Let me put the shoe on the other foot.

Prior to 1994, skeptics claimed that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident despite facts to the contrary. In 1994, after the Air Force said that no weather balloon was responsible, the skeptics then claimed that a Mogul balloon train #4 was responsible even though records proved that balloon never flew. In 1997, the skeptics were taken to the cleaners by the Air Force again regarding events during the 1950's to explain an incident in 1947. The skeptics claimed that temperature inversion was responsible for the 1952 incidents over Washington D.C. even though scientific facts proved otherwise.

Skeptics claimed that a planet was reponsible for the JAL encounter even though the planet was in the opposite side of the sky from the real UFO, not to mention the UFO was also tracked on the weather radar of the B-747 and ground-based radar systems of the FAA and that of the Air Force, which should have told the skeptics right there the UFO in question could not have been a planet but the skeptics wouldn't accept that fact until later. The skeptics finally admitted that a planet wasn't responsible so they changed their explanation to that of ice clouds but meteorological conditions excluded ice clouds as well.

I could list many more such missteps of UFO skeptics, some very comical, to make a point, so I think you need to be a little bit careful next time.

I've heard this enough times that it's actually getting seriously "old".

I am all for imagination and the exploration of science fiction to make it fiction. Heck we are working on Transporter technology. Version .0001a, but it's a start. We have medical 'Tricorders' and ion engines and so on working and/or in the works.

So what? What does this have to do with "claims of Aliens visiting Terraferma"?? Are you suggesting: These claims are IMAGINATION at work and we need to be open to this form of IMAGINATION??

Look I’m all for IMAGINATION – but this is a field, or should I say, WAS a field looking at and for FACTS not FICTION. There is a line of imagination/fiction and reality. This is one of those lines where IMAGINATION makes for great reading, great stories and all. But this is one of those areas that HAS TO BE BALANCED WITH FACTS - NOT --> IMAGINATION, when we are trying to find FACTS ..> NOT <... FICTION. We are trying to learn, understand as is possible the realities and the presented “truth” - "are aliens or have aliens visited Planet Earth?"

Some Facts:

Universe is Super Big. I Googled the other night: How Many Known Galaxies are there? Several sited sites stated: 300 MILLION and COUNTING! Each of these Galaxies are MILLIONS of LIGHT YEARS apart.

Then we have the MILKYWAY. One of the nearest stars from SOL is 4.33 LY away. This means if Traveling at the Speed of Light it takes just OVER 4 years to get here, meaning less speed would take longer and faster, well NOT quite so long.

Now one of the more clear bogus claims of a race called the Paleidians I find more then just curious: That STAR CLUSTER is 400+/- LY's away. Meaning if they could travel at the speed of light - it would take 400 LY to get here. Slowe a whole lot longer - faster, well there in lies the challenge! Can a race of beings have FTL?? Yes: Then where is the proof? Not imagination, not 2nd hand stories, not "channel sci-fi" ----> FACTS!

What facts do we have:
A - That they are from there? - Where is the proof? Not imagination ---> PROOF.
B - That they have FTL technology? -- Not Imagination ...>> PROOF.
C - That some how there is life around Blue Stars. <- Yes that means something very significant.
(Extreme heat and Radiation, not to mention the stars are TOO YOUNG to have planets yet.) Hmm... so how did they pull that off?? See the skeptic asks the "hard questions" that NEED Serious and REAL answers. Not imagination, NOT Fiction, but FACTS.  Because that is what we need......

Now see imagination is fun - it makes for a GREAT SCI-FI STORY. But now where are the FACTS to the answers of those questions?? See that is what the SKEPTIC asks - FACTS.

Heck I've even helped take some Fictional Technology to the blackboard to see if it would/could work. So again I'm not against IMAGINATION - but it does have to be tempered w/reality. To know when to say, "right now - this doesn't work." or "the math isn't there".

This SKEPTIC tries to bring logical and rational balance – of where facts are mixed up or confused with FICTION. Serious investigation attention to FACTS not FICTION.

The issue at hand is the contrast between ET non-existence and "I just don't know." That's a pretty big leap in an inversely proportional manner if you ask me. In recent times I have noticed an increasing emphasis in correlation between the ego of the promoter and the methodology of their opinionated "critical and analytical thinking" approach than with the evidence to substantiate their point of view -- I mean that for both extremist sides of the UFO debate.

For progress to be made in a respectable scientific debate, a commonality must be agreed upon. It must first be established that there is substance to the reports. Just what the implications and interpretations of the analyzed UFO evidence suggests should be that which is debated through facts rather than personal opinions and egotistical ad hominem attacks on the investigative analyst suggesting a specific determination.

It is arrogant and biased to proclaim an absense of evidence. At this point there can be no doubt that there is evidence accompanying the phenomenon. Just what this evidence constitutes is another question entirely, however. This aformentioned evidence is awaiting further clarification that is not forthcoming -- the result of the lack of acceptance and outright unjustifiable denial by the scientific community.

With "I don't know..." is fine. No one who has any Critical Analytical Reasoning Skills would debate this.

Is life out there in the stars: I don't know - do you? The probablity and chance is seriously there. Even the possiblity of a totally different life form. But the FACTS are: We do not know. (Not for lack of looking.....) But then we take this, "I do not know if life is out there..." and some JUMP to "they" have visited or are visiting Planet Terraferma. So how did we take/make the Leap from: "I do not know..." to "KNOWING??" I mean - it's being presented as FACT when in all honesty - there simply are no facts at all to make it so.

When we, the skeptics point this one FACT out - we are called all sorts of names: Debunker, Skeptic, Non-Believer and so on. But is that fair? I mean we ask the age old question to ANY AND ALL claims of extrodianary nature: - Do you have proof?? - From the world is ROUND, to Man can fly, to any claim - Proof IS expected.

So now where does this put us??? The "believer" has none, no proof no evidence no facts. So what are we suppose to except and believe??

I find it just as curious that a lot (not all) in the believer camp, with no emotions dis-miss the Earth Based possiblity of these UFO's. They just 'write it off' - with flip answers like, "We do not have this kind of technology." -to- "thus it has to be alien." There is a flaw w/this 'logic'.

Does the one making the claims seriously know the technology being worked on behind Area 51? Wright Patterson?? Pentagon?? heck even up here on Whibey Island Naval base?? The answer is, "NO" if one is seriously honest about it. This is where we, the skeptics have issues. The practical is dismissed with "fuzzy logic" and we are expected to "JUMP" to the "Alien". WHY?? Why is it the "Believer" will not give to the more likely answer of Earth Based?? Why do all of these UFO's have to be "ALIEN"????

A. No evidence of life out there. It is speculated and theorized of the strong probablity. But as of yet there is NO evidence and NOT FOR LACK OF LOOKING! So the "Alien Life" is a assumed at best, if we are honest. We, as you have said, "We simply do not know."
B. Then we give this first assumption then an assumed FTL, technology - when NO SUCH EVIDENCE exists. It is an assumed 'fact'.

.... So right here we have to assumptions given a 'billing' as 'fact'. By more than just a few. But an assumption is still just that. It is NOT based on FACTS or EVIDENCE. Speculation pure and simple.

So where is the 'ground' or better the foundaiton of what and where we should meet? Esepcially when too many believers will not 'give' to the possiblity of Earth Based.

I was asking my military bud about the G-Force of the objects that have been mentioned. His answers was rather simple and well true: "Jj - Computer controlled devices have no concerns w/G-Forces." Very true statement. From frisbee size devices to Ultra-lite size devices to larger - a lot of these technologies are controlled by COMPUTERS. G-Force NOT an issue. Only if a human is on board.

Plus this one FACT -> YES FACT, seems to consistantly get brushed away: We've been working on Zero G technology since: 1920's. When you apply Tesla and other technologies here and there that just sort of 'vanished' - well where do you think they went?? Do you think they are like: The Ark of the Covenant from Indiana Jones: Radiers of the Lost Ark?? Seriously do you not honestly think they have been working w/them???

So tell me where the common ground is. Work first for the logical/practical answers - or just JUMP to "Aliens" when that is assumed, not proven?

Jj

for a civilization thats had limited technology for about 60 years...you guys sure "know it all"...your grandad rode a horse as a boy...we dont know jack about the universe...

You’re kidding right? These people drew a man in a box that hand knobs buttons and fire spiting out the back. They thought of this how, they had fuel that they knew could transport them so they put two and two together? No I don’t say that those drawing look like a ET because it’s what I think they look like because I’m not talking about ETs. I’m talking about space suits helmets full body suits that protected the wearer. some thing these people would know nothing about so could never imagine.

You are confusing my thinking with yours you assume they could think this up because you can. The facts of the matter are that the only reason why you can think about space travel is because we have the technology to space travel. The reason why we went to the a moon is because we had the technology to look threw a device and see the moon as a surface that could be stepped on and a space that could be traveled.

These people had no way to know that they could travel in to space. they had no way to know the moon was a mass just like earth that could be stepped upon. Thus they had no way to know you could create a fuel that could be used in a space craft that could make its way in to space. So unless they saw some one or thing doing some space travil then NO they couldn’t imagine it.

Ah, that's it!

We don't know jack about the Universe.
You're right!

We also don't know jack about alien life, or whether alien spacecraft have ever been here, or are here. Nothing at all.

...we've been saying that all along.

The case would now seem to be closed, by you!

Well done.

That is what skeptics tend to say but they fail to answer the question if these UFOs are ours or theirs (ET).

Account at Ben****ers:
The four events at Ben****ers GCA (see map for plots of these radar tracks) took this order:

At 21:30Z a URE (No.1 in map) was picked up on the Ben****ers AN/MPN-11A GCA radar about 25-30 mi. to the ESE. (Note that Z time - zero meridian time -, or GMT, is also local time in the Lakenheath-Ben****ers area.) This URE moved steadily on a constant azimuth heading of 295 deg until contact was lost about 15-20 mi. to the WNW of Ben****ers. The radar operator estimated the apparent speed of the URE as 4,000 mph; but the transit time of 30 sec yields an estimate of 4,800-6,000 mph, and the operator's estimate of 5-6 mi. covered by the URE between PPI sweeps (2 sec apart) gives an estimate of 9,000-10,800 mph. "The size of the blip when picked up was that of a normal aircraft target. [It] diminished in size and intensity to the vanishing point before crossing the entire radar screen."

http://www.ufologie.net/htm/ben****ers56thayer.htm


Let's take a closer look. The Air Force issued orders for its pilots to shoot down flying saucers. There are scientist and engineers, military and intelligence officials, cosmonauts and astronauts who have stated on the public record that some UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles. NORAD has tracked UFOs flying in from deep space according to engineers at Aerojet, the company that builds DSP satellites for NORAD. J. Allen Hynek was a hardcore UFO skeptic until he began his own investigation, which changed his personal view on UFOs forever and the list goes on and on.



Actually, there is no flaw in such logic when all of the data evidence are taken into consideration. The laws of physic would have to be rewritten to make the UFOs what they claim they want them to be; "natural phenomena or secret aircraft." The UFOs in question have been proven as artificial flying objects exhibiting technology that were unknown in our science books. That is why we are still flying in our skies using jet propulsion and old piston engine technology for air travel yet UFOs have shown their propulsion systems are far superior than those of mankind.



Have we (mankind) solved the problem of eliminating sonic booms yet? If not, then there is a problem, and no small one at that. Apparently, there are artificial UFOs that have already solved that problem long before the Concorde first took to the skies. The proof lies in the fact that these UFOs fly at hypersonic speeds within the atmosphere yet produce no sonic booms as recorded. Going back before that aircraft first flew, one of the problems with supersonic air transportation was the fact that mankind had not solved the sonic boom problem associated with supersonic flight.

Ask him what saucer-shaped craft mankind has that is 100 meters in diameter or larger capable of 40+ Gs maneuvers and hypersnic speeds within earth's atmosphere without producing sonic booms? Ask him if we had such flyng vehicles capable of hypersonic flight and exhibiting advanced maneuvering characteristics in 1952 before we flew our first supersonic jet fighter, the F-100.



Actually, it is an issue. Did we have such devices in 1952 capable of velocities of over 7000 mph and not produce a sonic boom? If the answer is no, then you have yet another problem and no small at that either.

I saw that on tv. They were talking about if we invented some tesla laser thing and if the ufo was running away from it. I dont think its real.

Limited -
A. Get back on your meds, quickly please.
B. Supply just one piece of court room evidence of your claims.
C. If you are working on a Sci-Fi book/story/plot - fine, just fess up and quit the "cloak and Dagger" for it is seen as a joke.

See here is the problem w/your whole claim and story -
No evidence,
No proof,
No Validation, - this is not a good foundation -
You have nothing at all except lame excuses of "Cloaking technology" which you cannot even prove that exist. Saying, "Well you don't see them do you...?" Is so not "proof" - it's juat a lame a... excuse to avoid the admission you do NOT know JACK about the Universe, let alone our own Solar System let alone what you are talking about. This is seriously getting SAD.

So please either get real or go into "cloak mode"....

Ice particles?

STS-51

http://www.artgomperz.com/videoclips/sts51a.avi


STS-37

http://www.ufocasebook.com/nasa/NASA10s.jpg


STS-51

http://www.edicolaweb.net/nonsoloufo/sts51a0e.htm


STS-80

http://www.artgomperz.com/videoclips/sts80.mpeg

I've never heard of the Iranian UFO incident. So, I have no idea what avionics equipment you are talking about. I was an ECM guy in the US Air Force who worked on F-4E's and F-4G's, the Phantom you are talking about. If you give me more info on the story, I might be able to expand on the malfunction and supposed repair. There's a lot of times a pilot would write up malfunctions that would not replicate on the ground. The F-4G is tightly packed with a lot of equipment and is notorious for having many wires shorted, grounded, or having cable connectors come apart or even get fused together. I wouldn't be suprised if some piece of avionics did malfunction and then continue to work at a later time on the same mission. If it was an ECM pod, then I doubt a malfunction would have started functioning again. I need more detail to give a better explanation.

BTW, I don't buy the ice crystal explanation either. One video definitely showed one of those objects going through a cloud and still made that sharp turn and accelerated. That was definitely not an ice crystal.

This one is almost certainly a drop of water (condensation) on the flight deck window through which the camera is shooting. Very similar to this photo I shot a few days ago:


I posted about this earlier in the thread, but it got buried pretty quickly. See here for more details.


And yes, I do believe that this STS-80 clip is showing a drifting, out-of-focus debris particle near the orbiter. It lights up as it passes out of the orbiter's shadow into sunlight. Is there any evidence here for rejecting a simple explanation such as this in favor of something more extraordinary, such as an extraterrestrial spacecraft?

Just an FYI for everyone. Please do not direct questions or comments towards the OP (Snozzberry) as he is no longer going to be able to post at this forum due to his constant rude and uncivil behavior after many many specific warnings. I generally would close the thread of a suspended person as they are no longer able to respond, but as this thread has continued in a relatively civil manner(aside from the medication comments; please stop that) I have decided to just leave it open and let everyone know that snozzberry will not be back.

I never believed the maneuvering objects were ice particles. Here are the specifics of the Iranian UFO encounter, which was also tracked by one of NORAD's DSP satellites. I had a video of interviews with the Iranians involved and it provided further details on that large UFO not written into the official documents but it is no longer working.

1976 IRANIAN UFO ENCOUNTER

"The plane sped toward the large, bright unknown which lay some 70 miles north of them. About half way there, the plane began to experience communication problems. Instrumentation was also faulty, so the pilot dropped off course, heading back to Shahrokhi. As the F-4 changed course, instrumentation and communication was suddenly restored."

"Another F-4 left the air base, attempting to identify the UFO. As the second jet approached the UFO, they made radar contact. Crew members stated that the size of the radar return was similar to that of a 707 jet. The actual size of the object was impossible to determine visually because of the brilliance of the glowing object. The jet drew nearer to the UFO."

"For a time, the F-4 bridged the distance between itself and the UFO, but even flying above Mach 1, the UFO suddenly shot away from the F-4. This incredible burst of speed was confirmed by the plane's radar and also visually. The pilot of the F-4 was not able to gain any ground on the UFO, but managed to pace it as they sped through the skies."

"The crew of the plane would later say that the UFO had strobing lights arranged rectangularly. The lights alternated from red, blue, green, and orange in color. The plane's crew was astonished to see another, smaller object emerge from the large UFO. The plane and UFO were now flying south of Tehran. The smaller object made a bee line to the F-4 moving at incredible speeds."

"Fearing for their very lives, the pilot aimed an AIM-9 missile at the approaching object, but just as he did, the weapons control panel went off line, and he lost all communication. The only course of action left was to dive to try to avoid a collision with the approaching UFO or weapon. The approaching object followed the plane into its dive briefly, but then tailed off, and returned to the larger UFO. All functions were again on line as the UFO left the jet behind."

http://www.ufocasebook.com/tehraniran.html

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case200.htm

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00017.pdf

http://www.fufor.com/case760919.htm

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00006.pdf

Thanks for the info skyeagle.

According to the reports, looks like both F-4's and a civilian airliner had electrical problems around the same area. The only part that points to an exterestrial intelligence is that the second F-4 lost their instrumentation and communications when they were about to fire at the object. I guess a controller at the Mehrabad tower said years later after the incident that the object flew over the towers and knocked out their electronic equipment too. It's an interesting story that three aircraft and a tower had electrical problems because of the object.

What's also interesting is that after this happened Henry Kissinger tried to prevent or hamper any more research into this encounter. Henry Kissinger sure does find his way into a lot of conspiracies.

*snigger* THAT was funny!!

Off to click link....

Hardly hoaxes, just i highly doubt not alien life.

There are tones of unidentified flying objects floating around in space. And we all know how looking at things at a odd angle can completely change the way they look.

Anyone else notice how they really resemble living water organisms in their movement?

looks to me like space debris, also space debris can move like that when interfered with by other means of gravity, and everything in space gives off gravity, so some of the things move weirdly because of the space shuttle/station and the earth.

I hear alot of bickering and fussing going on, but any serious discussion going on? Especially about the 2 parts of the video I pointed out?

I can put the USAF and NASA at a landing site. in western palm beach county fla...may 15th year 2000 ....call them and ask them if they didnt survey 2 triangular ufo landing sites...in secret they've called it the best proof ever....and please refrain from your flaming..im not sure what or who you are?...see funboy I gave them the proof!..they chose to cover it up....thats were we are at..in a cover-up....

It would take forever to search all the possible UFO sites for info on everything claimed here and on other forums.

Thanks for the info sky.

Jjbreen is usually a good skeptic. I've just seen him act a bit synical lately.

Jjbreen is usually a good skeptic. I've just seen him act a bit synical lately.

jjbreen might not be what he seems...when you get as emotional about covering the truth as he is...sometimes theres other motives...

Other motives...you darn better believe it.....



Now that is wisdom talking there.

Oh and jjbreen I have no other place to explain where my comment on the skeptic mind came from other than my own mind. I thought it up on my own. I suppose when you were refering to hearing it before you were talking about imagination being necessary for science.

Because that is what I suggested...that your holy science is spurned by imagination. I have no idea how you drew other conclusions from my statements. Imagination isn't necessary to concieve what is (like aliens) but its paramount for creating tools like science. Its only a tool...and an over rated one at that.

And how will you back this up?

Henry Kissinger supported the conclusions of the Condon report and suggested that what the witnesses saw during the Iranian encounter was a meteor or a satellite, despite the series of events between the UFOs and the F-4s and the fact another aircraft was affected along with the equpment at the airport as the UFO flew overhead. I believe that Kissinger was trying to cover-up this incident along with UFO debunker, Phil Klass.

Iranian officials pointed their fingers at ET and made it known publically.

Ya, I'm sorry. ZoD I actually took what you said and went and talked w/a good friend of mine. Told him what was going on and he just laughed.
"Jj - I'm surprised it took this long!" Once again being reminded of 'where I am coming from', which I posted earlier on another thread. I >HAVE< to deal with FACTS in my daily life. Assumptions, Speculations and such are not 'allowed' in the final 'chapter'. It is FACTS, period.
My friend pointed out a few of things:
A. This field is based on A LOT of speculations, in the end 'product': aka a CLAIM.
B. There are LITTLE to NO FACTS involved in the Alien theory of UFO's.
C. There are NO small emotions in this area. ("You told me that one, Jj") - Ya, I did - guess I'm showing them now too.... LOL!

Then to add to that - over the past couple of months I have noticed w/certain threads a sense of Critical Analytical Reasoning Skills starting to be, well pushed aside. (I also noted that it is NOT just me that sees this. Several others have made the same pointed observation.)

Then I see the so called "believers" getting more "ON" the Skeptics then those "other believers" that make such outlandish claims, that are more then just a serious problem in the "believers camp". I find this curious that the "Believer" does not persue these 'other believers' w/equal or greater 'effort', for actually causing more 'damage' to the 'cause' then the 'skeptics' do.


I did post this on another thread - but for reminder or new insight:


So basically when I see stuff "slide" in dialogs here that would be so shot down in any other field, pass here: Yes I get frustrated - because I see what would happen 'in the real world' - the 'world that I live and work in'.

I wonder sometimes to the maybe a strong point of frustration - R We Looking for the truth or for A TRUTH?? There is a SERIOUSLY BIG DIFFERENCE!!

I will do my best to 'tone down the synical side - I will do my best. ZoD, when you see me 'cross the line' again - PM me and kick me the butt, as a 'gentle reminder'...

There is one thing that seriously 'gets my goat' recently - UFO -vs- AFO (alien flying objects) - As I have stated a good many times now - UFO's are NOT the question w/us "Skeptics" - It really isn't --> THEY DO AND WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST! It's when we are 'challenged because we do not believe in UFO's' - when the question isn't about UFO's but AFO's.

Jj -

Phew - i think I feel better... LOL! Tme for a beer. Can I come out of my "Time Out Corner" now????

Limited - quiet, please. You'll blow my cover!!
I work for a "BO" division of the NSA. The aliens orbiting our planet "cloaked". We've managed to get some technology from another alien group, that allows us to monitor these cloaked ships. Reason is --> We've found very serious news that they are NOT here in "peace".

They are implimenting a 'new phase' of 'taking over the planet'. We've started to notice that they are taking a stronger 'spiritual' tacktic w/the people of earth. If they can have a serious cause/effect on the people's spiritual life - they can then manipulate them into doing anything they want - by making it sound "spiritual". Talk about a serious violation of the Galatic Directive of NON-Interferance! Effecting the spiritual beliefs and lives of a people on another planet is about as serious a violation as there can be....

Jj - Shhh....

This message will self-distruct in 30 seconds.

True, no written facts or anything of that sort... just sightings of unidentified flying objects. I don't have all the facts, but I still hold faith towards extraterrestrials visiting our planet.

I'm interested to know, Jj.. do you actually believe the ETs have visited this planet before, and still continue to do this? Is something really going on, or is it just mass media creating this big fad about extraterrestrials visiting Earth?

I have faith, but even I have skeptical thoughts in some areas. Don't you find it a little odd how even militants can't explain objects seen in the air? Or, air traffic controllers recording object moving at speeds of 2,000 - 3,000 km/h?

I see this as well.


Some of the attempts to redefine what constitutes definitive evidence tend to frustrate me. This kind of thing really would not be tolerated very well in the "real world" I live and work in either.



Bingo! Also, scientific analysis doesn't deal with the ultimate *truth*... science deals with empirical evidence.

You are welcome! Unfortunately the link to the video interview with government officials is no longer working.

Jj,

I understand where your coming from.

Part of the problem is that there will always be someone out-there who's going to be spouting off nonsense about "Xenoids" from the Andromeda Galaxy! These people will always be around and always have been around. Some people have false memories, some have convinced themselves that some nonsense is true, others have legitimate mental conditions like schizophrenia. There is nothing you can do about them.

Where well intentioned people go wrong is to assume that since these people are spouting off nonsense/fantasy that the ETH is also nonsense and has no supporting evidence. The tendency to see a very complex and complicated Scientific mystery in terms of Black and White. i.e. "I can't possibly support the ideas of the 'Crazies' so all UAP must be prosaic in nature."

Often the idea that one side is "Crazy" and lacks critical thinking can prevent people from even looking into the subject in-depth. Then you end up with many people who are intelligent that assume their position on the subject is accurate when they themselves have not really looked at the subject, who are not familiar with the empirical evidence that they claim they are waiting to see.

The latter group of people are really the only group that is worth any time or effort reaching out to.

Just because UFO's aren't aliens doesn't mean that seeing them is any less extraordinary. It's unexplained phenomina that should be looked further into. An earlier post suggests that the supposed space junk is making sudden turns because of the many sources of gravity in space from the space shuttle etc...

Well if those particular ufo's could be explained so easily then Nasa would have at least mentioned that by now to adhere to there
N(never)
A(a)
S(Straight)
A(answer)
Policy

Those blobs of light that move around up there are amazing. If that is space junk then what is happening to it for it to be acting like that. Some thinkers here seem to stop and only look at the ufo's as aliens or not and if not then the ufo is nothing interesting. More attention should be directed at ufo's as unexplained phenomina regardless if they are aliens or not.

Ours, or theirs?

See I wouldn't agree with that statement because the ETH can not be discounted at this point. There is nothing to discount the ETH but there is good reason to suspect it may be correct.

The way I would say what you said and agree with it would be to say, " Just because the direct cause of UAP has not been conclusively determined that does not mean that UAP are any less extraordinary."





That I completely agree with. In fact real Science is moving forward even if most people are not aware of it yet. It's been shown in Hessdalen for instance that UAP exist in the atmosphere and exhibit physical qualities that currently can't be explained by known physics. As you can imagine this is all extremely interesting to the Scientist involved who are moving forward with their work.

DISCLAIMER:
The post below is addressing AFO – “Alien Flying Objects”. It is >NOT< addressing the general topic of UFO – UN-identified Flying Objects. I will not be addressing: Do UFO’s exist? The answer is a clear and resounding: YES. But that means UN-identified, meaning we do NOT know what it is, thus we cannot claim it to be “alien” because => WE DO NOT KNOW. It’s UN-identified. Thank you for your understanding… ALSO - Sorry for the length, you got me thinking even more....



Ok, let me ask you a question – as, I’ll answer yours below:
Why do you hold “FAITH” in this?? Specifically please.

-> To ALL:
I have found this ever so curious, that this is a no small growing “FAITH”. But back when this whole “UFO” thing started, it wasn’t based on “Faith” or “Belief” or other ‘metaphysical’ terms. It was based on EVIDENCE, FACTS, PROOF – OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE, not Subjective. So why the ‘bend’ to the Subjective and ‘need to believe’, even when the evidence is pretty clear – well there simply is none. Why do so many seem to even refuse to look into the strong probability that these UFO’s w/their “unique’ flying capabilities could be MAN MADE?? Why do we refuse to even look or entertain the possibility? Especially when the “alien” is???

Why do we have such “high faith” in Aliens having this supposed technology – but, “nope, not man”??

Well, you are asking a number of questions here. So let me address them one at a time.

A. Do I think there could be “LIFE OUT THERE IN THE STARS”?
… ANSWER: Yes I actually do accept this possibility.

B. Do I think we’ve been ‘visited’?
… Answer: The “Jury is still out”, but right now I do not see the evidence to support it. Belief is not evidence. Faith is not evidence. There simply is nothing to support this, at this time.

Some things to think about:

I have seen, read and heard too many scams, hoaxes and con’s. All of these done for various reasons: Desperation to “prove they are here”. To, “let’s make “them” look stupid.” To, “can I pull this off?” To well you name it.

I have seen a lot – not all - “believers” leave Critical Analytical Reasoning Skills at the ‘door’. I’ve seen leaps of assumptions based on the weakest of what was thought (believed) to be “evidence”. When in all actuality it could have been just about anything and more than likely, nothing at all. When the very real possibility of an earth based answer is given and pretty clearly – it is often (not always, but often enough) met with NAME CALLING, but not acceptance of the presented alternate facts, proof even workable theories.

I’ve seen the growing trend of actual EVIDENCE, PROOF and such be “laughed at” when requested. It’s usually met with, “Oh a Skeptic…” or “Oh a NON-believer…” Seems EVIDENCE, PROOF are NO LONGER >NEEDED >WANTED or WELCOMED. I know support groups that NO-Longer allow any questions that challenge a claim. Even if you provide valid proof that what a person saw was VENUS: It matched the TIME, DATE and LOCATION in the sky. No – you are banned from the group for doing that. I know --- I was. All I did was show a Star Map of the exact DATE: TIME and LOCATION in the sky – showing VENUS. Nothing else was stated – just the data. I was banned from the group. Reason that was given, “I made people doubt their experiences….”

I have seen people blindly believe claims about Area 51 and other government secured areas of “alien stuff” being ‘taken’ aka ‘stolen’ from there. That people do not stop to think about the no small security net force that is in place, “That some how these people ‘got lucky’”. It’s like believing someone was “lucky enough” to take “gold bar from Fort Knox” – simply ISN’T going to happen. No matter how “lucky” you might be: Simply will not happen, period. But they choose to believe this, despite the FACT that this couldn’t happen – except in FANTASY. But yet…..

I have read and heard people make claims of an “expert”, when no such expertise exists. No matter how long you’ve been in the military, government and such. Especially when these same ‘experts’ have stated at times when certain technology was revealed – “I didn’t know we had that…” – even those who were thought to be “IN THE KNOW”.

Then we have the ‘Credible Witnesses’ of people w/access to “TOP SECRETS”. This is probably the most serious point of where ‘credibility’ falls big time. Anyone that has Security Clearance to TOP SECRETS just don’t “get it”. There are so many Q & A’s, background checks, pending on the level, even periodic ‘lie detector’ tests and NOT to mention the Non-Disclosure Packs, they sign. These are LIFE BINDING CONTRACTS – that put you into jail – with NO RIGHTS. You violate the NDP and what is clearly stated there – you ARE signing away certain “due process”. That is GONE and NOT AN OPTION. So the minute someone is talking about CLASSIFIED TOP SECRET ALIEN STUFF – there is already serious RED FLAG of justified doubt raised.

Are the disclosing TOP SECRETS or using that as some “proof text” of their generic claims? See I can tell you I have TOP SECRET CLEARANCE to ‘stuff’. BIG FRACKING DEAL, that doesn’t mean I’ve seen Alien anything….. If they say, “I’ve seen Alien Technology being worked with or on in a TOP SECRET AREA 51 – they are jerking you around. > NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD DO THIS! It’s a ‘story’ they know you WANT to hear – so they tell it. It is truth?? No – not if they claim it’s TOP SECRET and they have/had the clearance to see this. They are suspect of telling you a lie. But people do not stop to seriously think about this. They excuse it with rational of “Brave” – “Coming out of the closet” – “Realized people need to know…” and so on. Ya, right – the contract and background checks are to well in place for this to slip by.

Not to mention the “claims” of “they are coming and/or are here” – but and I quote, “you cannot see them, they are cloaked…” These and other claims and stories like them, do only one thing – DAMAGE THE BELIEVERS CREDIBILITY, seriously BIG TIME. They do more damage then the Skeptics Questions and Observations do. But yet nothing is done about this from the believers… why??

All the above is the growing FOUNDATION that is being built on by the “believer”. Is this really a “good foundation”?? Why do you wonder why the Skeptic has serious doubts???

C. The Mass Media Fad.
Well it’s just that – FAD. It gets people to watch their station. It’s all about ratings and $$$. But as in the case of SCI-FI channel and their “Specials” – I watched them with more than a keen interest. When it was done, I went, “huh? That’s it?? They actually created more doubt on the Alien side and more positive for ‘earth based’ answer.


No actually I do not find it “odd”. There is enough R&D going on out there that is 80 years old. I’m talking about Zero G Flight Technology. This isn’t a “new” concept. Its 80 years old. What do you think is going on in those 80 years behind the ‘Black Doors’?? I read and watch and listen. There are several ‘experts’ that say – “what you see in the public is about 25 +/- years BEHIND what is going on behind those “Black Doors”. Why do you think Area 51 is “FLY IN ONLY”. NO ONE drives to work there. You are screened carefully at the airport going in and at several doors going out. They do have ‘black outs’ when any satellite is in “camera view”. They work around the clock, watching a whole lot of clocks.

One point that I find curiously funny is the “Belgium Triangle”. That some how this is “ET” – so what if it’s been seen in so many different places, INCLUDING here where I live: Washington State – LANDING at Boeing in Seattle at 2am. I guess the ET’s needed some fuel or a ‘potty break’??

Plus again as I asked/stated above: “Why is it so hard to believe, that in 80 years of R&D, that man isn’t capable of this??” Why is it easier to believe an *UNKNOWN ALIEN* can do this??

You do not know that an alien is even flying this UFO.
You do not know where this alien came from, let alone if one is behind the controls.
You do not know ….. yet – based on all the “NOT KNOWN” you accept that an ‘alien’ is doing this, but a paper trail that can show, man is very capable of doing this is thought, “no way – impossible”. Which takes the bigger LEAP of FAITH??

Jj - Again sorry for the length - 'you asked a good question!'

So what is going to be done - for THEY DO SERIOUSLY EFFECT the picture and how this topic is viewed. Like it or not. They DO SERIOUSLY FAR MORE DAMAGE to the crediblity and seriousness of the "cause".



I'll just re-ask this question from the above post:

“Why is it so hard to believe, that in 80+ years of R&D in Zero G Technology, that man isn’t capable of this??” Why is it easier to believe a *TOTALLY UNKNOWN ALIEN* can do this??

FACTS ARE:

It is .>NOT known that an alien is even flying this UFO. (just blindly accepted on faith)

It is .>NOT known where this alien came from, let alone if one is behind the controls. (just blindly accepted on faith)

This is ALL ASSUMPTIONS - PURE 100 % specualtion. "The believer" does .>NOT know ….. yet – based on all the “NOT KNOWN” the "Believer" accept that an ‘unknown alien’ - from 'who knows where' can/is doing this, but a paper trail that can show, man is very capable of doing this is thought, “no way – impossible”. Which takes the bigger LEAP of FAITH??

This is more than a "small" curious observation.....

Jj -

Well you can attempt to educate people, but for the most part you can not stop people from talking their nonsense especially on Internet forums where basically any nonsense concerning the subject is tolerated as fair game.

In the grand scheme of things what the public thinks is seriously irrelevant. Even if you can get John Q. Public to base his opinion on the Science and actively use his critical thinking skills it will not really effect the progression of Science by the Scientists willing to do the work. It won't stop those who have mental conditions either or those who've convinced themselves that some nonsense is true nor the people that have false memories.

Again, I do understand where your coming from but let me ask you this rhetorical question.

How can public opinion and schizophrenics/"contactees"/Hoaxers/"beleivers" SERIOUSLY EFFECT or DAMAGE the credibility and seriousness of an actual Scientific Mystery?

It's rhetorical because I don't expect anyone to give an answer, it would also be very embarrassing to admit that schizophrenics/"contactees"/Hoaxers/"beleivers" have that kind of influence on actual Science, and it's also irrelevant because they do not in fact have that influence and actual Science is moving forward.




For one thing I'm not a "believer".

Another reason is that I've seen no Scientific evidence of this other than some UAP have signatures of solid objects which might imply Human technology but also implies the possibility of ETI.

And last, Science predicts ETI and other life outside of Earth, but there is no Science that I've seen predicting secret human technology that explains UAP.

There's lots of recorded data evidence on UFO performance characteristics such as their maneuvering and velocity capabilities that clearly point to intelligently-controlled flying machines. Since the data depicts those machines exhibiting advanced technology unknown to us, then the question is: who are controlling those exotic machines?