Enlisted? Hardly. I'm an officer. So What? I haven't hidden it. I still don't know the answers to those questions but I can see how they would be related.

Let me try to explain as clearly as possible the Payne Stewart incident.

The confusion and disagreement have come from the difference in two times in the NTSB report.
That report is located here
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=...A005&akey=1
The part in question is here


Now the two times in question are 0933 EDT (Eastern Daylight Time) and 0952 CDT (Central Daylight Time)

0933 EDT is equal to 0833 CDT and 1433 Zulu or GMT
0952 CDT is equal to 1052 EDT and 1552 Zulu or GMT

1052 EDT - 0933 EDT =1 hour 19 minutes
0952 CDT - 0833 CDT =1 hour 19 minutes
1552 Zulu - 1433 Zulu =1 hour 19 minutes
or as in the report
0952 CDT - 0933 EDT =1 hour 19 minutes

The difference between these two times as you can see is 1 hour and 19 minutes.

It has been insisted by Hungrii Flea-Bagius that the difference is only 20 minutes.

At one point Hungrii Flea-Bagius claimed that the change to CDT (although used for the rest of the report) must be a typo and that the time should be 20 minutes.

This can not be as you can see on this site, which has all times in Eastern,
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....1521846767-4906
that NORAD was not notified until 0955, or 23 minutes after contact was lost.

But if the intercept happened in only 20 minutes, as Hungrii Flea-Bagius claims, then how is that possible when NORAD was not notified until 3 minutes after that?

The claim that I have made, is that due to the difference in time zones listed on the report, one must add an hour to convert CDT back to EDT to get the total time from contact lost to when the intercept happened.
I have never claimed that the act of crossing the time zone adds an hour to the flight. I have claimed that one can not subtract 0933 EDT from 0952 CDT and get 20 minutes. Due to the difference in time zones as reported, one must add an hour to get the correct number as I showed in the math above.

Is it clearer now?

NO it isnt
Your STILL claiming the exact same thing
that you had to add an hour because of the time zone
you may catch some of the Middle schoolers
But anyone 9th grade or above see's exactly what
your attempting to Pull off



ONLY BECAUSE OF THE TIME ZONE DIFFERNCE

I will no longer reply to your illusion concerning time zones
thanks for trying to come up with valid information? Instead all you have come
to do is to try and trick or confuse readers on a Time zone change
when your ready to discuss why norad failed to do its job MAYBE
Ill reply to you but at this point i see no need

I can only conclude at this point that you are arguing this point now just to get a rise out of me. That or you didn't even read my post. Probably both. Nobody can possibly be that thick.

Unless you can somehow explain how 0952 CDT(which is equivalent to 1052 EDT making this equation exactly like the first onein my post before) - 0933 EDT does not equal more than 1 hour.

Or what about the point you still have not responded to about when NORAD was notified?

Smart Move HFB. You have him there is no need for you to post further.

He is Not going to stop posting he always says hes done but then comes back

over and over again. he wont let you get the last word.But trust me ANYONE

who has followed this charade see it the way it is.Why he continues to try and

assert his carzed logic we can only guess.

Dont worry HFB EVERYONE here sees whaere you Exposed his attempt at

Muddying the waters. you also BTW raised some VERY valid points in my opinion

although I am UNSURE if an UN-Armed intercept would have been able to accomplish

anything short of a kamakazee run at the boeing.And I dont think youd find and air

force Officer with enough fortitude to pull something like that off my opinion anyhow

but he will keep posting as long as you do.you won great last post leave it lie....

you really have already proven your point quite well


thanks for posting

I’d completely agree that anyone with at least a 9th grade education should be able to understand what frenat is showing. It’s pretty elementary, and absolutely correct.

Per the NTSB report referenced by frenat in post 52:

Contact was lost with Payne Stewart’s plane at 9:33 Eastern Daylight Time, at which point it was only 8:33 in the Central time zone. The intercept occurred at 9:52 Central Daylight Time.

So, let’s assume I’m sitting in my house in the Central time zone, listening to all of this happen on the radio. When I first hear air traffic control lose contact with Payne Stewart’s plane, the clock on my wall reads 8:33. Correct? If not, why?

When I finally hear that the F-16 is within 8 miles of Stewart’s plane, the clock on my wall reads 9:52. That’s 1 hour and 19 minutes later. Correct? If not, why?

There’s no illusion here. frenat has explained this very clearly.

Amazing.

Pretty slick arent they?

Guys, I believe frenat is spot on. Hopefully, this might clarify things. This is the same extract frenat has been posting but with an additional note, which is found at the foot of the NSTB's Aircraft Accident Brief.


So, at 0933:38 EDT (0833:38 CDT) there is no response from N47BA. At 1010 EDT (0910 CDT) the airplane crosses from EDT to CDT. Then, at 1052 EDT (0952 CDT) the test pilot is within 8 nm of N47BA.

Apparently you guys don't know frenat works for the FAA...don't ever question his statements again...

lol....wasnt it bush who told norad to stand down..or darth cheney...im sure of it....

Funny

HBS never disputed the times given .what he has told you all is so simple your Looking right over it

Im amazed at this .here I think ill quote him from much earlier in the post that will make this easier

to get through .Im amazed that you all have over complicated this to the point of debating over a technicality


that concerns a time zone change amazing . in my 44 years i have never seen such audacity

here is a quote by HFB


The first thing we will notice in the quote fro HFB is that he does NOT at all dispute the mechanics in your technicality your choosing

to exploit. as he pretty well says to you back on page one what it took you till page whatever 5 ? anyways i digress back to the "technicality"

presented to us as ..I dont know a hingepoint in which to entirely divert the threads attention basically

now ill need to quote what was said by

Frenat in the beginning also lets be fair here



Notice how smoothly the technicality is introduced but in clear essence what Frenat is saying right here is that "technically"

you are wrong due to a time change from C.DT. to E.D.T. basically thats saying it took an hour and a half because of the time change

no matter how you boys grease it it comes out basically the same yes "technically" it was an hour and 20 minutes

or another quote fro HFB




OR ill make up a report timeline report of my own to correspond to HFBS scenario
=========================================================================\
Jimmy Phelps NTSB report on flight N47BA from Chicago to sanford on oct 13 2006

start report______

8:00pm C.D.T. Flight N47BA takes off at From ORD

8:09pm C.D.T flight N47BA contacted the Chicago Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.

930:pm C.D.T. Flight N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Atlanta ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

10:45 pm E.D.T. Flight N47BA contacted Orlando Air route Traffic Controller center and reported approach and requested permission to land

10;55P.M. E.D.T. flight N47BA recieved clearance for runway 3 niner bravo cleared for approach

11:00 pm E.D.T Flight N47BA touches down and disembarks at SAN Sanford/Orlando

end report________

NTSB fake report prepared by jimmy phelps to illustrate whats being said in this thread

======================================================================


So then its safe to say by this report i just made up that it took technically 3 hours to arrive at my destination

taking into consideration of the time change in the report from C.D.T. to E.D.T. right? i mean thats what this report

says right i mean "technically" per the change from CDT to EDT in the report it was a 3 hour trip....

that is EXACTLY what is occurring here but it so simple it easily missed

what a great post to return to after holiday



thanks for posting

The time zone confusion is one of hte reasons thta the FAA has for years been suggesting that U.S. pilots and airlines adopt a 24 hour world clock with Greenach as the 0 hour. If you call your local Flight Service Station, they will give you all the reports based on that time system. It is actually a lot more convienient after you take the time to learn it. No day Light Savings Time, no wondering what timeit is on that plane that is flying towards you from another time zone, none of that.

The strongest argument that the Airlines had was that it would confuse many employees and passengers and cause a lot of missed flights. Of course, I for one would've been quite happy to have missed those four flights!

Sorry, Jimmy, I don’t agree with you on this one. As you know, we’re on the same page when it comes to the big picture here, but I think frenat is right about this particular issue.

Let me try a different approach.

I’m running a marathon and, during the race, I will cross from EDT to CDT.

The race starts at 9:30 EDT. At 10:30 EDT I cross from the EDT zone to the CDT zone. I finish the race at 11:30 CDT. How long has it taken me to run this marathon?

The problem is here your analogy is flawed. It involves an Eastbound flight while the incident in question is Westbound. It works fine for Eastbound though as you understood that the hour had to be subtracted. For Eastbound one must subtract the hour from the time zone change to get all times in the same format. For Westbound one must add.
The times for a Westbound example should then look like this
=========================================================================\
Jimmy Phelps NTSB report on flight N47BA from sanford to Chicago on oct 13 2006 modified by Frenat

start report______

08:00pm E.D.T. Flight N47BA takes off at From Sanford/Orlando

08:09pm E.D.T flight N47BA contacted the Orlando Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.

0930:pm E.D.T. Flight N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Atlanta ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

08:45 pm C.D.T. Flight N47BA contacted Chicago Air route Traffic Controller center and reported approach and requested permission to land

08:55P.M. C.D.T. flight N47BA recieved clearance for runway 3 niner bravo cleared for approach

0900 pm C.D.T Flight N47BA touches down and disembarks at ORD

end report________

NTSB fake report prepared by jimmy phelps to illustrate whats being said in this thread modified by Frenat

======================================================================

If we just takes the times at face value there is only 1 hour but we know it was a two hour flight time. One hour has to be added back.

Three hours, if we are assuming that the race ends at 1130 C.D.T. One step before you cross the time zone, it is 1030. You have run for one hour. As soon as you step across the time zone it is 0930 again. If the race ends at 1130 C.D.T., you have run for two more hours since you crossed the time zone.

I don't think he was actually expecting anyone to answer that question....but thank you for showing off your 1st grade math skills....

Of course in hungiri flea time thats actually only 13 seconds

Over 2 full pages of misdirection from the topic !!!Interesting
interesting running race analogy, although what does it have to
exactly with Norad and the abscence of interceptors? NOTHING
It was a diversion to discredit the poster, and change the subject
thats become glaringly obvious hasnt it?

I mean anyone can clearly see that this has been used to change the subject
Thanks everyone, for staying on topic to the threads context!!
Ive become accustomed to this here though..... what a lark
of a place..... thanks everyone for ? have great time in the thread



Btw here another scenario per Frenats morning response today
ill re-write the phelps document
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
8:00 pm E.D.T Flight N47BA taxis up runway 39 Bravo and takes off from sanford Intl In orlando

8:30 pm E.D.T.flight N47BA contacted the Orlando Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and reported climbing through an altitude of 9,500 feet to 14,000 feet.

8:45 P.M. E.D.T. Flight N47BA Flight N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Atlanta ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency change.

9:00 P.M. E.D.T. flight N47BA passes into C.D.T.

8:15 pm C.D.T. Flight N47BA was issued instructions to change radio frequency and contact another Indianapolis ARTCC controller. N47BA acknowledged the frequency
change.

8:30 Pm C.D.T. Flight N47BA contacted Chicago Air route Traffic Controller center and reported approach and requested permission to land


8:35 P.M. C.D.T. Chicago grants permissions puts flight in landing hold pattern

9:00 P.M. C.D.T. Flight N47BA Lands safely at chicago ohare field

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok what we now of course see is that we flew East, to west, crossing the time zone. This report therefore, reflects the change from EDT, to CDT. And are we then led to believe that the plane flew from Orlando, to chicago, and it only took an HOUR! ............I mean the report says it left at 8:00 P.M. and landed at 9:00 Pm !!!so what we have had to do, per the Report due to the time zone change in it. Is to SUBTRACT an HOUR from the times per the EDT/CDT time change? I mean thats whats in the report.

Well of course we all Know that it STILL TOOK 2 HRS to make the flight......But "technically" the report is written showing it took an HOUR!! 8 Pm ,To 9 PM, so the report "Subtracts an Hour "TECHNICALLY" !! Due to the change in time zones....even though it in REALITY took 2 hours to make the flight....
sure seems to me the same thing .Whatever like i said i truly appreciate the MIS-DIRECTION that Frenat has spun into the thread
i will no longer discuss this aspect of the thread period

back to the SUBJECT matter please
And that is the apparent FAILURE of NORAD and NORTHCOM to do theyre JOB on the morning of 9-11
period...if you continue to change the subject i will be forced to start a new thread

quit with the personal attack there buddy read the rules

Again, please remember that you and I are of a like-mind where 9/11 is concerned but, as the above quote shows, you were the first to discuss the time it took to intercept Payne Stewart's Lear Jet. Had you simply accepted frenat's revision to the '19 MINUTES' claim, we could have been back on-track several pages ago.

You are, of course, absolutely right to question NORAD's slow response. The problem is compounded by their obfuscation during the 9/11 Commission's testimonial hearings, which later prompted its Chairman, Thomas Kean, to comment that, "[w]e, to this day, don't know why NORAD told us what they told us. It was just so far from the truth." Further, the idea that the DoD was running multiple war game scenarios on 9/11, including one that bore a striking resemblance to the actual attack, is hard to believe - it's just too convenient. And, as if we're short of 'wtf's?', we're expected to believe that the 'games' continued after the first impact, since the impact of Flight 175 was thought by some at NEADS to have been a simulation.

I don't buy it at all.

Of course, there is always the faint possibility that the records everyone is debating are in err. You know, we two leggers sometimes make mistakes! LOL