perhaps, at some level this is true, but only in that ever fleeting moment.



It would an interesting series of events that led to such a conclusion, but the rarity of such occurances would not produce gratitude. Appreciation in each moment is about it.



nothing like a little creative work to avoid one's mortality.



to be expected to be eternally grateful is indebtedness. (at best)
when the entity forced the debt upon you, that is tyrany.
when the entity claims you owe him for "all he did for you" when all he did was for himself, that is playing the "guilt" card.

ahhh.... the abrahamics, the prototypes for dyfnctional relationships.

Um, that isn't forced guilt or appreciation. Indebtedness, no doubt. No way you can pay something like that back, hence the appreciation.

And no, it's not forced. In fact, I don't believe that forced worship is really worship.



"dyfnctional" keyboards too, no doubt.

dysfunctional indeed... i am typing on the floor tonight.

now let me ask you why I should be indebted or have to pay anything back if somebody decided to do something of their own accord? On the flipside, what characteristics does it display of the "saviour" who is expecting some kind of repayment for his less than selfless act of saving you? "here i come to save you, and you get no say in if i save you or not, and after i have imposed this saving on you i own your backside"

Is this your OPINION (as you state here \/) or do you have proof?

Actually, the saving is NOT being imposed on you. You are free to choose eternal death. But those of us who have chosen to accept salvation are also free to express our gratitude. We choose to express gratitude for that unpayable act through worship.

This sounds strangely familier. I have this relationship with my mother, to a tee.

*sighs* I hate using this analogy but.
If there was a deadly disease going around and soon everyone in the world had it, then someone paid a lotta money for a cure and one was invented. Sin is the same way, we are infected with sin and there is one cure which is Jesus Christ, now with the disease would you take the cure? And if so then why not take the cure for sin? Hell is not a punishment, it is a result of you being infected with sin and not taking the cure, just like with the disease, the consequence of you not taking the cure would be your death. Do you get it?

actually, mr pres,

the way i see it "sin" is not real. It is just a classification of actions.

Nobody is infected with sin, but people certianly can be infected with dogmatic beliefs that cause them to think they are infected with "sin".

So, the cure is to rid ourselves of the root cause of the disease. The faulty thinking that sin is real and an infection, and the ideology that this is a part of.

*sigh* I don't want to use your analogy but...
If there was a deadly disease going around and soon everyone in the world had it, then someone figured out where this disease was coming from and finally had a cure for it. Religion is the same way, we are infected with religion and there is one cure which is rational thinking, thinking for oneself, finding the answers within oneself rather than within the writings and proclamations of men with an agenda, - now with the disease would you take the cure? And if so then why not take the cure for religion? Belief in hell & punishment in some afterlife is a result of being infected with religion and not taking the cure, just like with the disease, the consequence of you not taking the cure would be the living of your life under false pretenses. Do you get it?

To everyone else, I'm not trying to demean your beliefs, I am just illustrating that there are two sides to every fence and am simply using Mr. Prez analogy to show HIM this other side.

Cheers & Peace

Guardian

So then you want to be in denial? Cause you call the thought of sin faulty so in order to rid yourself of that you create a false world in which sin does not exist? What do you call it when people do wrong?

what is "wrong"? It is nothing more than an opinion based on perspective.

Nobody does "wrong" from their own perspectives. They are doing what is "right" for them from their perspective.

There is no denial that a multitude of actions occur which when judged through the hardwired justice schema within the human brain get classified. Thus the animal sees "right and wrong". This is simple animalism. Religion feeds off animalism, it is animalistic.

I shed my fur long ago.

Really? You never felt guilt at doing something that hurt somone else, even if the hurt was accidental?

look up the definition of guilt and you will have your answer.

I didn't ask if you were guilty, I asked if you felt guilt. Different.

Boy your condoning murder left and right. So if murder is right to me then I have the right to do so? Dude your crazy.

iams, look up "guilt" not "guilty".

pres, i am not condemning nor condoning any action of an animal. Animals are what they are. You will find that a stasis is reached within each system. Sure you have the "right" to murder if you can/will if that is what you are.

Oh I see so it's ok to kill cause we're animals and your just some "higher being" watching the animal planet and to you if one animal kills another it's ok? SO then by your analogy if someone killed you they have every right to do so? That's sounds like your condoning murder dear friend.

not condemning nor condoning.

if an animal tries to kill me, i will defend. The outcome determined by the capabilities of the two involved.

Hiding behind definitions to avoid answering the question. OK, I get it.

hiding? not at all. look up the word and you have a clear answer.

See it's your constant condoning of murder that I would have people like you put to death for....because with that mindset you have the potential to become a murder and convince others to do so with you animalistic logic.

and just like that you demonstrated what I was looking for.

I do not condemn nor condone murder.
If you read through my posts you will see i view "killing as killing".
If you read the meanings within the posts that reflect me you would see I do not kill anything. Of course it says I am capable of killing.
Yet you would so willingly kill me because I am capable of killing, something that is a part of the human animal, that is just as much a part of you as I.
Animalistic logic indeed! That is why it has always been a part of every human and every human construct.
If you can not face what you are than you are the danger as demonstrated in your willingness to perform the irreverasable act of killing out of your limited understanding and inability to see yourself.

Denying what you are will not make it go away.
It will however allow it to lay dormant and leave you unprepared to face it.
Thus it rises up and you strike with all your "justification" in error.
And afterwards?

Shall we apply your approach to you?
Should we sentence you to death for preaching a religion that does exactly what you claim I might do?
An overused word befits you so well: hypocrite.

Listen, I am not an animal, I am a human being. But so far you have condoned murder and the fact that you do not see that shows that you are a danger.

Human beings are animals though. Mammilias, primates... right down to the nitty gitty.. animals.

you are an animal. Quite more than you are even aware of.

more importantly though, you have demonstrated you are quite willing to kill, far moreso than I. So who is the danger here?

geez, again someone thinking they are not an animal? what do schools teach these days? wow.....however since ya'll were talking about killing ... i would say in the right circumstances anyone is capable....anyone ...

sense

He's not an animal Bacca,
Didn't you know, he's the child of an illusionary entity.

How can humans not be classified as animals?

We give placental birth, nurse our young with breasts, keep our body temp. regulated internaly, made up of the same basis as others.. Basicaly, Mammilia. (save for a couple out there in Australian land that lay eggs)

We have blood like every other animal out there. We have a skeletal structure made up of calcium and such like most other animals out there.. (Most as in not all.. bugs and such...) Made up of multible cells... have muscles, skin, fur (well we call it hair... but it's still fur)

Humans, if anything, are a pack.. or sociable animal. We like to be in groups. That's pretty much apart of who we are as an animal. Protection from preditors back before humans were more then simple primates in the wilds of africa.

Well.. that's (simply) what I learned in school. But that was .. 10.. 11 years ago. I know alot of people these days don't want their kids learning about this stuff anymore.

Like I said, the fact that I do not believe humans are animals is at least in part due to the fact that I am a Christian.

Heh.. If you wish. However, I know a few christians out there who have room in their theology to understand that humans are animals, and are an evolved primate.

Sure you don't.. but, it's nice to know that some don't let their faith be the only deffining thing to their beliefs.

Try looking at it this way; Does not worshipping cause harm? Fear is the most powerful form of control. The fear of Hell could drive a large amount of followers to worship. Is this the secret reason for worship?

I never said it was the only thing, Silver. I even stated that my opinion was only in part defined by my beliefs.

Well..



made it sound like it was.

I am sorry but i disagree.

I don't think that Worship equates to love or respect.

One of the greatest problems i have with most forms of Theism is that they think that just because god is powerful and our creator we must worship him. This i believe is badly flawed.

While I agree that such a being would be worthy of respect i do not think that ANY being is worthy of worship. And i certainly don't think any being has the right to demand i worship it.


There are people I love greatly, such as my parents etc. I have a great respect for my Mother and Admire much of her qualities. Yet i do not worship her. I will obey her but i do not worship her.

My lack of worship for any diety is not due to a lack of respect or love or admiration for he/she/it/they. It is because i Love and Respect and Admire myself and humanity to much to bend my head.

I didn't read this entire thread but I love the idea the original poster had...because I had similar ideas myself.

If God existed I would not follow him, Ive read the bible and he is not a 100%
good guy. I would only worship him in the same aspects as I would a teacher or a president...I would not bow to him.

Andd for the record...Humans share every biological aspect with animals. We eat, breath, reproduce, etc. the same as animals. The only argument that could be made would to say that the human"soul" makes us more than animal...but sense the "soul" is non-physical are physical selves are animal.

Ahh but see... there are more religions out there then Christianity, Islam, and Jedaism that believe that not just humans have a soul.. but every animal, plant, and even rocks have one as well. X)

What is the definition of a "soul" anyways? Some kind of life force?

dictoinary deff, or personal opionon?

Either or I guess.

This is coming from the person that said they would kill their neighbor because they worshiped the same god....differently


Human being......you leave some room to talk on that part....but you (everyone) is still an animal.

The DNA sequences of humans and chimpanzees are 98 percent identical. Yet that 2 percent difference represents at least 15 million changes in our genome since the time of our common ancestor roughly six million years ago. Now a new computational technique has identified 49 regions that have changed particularly quickly between humans and chimps, and may have revealed at least one gene critical to the development of our larger brains.
Scientific American


The earliest known ancestors of modern humans might have reproduced with early chimpanzees to create a hybrid species, a new genetic analysis suggests.

Based on the study of human and chimp genomes, the scientists believe the split between the human and chimpanzee lines occurred much more recently than previously thought—no more than 6.3 million years ago and perhaps as recently as 5.4 million years ago.

Human and chimpanzee ancestors began branching apart on the primate evolutionary tree some 9 million years ago, but there are significant gaps in the fossil record. The new analysis suggests that a full split, which scientists call speciation, wasn't achieved for nearly 4 million years and might have occurred twice.
livescience.com


Like all other organisms, humans have evolved over time from earlier species, and share a genetic relationship to all other forms of life on Earth. The study of human evolution involves understanding the similarities and differences between humans and other species in their genes, body form, physiology, and behavior.

To understand human evolution one must understand where humans fit in relation to other forms of life. Modern humans belong to the group of mammals known as Primates. This is the scientific category describing such diverse creatures as lemurs, lorises, tarsiers, the monkeys of the New World and Old World, and also the apes. As primates we all share many characteristics, such as overlapping fields of vision caused by forward looking eyes (this allows for greater 3D vision), fine ability to grasp and handle objects in our hands, and enlarged brains relative to body size. The evolution of the Primates started in the early part of the Eocene epoch (about 55 million years ago).

By comparing humans and other living species, scientists have learned that humans are most similar to the large apes of Africa and Asia. Among all animals, humans and apes are the most alike in brain and body form, by having a complex social life, and in many other major and minor features, including the lack of a tail. The fossil record of several ancient ape species collectively called Proconsul shows that the split between the common ancestors of the Old world monkeys (above left) and the apes (above right) happened in the earliest Miocene, at least 20 million years ago.

Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas. However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes. This common ancestor is thought to have existed in the Pliocene between 5 and 8 million years ago, based on the estimated rates of genetic change. Both of our species have since undergone 5 to 8 million years of evolution after this split of the two lineages. Using the fossil record, scientists attempt to reconstruct the evolution from this common ancestor through the series of early human species to today's modern human species.

mnh.si.edu


On a note of Mice and Men......

Among the findings are that mice and human beings both carry about 30,000 genes. Differences within these individual genes -- the precise sequences of the four-letter DNA code -- spell out the obvious differences between the two mammalian species. On a letter-by-letter basis, the genes are 85 percent the same.

Comparing the two genomes provides an evolutionary history of the two species, traced out in the diverging sequences of DNA. Mice, compared with humans, are more richly endowed in genes for sex, sense of smell, and immunity against pathogens.
sfgate.com

The 2 greatest downfalls of man guilt and fear, no surprise religon is built around these ideas... Iamson I can speak for hyper and myself also we do not partake of guilt....guilt will eat you up actually destroy the human organism....those that have value for their life do not do things that would compromise their live or others, i would never teach my kids to feel guilty no way


SC excellent post on how we are animals..

Great post zandore.

Son, I'm curious.
If YOU are not an animal then what do you think, believe, pretend you are?
That we are animals is a known beyond a doubt fact.

Because we have blood in our veins does not make us "animals." I have never agreed with the human being being an animal, but it's as you wish. We are clothed in this skin with hair and our blood is red, we give live birth. We have the ability to rationalize. To use logic. We, have the capacity to reason--- If we are so close to the animalistic kingdom, why not, on the same token classify a gorilla as human?

i would say that the gorillia is a much better model than the homo Sapien...Many of our greatest ideas have come from animals....

what is it that is so wonderful about the animal man praytell?????Logic, reasoning ouch we are an embarrassment,IMO imaginary dietys , killing for ideas, especially of the illusionary kind using war to solve conflict, has managaed to destroy the very planet it lives on in record time and on it goes, has actaully made species extinct....Take off the I'm so sepcial badge for a sec and you'll see for yourself...We spend 400 trillion dollars on the militiristic industrial complex while many starve and go homeless....

I simply classify myself as human. I believe that unlike plants or animals, humans were created to have the capability to be made in God's image; a capability that will not be fully realized until we stand with Him in Heaven.

I am not convinced that our ability to rationalize is purely a biological activity, I believe it is one of the indicators of our difference from the animals.

And to think, how it would it be if there were no worship at all?

Animals do not sin of the flesh, or of the heart, unless your dog wants to have an affair with the dog down the street, while the hubby dog is on the road of course!! - Nor do they have the mental capacity to think* logically. They are primitive, we are human. The difference we understand the consequences of what we do, to us it's right or wrong- we feel and express guilt.... why would they worship? The burden of man is choice.

Wow.. we ware clothes.. that does not make us.. above... animals. That just makes use a different type. Users...

There are many other animal species out there that have the ability to rationalize and use logic. Dolphins, other primates, some felines and dogs as an example. Just because it's different then how we do it, does not make it any less dissmissable. (By the way... incase you didn't know... all but a few mammals give live birth as well. Oh and mammals have red blood to. )

Classifying a gorrilla as a human is like classifying a cougar as a tiger. Gorillias and humans are both mammals and primates. Just as Cougars and Tigers are both mammals and felines.

Ok, biology lesson.

Every animal, includeing humans, have a Scientific Classification order. (Taxonomy)
Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
Species

This link, useing whales as an example, will explain what these order means more

so to use the cougar/tiger refference...
Cougars:
KINGDOM: Animalia
PHYLUM: Chordata
CLASS: Mammalia
ORDER: Carnivora
FAMILY: Felidae
GENUS SPECIES: Felis concolor

Tiger's (we'll go with Bangal)
KINGDOM: Animalia
PHYLUM: Chordata
CLASS: Mammalia
ORDER: Carnivora
FAMILY: Felidae
GENUS SPECIES: Panthera (panther, leopard) tigris (tiger)

The only difference is the Genus Species... Cougars are Felis (like house cats) concolor (Cat of one color) and the Tiger's is Panthera Tigris... But all the rest, is the same.

The Gorilla's:
KINGDOM: Animalia
PHYLUM: Chordata
CLASS: Mammalia
ORDER: Primates
FAMILY: Hominidae
GENUS: Gorilla
SPECIES: beringei

Human's
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: Sapiens

Here we see that we're the same as Gorrilas right down untill the genus species. They're Gorilla beringei while humans are Homo Sapiens.


Basicaly, we are the same as the other primates... we just evolved to what we are today as the gorillas evolved as far as they have.. and the beauty of it all.. is they, like us and every other animal species out there, is still evolving into something else.

Just b/c my seventh grade science teacher said we come from a shoe, doesn't necessarily mean I believe we (I) come from a shoe. I've seen the human animal. I know what that is. I am no animal.

I am a person...an individual!!!!!.....INDIVIDUAL!!!! see that individual running down that street? what individual? That monkey, you mean?!! That's the only individual running down that street-- is it not??????!! nope, don't make sense to me, sorry!

Human:
Classification: Order Primates(primates) > Family Hominidae (humans) > Genus Homo