I noticed a thread started by a non-christian seeking answers to his questions about the Bible which provoked an involved intra-faith debate on the Trinity using nothing but the Bible for reference, I decided to start a thread dedicated to the topic where only Bible references are used to either prove or disprove the theological concept called the Trinity.

No outside sources allowed. Scripture vs. Scripture only

For the record: I know of one Trinity--Father, Mother & Son. Only thing is Son and Father are one...oh well, I look forward to following this thread and your debates. Just please don't ask me to join in as I'm only interested in the words of Jesus.

Peace.

RadicalGnostic

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is God." Here in this verse a couple things should be noted. Jesus did not even allow a man to call him "good". He makes the point that none deserve this title except one and that is God. If Jesus were a co-equal part of the trinity then he certainly would have deserved the accolade.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)

Reading the rest of John chapter 1, it is clear that "the Word" here is referring to Jesus Christ. From this one line of scripture, it tells us that

1 - Jesus existed since the beginning
2 - Jesus was with God at this time, and
3 - Jesus was God

This passage is written within a text that also clearly states that there is only one God - the Lord. So we are left with a conundrum. Jesus was with God and was also God, yet there is only one God. So we have now two possible conclusions - either there are multiple Gods, or the relationship between the Father and the Word is so intertwined that they while being separate and distinct they are also inescapably one and the same. I for one lean towards the second of these conclusions, based on other passages of scripture that i haven't listed here at this time.

of course, this passage deals only with 2 of the 3 figures of the Christian God-head. The Holy Spirit also has its passages, but I'm on limited time right here, and only have time to give a cursory look at the Trinity. I'll post some more details at a later date.

Regards, PA

There is no textual backup for the Trinity it was coined at a much later date.

I think you will find The third member of the God family left out alot . like every letter Paul writes in his opening statement he says From God our Father AND the LORD JESUS CHRIST Romans 1 :7 1 st corth 1:3 ,Gal 1 :3
For some reason Paul never Mentions this supposedly 3d person.

In Galations the 4th chapter verse 6 Pauls says :

And because ye are Sons ,God hath sent forth the Spirit of the Son into our hearts crying Abba Father .

Would that not Make the Holy Spirit unemployed ? ephesians 3:4 That Christ may dwell in your hearts .,

Phillippians 1:19 For i know that this shall turn to my salvation ,through your prayer and the SUpply of the Spirit of JESUS CHRIST .

Jesus seems to Have enough to Do . He created the Earth Eph 3 verse 9 tells us this clearly , John one tells us this , Col 1 . Hebrews 1 .

In hebrews 1 God the Father and Jesus are haveing a converstion the Father is talking to The Son calling him God saying the Son created the Earth .

Whats the Holy Spirits Job? Christ seems to be a bit over worked compared to the Holy Spirit .

Christ Told them I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS : I WILL COME TO YOU !!! john 14:18

Christ is the comforter . The spirit of the Son is the Comforter .

Its a Family Of 2


People forget we are to become 1 as they Are one john 17;21 so will we become part of the trinity ?

Or part of the Family of God ? ROMANS 8 why you are in romans 8 ask yourself if Christ is the Holy Father ?

Or our Older Brother ? first born of many brethren in my bible .romans 8:29

Mark 13:19, "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be." Here Jesus is speaking prophetically, but he makes clear that God created the whole deal. Many erroneously think Jesus did.

Like the rules this author said i am not going to use any outside evidence.

The only thing i can say is that the reason christians believe in trinity is that because some verses of the bible say so. Now as a christian i would like to know if the bible i read is accurate or not. What about all the gospels that speak of only unity ie 1 God.

In order to analyse we have to see how bible came to be.

I don't know if this should be another thread, maybe someone can shed some light.

Are you a christian Mainpoint?

Some how I was under the impression you were muslim.

I am not christian. I have done reasearch on other religions than mine though. Like other people on this forum i am interested and intrigued by all religious mysteries not just mysteries of my religion. If you guys want i can still post as an outsider on this thread lol if not i wont. No hard feelings.

I wasn't implying you weren't welcome to post Mainpoint. But you have confused me with this statement of yours:

Jesus does not nor every had a last name. You cannot call Jesus Christ. He is called Jesus the Christ. Please put the work "THE" after Jesus. Thank you

LOL

Soooooo, since "christ" or "christos" means 'the annointed', we should call him:
Jesus the the annointed? <-----NOT a typo


I really do not see the revelance of your indignant post brothers. It like saying that we shouldn't say "queen Elizabeth" but rather "the queen Elizabeth"

You are quite right, this is the problem with greek syntax. The Hebrew or aramaic would alway supply the article "the". Hence, Yeshua-Ha-Maschiach=Joshua the Messiah.

John 5:19a,30a "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself..." "I can of mine own self do nothing..." Well here again are a couple more verses that reveal what Jesus said about himself. The premise of the trinity is that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are Co-equal and co-eternal. I guess Jesus was not a trinitarian, because if it were doctrinal how then could he say he could do nothing of himself?

John 20:17b "...I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." Jesus never claimed to be anything other than the Son of God. The words "God the Son" are not in any text of the bible.

Moondoggy Quoteing one scripture that really proves nothing (because in Hebrews 1 ,God the Father Calls Christ God and says clearly The son was the creator) Hebrews 1 proves your scripture wrong .

You quoted 1 scripture And ignored 5-6 that claim jesus was the creator . How could a Scripture be more plain then Ephesians 3:9 After reading that scripture how could you say Jesus was not the creator .

And to make all men see what is the fellowship ot the mystery ,which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God . Who created All things by JESUS CHRIST .

thats only one scripture .

Col 1 verses 15 - 20 clearly show christ was the creator . Christ even created the spirit world according to these scriptures.

John 1 : 10 clearly claims Christ was the creator


If you compare rev 1:8 with Rev 4 : 8-11 I think you will get a strong message once you accept Jesus Christ was the creator .

The bible clearly teaches Christ was the Creator . Even in Gen 1 LET US is a correct translation .


How could you make a statement Christ was not God when God the father says hes God in Hebrews 1 ?And if you put rev 1 and rev 4 together with the scriptures of Christ being the creator you soon relise the 24 elders in heaven are bowing before Christ Calling him God .

Nova Scotia, is it possible you could copy and paste the verses you quote? It would be easier to compare if I didn't have to keep flipping through my bible. I only have so many fingers.

Moondoggy can you answer with a scripture what spirit was in the old testament prophets?

Or how about who was the Rock Isreal followed out of eygpt?

Sorry, but John 1:10 the word for world doesn not mean the earth it means order and arrangement. Meaning the new covenant he brought. Colossians 1:15 states that he is the first born of all creation. So he did not do the creating. God did. The dominating noun in those verses is God and then in verse 18 it shifts to the son. Ephesian 3:9 is a trinitarian forgery and are not in the original text. the words "by Jesus Christ" are not in the text. I would trust what Jesus said over the difficulty of rendering context with other passages. Jesus Christ has a beginning and brought a new creation to mankind by the spirit of God once the work of redemption was done, this is what he created for mankind not the universe.

Acts 4:24b,27a, "Lord, thou art God, who hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that is in them." "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus whom thou hast anointed..." This is a prayer by the disciples and I posted part of it because of its length, but read the entire record. The prayer is addressed to God, not Jesus. Again, God is credited with the creation, not Jesus. In verse 27 we se Jesus is anointed by God and not himself. There are plenty more that I will post. So it is not just one record Nova.

Deuteronomy 11:29 "And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his Spirit upon them!" The Messiah is the subject of the scripture from Gen 3:15 on. But he did not show up until he was formed in Mary's womb. He like us were in God's logos, his foreknowledge.

Hebrews 3:1-3 "Wherefore holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus. Who was faithful to God that apponted him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses..." What do we see here? Jesus Christ is an Apostle and High Priest. God cannot do the office because the priest is the intercessor and always has been. And the next verse lables him as a man and not God.

Hebrews 7:24 "But this man because he continueth forever hath an unchangeable priesthood" Again he is called a man.

Hebrews 8:3, "For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; wherefore, it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer." Again he is called a man.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God." Again he is a man and note that he did not sit down on his own hand but God's.

God is not a man but is a Spirit according to John 4:24 John 1:18 states that no man has ever seen God, but many have seen Jesus Christ. These trinitarian formulas are what create the contradictions that the critics like to cite. Just read the scripture without preconception and you will see a different story. Jesus is the Christ, he is the Son of God, but he aint his own Pappy, sorry that is a ridiculous notion to even bring to the table.

*boldened relevant section*
I've never heard this before. would you be able to provide a citation or a source to back up this claim? Honestly, I'm not even sure what Ephesians 3:9 has to do with the Trinity at all. Maybe you got your bible-quote mixed up?

Sure, the ending part of Ephesians 3:9 has the words "by Jesus Christ". In my KJV. A good study bible should have it marked as not being in the critical greek texts. My reference to prove it does not belong in the text is the Interlinear Greek-English New testament by George Ricker Berry ISBN 0-310-21170-0 page 505. Nor does the Aramaic translation have this verse ending this way, it simply states "God created all things". The question Nova had was in reference to Jesus being the creator, hence if the trinity is a correct doctrine then it is a co-equal formula, I am saying that this is not the case, so it is relative to the thread.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligintly ,who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you .

searching what or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in them did signify when it testified before hand the sufferings of Christ and the glory which was to follow .

1st Peter : 1 ;10-11

1st Corthianians 10 :4 And they did all drink the same spiritual drink : for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them : and that Rock was Christ

Speaking of children of Isreal leaving eygpt . They Followed Christ out .

Who was king Davids Lord ? Did King Davids Lord have a Lord ?

let me throw one in here.... what about Matthew 1:18?

Sure, and I agree with this verse, but let's examine it. Almost 90% of the prophecies were about the Messiah, which explains this verse perfectly. It is a Messianic book. The Messianic spirit in them was the holy spirit. They prophesied concerning the Messiah that is what it means by the signification of the spirit of Christ in them. The old testament believer's were not born again because that came on the day of pentecost and has been here since. But we need to get back to the nature of the trinity as requested by the original poster.

Moon doggy I never heard of that scripture being added too before . I'll have to study it . the one with Jesus being the creator .


But clearly in col 1 its speaking of Christ .


And in John 1 it Says in the Beginning was the Word . Your trying to tell us in the begining there was no word . Complete twist of what the scripture is saying .

In order to steer this back to the nature of the trinity, the basis being three Gods in one. I will post this verse. 1 Tim. 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus." Seriously could it be any plainer?

moondoggy it tells you Christ spirit was in them ,the old testament prophets.

if the trinity is true that would make Jesus father the Holy spirit .


look in romans 8 as both the father and son have a spirit there . but its the son who leads a christian.

Matt 1:18

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Matt 1:20

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

moon doggy do you agree it was Christ that was the Rock that helped them out of eypgt like in 1st CORTH 10 :4?

or was that added too

In Rev. it also tells us the the life of prophecy is Jesus Christ. It is all about what was in their hearts to prophecy about. Jesus himself said that the holy spirit would not be given until he ascended. So, i disagree with your take on it. But how does this record bear witness to the subject of the trinity?

i'm no trinitarian you must know that .. they have not come out yet .




I got to go to bed going fishing tomorow so if i'm not on for a while don't think you scared me off lol .


we will finish this sometime soon .

I don't know how the trinitarians are going to explain 2 wills .

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet. I apologize if it has already been discussed.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Oh, thanks. My BIble doesn't even have "by Jesus Christ" in there (so thus no footnote), but now I see the trinitarian relevance assuming such a line was in there. I guess the translators left that out when translating. Not too shabby for a Bible translated by trinitarian thinkers......

Then you have a dandy one PA. Just so you know where I am coming from, not everything is a forgery, but there are about ten records that came into the later texts, and I think it is good that the printers are seeing this and are noting it and or translating it accordingly.

Enjoy the fishing my friend and I know Moses was to speak of the Rock which of course is Christ. I will have to study it more to comment.

It is a great verse, there is the Father, and there is the Son and there is the Holy Spirit (Ghost is old English for Spirit), but they are not the same. A point I would make in verse 18 is that if the son was co-eternal and co-equal as the trinitarian formula suggests, then why would all power have to be given to him, which suggests it was given to him by a more powerful being.

I just checked a few different translations, and of the ones I've looked at so far (ESV, NIV, NASB) so far, the KJV is the only translation to have added bit on Jesus Christ......

Just for fun PA match your other translations with the KJV with 1 John 5:7,8 and let me know what you think.

1 John 5 is not quite so edited out. That passage appears in all the Bibles that I know of. In every bible though it comes with a footnote to the effect that earlier manuscripts do not contain that verse. A Study Bible I was reading once even had a full page article opposite this verse discussing its questionable history. When I've heard sermons on this passage, the minister also has pointed out that it is most likely a later addition......

And yet......it's a book of complete truths hmmmm

im off to a slow start but i have to throw mine 2cents in on this one....


jeremiah 31:33...i will be their god..and they shall be my people.

isaiah 42:8....i am the lord that is my name and my glory will i not give to another neither my praise to graven images.

isaiah 43:11...i even i am the lord and beside me there is no saviour.

zechariah 14:9..and the lord shall be king over all the earth in that day shall there be 1 lord and his name 1..

matthew 1:21..and she shall bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS...for he shall save His People from their sins..

no trinity

ill say Jesus is god..manifested in the flesh..

Jesus was God in the Flesh but what was he Before he became Flesh ? I guess moondoggy is argueing he never existed before he came in the flesh . Do normal men come down from Heaven?

Did he exist Before he was flesh ?Did he exist before he was flesh as Flesh?

Does he exist now ? Is there Flesh in Heaven setting to the Right hand of the Father? Or is he No longer Flesh?


Maybe you trinitarians can explain a Little about who and what it means as jesus being the son of God ?


And moondoggy you never said if you agree with Paul about the rock that followed them(ancient isreal ) being Christ ?

And who was King Davids Lord?

And now OH FATHER,glorify thou me with thine ownself with the glory which I had with thee before the World Was John 17:5

might not be my place ...but.....

before he became flesh....he was the word...john 1:14 the word was made flesh

john 1:1 in the beginnning was the word and the word was with god and the word WAS GOD.

in old testament....right hand of god........is symoblic to power....

rev 1:8 i am alpha and omega the beginning and the ending saithe the lord which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty.

rev 1:17 fear not, i am the first i am the last....(18) i am he that liveth, and was dead, and behold I am alive forever more.

rev 4:2 behold, a throne was set in heaven, and 1 sat on the throne...(note not 2 thrones)

as for the flesh part...rev 1:7 states.....behold he cometh with clouods and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him...

might not be flesh as we appear.. but we will view him as such..according to the text..