matter of opinion i reject this because if something is eternal that means it has no beginning and no end. If any of these two attributes are applied it ceases to be eternal. What has and end must have a beginning and what has a beginning also has an end.

If something has no beginning (like eternity) then how can place it in a finite concept to apply finite applications? This is why I say there is no chicken or egg argument. This argument is applicable only to the limiting (illusory reality) universe of the five senses. True reality includes the five senses but also transcends them.

What I mean is this. We must transcend how reality is relative to us and see it as it actually is. Any words, thoughts or concepts are inadequate to describe eternity or infinite because it transcends (as well as includes) all concept. So it is something that can be experienced but something that cannot be described except by using symbols. So any decription of eternity or infinite is going to be paradoxical based on the fact that there is a certian otherness.

It is like trying to describe what awareness is in itself. For an example if i asked you to describe what awareness is in itself without idenitfying with anything but the awareness, how would you? The best you could say is that "it just is". It is beyond all temporal qualities. So we can indicate that it is there but not at quality inparticular because it transcends all particulars.

Infinite is actually beyond the concept of infinite and finite.





There is only ever "Now". There is no past or future except an endless now. In one million years time it is still gonna have a "nownes"s to it. The "nowness" is inescapable. Even the "nowness" is an illusion because it is a concept based on the concept of past and present. And all concept is a construction of thought. When I say everything is an illusion, what i mean is that it exists but exists dependently on the indescribable reality transcending the "nowness" concept. Without that nothing else would exist. This transcendent principle is in all things, is all things and beyond all things.

Very paradoxical and abstract I know.

Wouldn't appear infinite after awhile because you would discover that it is a loop and loops are neither eternal or infinite. It wouldn't be eternal because you could mark a beginning (even if it was relative) and meet this beginning at the end. Hence it would be like a mouse wheel. A mouse wheel may have been spinning for eternity, but the mouse wheel itself isn;t eternal for the very reason that would would be able to detect form of beginning and end. True eternity has no beginning or end.

This is how I see both infinity and eternity as one.