This is mental torture!!! Talk about brainwashing young minds!!

JESUS CAMP

Yeah, I checked this out too and I have to say...even as a Christian, this freaked me out. Training for "God's Army?" Anyone else sense an aggressive muslim influence here? (NOTE: I DO NOT NOW NOR WOULD I EVER ASSUME ALL MUSLIMS TO BE AGGRESSIVE. Just pointing that out.) But I mean, to take BACK America for the Christians? If they recall, NO ONE took away America from the Christians...we WELCOMED freedom of religion. (If of course we are going back to discussing the Puritans and Quakers who were some of the "first" Christians here.) Granted, I'm all for making sure our rights as Christians remain established and untainted. But come on...this is too much...

The cant sounded more like they was in a cult. Those poor children.

I'd like to know the gross ticket sales at the end of this movies run at the box office. Not to mention the DVD sales later, if the "left behind" DVD series, is any indicator. This topic was discussed at length not long ago.


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=87234 I do admit I'd like to walk into their meeting, just to feel that energy. Course, that would mean I'd have to buy a little gold cross to wear, before hand. If their attitude is any indicator , else they might sniff out this Atheist and I'd never leave alive. Kill a heretic for jesus! Ok, where have I heard that anthem before!? If bringing back the Inquisition was on the 2008 ballot, evangelicals just might make it law. If one believes the statistics, 80% of the 2004 vote for George Bush was levied by christian evangelicals.

When they say "training to be God's Army" they don't mean that they're going to go and kill people that don't believe...They mean that they are his army in helping the world, in "reclaiming the land" and making it a better place. They want to fix the world, because they're right, it is a sick world, and when they say God's army, they mean being an army that is going to work to make the world a better place, not cause violence and hate.

Well of course not, I don't think anybody believes that.

But in order to be in "gods army" does one have to dawn a child in camoflague and war paint? Is christianity truly under fire that bad, that its followers must represent its oppression by iconic war images?

The lady speaking in the video is truly coaching these children. She says "Come now, lets pray in tongues." The holy spirit just doesn't enter the body on command like she is asking the children to do.

What you are seeing there is a cult, led by very sick adults. Mainstream Christianity does not use tactice like these. There is something very very wrong with these people.

I'm an Evangelical Christian, and while I maybe don't go to the extremes as some of the people in the film, I don't think my religon is "sick" or a cult. I didn't actually see anything thing in this clip that disturbed me...What is it thats so sick about it? I genrally want to know your opinion....

Oh and the bit where they were wearing (thats a confusing sentance!) war paint, they were dressed up in costume while they did a dance. What's wrong with that?

Not necessarily accurate to the Cult evangelical agenda, actually. They are very serious about making it physical and going to war with the enemy. That's why they have training camps that also teach them weapons and hand to hand combat skills, (even the children). The movie, "Jesus Camp" illustrates that well. One woman in the cult says that it's a fair and equal measure of defense, considering the Palestinians and other anti-christian zealots are training to kill them, it's only fair that christians train to survive on equal par.

There's even a video game , produced by the same organization that promotes the "Left Behind" DVD series. (Now in the clearance bin at most discount stores!:lol:) , called: "Eternal Forces". The object of the game is for the christian player/character, to approach people randomly on the street and ask them if they're heard about the "good news" and jesus. If the subject doesn't convert, they player kills them in any number of ways and is awarded points. It's a subconscious programming to desensitize the zealots , so that if/when, they real thing occurs, they are emboldened and numb to the viciousness, because they feel that , in real life, they are scoring points for their god. Terrorists for jesus!

How sad. Because what these psycho's don't realize, is as they promote that game to the youngest generations, to mutilate their innocence to the indoctrination of a vicious and callous terroristic offensive, they are actually making it possible for those children to die when they take that campaign to real life targets. Kill a child to save ones self from a terrorist on a mission for christ. How sick they don't realize, in that way, they are just like the zealot muslims that indoctrinate their babies by making them to believe it is an honor to want to grow up to die as a martyr.

I've never in my life met an Evangelical person who wants to kill non-believers....And I've seen the film, but I can't remember them mentioning training the kids to use weapons, what part of the film was that on?

I don't have a copy of the movie so as to find the marker for that piece, but besides the "Bush worship" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CgvgjfwyPs
remember Nazi Germany here and how people worshiped Hitler) , it was featured on one of those news exposé about the film. This is the trailer, which shows a piece that appears as if they're being trained in Escrima stick combat. I can not find the piece where they showed the kids in training. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE


The jesus camp is just one example of what is called an: "Aggressive christianity" campaign.

The stick training thing is like metaphor...There doing a dance using the sticks, that is meant to symbolise the fact that are at war for God...

As for the "worshipping" Bush, I can understand how that can look to some people...In the bible, it tells us to bless and pray for our leaders. They weren't worshipping him, they were praying for him.

Praying for him, worshiping an effigy. Or in this case a cardboard cut out.

This piece clarifies the part about training jesus camp children to be like unto the radical muslims ready to lay down their life for the zealot radical muslim cause. The closing remark is telling: "Excuse me, but we have the truth!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWhT2PtaD0w

Agreed. This is very disturbing and shows just how messed up religion has become. It has the same type of sinister undertones, as for example, a promotional video you would see documenting the 'Hitler Youth' or in more recent events Islamic extremists . One would hope this isn't the intention... Poor children.

That is terrifying. It is abuse of children and it is a disgrace. These are children who are not mature enough to make their own decision.

Quick edit Jesus camp Becky Fischer on Harry Potter. She is clearly insane.

These people go to more extremes then most other Evangelicals, but when she says that she wants them to "Lay thier lives down for the Gospel" I think she means that she wants them to be WILLING to die for God. She dosn't say that shes's going to send them at at war and basically kill them, they probably never will, but she wants them to be ready to die for God. I know if God came to me and said, "Are you willing to die for me, right at this moment?" I would most certainly say yes. She wants them to be ok with the idea of dying for God, she's not actually asking them to do it!

And Christians, like every other religon and even the people who don't have a religon, believe they have the truth...Thats why they call it your beliefs.

I agree. These kids are going to be severly emotionally scarred, I watched a few of these clips, those kids were terrified, i don't think they even have a concept of what they are being told to say. Isn't religion supposed to make you feel at peace with yourself and help and support you? Those kids were everything but at peace, they looked confused and scared and most of them were crying, is that what religion is about? there are also several clips or comments by people who had been to Jesus camp and most people seemed to be having trouble even talking about their experiences.....This is child abuse to me, that woman has serious psychological problems, she is paranoid and delusional, and should not be let anywhere near children, let alone run a camp for them. I havve no problem with people being religious or teaching their children to be religious but this is on a whole different scale, she is talking about building an army for god and is saying that we should go by the example of (muslim) terrorists who 'do the same'. This is very disturbing indeed.

That is child abuse. If your teaching children to be willing to die for faith you are abusing them. This is dangerous, sick and cruel, she is pschologically damaging those children.

Has it ever occured to you that some of these kids actually want to be a part of this? It's thier religon, afterall. What about that 12 year old boy? He didn't seem unhappy! In fact, most of these kids seem to be perfectly happy with how they're living thier lives...



It is not child abuse! They are teaching them to be dedicated to thier faith! I'm 12, and I've been willing to "give my life" in the name of God since I was around 5, and I certainly don't feel I've been abused!

They are children, they are mature enough to make a decision about this of there own accord. This is child abuse.

I can not see where your coming from this at all...I do not get how teaching a child about thier religon can be child abuse.

This is not teaching religion, there is a difference between teaching religion and teaching fundementalism. She is putting those children through mental ordeals they are not mentally developed enough to cope with, she is teaching intolerance, look at her comments regarding Harry Potter, they are extremist. This is dangerous and abusive. Teaching children that is ok to die for a belief (which could be wrong) is immoral and abusive.
This is not teaching, this is indoctrination.

fleur they have the land and look at how the relgious ideas have harmed us, global warming is a by product of that man is superior to nature, therefore nature is to be raped and pillaged, anything natural is denyed..2000 years of christianity is long enough to change things for the better..they have changed things but not for the better..... it sort of reminds me of knowing the risks of smoking it will only lead to one place ones demise yet many still do it, the are blind to the affects...Religiion is like this so many have not known anything else and many are groomed from children its their life, they are told they are chosen for this...Its brainwashing IMO ...I think its sad...

What like the kid at the beginning of the video clip being forced to put up his hand by presumably his mom?
The children crying when they are being told they have to be cleansed or go to hell?
How about all the video replies of people talking about their experiences or posts underneath the videos saying they were told they would go to hell if they did nto do certain things.
Quote: "All she was doing was trying to get the kids to cry and get them worked up to an emotional level....All they were saying was that the world is horrible and you are all going to die." From here
Kids crying and being terrified, ist that what you interprete as happy children?
As I said, I have no problem with people teaching their children about religion but this is not teaching, this is brainwashing.She even admits to it and says more people should indoctrinate their children in an interview!

I agree that her views on Harry Potter are extreme, but how does that mean that what she does is child abuse? And honestly, I don't see what's wrong with being so dedicated to your faith that you would be willing to give your life for it...If you don't mind me asking, but are you religous?

Feur are you a parent, few parents would say their kids want to be part of this ....Its the parents want the kids to be part of this...

it's not her views per se, she can believe whatever she wants, it is the emotional ordeal she puts the children through to make them accept her views as their own. As for me, no I'm religious but as I said, I don't have a problem with people being religious as long as they do not enforce it on me or in this case forcefully onto children who do not have a choice. After all if they do not comply they are told that they will go to hell

No I am not, but I do not care if others are, but I believe fundementalism is always dangerous. There are many videos relating to Becky Fischer and she admits to manipulation and indoctrination of these children. This is not teaching, it is enforcing, she is telling them they will go to hell if they are not pure.
Religion is never a good reason to die.

I believe they were crying because they felt guilty of thier sins...Your meant to be sorry for your sins.


How do you know those people were telling the truth? And it's not directly related to this really, is it?



I have to admit that that was a bit extreme but really...It's the truth. Or at least what they view as the truth, anyway.



They weren't crying because they were terrified...I believe they were crying for salvation at one point, but thats different to crying because of fear.

I go to a school that is very very religous, and my entire family are Evangelical, and though I have been taught the same things as the children in the film, I've never once felt that I'm being abused or being forced to believe something I don't want to.

But if they compley then they don't believe in what she is saying...Which means that they won't believe they're going to hell anyway.

What sins could those children have possibly commited that they were so severe that they had to cry about them? Most of the kids were barely 10! I don't believe children are able to even properly comprehend the concept of sin, they might know doing something is wrong but to properly understand sin and regretting your sins or salvation. I think that is beyond children of that age and they should not be terrified into doing something that they do not understand. I personally think continuously yelling at children that they will go to hell because they are unpure unless they cleanse themself is not going to feel them very good about themselves, and would be very scary if you were told as a little child if you are bad you will suffer eternal torment.
And how is people experiences with Jesus camp not related? these are people who were emotionally scarred by their experiences there, I think it is highly relevant. And I think the fact that this woman actually admitted to some of the aspects that these people were talking about makes me believe them, can you prove they are lying?
As I said before, difference between teaching and working children up to a point where they cry is a big difference. Even indoctrination works on different scales, there is subtle and there is pscyho-terror. Jesus camp qualifying as the latter.

These are young children, they are not mentally developed enough to cope with this stress and it will mentally scare them, there brains are not developed to be able to cope with such stress and it will harm them. This is dangerous and immoral.
Time Magazine Article on the documentary.

I don't think you realize that you are being abused because you are being brainwashed. Did your parents at any point in your life force you to go to Church? Even though you didn't feel like going that particular Sunday? My assumption would be yes. I see my aunts and uncles do it to their children. I'm glad that my mom turned out to be the bad sheep of the family. She hasn't believed in God since she was molested by her priest at age 7 and her parents refuse to believe it. Also they disown her because she does not believe in God, and they're just Lutherans! I don't want to think what an Evangelical family would be like.

Please explain? If they do what she says they don't believe they will be going to hell?
These are children, they will not see the difference between believing out of fear or truly believing, they believe if they do not believe what she says they go to hell, it is confusing for them and they are terrified because they can not grasp what is going on.

I meant to say if they dont compley...If they refuse to do what she says, it must be because they don't agree with it or don't believe it, so they won't think there going to hell for it...



So your basically saying my family are brainwashing and abusing me? Yes, I have to go to Church every single Sunday (unless I'm ill) even if I don't want to (Which I normaly do) It's like having a rule that your child tidys thier bedroom every Tuesday then you let them off because they don't want to do it..

So do you believe that ever Evangelical Family is brainwashing thier children? Isn't it possible that they just want thier child to see and understand the religon that means so much to them? Isn't it possible that they just want to save thier children from Hell?

Did you read the article I posted?
Should the children not be allowed to have some say rather than have an idea forced upon them when they are vunerable?

The point though is, that they do! They are scared and therefore they believe and would not think of NOT complying....
A question for you, would you think it was ok if schools started teaching evolution like this? Telling children they will suffer if they do not believe in evolution? Screaming at them to believe in natural selection or else?

Well, they don't have to what thier parents say...You can say "But they're told they'll go to Hell if they don't do as they say" but if they really didn't want to be a part of thier religon, they wouldn't believe it in anyway, so they wouldn't believe that they'd go to Hell for it.

And really, I'm a living example of the fact that most of these kids ARE happy with thier religon.

Actually, I was wondering if your parents were extremists. I'll take your word that they aren't. I apologize for assuming.
I would think that keeping a clean room is different from having faith in God. I think you would believe it is obviously more important.

No, I don't I was really just wondering if your parents were telling you to speak in tongues at Church.

There is a thing that my grandparents call "The Age of Credibility". It doesn't refer to a time in history, but a time in someone's life around the age of 10-13 where a child is now credible for the sins they commit. Before that time children are not fully accountable for their actions and are easily forgiven. I think that children should decide to be "saved" when they are accountable for their actions, right?

If they did that I would say that I believe what I believe and telling me something terrible is going to happen to me if I don't believe in evolution won't make a difference because I believe in my beliefs not theres. I expect other Christians would feel the same way.

Point is they are too young to see what other choices there are, most kids just think what the adults doing must be right and if they are told they will go to hell if they don't do as they say, they will believe it, it would be different if we were talking about people that have seen other choices, teenagers say, they will say well, no I do't agree, children under 10 most likely won't and I saw a lot of children on that tape that looked to be under 10 to me!
There are other ways of teaching children.Wouldn't this type of indoctrination give you a warped image of a religion that is supposed to be about a loving god? Because from what I have seen most of this is about fearing god.....
I am not saying you can not be happy with religion but were you ever reduced to tears and then screamed at that you will suffer in hell if you don't believe in god? And if yes, would you say it was a nice experience that you would wish upon others?

If they did that I would say that I believe what I believe and telling me something terrible is going to happen to me if I don't believe in evolution won't make a difference because I believe in my beliefs not theres. I expect other Christians would feel the same way.

Point is they are too young to see what other choices there are, most kids just think what the adults doing must be right and if they are told they will go to hell if they don't do as they say, they will believe it, it would be different if we were talking about people that have seen other choices, teenagers say, they will say well, no I do't agree, children under 10 most likely won't and I saw a lot of children on that tape that looked to be under 10 to me!
There are other ways of teaching children.Wouldn't this type of indoctrination give you a warped image of a religion that is supposed to be about a loving god? Because from what I have seen most of this is about fearing god.....
I am not saying you can not be happy with religion but were you ever reduced to tears and then screamed at that you will suffer in hell if you don't believe in god? And if yes, would you say it was a nice experience that you would wish upon others?

No, what I am saying is what would you say if children at a young age, say 6 were indoctrinated at school like that WITHOUT being given a choice, without knowing about the choices, without knowing Christianity existed, would you think that is ok? Would you think it would be acceptable to teach children like that?

I have actually spoke in tongues at Church before...But not because I'm being forced to.

Really you should be sorry from your sins from as soon as your old enough to go to school really...My Church dosn't allow you to be "confirmed" until your 13. But that dosn't mean children shouldn't think about thier sins before then.



Like I said, I've grown up with this religon and it hasn't gave me a "warped" view of it. Like I said before, they weren't crying because they were scared of God, but because they were ashamed of thier sin.

No, it isn't ok, and I know that now your going to say that the people in the video are doing the exact same thing, but there not, there just saying you have to forgive your sins or your going to hell....There not say, "If you don't believe in Creation, then your going straight to Hell, and theres nothing you can do about it!" As long as everybody is sorry about thier sins (even non-believers) then they will not be sent to Hell....Saying they'll go to Hell for not believing is completely different, were in the film are the kids told that?

Sorry in advance, but didn't you say you were 12? If so, you have not "grown up". I'm seem to be convinced that your religion has given you so much bias in it's behalf that you can't even get why we think this "Jesus Camp" is brainwashing children.

Yes but I've asked you before and I will ask again: Were you ever reduced to tears and then screamed at that you will suffer in hell if you don't believe in god? And if yes, would you say it was a nice experience that you would wish upon others?
And I ask again what sins? What horrible sins could children at that age possibly have commited and if they sinned to some extent, shouldn't you talk them through why it is wrong rather than screaming at them about fearing god? It's called positive reinforcement. Screaming is negative reinforcment which has been shown to be damaging and not as effective as positive reinforcment.As I said before, these children probably do not even quite understand the concept of sin and salvation.
I am not saying growing up with religion gives you a warped view of it, I'm saying being indoctrinated that if you do not believe you will go to hell you might believe for the wrong reasons.

No, it is exactly what they are doing in the video, whether they are being told that they will go to hell if they do not regret their sins rather than believe is not that relevant in the end, although I am sure at some point someone said that, or at least in one of the comments a kid that used to go to these camps was told that if she did not believe in creationism she was sinful and would go to hell if she did not change her attitude. As you said, people can be non religious and still have morals, there is no need for such methods and again, positive reinforcement is much more effective and not half as damaging.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't ALL Christianity say "If you do not believe that Jesus is the only son of GOD, then you will surely go to Hell." And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hell made out to be frightening? I personally think that Hell is a threat made by the Church to scare uneducated children into believing that God is the ONLY way to be saved.