this post is ONLY about the failed NORAD response at the wtc on the morning of 9-11.......all other posts will be reported to mods.thisConcerns the absolute LACK od air support over washington D.C. and NYC on that morning despite the fact that an air force squadron was based not 10 minutes from the pentagon amazingly on sept 13th theyre mission statement on theyre web page dissapeared............they were there to strictly defend the skies over washington..where was Norad why was chaney running simultaneous drill that morning why did Norad stand down

please lets remain focused no new world order posts no fema posts no 9-11 commission posts no government double speak allowed

where was NORAD

anybody?
why was the air force website changed at the DC airbase? why did its mission statement change 4 days after 9-11 why werent fighters scrambled?
theyscramble fighters here 2 months after 9-11 twice the sonic booms were heard for miles and many calls were made to the police
what did the 5 simultaneous drills occurring have to do with the 9-11 attack how is it they just happened to occur on this moring?

Do you have the actual text that the website had before 911? Because I remember seeing it reproduced a year or two ago and it did not say "defend the skies over Washington".

Well being that i have stated that the site no longer is the same as it was...
NO i do not have the text, as the site had been changed 4 days after 9-11....
If you have access to what you believe was correct,why dont you POST it
so we can see ourselves?

do you have a link to the archived pages?
I am not referring to any reproductions i saw the site with my own eyes 2 days
after 9-11 i was always curious why fighters tasked with protection of washington
were never scrambled...

So you're saying you want me to do your work for you? That's rich. You're the one trying to make the point and you can't be bothered to look for the archive? Do you know what shifting the burden of proof is?

Nevertheless, here are the links to the archives as listed on this page. For the record, they weren't hard to find at all.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0111/S00122.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010306223457h...l/wg_units.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20010408230859/...il/hq/index.htm


The statements in question appear to be these

and


Nowhere do they state they had fighters on alert. What they do state is they are combat ready and train for air combat for national defense. To me that means they would be ready to deploy if needed but that still would take 24 hours at the least.

But what about the "capable and ready response forces for the District of Columbia in the event of natural disaster or civil emergency."? I think most units areound the country could say that about their local areas. Does that mean they all have fighters on alert? No, they mean if there were some natural disaster they could help out however needed. Have you ever seen National Guard troops handing out food and water or helping with general cleanup after a local emergency? That's the kind of response I envision is meant by that statement.

It is also interesting to note that the unit mentioned here is a Guard unit. You know, those guys that come to work one or two weekends a month? Why would they be expected to have fighters on constant alert?

ActuallyI made a statement myself i said that i had looked at the andrews site within day's of 9-11 it only came up in a archived google page that is where i saw them mention being there to defend the skies of DC i have gone through your first link at the NZ site it shares some consistencies with what i experienced also although I know what i read in the archived page had i been quick on my feet i would have copied it myself but at the time i still wasnt sure WHAT had happened on 9-11 and was still living in the "official" story book myself.....

and your statements about national guard units handing out food and water yes they do that ...........but i wasnt referring to them its the Air Force and marines that i am referring to..I Believe that Most Air Force bases, fly DAILY missions. When i was at Lakenheath, and Mildenhall ,those boys were in the air daily... When i have been near Mirimar In SanDiego, i saw the same thing as well. They are availible certainly to put bird's in the air within lets say 20 minutes? maybe a lil more? Well those planes flew around for over a half hour, before crashing ! CERTAINLY the Air Force, or National Guard, or the Navy, could have scrambled fighters that were less than 20 miles away?


Fot that matter fighters could have been scrambled from any number of military installations on the east coast and easily have intercepted the Slow moving commercial airliners.I simply cannot see how this was so impossible on that morning? Not much that you can tell me will sway me a fighter like the F-18 hornet, the F-16 ,the F-15,
harriers any Number of jets could have easily been launched and intercepted these errant sloths(slow moving) in the sky those commercial jets would have been easy prey for our countries Top Guns

No there HAS to be some Un-answered question as to why there was an APPARENT stand down Of Norad that day .It probably co-incided with the exercises that were being executed Convieniently on that same day. compartmentalization at its purest of forms..Ive watched Air Force boys playing and doing mock battles over lakenheath I know what they can do ...I dont buy any of the stuff they have said for reasons why we never had Birds in the air.It dosent wash with what we currently have in our aerial arsenals

you really expect us to believe it would take 24 hours to get a few birds in the air over washington DC during A CIVIL EMERGENCY of this magnitude?

I didn't say it would take 24 hours to get planes in the air over DC. I said they could deploy, as in leave for a foreign country in as little as 24 hours. But frankly, that would be pushing it. Realisticly that would be more like a few days. As for how long to get some birds in the air period, if they are not already ready to go then most jets need a few hours prep time before they are ready to take off. Even if one was ready sooner, if you don't have a pilot standing by ready to go he needs to prep also. And what about arming? Most jets are not sitting on the runway armed at all times. Very few missions are flown over the US with live ammo unless they are specifically going to a bombing range and sometimes even then they still don't have live ammo. Instead they will simulate it. It will take some time also to arm a jet unless you want them to just wave and smile at the hijackers. That is why there are only a certain number jets that are on alert status at any given time.

Regarding the exercises and whether they caused confusion, there was one question asked "is this real world or an exercise". Once that was asked and answered, and they quickly knew it was real world, they acted on it as such. I don't think the exercises caused much confusion at all.

Here's a related question. How long did it take to intercept Payne Stewart's jet when ATC lost contact with it? A good follow up is was the plane that first intercepted it armed?

Deploy to a foriegn country? we are talking about scrambling a couple of intercept jets not deploying units overseas? what did that have to do with our discussion at hand? nothing that i can see.Im unsure why you even would bring that point into our discussion ...unless you were trying to make the thread move in another direction? you werent trying that were you? There are Plenty of Birds already in the air during various times of day Its called Flightline operations they happen all over the world...."IF" they are not ready to go. Notice the emphasis on the key word in that sentance "IF" .Im sorry but i cannot and will not believe that nowhere on the eastern seabord was there an aircraft or 2 that could be launched at a moments notice.Not to mention the different flight line operations that may or may not have been being conducted


As i stated whil i was at Lakenheath Base those boys were in the air day and Night ops always flew missions while i was there EVERY day i saw birds in the air.While in sandiego the same thing and while near Norfolk Again the same thing Navy fighters flying ops day and night. there are ALWAYS a few Birds armed and ready to fly somewhere at a base in the US and always at overseas bases....Some lame Militray we have if we are to believe that in the case of an attack it would take us several hours to get air support? not in todays military . I just cannot see that as being true

there HAD to be something else that day that kept fighters from scrambling to intercept...not the excuse that it would take hours to get a piolot ready and place Birds in the air.That just dosent seem to plausible to me .Probably not to many others also.As you stated there are a certain number of jets armed and ready in the us ..we knew the whereabouts of one of the planes and knew where the others flew out of we would have scrambled something.unless they were either told NOT to which there has been some information relating to that as a possiblity.ill have to dig it up

As far as the arming part ...we scramble jets all the time when there is a notion that there has been a hijacking or something nefarious in nature.Short of the terrorist being a Air force or Navy/Marine Armament technician how exactly would they "KNOW" if the fighters were armed or not?I mean your a terrorist you barely know how to fly your making your peace with allah and getting ready to commit suicide,You have your hands full with the controls and the passengers ,and yet a couple of unarmed U.S. Fighter jets pull along side of your cockpit on both sides and radio you and motion you to take it down


And you look at these jets with all this going on and say Oh gee they arent armed!!! golly lets keep going!! Sure dosent seem very plausible or possible to me for a terroist to make that determination on the fly....besides i would think that a few jets could easily be launched with cannon armament in a short time frame sidewinders or similar would take an hour at best to arm and launch and i realize that wasnt possible BUT there were planes on tarmacs in the U.S. that were armed and ready to fly that day why didnt they

when they intercepted payne stwearts plane it

A.) wasnt a known Hijacking
B.) wasnt one of SEVERAL aircraft hijacked

and it took 19 MINUTES to intercept BTW who was it that Intercepted and escorted the lear jet?......"The National Guard"
"YOU KNOW THE GUYS WHO COME TO WORK ONE OR TWO WEEKENDS A MONTH"

The REAL question is why did it take some 80 minutes to launch on the morning of 9-11-2001?
it again wouldnt have mattered if they were "really" armed who would Know the difference in payne stewarts plane?




The very fact that the question was asked at least one time that is documented is this real or exercise Gives us the impression that the drills in fact did play a role in some confusion lets not forget Minetas testimony abouy Chaney and his flippant response. No I believe there was some serious confusion as to what was happening there were also reports of confusion at who was to authorize intercept


although prior to 9-11 there was NO need for any orders to intercept no I cannot buy the story being presented we have a much sharper military than that my friend
There IS some OTHER reason that Norad stood down and prevented launch of Birds

To answer your question and stop the childish squabbling:

Reasons the USAF did not shoot down the Airliners over Washington DC:

1. Confusion, remember this all happened very fast, no one was sure what planes were hijacked until it was to late.
2. Lack of communication, thus the arrival of Homeland Security, this is why every federal agency is now required to have direct communication with other federal agencies.
3. The 113th is a Air National Guard Unit located on Andrews AFB in Maryland, not DC..but thats not the point...Have you ever been to Washington DC? Think about the impact of shooting down a commercial airliner over a major metropolitan areavs. just letting it hit its target...which would cause less damage? Sounds to me like Risk Management at its finest.

Childish quibbling you say? interesting approach .that fairly well sums up your post id venture to say.
no it didnt happen "really fast" and they were confused"......As stated above, when they lost contact with a GOLFERS plane they intercepted in 19 minutes.........
Four commercial airliners go off the radar and go reported as missing or hijacked and it takes some 80 minutes to respond!!!!


the only confusion would have been standing orders given By Dich Chaney or somebody else that morning .Preventing fighters from being scrambled. there was confusion although not in the context you are trying to juxtapose upon us.Lack of communication? Well we havent seemed to have any problems in the past scrambling fighters to intercept aircraft but all of the sudden on this morning we lost that ability?Homeland security?

your certainly not serious so let me get this right in order to fix communication problems with flawwed Governmental agencies we chose to add several more layers of govermental gook to the mix? that has NEVR in the past helped any situations it almost always HINDERS things .Im sorry But HS is not the great savior here we are NO SAFER than we were prior to these events.Only someone very Naive would truly see it differently

I never said anyone should have shot anything down...intercept does not mean shoot
while the 113th was clearly ONE of the closest bases with jet, it wasnt the ONLY base within range. As I stated a fighter launched from Any Number of eastern locale's could have easily intercepted the slow moving passenger jets .oh sure they fly at 500 MPH the commercial airliners........NOTHING compared to an F-16, F-18, F-15
who are all capable of breaking the sound barrier!! And again im not as certain as some of you, that the intercepts being armed, or not, would have played any role at all
as How would the terrorist Know they werent armed???

Risk management?

oh boy

The deploying to a foreign country came up because that is most likely what is meant by being "combat ready". I was not trying to change the subject.

Payne Stewart's jet was not intercepted in 19 minutes but I thought you would say something like that. Many people think that but it is wrong. The confusion comes from a time zone change in the middle of the report from Eastern to Central. The real time for the intercept was an hour longer. Don't believe me? Look for yourself on the official NTSB report here
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=...A005&akey=1
Notice the change from EDT to CDT? That adds an extra hour to the overall time. Gee, now it looks to be about the same amount of time as it was on 911.
And the plane that intercepted him first was not Guard. It was from the 40th Test Squadron at Eglin. An active duty unit. The guard guys didn't show up until more than an hour later. But that's not the point. The point is it was diverted from another mission and was not armed. It was not a plane dedicated to air defense.

Now as for your comments about diverting a plane already in the air to intercept. Good question. Was there anybody close enough? It was still early so not many planes would be up. There are also not a lot of training areas near there so where they were flying may not have been close enough. There is also still the question of whether they could do anything.

As for your comments about it not making a difference whether they were armed. You seem to be saying that just having a military jet show up near them would have scared them off. If these guys are going to crash into a building what would they care about other jets near them armed or not?

There are not always jets armed at US bases. Not unless they are specifically alert bases. There were jets on alert that day and they did eventually get scrambled. However, with the disappearance of the Soviet threat the overall numbers were drawn down and I believe there were 4 total on the Eastern seaboard. At other bases they do not leave jets armed all the time. It is a safety issue.

well actually If you look at it as you have stated, you will see in fact that at 9:33A.M. E.D.T. is when the flight was reprted to be in distress. By the N.T.S.B. report which would have made the time in C.D.T. 8:33 A.M. ......are you following so far? Now based on what the reports says, Next at 9:52 A.M C.D.T. the Eglin Fighters were within 800 feet of the aircraft, which makes the E.D.T. 10:52 A.M .....So what you see, is almost a full Hour and a half time discrepancy. PER the NTSB report. Being the Eglin fighters, recieved the call at 8:33 A.M. C.D.T.and not arrived until 10:54 A.M. C.D.T.


The interesting part of this whole scenario is the report....it obviously contains TYPOS ... the first two Timeline entries are BOTH in E.D.T. ,And suddenly when the Eglin fighters arrive on scene, the time switches to C.D.T. and remains that way through the rest of the timeline.My contention is that there is certainly a typo. Why would this report change its timeline from eastern time, to central time? It certainly makes no sense at all. Considering then that it took an hour and a half to scramble intercepts to see what was wrong ...an hour and a half ? from Eglin? An air force base within florida, itself being located in the eastern time zone. But for some unknown reason, they changed the time from Eastern, to central, in mid report? Hmmmmmm actually i find what you have just brought us really interesting


Why is an intercept from a Florida air base, to an aircraft in Florida, using central standard time for its time line? And why not for the WHOLE timeline ...now on the other hand ,if we are dealing with just another government report with a typo, And the timeline was all eastern standard time, as it should be what would we have? A 9:33 A.M. report of trouble. and a 9:52 A.M. 800 foot time, and a 9:54 intercept time. Or ..........Ninteen minutes! As ABC reported, as did other mainstream news reports .What you have done is brought us to a Government "loophole", a very specific typo in a NTSB report. This certainly make Me for one HIGHLY suspicious of your intentions here.

This is something that perhaps many people would buy on its face value. But upon further examination, it is clear it is a Typo, as there is absolutly no need for the report to suddenly begin reporting is events in a different time zone.An excellent ploy, But its simply a typo. Thats clear for any of the readers willing to look.Yes your right Air force from eglin was on scene first.............But the Nat Guard was there for a hand off, and continued the escort .So an hour for them ....but again that is only because Eglin had birds on the target in 20 minutes. They didnt need nat guard as AF had handled it already.


As for the comments about being armed ill ask you again...do you really expect us to believe, that the terrorist's who were Allegedly behind the stick, were going to have absolutly any idea at all if the jets were armed or not? How exactly would they Know this? Even if the fighters didnt have visible rockets which in most intercept cases they DO NOT BTW...... the F-16 for instance has Internal 20 MM cannon ,hat is MORE than capapble of shredding a commercial airliner . And it is "Internal" therefore No Vision of the pods is necessary....

As you just said "Unless they are alert bases" well then there we have it . there are such bases .so then there ARE some armed Birds on alert. The point that i was trying to make ,thanks for confirming it. As you say 4 eastern seaboard locales, not to mention were there any carrier bound jets in the atlantic that morning? what about any Number of other bases? About a dozen of them in the southeast, and Ohio and Illinois .Many of those bases could have birds to the D.C. and New York area in an hour ...I wasnt suggesting that there are armed jets all over the place i understand fully well that only "alert" bases and aircraft carriers are where you will find them,

and as stated a 20 mm canon is really all thats needed but what were the Hijackers supposed to do try and ram the jets who would have also been manuevering to get the jets to land.

I'm not trying to go of topic here. Just follow with me. Many civilian aircraft and all commercial airliners are required by federal law to have what's called a "MODE-C" transponder or better. What happens is that the ATC radar hits the plane and the plane says: "I'm 0000" or some other four digit number that identifies it and it tells the ATC what altitude it is at and how fast it is moving. Normally, unless you have requested "flight Watch" or are in a controled airspace, a civilian will either have it set to "1200" or what ever number is assigned to it.

Until recently, the pilot could accidentally turn the transponder off. When this happens, all the radar picks up is an unidentified aircraft. The air traffic controler doesn't know who, what, how fast or how high.

The terrorists took advantage of this and the fact that at certain locations in the sky, one controller hands the plane off to another controller further along the route. Finding out where that hand-off location is, is as simple as spending US$7.00 and buying an aero-nautical chart of the region. Instantly, no body knew what was going on.

At the time, civilian pilots could fly in and around D.C. with little warning and many of them didn't have/use a MODE-C transponder. It would've been frivilous to send a fighter jet into look at any and every radar contact and would have placed the fighter aircraft too far off station to respond to the expected threat, one from outside the CONTUS.

To put it quite simply, they knew our Judo and found holes in it to use against us.

By the time that we got to the last of the hijacked airliners, a lot of damage had been done and confusion was running rampant. At one point they were concerned that the POTUS had been targeted because his code name had been used in a report! I don't know that it was shot down but, I think that it probably was. Who knows where it was intended to hit? If it had been allowed to complete it's mission, people whould be saying "Why didn't they shoot it down?", sort of like people say about the other ones. If we did indeed shoot it down, the Government willnever admit it and never should. It's better that the relatives remember their loved ones as heros and not as victims.

The plane traveled west as it was intercepted. It started in the EDT time zone and eventually crashed in CDT. Eglin is in Central. There is no typo. The EDT times are for the filing of the flight plan and talking to Jacksonville, all done in EDT. The intercept, done by an Eglin jet, done in CDT, and reported in CDT as the jet had traveled that far west. They were not there in 20 minutes.

As for the part about arming, I don't know why you are going on about the hijackers knowing if it was armed. To the hijackers it won't matter. They will fly regardless. They are already going to crash into buildings, why should they care about getting shot at? The point I'm getting at though is unless the jets are armed, they won't be able to do much.

I also did not say 4 locales had alert jets. I said there were 4 alert jets. Sorry if I wasn't clear. As I understand it there were no alert fighters in the central US either as before 911 all threats were assumed to be coming from outside.

Frankly, I am close to being done with this. The original question of the thread concerned statements on AF websites pre 911. As the archives showed, they contained statements that some have misinterpreted but did not say they had alert fighters. As far as I'm concerned, the thread is done. I did bring up the intercept of Stewart's jet to show that the intercepts don't happen as fast as some might think. That is also done. It was not a typo. As you can see on this page
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....1521846767-4906
that report it without any time zone changes, NORAD wasn't even notified until 9:55 so it is impossible that they could have had jets intercepting it 3 minutes before that. Again, not a typo.

RIGHT I see..... So then it took them an Hour and a half to intercept a plane, That was flying in the same state as the base was located? I understand what your implying, truly i do...... But i cannot/will not buy this supposed story of an Hour and a half intercept time?......What your Implying to me, and the readers, here is that our Air Force
,and National guard, who are tasked with protecting us from enemy fighters,Bombers,and missles are so inept ,that we NEED at least an Hour to respond to any threats that may enter US air space? The issue of time zones is a NON-ISSUE..

And Umbarger takes it even further, and suggests that our Military had no way to find, or track these errant commercial airliners, when the transponders are turned off!!! Do you Guys REALLY believe, that our Military is that rudimentary? Do you reallly think that NORAD does not have the capability to track EVERY FLYING OBJECT over the skies of the United States?............Sorry all reports at the time of payne stewarts plane being intercepted said 20 minutes intercept, if you omit the typo you have 20 minutes intercept.............yes Eglin is just over the central daylight lines, by maybe a few miles So what? .......It still dosent make any difference, to have a report that splits its times in the report ....why didnt they stick to one time? To confuse the issue.....or a typographical error, whatever you have your opinion and i have mine ..


Talking about time zone difference, and air travel is MOOT.If you climb in a plane in chicago, and fly 2 hrs to orlando.Lets say you leave chicago at 8 pm, and arrive in orlando at 11 pm......
But your watch, and the amount of time you took to make the flight, is still 2 hrs, not 3 as the time zone suggests.....Driving from Chicago, to Florida, takes approx 23 hours to Orlando.............So you again leave at 8 pm, and arrive at 8 pm, but it still only took 23 hours to drive there.. NOT 24 as the time zone change suggests?
Again maybe you will catch some, on this one but I doubt it ,most readers arent that naive.


As I asked you and ill ask again.......what were the terrorists going to do when intercepted? They were going to what ram the fighters?Generally the fighters would take positions above the nose of the plane and start forcing the plane down.So then the Hijackers were going to do what exactly? Try and ram into the fighters? How long would it take to arm the internal cannon? the 20 mm not very long im sure,a 500 round drum probably can be in placed in minutes. Navy Jets use a 578 round drum, Air Force 510 I believe these are One piece, internal drums,far different than loading Aim's or sparrows which could take up to an hour to requisiton and install on the pods


If you were a terrorist then you want me and the readers to believe that you would assume that figher jets were unarmed ,and would then just continue enroute to the target.And that even Un-Armed escorts would allow this?? would you then what crash into the ground? ram the fighters?

The last point you argue is truly trivial as you say there were 4 JETS possibly on alert.....well then it would stand to reason that a possibility of 4 BASES being alert bases is Not out of the realm is it? 1 Bird per base? Maybe they were 2, and 2 .Does that really make a difference? Or is it just another technical hingepoint, for you to attempt to exploit?And you say we had NO alert planes in the U.S. ,Again you ask the readers, and I, to believe our Military is INCAPABLE of defending our nation ?


Are we really to believe that in the continental U.S. that prior to 9-11 there were NO alert aircraft on duty? No Intercept aircraft on Duty ? And the morning of 9-11 on top of the missing intercept, and alert aircraft, we are to believe that out of all the Bases in the United States, we were UNABLE to meet the threat with an intercept? Seems to me there have been many instance prior to 9-11 that intercept fighters were scrambled...And we are also to believe that the U.S. was so confident ...that they believed all threats were only outside of the U.S.? Im sorry I just have some real issues with you all downplaying the ability and duty of our soldiers here at home.

you are asking us to believe that the united states did not have the capability to

A.) find "missing" boeing commercial airliners?
B.) scramble any fighters in under an hours time?
C.)didnt have a single p-3 with aerial radar technology to put up?
D.) had NO naval aircraft that could have been launched?
E.)IT took an Hour and a half to intercept a private due to a time zone change?


I find that incredibly implausible myself as im sure many of th readers will also.

Well But of course,I am not surprised to hear this from you .I am well aware of the original premise as I am the author of it!! you are
referring to a singular point in the premise...You provided us, re-constructed "evidence" that was provided somewhere OTHER than the
Original Air Force site.As i stated in my last post ,the time zone issue is MOOT..... read it carefully ,readers .he is trying to assert something
here that has NO BEARING on what happened at all. Look at my travel analogies, and you will clearly see the manuever which is being
attempted......

Again this man would have us believe that, The united states is basically incapable of protecting us...... unless they have an hours advanced notice !!
And that we would have been unable to load a 510 round drum, into an F-16 and launch it for intercept unless we had at least an hours time !!
Boy dosent that Idea make you seem safe, and sound? Do you really believe that the US military is that inept? I know i sure dont !
Youll notice that now that the responder has actually had to work to keep his illusion alive. He now claims he is about through here.thats because
he is not used to having someone be able to counter his every move.


Youll also notice that now its become a nitpicking match, over a flawwed time zone Vs. actual travel time issue..... based on im not sure what?
And the subject has clearly shifted from why Norad failed to launch intercepts that day and why a mission statement change was made to a question of time zones and payne stewarts intercept.absolutely trying to keep the subject out of context.I am not the one who continues to change the direction of this thread it is You who have done that 3 times now..But its a clear attempt at finding an OUT in this thread,I notice that this occurs frequently at message boards.

Read the other link I posted. The intercept did not take 20 minutes. If you continue to believe there is a typo, then how is the intercept supposed to happen 3 minutes before NORAD was even notified? The times are accurately accounted for in the report.

And for the record, Eglin is not just a few miles into Central time. It is more like 80+. The Central time zone line is just East of Mexico Beach which is itseld 15 miles east of Tyndall which is 60+ miles east of Eglin.

And with that, I am done with this. You can continue to believe in your wrong opinion but it will still be wrong. I'm not trying to make you believe anything. I was just trying to point out that an intercept may not be as quick as you think.

The web site evidence was straight from the web archives of the web site in question. It was not reconstructed. The fact remains that there was no mention of fighters being on alert at Andrews. If you have evidence to the contrary then please present it.

Gosh, you're funny. I point out how you are wrong and you just can't accept it. The Stewart intercept was mentioned because some might think it related. I thought the web site change was over and done with as the archive showed the site did not say anything about defending the skies over DC.

Yeah and it takes 3 hours to fly from chicago to orlando because the time zone says so?
I know where the time zone is, 60 miles...... a F-16 could cover that distance in how long?
Oh thats right ! we have to add an hour, because it crossed a invisible boundary,
that somehow changes the time it takes for things to happen, a vaccum if you will?


I think the readers can clearly see your ploy here, as you continue to change the Subject
and bicker over a non issue Time zones?Ok then thanks for your interest. as i understand it
you are done with this issue? So then the bickering, over a a non issue will be over then too?
Thanks for reponding to me ,and attempting to show me why Norad failed to do its job.
your the first one to even try and explain it .Nice presentation, But it dosent answer my questions
unfortunatly so the quest goes on

Did I say that? No. I simply pointed out that the intercept was an hour longer than the 20 minutes you thought because of the time zone change. You are the one that can't seem to accept that fact.


I think most of the bickering has come from you but ... whatever. I really don't care at this point. You win OK! That seems to be all you've wanted anyway. There was no ploy, I simply wanted to try to provide more info. I'm sorry I ever got involved. If your purpose was to push me away from researching more into 911 then you've succeeded. I think most other readers can see that the time zone was not a non issue as related to the timing in the report but if you don't, fine. I give up. You win. You win. You win. NORAD is all powerful and can intercept planes 3 minutes before they are even told about it. You win. Happy now?

Wow
Man you need to step away from the computer for a while
i sense a meltdown.I am not going to nitpick
the readers CAN see everything in your last postings...

Ill let your post stand as testament

Whatever dude. Just know that I'm laughing at you. I've been laughing at you since you started to insist the time thing must be a typo. That last post was meant as humor. Apparently you couldn't get that either.

Is it so hard to believe that the US Govt moves at a slow pace and just didn't have time to respond? Of course every now and then they will respond quickly like original poster dude says over and over again about the ONE time they responded to an aircraft in a timely manner...but those are flukes...

Well I am going to throw my 2 bits into this. First, there were 4 bases on the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf of Mexico that had aircraft on alert. Cape Cod, Langley, Shaw and Elgin on the west side of Florida. The US Navy is not responcible for national air defence, that is the responcibility of the Airforce. And the carrier fighters are based at Jacksonville Naval Air Station in north Florida. You do not want to depend on Navy jets that are gone from home for 6 months at a time when their carriers are at sea. The time from alert until in the air is 15 minutes. The f-15s from Langley made it into the air in 13 minutes. There use to be a lot more fighter-interceptors covering the USA. But the 175 F-16ADFs, were retired along with most other interceptors, after the end of the Cold War. The main reason for these fighters were to intercept aircraft coming into the country from the east. Or to escort the Russian bombers and transports flying down the East Coast to Cuba. But again, with very few Russian planes flying to Cuba, the number of interceptors was cut down.

Andrews Airforce Base is mostly a transport aircraft base. For example, the home of the Government Flight including Air Force One. And did not have fighters normally based there. Air defence for the Greater Washington area is the responcibility of Langley Airforce Bases wing of 72 F-15s. And I said, as soon as alerted, the 2 on alert were airborne in 13 minutes. But Langley is 113 miles from the Capital Building. The reason that Langley was the base is that the citizens of Washington DC did not want a full fledged air base inside the residential area of Washington.

As far as why radar did not pick up the hijacked plane was that the terrorists took advantage of one of the features of the air traffic control system. Not only did the hijackers turn off the radar transponder, but they also decended below 10,000 feet. The importence of that is that radars have filters to keep from flooding the radar screens with private aircraft. On 9/11 everyone knows of the 4,000 commersial airliners that were in the air over America. But at the same time there were 30,000 to 35,000 small private aircraft in the air. And you would have the radar screens just a mess of dots if you picked up all aircraft. So commersial aircraft must maintain a certain altitude where they are picked up by radar. And unless they file a flight plan, all private aircraft must be below that altitude. So you do not have a mixing of the aircraft that would overwhelm air trafic control. But the hijackers first turned off the transponder. Then decended below radar so it would not be picked up.

Yes, there is something called Risk Management. If you shoot down an airliner over a major city, you could have a greater casulty count than you had in the WTC. Shoot down an airliner flying at the speed the plane did, you could have a teardrop 3/4 of a mile by 1/4 mile of burning aircraft spread across New York City. I would hate to see the death toll if you had dozens of buildings on fire from a crashed airliner. Along with all the peopole walking in the streets.

As far as the Paine Stewart accident, the two Air National Guard F-16s, were already in the air on a training mission. Since the Lear Jet was flying at about 450 mph, it did take the F-16s some time to overhaul it. But the A.N.G. planes were at a low fuel condition. And were relieved by other F-16s from South Dakota.

Lets face it, the terrorists took advantage of the situation the USA was in before 9/11. We had never had an hijack that tried to crash into a building. Most all wanted to go to Cuba. So we let them because it would have been safer than trying to stop a hijacked plane. The terrorist pilots trained in the US. While other pilots trained to fly in the US, the terror pilots wanted to attack it. They studied the air traffic system. But to use it to their advantage. Just as they used all of Americas weaknesses that day.

I think you are missing the entire point here...we do not state facts and speak in an educated tone...we make accusations based on what we heard from another website, or what we feel actually happened, no one here ever does any actual research...get a clue

thanks for giving us your 2 cents ...you have some valid points

Allright we again are getting informataion telling us there were 4 bases
that had aircrat on alert which is what i said and frenat disputed and you have confirmed
You dont want to depend on Nave carrier jets? OMG your kidding right? some of the
Best fighter pilots in the world and some of the worlds best equipment?


i of course am aware of the fact that its the Air Forces Primary job to handle alert intercept
I also am aware that the National guard also has a role in this layer of protection.
And im aware that the Navy primarily does not play any role in protection at home
Although there are Marine VMFW squadrons and naval reserve squadrons with Birds


Any one of these military branches could easily launch birds in under an hour
you refer to langley launching first and then state to us But Langley is 113 miles from the capitol building
we are talking F-15 Falcon top speed 1875 Mph Mach 2.5, F-16 top speed 1500 MPH and we quibble over a 113
mile distance? thats really not a factor a 7 minute flight? If that but i was under the impression that two fighters
were Also scrambled from Otis? which also would have been an approx 7 minute flight the following is from this
website it sums up some of what im trying to say very well



http://www.mycountryrightorwrong.net/mcrow2.htm#f15




and on to the radar. So then we cant track the aircraft because they turned theyre transponders off? so did all those russian migs have transponders? so we could keep track of them? how about the rest of our enemies they too have transponders for us to track them? The United states was So Vulnerable all you had to do was turn off transponders and fly low and you could attack us at will? No Militray means for norad to watch every inch of the sky?I have some serious Doubts to that much vulnerability
not in the technological world we had and have...


this is the mission statement



seems like theyre pretty intent on "owning" the skies over the U.S.A. dosent it?


and BTW i wasnt inferring that we ought to have shot down the aircraft.I dont believe that would have been necessary, and even so it would have been the lesser of two evils. particularly at the pentagon .Ill agree that shooting down either of the flights over manhattan,would have been Impossible due to the scenario you provided to us... But flight 11 flew over the Hudson river for some 80 miles before hitting the face of the north tower. it could have easily been splashed in the river ... so three of the 4 flights easily could have been splashed with minimal collateral damages..IT certainly appears to me that flight 93 did teardrop across the countryside of Pennsylvania
as i believe it was shot down..

Im sorry But i still dont buy it so i cant face it....I do NOT believe that terrorists were able to do what they purport they did.I still feel that there is SOME OTHER reason that these fighters were held back.it just dosent make sense I also undertand the idea that there are far less alert jets in the US these days but as i also say any number of other aircraft could have had 20mm armament and been airborne in 15 minutes .and Btw generally alert Birds are aloft in 7 minutes it can be up to 15 but generally they pride themselves in being able to cut that Minimum time in half.........

there has to be reason that norad fell on its face it was no mistake no weakness it is more than that the numbers dont add up
at least for me and many others they dont thanks again for sharing your Ideas with us hope to talk more in the future

He has not "confirmed" anything, he's some dude you don't even know...is this how you get all your information, by believing everything someone tells you?



You've obviously watched Top Gun one to many times, the US Navy blows....the USAF has the best fighter pilots and the best equipment....



Are you saying you agree with Rosie O'Donnel?? Hmmm, you havn't looked at it like that before have you...

Pick a side, you are either with Rosie and the Terrorist, or with America...which is it?

Actually the number of bases was 4 i researched it ,and stated it. Frenat disputed it for kicks .but also gave us the Number of 4 fighters on alert
then we have this next guy who also says 4 alert Birds on 4 bases ,Reality is look it up andyou too will find 4 alert Birds on 4 bases
The Navy Has the best fighter pilots in the world. Air Force guys land on stationary air feilds Big deal. Land on a carrier deck in weather.

Actually as an American citizen the U.S.government DOES REPORT TO ME
per my Constitution ,it is also My Duty and Right to remove a corrupt govt from
tyrannus power.And My duty to dissent as need be .

please stay on topic and follow the forum rules

Well then why didn't you say the navy was the best at landing an aircraft...The Navy doesnt have an aircraft that can go toe to toe with a USAF Fighter

The F-14 Tomcat will go toe to toe with any of the jets mentioned in this thread it is superior to the F-15 and F-16
and has greater range and speed capability than the F-18

Now back to the subject at hand do any of you have anything CONCRETE as to why apparently Norad dropped the ball on this
One particular morning?I mean telling me to F-15's launched and it took them less than 15 minutes to do so but they didnt intercept
for over an hour does nothing to make your case....especially when trying to give the excuse that its because they were 113 miles away
Cmon fighter jets with top speeds in excess of 1300 MPH

The reality is a Bird launched at Scott AFB in southern Illinois could have made the flight to dc in under 15 minutes?
there hasnt yet been a single good explanation as to why NO PLANES made it in time for intercept.....then we have all sorts of other nonsense thrwon in
Like "you have to add an hour for the time zone change" Cmon lets be real.and now the thread is reduced to yet another person
Directing attention away from the topic

throughout my discussion in this thread posters have CONTINUALLY tried to divert attention from the reality of the discussion
Just like the guy above who wants to continue to debate whether Air force or Navy has the best Planes and pilots
anyone else want to take a stab at the topic?

How long after taking off can they get to top speed? What altitude do they have to be at to travel at that speed? How long does it take to climb to altitude? How much fuel will they use travelling at that speed? Will they have enough left at their destination to maneuver? Was supersonic flight authorized over land before 911?

Didnt you tell us you were through with this thread?
why yes you did. and yet as usual here you are?
why dosent that surprise me? why are you asking
these Flamebaiting questions when its obvious your
lying in wait with the answers to all of them....

your intents become once again clear

Do you or Dont you have Pertinent information to the thread
or are you just going to continue to go off in tangents?

I mean Cmon your the guy purporting that Intercept took
longer than 20 minutes because of a Invisible Line drawn
across the land called a time zone....
you are saying that a time zone change was somehow able
to Morph the amount of ACTUAL time a flight took because it
crossed an invisible line

to which i provide a perfect analogy and present it you and you then
say No i didnt say that and go on to exactly that
your claim is the Payne stewart intercept jets took an hour longer to intercept
because they crossed an invisible time zone line that somehow managed to
physically change the ACTUAL time it took to intercept


the same thing as claiming a flight from chicago to orlando really take 3 hours because you crossed an invisible line
even though we all KNOW it only takes 2 hours for the flight....same thing on this intercept it only took 20 minutes
But your trying to tell us it took an Hour and 20 minutes because it crossed an invisible line
remarkable

Good luck friend it seems you have a new shadow

Wow, you're thick. I was done with the other discussion and now you bring it up again. I was just trying to ask some questions. How were they flamebaiting at all?

If you really want to believe that the intercept took 20 minutes, then perhaps you can explain how the intercept then happened at all when NORAD was notified at 23 minutes? Seriously, why you can not understand that the confusion over the time it took is due just to the reporting of the time in a different time zone and not to any change from the time zone itself is beyond me. You are trying to say I am giving some magical properties to the time zone when I have said nothing of the sort. Get over yourself.


I have said nothing of the sort. This tells me you have not really read my posts. You just want to be right. Again, tell us all how the intercept could take 20 minutes when NORAD wasn't notified until 23 minutes.

How about looking at the report with the times changed to Zulu? It would then read.

"At 1333:38 Zulu (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 1452 Zulu, a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA."

Gee, looks like more than an hour to me.
Or you can look at the timing all in Eastern here
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity....1521846767-4906
I've posted that link before and I've noticed you've failed to comment on what it says.

This whole thing is also explained well here.
http://www.911myths.com/html/payne_stewart.html

do you have anything to contribute to the topic? or are you going to help them in misdirecting the post in a tangent i am pretty sure i know which

How is it going off on tangents when you brought the subject up again?

And my previous questions were definitely related to the subject as well. YOU mentioned the maximum speed of the fighter jets and I asked questions related to that. How is that a tangent exactly?

I was talking to Jimmy Phelps there Big Guy
your not that important to be responded to
especially because you informed us all that you
were DONE with this thread...asking questions that
you obviously have answers for could easily be construed as
Flame baiting

Am I not allowed to change my mind? Should I have asked your permission first? Why is it surprising for me to return when you are misrepresenting the argument I made?

Crazy isnt it?

I have the answers? Really? That's news to me. I don't know the answers to those questions but I do know they are related. I'm just curious what the answers might be.

this is Rich.................dude give it up HFB owns you
you look a bit like your face is covered in Eggs
and HFB Frenat ALWAYS claims hes done with threads
then he continues to water your post down
i wouldnt give him any further response you
certainly cleaned his plate for him here


Great Job

thanks for posting

So, how did the intercept take only 20 minutes when NORAD wasn't notified until 23?

thats EXACTLY what Frenat is claiming HFB

this quote from him covers that base



notice he IS CLAIMING that the time zone change adds an hour to the actual flight time

EXACTLY as you Chicago to Orlando post states HFB

you nailed him very well on this one


thanks for posting

Yet another that doesn't understand it. How sad. The act of crossing the time zone does not add an hour. I never claimed that. However, converting the time to the same time zone shows the hour was there all along.

you did so claim it see it right above in the quote bubble

Busted Frenat give it up HFB owns you !!

I have absolutly no doubt that you are laying in wait with those answers.
Actually I just recieved an Interesting PM telling me that Frenat actually
Is an enlisted man in the U.S. air Force....ahhhhhh ha that explains your
dilligence dosent it? Stationed in Beautiful Georgia at a well known base!!

yes that actually now makes total sense and pretty well confirms to me that you have the answers in question