Is Atheism a religion?


If atheism is religion, "albino" is a suntan.

- "Atheism is a religion", for some strange reason, is often used by theists to criticise non-believers. A couple of examples from my email and guestbook:

"Do you have a belief that atheism is true? If no, then you're lying, if yes, then you are acting on faith. If you don't believe in God, you must believe in something or someone else. An atheist doesn't simply lack positive belief in God. The atheist has positive belief in the non-existence of God."

"The Religion of Atheism is for the totally unrational person, which is why Atheists account for less that 10% of the population. There are Ulterior Motives to Atheism, namely : Admitting the obvious of an INtelligent Creator introduces accountability and someone who is bigger and more important than oneself ...and, it impedes on the present less than desirable and/or immoral (incl. sexually, in most cases) lifestyle that the Atheist has chosen for himself. Both of these can be summarized by Pride."

It seems odd for a follower of a faith to try to attack atheism by saying it is also a faith. I think the reasoning is that if atheism is a faith or religion, then atheists have no cause to criticise other faiths or religions. One flaw in this argument is that if atheism were indeed a religion, then theists would have no reason to criticise atheism being taught in schools as part of religious education, or even the setting up of atheist-run schools alongside Baptist, Catholic and Muslim schools.

Somehow, I think voices may be raised in protest should that happen. =)

Alternatively, the idea is that atheists are hypocrites for attacking the faithful when atheism itself is a result of faith.

However, the big problem is this :

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION OR A FAITH!

Atheism, by definition, is the absence of theism. If you cannot say "I believe in a Deity/God/Supreme Being" then you are an atheist. If you are not a theist, then you are an atheist.

As mentioned in the Introduction page, there is a subtle but important difference between "believing there is no God", and "not believing there is a God". The first is a belief, the second is a lack of that belief. I don't know any atheists who "believe" God (take your pick, there are plenty) does not exist. All the atheists I know simply do not believe God does exist.

There is a big difference between positively believing that a thing does not exist, and simply lacking belief in it's existence. In many cases, atheists will say "That God does not exist", not because they choose to do so, but because, from the description of the God, it cannot exist due to contradictory attributes. In the same way that a square circle cannot (and therefore does not) exist, a God defined as (for example) all-knowing, yet cannot see into the future, cannot and does not exist because the definition is self-contradictory. If you describe your God with self-contradicting attributes which make it logically impossible, then I may safely say that such a thing does not exist as described. This is not faith - this is reason.

If someone asked you about unicorns, would you say "I believe there are no unicorns", or would it be more honest to say "I do not believe in unicorns"? These are two different answers. Nobody disbelieves in unicorns purely as a matter of personal faith.

Again, apply the same reasoning to the Gods of other religions. Example : if you are a Christian, do you believe the Hindu God Ganesh does not exist? Or do you not believe in Ganesh?

If you believe that unicorns do not exist, then may I say that you a member of the "No unicorns" religion? Is it a matter of faith that unicorns do not exist? Can I come along to your non-unicorn church with you tomorrow?

If you are a Christian, do you believe Ganesh does not exist? Why, then you must be a devout follower of the "No Ganesh" faith!

Do you see where this is going? [ Sarcasm may be the lowest form of wit, but it's excellent for getting a point across. 8-) ]

If me not believing in your God is a faith, then you not believing in other Gods is an equal faith. How many Christians do you know who would say they do not believe in other Gods as a matter of faith?

If my atheism with respect to your deity is a religion, then your atheism with respect to other deities is also a religion.

How does atheism differ from religion and faith? Let me count the ways...(Click here for article that includes this table, which would not transfer to this post otherwise)



Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the happy freedom from them. Declaring it to be otherwise, sadly, will not make it so.


Further Reading:

Why I am an atheist - An explanation of why I do not believe in deities.

Myths About Atheism




edit link addition

Very good point IMO. Anyone who says Atheism is a form of faith is just playing with words rather than making a logical argument.

This is the claim about athiests that is so biased that it is ludicrous. First I have no idea where they get the 10% statistics. Here's a link that shows the top 50 countries of atheism and pay attention to this quote: "...in Estonia in 2004, 49% of people surveyed said they did not believe in God. At the same time, only 11% of people in the country identified themselves as atheists."

I find the immoral lifestyle including the sexually really funny. Christians have a much higher divorce rate than atheists (link). 1% of the population in US prisons are athiests. If athiests were so immoral, why aren't they the ones commiting most of the crimes? I say the immorality belongs to the believers of God.

An atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An atheist thinks that heaven is something for which we should work for now — here on earth — for all men together to enjoy. An atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, subdue and enjoy it. An atheist thinks that only in knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to 'know' a god. An atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.

He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter. He knows that we are our brothers' keepers in that we are, first, keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now.

Great post GW .

I am tired of hearing "You're an atheist.. that's your religion".. over and over again.

To me, this is atheism:

Theism:

Belief in the existence of a God or personal god.

Adding a to the beginning of a word generally serves to negate said word. So atheist means no belief in God. It's twisting things to say: "You BELIEVE that God doesn't exist" (In the context of using "believe" as a faith or religion). Because then, everyone is polytheist. Christians are also A-islamic, A-thorist, and so on. The accusation that atheism is a belief is generally just an attempt to sidetrack an argument, IMO.

I hope you are aware of the wide number of religions that does not have a God?

Great quotes and very good points.

What is more rabidly defended than a person's religion, whether it has a "god" or not. Lately I've been playing my guitar religiously... (mostly metallica and slayer)

Edit: mistype used a "t" instead of an "n"

As a friend recently stated..."Religion = Fairy Tales for the *weak-minded*".Sorry...but any who call Atheists "unrational" are far less rational than the Atheists,since a belief in a religion is less rational than a complete lack of belief.

Man is made by his beliefs. As he believes, so he is. ----Bhagavad Gita

Religion can be reduced to one's personal system of belief or beliefs. Doesnt have to be organized. So are atheists absent of belief?


http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/religion



Main Entry: religion
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief
Synonyms: adoration, bent, ceremonial, church, communion, connection, conscientiousness, consecration, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, devoutness, doctrine, faithfulness, fidelity, godliness, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, persuasion, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration

Hinayanist Buddhists by the way are atheists yet are still a spiritual religion. Science is a doctrine and therefore also a belief system and therefore a religion in its own right.


Here is a sight of a group of organized atheists. http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/aboutus.htm

ATHEIST FOUNDATION OF AUSTRALIA INC (from the link)


ABOUT US



The Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc began in South Australia in 1970 when the members of the Rationalist Association of SA decided that a name change would proclaim their basic philosophy, which began in Greece 2500 years ago.

We can understand why primitive cultures believed that invisible beings controlled what we now call the elements and natural phenomena. With access to factual knowledge, there is now no excuse for believing in gods, fairies or any supernatural concept.

We live in a natural universe with known natural laws. Religion, based on belief in the existence of the supernatural, is dependent on the indoctrination of infants generation after generation, by parents brainwashed in religious cultures.

The confrontations and fighting today provide ample evidence of the unstable nature of societies, which endorse religious beliefs.

Infantile concepts seriously hinder the full potential development of humans in a world with problems that require logical thought.

Atheists find their motive for action in the needs and problems of their fellow citizens and consider that the worship of, or reliance on, imaginary supernatural beings to be a useless waste of time, energy and resources.

The Foundation is dependent on a small committee which meets monthly and is open to all members. We maintain a cordial relationship with similar organisations within Australia and overseas and with whom we exchange our quarterly magazine, The Australian Atheist. The Atheist Newsletter is issued for the other eight months.

It is recognised that the non-religious segment in society is on a steep increase but only through such organisations as the Foundation will it be recognised as a movement worthy of notice by administrative bodies.

We welcome feedback from thoughtful people and invite your co-operation and membership.







OUR PHILOSOPHY



The Atheist Foundation of Australia recognises scientific method as the only rational means toward understanding reality. To question and critically examine all ideas, testing them in the light of experiment, leads to the discovery of facts.

As there is no scientific evidence for supernatural phenomena, atheists reject belief in 'God', gods and other supernatural beings. The universe, the world in which we live, and the evolution of life, are entirely natural occurrences.

No personality or mind can exist without the process of living matter to sustain it. We have only one life - here and now. All that remains after a person dies is the memory of their life and deeds in the minds of those who live.

Atheists reject superstition and prejudice along with the irrational fears they cause. We recognise the complexity and interdependence of life on this planet. As rational and ethical beings we accept the challenge of making a creative and responsible contribution to life.







OUR AIMS



To encourage and to provide a means of expression for informed free-thought on philosophical and social issues.

To safeguard the rights of all non-religious people.

To serve as a focal point for the fellowship of non-religious people.

To offer reliable information in place of superstition and to offer the methodology of reason in place of faith so as to enable people to take responsibility for the fullest development of their potential as human beings.

To promote atheism.

I know this doesnt speak for all atheists. But to say that here presented before you isnt proof that atheism also has the makings of a religion in my view is just silly. It even wants to promote itself (convert others perhaps?).....and hey there is nothing wrong with that. If people wanna believe that and it feels right to them then good luck and live life how you see fit. But just know that no belief system can ever be exempt from the term "religion".

I agree and as for a positive beleif in non-beleif this does not make sense, either someone beleives in a god or they don't.
Not really as a true athiest does not beleive in a god, afterlife or spirit. Science is also not a doctrine it is a method and there are several different types of science too.



This groups is silly and obviously it's founder is a con man out to make some cash and get tax breaks. These guys only speak for themselves and not the rest of us.
Exactly

Just because a bunch of bible thumping chumps say I am religious doesn't make it so.



I have no specific beleif system so I guess I am exempt.

If I said I 'beleived' that Alice Cooper was a good singer does that mean it's religious?...

I think people who beleive in gods try to make us seem like the bad guy all the time. The definition of religion is stretched to unimaginable lenghts, it's absolutly ridiculus.

or one believes "gods" are a product of their believers. (to the tune of "a lie told often enough becomes the truth")

Strictly speaking, that is to say "i believe that the believer believes that what they have deified exists and is worthy of the deification".

I could not agree more with this.

Brave,
It would appear your own link, to the Atheist organization you refer to, and it's own Aims, outwits your assertion that Atheism may be constituted as a Religion.

To serve as a focal point for the fellowship of non-religious people.

It would appear you are assuming a new tact to reiterate an old assertion, that Atheism qualifies, by definition, as a religion. Even when your source, that you use to support your allegations states in no uncertain terms it's organizing as an Atheist organization is specifically to put forth a focal point of fellowship for non-religious persons.

But you would still argue that because Atheists believe there is no god, they may still be construed to be members of what qualifies as a religion.
Highlighting synonyms related to "Belief". (Morality, Observance, Preference). Atheism is anti-theism, anti-religion and of course, anti-deific. If the synonym for religion included belief, then believing in anything could qualify a believer as a potential religionists relative to what they hold in faith. However, belief is not exclusively synonymous with religion.

Religion(Synonyms):
adoration, bent, ceremonial, church, communion, connection, conscientiousness, consecration, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, devoutness, doctrine, faithfulness, fidelity, godliness, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, persuasion, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration.


There are a number of articles available regarding Atheist morality. I've posted one myself in these forums. Morality is not exclusive to religion, else the non-religious would qualify as immoral, because they are anti-theist and non-religious. So that Atheists hold faith in a sense of morality does not qualify Atheism to be construed as a religion either.

The reason belief is not synonymous with religion, is that anything anyone believed in could be argued to qualify as a religion. Imagine the potential in that one. Nor does holding faith in something, qualify that faith in that something to a religious standard, either. Faith: confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof.

Atheists do not believe in god. It isn't there,it doesn't exist, it is not proven to be that what is responsible for observable phenomena. That isn't a faith that it isn't there, because it is a fact that there is no thing that proves it is there.
Postulating all that exists, is because of a god , is offering an affirmation of faith that all that exists is so because of something that can not be proven in the first place to exist. And that then precludes what can't be proven to exist as a creator, from being what created all that is.

In other words, one can have faith there is a god, but that is conjecture, it is faith that god is a viable explanation for the source of all that is observed or created. However, there is nothing that proves that god exists. So if there is no exclusive evidence, or proof, that there is a god, all that exists can not be created by what can not be proven to exist as a creator.

Faith attempts to answer the question of why we exist, and asks us to take it on faith it is a thing called god. But that claim is not proof there is one. It's proof people can believe what exists is from god. But what the Atheist believes, and rightly so, is that there is no evidence god is the source for all that exists. And this is something religious people must agree with because faith precludes fact. Faith is not synonymous with fact.

So one can argue Atheism is a belief. But so is preferring lavender to blue. The fact is Atheism is anti-religion, it is not religion. And while one is free to continue to argue that's not true, when an Atheist organization, one uses to make that argument, says they are non-religious, one has a weak argument as they continue to insist that's not true. How does someone attempt to tell those that are Atheist and say they are non-religious, that they are wrong!? Just because they believe there is no god, that qualifies them as a religion? How do you tell Atheists that tell you they are non-religious, that they are religious!?

Easily enough, if Brave New Worlds insistence is any indicator. But that does not mean it is accurate, valid or intelligible. What it actually represents at this point is a desperate need to hold a faith of your own. That Atheism qualifies as a religion. And since you claim to be christian, you are precluded from being Atheist, so what exactly is your point in insisting those that tell you they are not religious and live that lifestyle, are lying to themselves, because you choose to hold faith, and believe, they are mistaken by your judgment, and thereby qualify as a religion.

Don't get me wrong, you may continue to misrepresent what Atheism is, and continue to believe Atheists are religious. But if belief in something qualifies as a characteristic of religion, your religion would then be said to also include embracing delusion, in that regard, and in your own right. And while you may argue your point on these boards, that belief in no god constitutes a religion, even when Atheists tell you they are not religious, what you choose to believe is irrelevant to the facts of Atheism.

You can have faith the Earth is flat. However what is in evidence is what proves the Earth is not flat. Thus your preference to believe to the contrary, because you insist on believing Earth is flat, is then precluded from ever being a credible postulation.

Why don't you write that Atheist organization in your link, and argue your point of view with them!? After all, their mission statement and the points for their existing as an Atheist organization, qualifies them to speak from that point of view. If they tell you Atheism is not a religion and they are not a religious, are you going to argue that to? If nothing else, it would afford them an example of another aspect of the at large community they may need to address in their educational outreach. Because when the Atheist tells you they are not religious or Atheism is not a religion and you argue otherwise, as a non-Atheist, it is more of an affirmation of your ignorance and your insistence on remaining so, which precludes your affinity for truth. And that is something any Atheist organization that affirms an interest in providing support for the anti-theist, non-religious community, needs to know exists. So they can at least prepare themselves for the next hurdle in imparting specific accurate information, as to what Atheism is not.

Everyone has a religion - that is to say, Man is made by his beliefs. As he believes, so he is (thanks for that quote, bnw). For some atheists, that means atheism is their religion. But it need not be so. They may have the focus of their beliefs somewhere else (science, for example). Everyone has a religion, but the word 'religion' has such a negative stigma attached to it that no one wants it to apply to them (even Chrsitians say "Religion is just an organization, I don't have a religion, I have a personal relationship with God"). Everyone tries to distance themselves from such a dirty word as Religion, when the fact is everyone has a religion.

You may believe everyone has a religion, but I dare say if I told 100 religious people, that my religion is no god, they'd laugh me out of the room.


Religion has a negative stigma because it is defined by a particular affiliation. "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"

Atheism believes there is no causative agent, no super nature or purpose to the universe. Life is a phenomena, we are no better or worse than all that is perceived to be part of reality and no thing consciously or intelligently created all that exists including us.

It can be argued that because religion has a specific connotation, i.e. belief in god, it is fitting to say not believing in god is therefore not relevant to what is usually construed as being religious. At this point arguing all people, because they believe in anything, are religious, is a matter of significance. However in contemporary parlance religion, as is commonly understood, is specifically irrelevant to Atheism. Period.

People are free to call Atheists religious if they wish. And Atheists are equally free to call that foolish.

It would be tantamount to saying christians are atheists. Because they hold faith in something called god, but it is equally qualified to be something that does not exist, because it's never been proven to. And that is Atheism.

Yes, I can see that going over big time, if an Atheist said as much from the pulpit of any Baptist church, on Christmas eve. Oh yes! I know if I did that, the first thing I'd be called is religious, by that congregation in attendance. Wooo Hooo! No doubt.

The quote "Atheism is a religion if bald is a hair color" is stupid. Because bald people still have a hair color. Is a mullet even a hair color?

A better quote would be "Atheism is a religion if bald is a hairstyle". Because you can say that to have a hairstyle one would have to have hair.

I'm sorry but that quote just not make any sense to me.

If where going to stick with the idea that Atheism isn't a religion then we have to go with the idea that religion isn't a science.

But even having a bald head is considered a hair style. Or if you wanna get technical a head style.

That doesn't make them right. In fact they are the dumb ones for thinking so. Hinayanist Buddhism has no "God" and is still a religion.



But belief isn't truth. As leonardo once pointed out, when you believe you know something the only thing you know is your belief. Also no belief isn't truth for the very reason it is a belief. Belief is when you are not sure you know something or not. Belief is not knowing. Like many scientists they believe certain theories but are not certain of them, the evidence gives them reason to believe in certain theories.

Likewise creation itself is evidence enough for me that there is a higher force that constitutes for God, Tao or whatever you wish to call it that pervades the universe. This is my theory on what seems to me to be enough evidence to support it. I dont care to argue my point with the atheist people at that site that link. They are their own religion and are entilted to that. My point is that they can claim to be anti-religious all they like but they are religious to the point that they have personal and an organized doctrine that claims a basis for reality without a God/spirituality. This in itself is a very religious statement.

Again everyone has a morality and belief system.The morality and belief system that people hold whether it involves God or not can be considered their religion. Hinayanist Buddists have no theism yet are a religion. Would you deny this?

The group may say all they like about not being a religion because it is anti-theism but theism is not essential for a religion. Take Stalin communism, it easily can be considered a religion in its day because many people worshipped their political party. Anything that determines a way of life can be considered a religion. Atheism sits perfectly within that description.

To say we are not religious but have a philosophical outlook which influences our lives makes sense that you are excluding organized religion of the present and past. To to say that your philosophical outlook which influences your way of living (all beliefs influence the way we live) can never be considered a religion in itself simply because of lack of theism is just silly. One can be an atheist fanatic as much as a christian fanatic. \


Carl Gustov Jung: The word “belief” is a difficult thing for me. I don’t believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it—I don’t need to believe it.

Religion doesnt have to God in it. You can have a religion without the slightest mention of God. Atheism is a religion. Like for an example a christian religious group may be anti-organization and so form an organization to promote this view. Atheism is a religion that tries to convince everyone it isn’t a religion.

Atheists may say there is no God. But you have to define God first. What if God is defined as purified consciousness which is possible to do and therefore empirical???? God doesn’t have to fit into the description of a personal but transcended figure head giving out mysterious orders.

You say that God doesn’t exist and that there is no proof. That too is just an opinion that is part of your belief system which can be called your personal religion.

You may say that as a non-atheist that I am ignorant to argue that an organized belief system of atheism isn't a religion. But can you say it isnt a religion if you say you are non-religious? I could then say that, that affirms to me your ignorance in not seeing them as a religion.

My faith is based on trust with the mystics. There is proof that they had mystical experiences, they wrote them down and said anyone can attain what they have attained and so it is up to the person to undergo certain conditions and verify this for oneself. Mysticism or the perennial philosophy is not faith based on no proof. It takes much effort to see their proof but it is still there all the same.

Also I fully admit that all opinions, beliefs, religions qualify as delusions, even my own current christian one. They are only held as means to higher ends and never an end in itself. I know Buddhism, Atheism, Hinduism and whatever belief system out there is delusional. Opinion or belief can never be "Truth" no matter how theoretically correct they are, for the very reason that they are "beliefs" and "opinions". Even the belief in mysticism is delusion because it is a label or belief system. I’m not saying religion is right and atheism is wrong here. I am saying that both qualify as religions because both are belief systems. And as we both have seen, both can become organized and systematic in their beliefs as an institution

Everyone believes in consciousness or has faith that it is there. But can anyone here tell me what it looks like, tastes like, smells like, feels like, sounds like??????????????????? I equate God with consciousness. Do you believe consciousness doesn’t exist??? I’m not saying that if you say god doesn’t exist that you are saying consciousness doesn’t exist. I’m saying what you define as God is only one version. And also that there are things out there we take for granted or don’t question because our belief in them is unconscious, like consciousness.

We all know we have it and would call someone stupid for not saying it is there. But can you draw a picture of what consciousness looks like in itself, or find a picture of it and post it in this forum????

Also I am Christian. However most mainstream christians consider me not christian because I interpret the bible differently. I god to be all possibility and that also includes a universe without a God. When have I ever been dogmatic on any issue??? I have spoken for abortion, I have spoken for religious tolerance and the need to assimilate wisdom whether of the christian docrtine or not and this includes the religion of atheism.I have never hesitated to say that homosexuals are just as christian or worthy of god as any hetrosexual, look up any thread and I have always maintained this. I even fully admit that jesus probably didn'tt exist in real flesh and blood.

I know you probably think im being dogmatic on this issue but i dont see that because I have made good points. You say religion means belief in God and only belief in god. I have pointed out that religion can be reduced to a belief system. All religions have some truth in them and all are liable to error. Even science has made mistakes. So what? I hold no grudge against science in fact i am largely interested in it's discoveries.

Mahatma Gandhi: Religion which takes no account of practical affairs and does not help to solve them, is no religion.

Can atheism be exempted from thsi statement? Does atheism try and take into account practical affairs or not? Atheism is a religion in it's own right because it tries to define reality and its environment and tries to describe man's relationship to it with a non-spiritual doctrine.

Exactly.

The only difference between Atheism and Theism is in the specifics. At their core they are the same. They are both beliefs pertaining to the "big questions".

There are differences between a Van and a Truck...but both are automobiles.

Again if Atheism isn't a religion then Theism isn't a science. But that isn't accurate is it?

Well put. Though I don't get your last sentence. There are theologies that arnt considered scientific and there are some that are like hinduism which has alot in common with quantum physics.

you two sound too dualistic!

atheism is not a religion. it is a lack of a belief in a deity.

that is in every regard separate from what atheists "believe" to be the answers to the "big questions".

you are making the grave error of assuming that a lack of belief in any gods immediately must mean a belief in, in this case, "science".

this an overly simplistic and (like all dualistic approaches) faulty.

I know that being Atheist doesn't mean you believe in science(even though that is common perception).

There are religions that do not believe in a deity. Technically they are Atheists but they are still a religion because they try to solve the "big questions".

The trouble with this debate is that there are two different views on Atheism in general.
1.By definition Atheism is just a the disbelief in gods and nothing else.
2.Common perception(or misconception) is that Atheism is a disbelief in gods and any type of spirituality and a belief in science.

Another trouble comes with the definition and/or perception of the word "religion". We can all come to terms that religion at its core is about solving the "big questions"...does it have to be through spirituality and/or deities that we do this though. If we try and solve the "big questions" through science is that not religion? We are all still trying to answer the "big questions" just through a different method.

So is a religion:
1. A system to answer the "big questions"
2. A system to answer the "big questions" through spirituality and gods.

I think this debate would be a little easier if we had a better understanding of the words "Atheism" and "religion"...and the dictionary doesn't count because what a word means and how it is used is to different stories...gay doesn't mean happy anymore and something "being cool" has nothing to do with temperature.

Man, everytime I read this thread the song Freewill by Rush keeps playing in my head.

Ignore me.

Hmm...

The original meaning of the word which gave us the word "religion" meant "to bind together".Which technically means that anything which binds two or more people together can be considered a religion.But...that would mean that there are a whole lot of religions,due to things like book clubs,car clubs,motorcycle clubs,movie clubs (like fan sites...etc.)...the list could go on and on.Under this meaning...then yes,Atheism could be considered a religion...so could Science.

Yet the modern day usage of "religion" implies the belief in a deity or a higher force or power.In this instance,you would have to say that Atheism is *not* a religion...due to the fact that Atheists do not believe in the existence of a deity or other power which is responsible for everything.It is this lack of belief (since Atheists would rather spend their lives in more useful or better ways which they do not see as being useless) that defines Atheism not as a religion...but as a personal choice guided by personal experiences or by rational thought.

I think a "higher force of power" has more to do with religion then deities. because there are recognized religions that do not worship deities.

Believing in a "higher force of power" could be applied to Atheists and/or science. I could say that Evolution or the Big Bang is a "higher force of power".

I think many Atheists will agree that their are stronger forces at work in the universe that are above humans...but not in a spiritual way.

Or does religion have more to do with worship then belief? I could believe that God exists but I may not worship him...is that religion?

I don't think you can call this a religion..But these's people do have a right to think and feel this way if that's what they choose, I happen to disagree with it...But i also don't feel i have the right to preach to anyone unless they come right out and ask me a question about my religion....

Hinayanist Buddhism doesn't have a deity yet it is still considered a religion.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=atheism

atheism: 1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Man is made by his beliefs. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita


Brave new world's dictionary:
Atheism= the religion that believes there is no God.

You sound overly simplistic as well. Religion doesnt always imply a belief in a deity.

My mother is an atheist. For her, atheism is an active non-belief in God, the belief that God does not exist. She considers this to be her religion. She believes that non-belief is active because her non-belief defines her life, and therefore is not passive and lacking in effect. For her, God does not exist, and her life has evolved around that belief. So the point she would make (or rather, has asked me to make on her behalf) is that whilst not all atheists would consider their belief or non-belief to be a religion, there are atheists who do consider that their belief that there is no God shapes their life and the way they live on a day to day basis to such an extent that they would consider that to be a religion, in so much as it is a "way of life" or "code for living". She is not alone in this belief. So, she suggests that, just as Christianity has many branches and not all people who believe in the existence of God are considered to have the same beliefs or are given the same labels (evangelists, catholics, etc.) that atheists are not all credited with the same beliefs and that separate groups are acknowledged... including the group which believes that God does not exist, and therefore bases its life on a defined belief structure which is non-spiritual but a way of life and therefore its own religion.

Personally, I believe in God but I do not go to church or worship him. My life is defined by my belief. But friends who are Christians have informed me that I have no religion. They have informed me that religion is a way of life, a conformity to a set pattern of beliefs which are recognised en masse, and that my faith in the existence of God is not enough to make me religious. That definition is flawed, but seems widely held.

I know about Hinayanist Buddhism. However that is not Atheism. Nor is it even closely related to what Atheism is. Hinayanist Buddhism was a religion. But as you can tell by that link description, it teaches one may attain salvation through their own efforts.

Atheists don't believe in a savior, nor do they believe in anything for which they would need saving from. Atheism goes much farther than just not believing in a super natural creator, or god. Atheism is exclusive of religion, because of what it does not believe in.

If you actually believe belief qualifies religion, then the church of the flying spaghetti monster is valid. Belief cherry vanilla ice cream is superior in flavor to that of vanilla, living one's life preferring that ice cream to all others when one enters a Baskin Robbins, buying half gallons and sugar cones, so as to observe that custom of eating cherry vanilla ice cream, makes cherry vanilla ice cream representative of a religion.

If what qualifies religion, is articles of belief, then what proves Atheism is not a religion is what it does not believe in.

You can call Atheism a religion. But that does not mean Atheists shall take you seriously. And trying to argue them into believing they're wrong, won't work either.

I was being simple in words, not in meaning.
Indeed religion does not imply belief in a deity,
nor does belief in a deity imply a religion.

Now you define atheism as a religion that believes there is no god.
the problem with this is that most atheists don't go around thinking about there being no-god.
they don't say "thank no-god", or "no-god bless you"
deification is simply NOT a part of their life.
As such, your definition in is invalid.

take a look at what wolf wrote. the origins of the word are important. Religion is a binding of people together, to their origins. Having a group of people agree on what that origin is not provides a loose binding at best, and fails to provide the foundation of a religion. Now perhaps a subgroup could agree on enough (not enough "nots" that is) to form a religion, and part of that would on the surface be indeed the lack of a deification of anything, but what would define it is what it does include (ex salvation, code of ethics, rituals...).

Your loose attempt to make a religion of atheism, as GW points out, defines everything as a form of religion, making the term useless. How is it benefitial to identify christianity as a religion if the term also defines a random gethering of people for a meeting on some issue?

i generally don't get into this to much but i agree with you Doc, ther is no doctrine either as far as i know in athiesm, its a letting of dysfunctional ideals in my opinion...

BNW, the greatest complexity can be seen in the greatest of simplicity, that is why masters IMO wrote in a way that a frog could understand the meaning....donot confuse simplicity with lacking merit or value......Au contraire does a sunset ever lose its breathtaking appeal??? Imagine the complexity in u the dynamics that go into making it so simplistic and breathtaking..


i used to hear alot if you really want to get it ,learn of nature that is , look to nature ...it will be your best teacher.....the funny thing is you let go of the words, the philosophys not add more.... simplify seems to be the key word....

At the least atheist humanists recognize that they are a religion

Religion is latin for : to bind strongly

Doesn't necessarily have to mean to one's origins. It could be to an ideal like atheism, hence making atheism a religion.

I don't speak for Atheist humanists. But I am sure they appreciate your speaking for them.

Atheists and many of them though not all believe in science. Many believe that there is no God or believe that they need to break away from spirituality. To say that atheists have no beliefs is just immature. Everyone out there has his or her beliefs. Atheism is not exempt from that.

And yes cherry vanilla ice cream also represents a religion if you want to put it that way.

Man is made by his beliefs. As he believes, so he is. ---Bhagavad Gita

We all have our own belief system hence we all have our own religion.

Atheism believes that in what it does not believe defines it's beliefs........It is a religion in it's own right.

brave,

it does indeed tie to one's origins. this is in fact arguably a critical element of religion.

without it, you render the definition meaninless and useless.

ex)
i volunteer with a few wildlife conservation organizations.
i go to general meetings (meeting the requirement of rituals)
i participate in defining the purpose and activities of the groups (encoding and adopting doctorine)
i share some common references with the other members, thus binding us together.

by your definition, that would make me the member of several religions!

ridiculous!

My gf has a particular television show she "must see".
She enjoys discussing the show with other people.
It acts thus, as a binding agent for her to others of a similar interest in the show.

by your definition, the television show is her religion!

ridiculous!

my cats share an affection for dawn.
It is the only time they are really drawn together throughout the day,
when they perform their ritualistic exchanges and territory confirmations.

by your definition that would make sunrise their religion.

ridiculous!

Not her religion completely but part of her religion if you like. Anything that determines your way of life can be considered your religion . Also the "word" religion does not mean to bind to one's origins. It means in latin :to bind strongly. If by that definition it makes you a member of several religions then it does. Like my beliefs are shared in both christianity, hinduism, buddhism, taoism, sufism and the humanist manifesto.

Gandhi once said this when he was asked whether he was a hindu: Yes I am. I am also a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist and a Jew."

Atheism is not a belief "system" its a belief that there is no god. Do you call people who don't believe in Santa Claus members of a religion????

Are people who understand that Harry Potter is a fictional character religious people as well?


Give me a break.

as i have stated, a critical element is the binding to one's origins.

Religion answers what is the commonality that holds a group together, not just now, but historically - the origins.

this is why religious teaching include a defining of origins where otherwise this would not be necessary.

for a group to have long-lasting bindings, it requires long-lasting bonds.

Without this element, you render the definition (the one you put forward) worthless as it adds nothing to the clarification of oneself!

lets see,
lets say person says (making this up as i go): l believe in purple people eaters, raw meat diets, watching sports and drinking beer. l love donuts and fast cars, and the more the women the merrier. I subsribe to playboy and playgirl, muscle and fitness, modern woman, sever self help mags. I have pet beetles, but want dogs banned from society. I think everybody should be forced to wear pink on fridays, and big brother is a good thing, but i don't want government interfering in my life.

to you, their religion is: <the exact same thing>

which is saying NOTHING.

Yes but the word itself does not mean that. Also it is arbitrary to apply it to "one's origins" one can for example have the origins of christianity and go off to become a buddhist or hare krishna. One can be christian and go off to become an atheist.

Most ideals come from historic religion but not all the religion is organized like hinduism for an example and so can equally mean ones personal belief system which may include what that person doesnt believe, in fact the root of the word has more to do with the individual being linked to the cosmos than to do with organization. The latin root of the word religion, religare (to bind strongly). No mention of organization there (though the term can be used for it. The word means "to bind strongly".


Well not all religious teachings include this. Ramana Mahrashi and many of the zen didnt teach this. They were more concerned with "The here and now". Again you keep linking religion with organized religion. There is a difference between the two.

Not always a new group may form out of a new belief system to oppose an old one and that ideal itself being new and also a novelty but powerful in uniting the people (like communism) can bind people strongly. Again religion doesnt have to imply a belief system that is ancient. It can be new and doesnt have to require theism. It can be atheism.




Yes this also would count as your religion if you had enough conviction in it. If you as the word implies "binded strongly to this ideal" then it would be at least part of your belief system and hence part of your religion.

BNW may i inquire as to why you insist athiesm is a relgion, True is a athiest , doc was once and so was i we are telling you it isn't a relgion, a label maybe but religion no.....Where is this coming from????

You are taking aspects of peoples beliefs and disbeliefs and saying that is their whole belief system and then saying it is or isnt their religion. Everyones belief system in general is their personal religion, whether it includes harry potter or santa clause.

Because one's religion is ones beliefs or disbeliefs. And so since atheism fits in that catagory it can be included as a religion. [b]The word religion is latin for : to bind strongly.[/u] As I have seen and witnessed many people are strongly grouned in their atheist beliefs (not that there is anything wrong with that) and I have observed that there is the atheist humanists and the ATHEIST FOUNDATION OF AUSTRALIA INC.

So like spiritual religion, it can be an organization or one's personal beliefs or disbeliefs about spirituality, science, philosophy, social views etc.

Atheism can also be applied to organized belief or disbelief or one's personal beliefs or disbiefs about spirituality, science, philosophy, social views etc.

They are the same thing in essence.

Man is made by his beliefs. As he believes, so he is ---Bhagavad Gita

brave, is there a longer lasting organization apparent to man than the cosmos? "strongly", "long lasting".... and where are those things that are not, like communism?

and no, a personal belief system is a personal belief system, not a personal religion.

All i see you doing is attempting some clever wordsmithing (which rather than bring athiesm into religion, renders religion a useless term).

I must ask why you feel compelled to persue this.

Bravey, relgion according to word web:A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny, ..End of story athiest is not a religion...

Because it is so logically true. Again religion doesnt have to be an orgainzed belief system about spirituality. It can be something like communism because look how "bound strongly" to this ideal the masses were. Stalin was anything but spiritual or a theist. No organization can out live the cosmos.

Belief system =religion

relgion= belief system

The belief system canbe personal or organized.

Main Entry: religion
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief
Synonyms: adoration, bent, ceremonial, church, communion, connection, conscientiousness, consecration, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, devoutness, doctrine, faithfulness, fidelity, godliness, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, persuasion, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/religion
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism

atheism

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Also I have watched documentries inwhich an old woman from russia felt more emotional comfort visiting a musseum of Lenin than she ever got going to church. In stalins days (this is juts an example) communism was something new and bound the millions of masses together. Same with hitler and Nazism many people in germany showed zeal for this new movement like that of religious zeal. Many of these comrades were binded strongly together by this new novel idea.

Why is it so hard not to see that atheism is itself a religion?

Hinayanist Buddhism doesn't believe in a supernatural power that controls human destiny. Yet is a religion..........

what you overlooked brave, is that communism and nazism both also provided a connection to origins.

indeed there can be religions without deities, but that is different from saying not having a deity is a religion.