[quote name='MissMelsWell' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:57 AM' post='1553592']
I mean, lets put it in the simplest terms, from reading the Bible or the Torah, Book of Mormon, NT, or even the works of Buddha, the basic message is the same... be good, be Godly, be moral... Mormonism and other religions pretty much embodies that theology (and let's face it, it's not a bad theology.. in many folks opinion the details are screwy, but the basic message is there)....

The problem seems to arise from the details of how to achieve that... I'm not sure God is so interested in the details (what leader would be, the goal is to get the good done, no matter how that's achieved). I'm a Christian, I do believe in the Trinity, but far be it from me to tell a Buddhist or a Jew that they should too... that would be egotistical of me, and not terribly Godly or Christ-like for that matter. Now I know non-religious people and religious zealots get a chill from hearing that, and I apologize, but I am not necessarily certain that those who believe in no God figure are doomed either. I think God's love and word is heard in all cultures and people alike, whether they want to believe or not. It's not a popular view from a Christian, but it's my view and most of my order's view. No violence, no prejudice, take care of your brother, and only walk in the light, regardless of where your light may come from.

And this is going to be unpopular for sure, but in my opinion, the Devil is in the details.

Peace Friends,

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This is the beginning of my (texasgirlheather's) response. The reply button didn't work the way it usually does and did not demarcate between MissMelsWell's comment and my response, so I went back and edited to add this so that everyone could be sure where the difference was without having to scroll back.
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Well apparently Mormons don't feel the same way about the no prejudice thing:

http://www.blacklds.org/mormon/mauss.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_beli.htm

One of the founding tenets of their religion is that black folks are intrinsically inferior and should not have any rights. Blacks were not "allowed" to have any status in their church until 1978. It took this long for the prophets to "divine" and receive a "revelation," under much political and social pressure, I'm sure, that "worthy black males" could be priests in their church.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Th...welfare_systems

I guess Native Americans haven't become "white and delightsome" yet.

This is a racist belief system and I am shocked that everyone is so accepting of it. Some so-called Christians are racist because they pervert the Gospel; but the Gospel itself is not of a racist nature, it must be perverted before it can be construed as racist. Anything can be perverted and then construed as something else with a little tinkering. But Mormonism has at its heart racism.

Also, I wonder that there was no outcry on this thread about "womens' rights." In one strain of this belief, women are all but forced by the social standards of their enclosed communities to share a husband with one, two, or even 10 or 15 other women. How much fathering can a kid get when sharing with 50 other kids? And in many of these particular cases, the families are living on welfare and food stamps.

I am confused as to why everyone is coming to the general conclusion that Mormons are harmless. Elsewhere in many other threads, the opinion of many (some of the same here that seem to decide that Mormonism is ok because they're so accepting of everyone) is that Chrisitianity is exclusive because it asks you to search your heart and confess your sins.

They also view homosexuality as a sin. Ok for them, not for Christians.

This is a curious thing to me. I wonder if anyone else sees this, or would be interested in commenting on it.

hmmmm... from what I know of mormonism wasn't Joseph smith like 13 when he found those golden plates?

And the Mormons don't just have a mormon Bible, they use the bible, and the book of mormon, and the pearl of great price.

But from what I've heard of the temple in Utah and all that it seems to have that higher up cultic freemasonry vibe.

But I don't know, I could see why they would have so many followers though, if you're good enough you get to lord over your own planet with some wives to help you populate it. No offense, like I said I don't know much about it.

They used to use the King James Version, except for a few annoying scriptures that knocked out there foundation from under them. Example below.

Gal 1:8 (BBE) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, were to be a preacher to you of good news other than that which we have given you, let there be a curse on him.

So now they have re-written their very own bible so as to support Joseph Smiths angelic encounter.

Irish

Ah, but question your sources--they're ALL anti-LDS, those writers have an agenda of some sort. You'll find similar arguments from anti-christian writers. Do I like the theology of mormons? Not really. If more than anything, my contact with them personally has shown me that they have very little respect for women and that bothers me (but it's all personal experience too). BUT, on the other hand, they aren't bad people per se, they have some goofy beliefs, just like the JW's do, of course, you could throw my own demonination in there too.

Now if you want to worry about racism, worry about the KKK, the neo-nazi's, white separatists... why? Because they insight violence of the worst kind. Dig around in some of those groups, it's highly unlikely you'd find many Mormons. You'd think if racism was an active part of the LDS's theology, Mormons and former Mormons would be attracted to those racists kinds of groups... but they really aren't. The more fundy Mormons tend to wander toward polygamy and community living, more cultish behavoir and even then, it's all about the role of women, not the role of race.

The best of your articles is the http://www.religioustolerance.org one. It shows how the Mormon's have changed their doctorine to a less than racist theology. In my opnion, there are mainline Christian sects that are FAR worse than Mormon's when it comes to racism.

The KKK and other overtly racists groups use doctorine actively to fuel their cause to devistating effects. While they aren't a formal religious group, you can probably safely guess that members backgrounds are mostly in mainline Christianity and not in the LDS.

only had one encounter with the mormons.....some very nice ppl...but that changed..out of respect and trying too learn as muc (1st handed) as possible about their religion..i just held my peace and let the lady speak..they are very strong in what they beleive they believe that joseph smith was like mohammed so to speak..she freely gave me a book of mormons..in the front it has the testimony of joseph smith..it goes something like this.

"THE TESTIMONY OF THE PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH"
The prophet joseph smiths own words about the coming forth of th eBook of Mormon are:
"on th eevening of th e..twnety-first of Sept 1823 ..i betook myself to prayer ans supplication to almighty god..

"while i was thus in the act of callin up god i discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until th eroom w as lighter than at noonday, when immediatley a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

"he had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. it was a whiteness beyond anything earthly i had ever seen nor do i believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. his hands were naked, and his arms also, a little abouve the wrists so also were his feet naked, as were his legs a little above the ankles his head and neck were also bare. i could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that i oculd see into his bosom.

"not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lighterning. ther room was exceedingly light but not so very bright as immediatley around his person. when i first looked upon him i was afraid but the fear soon left me.

"he called me by name and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of god to me and that his name was moroni that god had a work for me to do and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people

"he said there was a book deposited, written upon gold p0lates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. he also said that the fulness of th eeverlasitng gospel was contained in it, as delievered by the savior to the ancient in habitants

"also that there were two stones in silver bows and these stones fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the urim and thummim deposited with the plates and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted seers in ancient or former times and that god had prepared them for the pupose of translating the book.


"again he told me that when i got those plates of which he had spoken for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled i should not show them to any person neither the breastplate with the urim and thummim only to those to whom i should be commanded to show them if i did i should be destroyed. while he was conversing with me about the plates, the vision was opened to my mind that i could see the place where the plates were deposited and that so clearly and distinctly that i knew the place again when i visited it.

"after this communication i saw the light in the room begin to gather immediatly around the perom of him who had been speaking to me it continued to do so, until the room was again left dark, except just aroundhim when instantly i saw as it were a conduit open right up into heaven and he ascended until he entirly disappeared and the room was left as it had been before this heavenly light had made its appearance.."


the messanger visited him 3-4 more times...
after the 4th visit..

" convenient to the village of manchester, ontairio county, new york, stands a hill o f considerable size, and the most elevated of any in th eneighborhood.on the west side of this hill, not far fromt he top under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. this stone was thick and rounding in th emiddle of the upper side and thinner towards the edges so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground but the edge all around was covered with earth.

"having removed the earth. i obtained a lever which i got fixed under the edge of the sone and with a little exertion raised it up. i looked in and there indeed did i behold the plates the urim and thummim and the breastplate as stated by the messenger. the box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement in the bottom of the box were laid two sones crosswys of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.

"i made an attempt to take them out but was forbidden by the messenger and was again informed that thet time for bringing them forth had not yet arrived, neither would it until four years from that time but he told me that i should come to that place preciselyin one year from that time. and that he would there meet with me and that i should continue to do so until the time should come for obtaining the plates.

"accordingly as i had been commanded i went at teh end of each year and at each time i found the same messenger there and recieved instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews respecting what the lord was going to do and how and in what manner his kingdom wasto be conducted in teh last days.

he "obtined the plates the urim and thummim and the breastplae. on sept 22 1827 haveing done as usual end of another year to the place where they were deposited..messanger deleivered them to me with this charge. that i should be responsible for them that if i should let them go carelessly or thorugh any neglectof mine i should be cut off but that if i owuld use all my endeavors to preseve them until he the messenger should call for them the should be protected.

"i soon found out the reason why i had received such strict charges to keep them safe and why it was that the messenger had said that when i had done what was requried at my hand he would call for them for no sooner was i known that i had them than the most strenuous exertoins were used to get them form me every stratagem that could be invented was resorted to for that purpose the persecution became more bitter and svere than before and multitudes were on the alert continually to get them from me if possible but by the wisdom of god they remained safe in my hands until i had accomplished by them what was required at my hand. when according to arrangements the messenger called for them i delievered them up to him and he has them in his charge until this day being the may 2 1838.

" the ancient record thus brought forth from the earth as the voice of a people speaking from the dust and translated into modern speech by the gift and power of god as attested by divin affirmation was first published to the world in the years 1830 as THE BOOK OF MORMON. "

"for the complet record , see joseph smith-history, in the Pearl of Great Preice and History of the church of jesus christ of latter day siants volume 1 chapters 1 through 6"
this was taken out of the book of mormon...joseph smiths testimony..not sure how you are surpose to put something from a book..so if done wrong please correct me..

Dont worry i believe u.... think u already gave title and author
so mr moroni eh? is that where we get the word moronic??????
honest question.

i always thought that the word comes from the welsh word for carrot.....Moron......so 'carrot-like'....suppose like calling someone a vegetable....

anyway, ive read the book a bit, couldnt get passed the inappropriate use of archaic language. just to lend it authenticity....
so didnt finish it, or get very far for that matter, just skimmed bits here and there....only talked to mormons when they come a'knocking....they believe that lucifer is the devil, is it referenced in the book, (page no, or book-chpt-verse) if so then it has the same flaws as the KJ bible....and certainly a fake.
cant believe people have been sucked in by this.

from what she told me we actually helped micheal fight the devil and helped over throw him..also that we are here on earth to learn how we should be in heaven..that pretty much everyone goes to heaven ...but sins do have a different punishement according to their act..they beleive that the devil is jesus's brother.. ..etc..
i havent read enough of it to know page numbers chapters whatnot..made no sense to me..like the bible rewrote..and yes it is very sad that honest ppl actually fall victim to this ...most of joseph smiths history that iv read bout controdicted the laws the bible gives..from what this lady told me they hardly ever use the bible..

now if i answer the question on lucifer devil fake...etc...then itll lead to me asking ...........why do you state that?

And honest people fall "victim" to Catholism, Judiasm, Islam, Luthernism, SDA's, and on and on and on... the ALL interpret the Bible differently--you're kidding yourself if you think they're all kooks.

Now, I do think that LDS is whacky and there's a ton of their doctorine I don't like or believe or subscribe to, but, they ARE Christians. However, I will say, to their true credit, they probably do better than ANY other Christian denomination of taking real and tangible care of their members and they have a VERY tight community. They have enormous families, and you won't find many mainline Mormons who are living in squaller because their temple does tend to take care of them.

I like to try to see the good and wonky in all the different denominations and off-shoots of Christianity. Mormon's have some uniquie doctorine. My own Christian denomination isn't big on using the Bible either, it's not terribly traditional, but my sect hasn't been traditional since the 1600's. I don't believe in the devil at all... do you feel sorry for me?

Show a little tolerance folks. They don't think they're victims, they are Christians, why do you feel sorry for them? Is it because they don't believe what you do? Or because what they believe is so close to what you believe and yet so unorthodox, that it makes you uncomfortable?

wouldnt call it uncomfortable...not at all.. has nothing to believeing the way i do....more like islam round the same concept..someone who decided they wanted to brake away from the word and start their own organization...bout the sum of it..islam and mormonism bout the same principle..either your in the word or your not..theres no in between...thats the word...if i make a tangit on this itll lead off topic...but the topic is the mormon bible...and its author....

Which is EXACTLY what the Vatican was saying about Martin Luther in the 1500's. So let's throw Protestants in there too OK?

Find out a little bit more about Islam too. There's just as much inbetween in Islam as there is in Christianity. Unfortunately, a lot of what we hear about Islam in today's media is about fundementalist Islam... a better comparison would be to compare the Islamic Al-Quida to the KKK (a primarily christian organization).

I know quite a few Mormon's who take issue with their own doctrine, just like you find a lot of other demominations whose members question the teaching. I know I do in mine sometimes.

See what I'm getting at here?

i could go with a list on such great length....but can sum it up in a few words if its not by the word its not of god..if its a unique doctrine it is not of god..dont get how ppl can say they beleive in the bible but yet dont live by it..no way is it possible..ppl can come up with all their own religions in some sneaky all alone way and not let no one know about it..and lead ppl off coarse because ppl tend to have itcy ears..like to suit their fleash main reason we have so many different doctrines and off the wall churchs that claim to be from god..if we are all of gods creation why would he have so many different ways? according to the bible there seems to be just one..and you have all these religious ppl who claim they are servering god and even own a few bibles but how many times to they actualy pick it up and read into it..how many times do they read along with what is being taught in the churches...theres more to walking with god then just going to church a few times a week...you keep suggesting to read into islam .. i have..they try to pull stuff like verses in the bible controdict one another but are to lazy to actually read what they are typing..only goes to show how off they are.

maybe what your getting at is you dont know what to beleive..

i do not question my teachings nor the doctrine i follow nor have another alternative book to go by...i see ppl like to claim that the kjv has flaws and all but can they prove these they would like to but god being almighty and who he is dont think he would allow this to happen...if ppl seem to think so then they are underestimating who god is..

So Mormonism is as much a fiction as the rest of Christianity, how is this news?

I actually responded to this and I have removed my original post.

What I'd prefer to say is, be tolerant, don't start a war of words over God, be careful about how you think of other people. You don't have to agree with their doctrine, but do not damn them and place yourself above them. Be humble.

I can reply to two points at once here.....both off topic but important in illustrating the false claims of the book of mormon - to have been written by an angel....

The King James Bible was written in English....it has been translated
from latin, which was translated from Greek, which was translated from Aramaic (mostly- although many gospels may have been written in greek originally)
The point is some of the stories that it contains have their origins further back in time...
meanings change.....here's the illustration...
Isiah 14:12.......U all know it its the one that goes ....Oh Lucifer how thou art fallen......

This passage has been taken to refer to the angel that fell from heaven becomming the devil, or Satan.
The poem which is the source of the passage is a lament which refers to King Nebuchadnezer....One of his titles was 'Morning Star'

Lucifer is a Roman personification of the planet Venus at dawn, heralding the dawn in u like. It had no evil connotations. Astrology.

On translation the latin blokes translated morning star as Lucifer and hey presto suddenly the poem-which is ancient- took on an altogether new meaning.
when the Biblical texts were purged This passage stayed because it fitted in with ideas of duality, and an entity other than god as a cause for suffering.

Other passages which appear earlier in history include the lord's prayer which , may well have its origin in the prayer to the Aten.....google seach it- im sure itll be there.

There are many other reasons why christianity, as it was passed down to us from Paul, edited by Theodosius.....banged into shape by Constantine, and refined throughout the ages, is a composite religion without a single clear source. This doesnt make it bad or essentially wrong, it seems to have been an evolution of philosophy and metaphysics that still goes on today, which is why many sects place less emphasis on engaging the bible itself- they are evolving.

hope this has been interesting, and hope i havent offended anyone too much- you are all entitled to your beliefs....as long as u do no harm ur ok

I realise that this info has been posted many times b4 and by lots of folk, it just seemed necessary to repeat it.

You would need to elaborate on the misconceptions, if it is simple things such as the name Lucifer, there is a simple answer. The Book of Mormon was written in terms Joseph Smith was familiar with, and would be understood by the people of the day. Thus Lucifer, is an accurate term as it was understood to be a name given the devil.
Once again more clarification may be necessary.

All the same, Mormon universe metaphysics follows the laws discovered by science. Spirit is the organized form that God created from the most simple state of matter, termed as "intelligence or the light of truth", and is merely a fine matter that may or may not have been observed by science, we don't know.
Yes.



I hope this has helped.