Don't know if any of you ever read any of Castaneda's books. These were popular in the 70's. I was fascinated by them because I was into the whole mind trippin stuff. I have never been able to duplicate his peyote experiences. He reported to be able to fly and encountered many strange beings in his visions, but I wonder if it is all just the effects of the drugs. Some say that mind altering drugs open the doorway into the supernatural, I guess that is why Indian's used to do it have visions. The only weird thing I ever saw was that the bull on the can of malt liquor chased me around the room. But that was all.

Ya, I read some of his books too. They were ummm... ya, whatever. I didn't see much that was new or revolutionary in his writings. As far as his flying and strange beings... William S. Burroughs (Naked Lunch) had that experience too, but he was hopped up on heroin. You start messing with your blood/brain chemistry and you're bound to see and think you did some pretty strange things.

Castaneda's books = sorta interesting, but nothing new.
Burroughs = way messed up, disgusting and worthless.

Don't do drugs m'kay?

We all do drugs every day whether we know it or not. Religion is the opiate of the people. Naked Lunch? Have to read that one. Was he doing "research" like Casteneda alledgedly was?

Never read Naked Lunch huh? It was vile, but have at it. I think of all the books I've read in my life (thousands) Naked Lunch might be one of the less than 10 I actually threw away. haha

No, he wasn't doing research, he was just high and thought what he was writing was profound on some planet.

Castaneda was a personal friend of our bishop, Rt. Rev. Stephan Hoeller. I am convinced that Mr. Castaneda's experiences were quite real.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

I hate to tell you this, but "Naked Lunch" was made into a movie. And I would agree, it is the most vile trash to ever condemn to celluloid. I've never thrown away a book, but I certainly have donated them to second hand bookstores. I figure, if someone thinks it's worth writing, they may have had someone in mind that would find it worth reading. Even if it wasn't me.

I like the Castaneda books for the most part. If they were indeed accurate accounts, that's a man that can never say he led a mundane existence.

Movie Link> Carlos Castaneda ~ Enigma of a Sorcerer

I liked the Naked Lunch flick. Never read the book. I like castaneda's books too whether they're real or not. I don't think he's a great writer by any stretch, though. But they are (if not real) imaginative and get the gears cranking in the ol' noggin.

That is pretty cool! Was Carlos a convert to any religion, since his adventures?

Very true but I wonder how many people only think of coffee, ciagrettes, alcohol, meds, etc? Try ever night when you go to sleep, dreaming and hallucinating are very similar, sleep/dreams are just a natural altered state brought on by natural "brain drugs". Are dreams real? But can they feel profoundly real? What happens to people that dont get this natural altered state?



People cant normally fly so I would have to go with a hallucination, encountering strange beings is also a fairly common experience. Are these beings real? I guess we'd have to define real, can they teach you things that you didnt know before, yes. Can they show you things from a perspective you hadnt looked from before, yes. Can they skin you, dissect you, take out your bones and eat you, yes that too lol.

Can hallucinogens give you a more open-minded worldview than many people have, very much so. Could be why drugs that kill none to very few people a year are highly illegal and drugs that kill hundred of thousands of people a year like cigarettes are legal, open-minded people are harder to push around. No one pushes me around and thats cause of my "Castaneda" Fridays.



More.

True! I remember in one of the books he allegedly "flew" with the Brujo who was "teaching him". But unless he tapped into OOBE's then it all must be hallucinogenic.

Ya, I knew it had been made into a movie, one that I didn't bother to see since I had already by that time thrown the book away.

I felt safe chucking that one into the landfil, I felt like I was doing the second hand book market a favor. haha

I know a lot of people think Castaneda is interesting, I came away from his books thinking I hadn't really learned much.

It's been along time since I read his books, but I found them very interesting. Like you said, it is possible that it was an out of body experience. If you believe that certain people can have paranormal experiences (as I believe), then it is very well possible that the drugs were unlocking or opening doors in the brain which in turn activated some of these experiences. Of course, experiences can be very subjective, especially when taking drugs, so some of the interpretations of these experiences may only accurate from a subjective experience. I know people who I (and others) believe to be psychic, and these people have told me that drugs can induce or activate such experiences, although they were not recommending that particular path to these experiences. In fact, I myself have had psychic experiences when taking drugs, but I will never be able to prove it, so I do not expect people to believe me, quite the opposite.

It would be an interesting course of study today especially with the Brain Mapping techniques they have. To see the responses of the brain while under the influence of a hallucinogenic. I wonder if it has been done? Those days are long ago for me, and I walked away from them indifferent to the experience. The Indian lore is what really intrigued me about it all, not the Timothy Leary stuff by no means.

Hello all.

It was a long time ago that I read Carlos Castaneda might have to dig them out and reread them. What I took away from the books was a mixed thing; while I did feel that his experiences were real (at least to him) they weren't the experiences that I wanted to have. The way Carlos went about opening the doors of perception to me leaves an individual too vulnerable. Perhaps I am too much of a control freak, LOL, but I never liked the idea of someone or something influencing/affecting my thoughts. I have always felt that you can of your own brain power open those doors, of course it takes longer but it's steady and then you have a stronger idea that what you saw/thought/experienced wasn't a by product of an addled state.
Warm regards, Mabon.

Ditto!

Woohoo TGIF lol. Its so true, some people have a very hard time letting go and enjoying the experience, I would recommend they find an experienced person or better yet a shaman to help them through this, if they are interested. Set and setting is also such an important aspect of the visionary journey, you must feel comfortable where you are and who you are with or you're aggitation will spill over into your vision which can snowball out of control. I for one have no problems letting go but also am very much in control at the same time, in my opinion the vision must be given free rein to go where its going but the visionary must also keep a level of control over their emotions.

I recall a moment of tension where a group of gnomes, looking very much of the garden gnome variety, came riding in towards me on flashing bright yellow flying triangles, they attempted to accost me with their chaotic chatterings, swarming around me their chatterings became more animal in nature and less like a language I could not understand. They seemed to multiply, the expressions on their faces took on a more sinister appearance and I had a memory flash from when I was a child feeding these gopher-rodent-like animals at some rest stop on the coastal highway in California on the way to Disneyland. These gopher like animals I was feeding surrounded me and started climbing on me to get at the food I was holding and it really freaked me out being 5 or 6 years old at the time. I immediately recognized the similarity of that memory and this vision, I was filled with a sense of power knowing why these gnomes seemed to be getting the better of me, I had figured them out and now they were going to pay lol. A fierce glare and a mental projection of their possible fate was enough to send them off on their triangles again. Eyes open, laughing hysterically, I managed to utter "the gnominator" lol. My girlfriend was once overwhelmed by "rows of folding lawnchairs as far as I could see", I have no idea what that was supposed to mean but it was the enormous amount of them that was so overwhelming lol.

I have read and are still reading carlos castenadas books. The books are not just a story, you have to put yourself in a vounerable state when you read the books. Don Juan, the Indian in the story teaching Carlos says a lot of things that I can apply to my life. I believe that these books are the best I have read and also the most influencial. there are a lot of quotes in these books that I think have great impact on the people that read them in my art.... if you are going to read a book from this series I recomend the first one, "The teachings of Don Juan: a Yaqui way of knowledge." if you still dont find too much interest in it read the third book next, Journey to Ixtlan the lessons of Don Juan....
[b]"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same." - Don Juan Matus

Hello all.
Ladybone, welcome to the forum.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I didn't enjoy the books when I read them because I did. But I did not (still don't darn-it) know a shaman or medicine worker and I didn't think that messing with something, particularly a sacred mind altering something would be a good idea for me at the time (or now for that matter) LOL! I do believe it to be sacred and respect that but also feel that there are many medicine paths.
Warm regards, Mabon.

I do not know whether to laugh or just say "Whoa dude!" But I agree, that each and every peyote button should have an advisory sticker on it that says, "Warning! Do not use unless under the supervision of qualified Shaman!"

Hi Ladies, yeah I agree it is not something I would recommend either. The more I think about it from the Indian point of view, I can understand why they were into it. Hallucinogenics are powerful and no doubt harmful. I wonder if the military ever used this stuff for their purposes in things like interrogation and other applications?

He practiced as a Gnostic Christian, even producing a Castillian version of our Gnostic Mass as a gift to Bishop Hoeller. Dr. Hoeller has lectures on Mr. Castaneda. PM me for links.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

Say what you will about Burroughs' writing (he was a literary surrealist), but realize that without his influence, the younger writers of the Beat movement may not have shined as they did.

Read the whole series of Castenada books years ago. They are presented to the reader as truth but (given my experience in the psychedelic world of the shaman) I would attribute most of his experiences to Old Man Peyote and the other substances he imbibed. Of course that is assuming that the work was not complete fiction.

The story itself reads much like the classic archetypal fantasy with Castenada as the wide-eyed innocent (Arthur, Frodo, Luke) and Don Juan as the iconoclastic wizard (Merlin, Gandalf, Obi-Wan/Yoda).

It does come across that way. It was not presented in the fashion we would expect of non fiction.

Ever hear of 'Psychic Driving'? If not...

Psychic driving

Psychic driving is a psychiatric procedure in which electroconvulsive therapy and psychedelic drugs such as LSD are used in an attempt at mind control. The procedure was pioneered by Dr. D. Ewen Cameron during the U.S. CIA's MKULTRA program in Canada. Similar techniques are alleged to have been used in the kidnapping and death of CIA operative William Francis Buckley by Aziz al-Abub, a student of Cameron's, in 1984-1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_driving


Project MKULTRA - Experiments

Central Intelligence Agency documents suggest that the agency considered and explored uses of radiation for the purpose of mind control as part of MKULTRA.[1] Other early efforts focused on LSD, which appears to have formed the majority of research as time went on. Experiments included administering the drug to CIA employees, military personnel, doctors, other government agents, prostitutes, mentally ill patients, and members of the general public in order to study their reactions, usually without the subject's knowledge.

The experiments often took a sadistic turn. Gottlieb was known to torture victims by locking them in sensory deprivation chambers while under the psychedelic influence of LSD, or to make recordings of psychiatric patients' therapy sessions, and then play a tape loop of the patient's most self-degrading statement over and over through headphones after the patient had been restrained in a straitjacket and dosed with LSD. Gottlieb himself took LSD frequently, locking himself in his office and taking copious notes.

*

Another technique was connecting a barbiturate IV into one arm and an amphetamine IV into the other. The barbiturates were released into the subject first, and as soon as the subject began to fall asleep, the amphetamines were released. The subject would begin babbling incoherently at this point, and it was sometimes possible to ask questions and get useful answers. This treatment was discarded as it often resulted in the death of the patient from physical side effects of the drug combination, thus making further interrogation impossible. Other experiments involved heroin, mescaline, psilocybin, scopolamine, marijuana, alcohol, and sodium pentothal.

There is no evidence that the CIA (or anyone else) has actually succeeded in controlling a person's actions through the "mind control" techniques that are known to have been attempted in the MKULTRA projects. The file destruction undertaken at the order of CIA Director Richard Helms in 1973 makes a full investigation of claims impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA


And before this is all dismissed as conspiracy, the term 'MKULTRA' has a tendency to do that to some....

Woman looks to sue for brainwashing at McGill

Monday, January 15th, 2007

Five decades after a McGill researcher subjected her to massive electroshocks, experimental drugs, and forced her to listen to hours of recorded messages as part of a U.S. experiment in brainwashing, a Montreal woman is seeking compensation from the Canadian government.

Janine Huard was one of hundreds of people who Dr. Ewen Cameron experimented on without their knowledge in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Last week, her lawyers argued before a federal court judge that she should be allowed to file a class-action lawsuit against the government of Canada, who funded the experiments jointly with the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

Cameron first treated Huard in 1951 when she went to see him for post-partum depression. She continued to see the doctor until 1962, during which time she served unwittingly as a participant in Cameron’s experiments.

As director of McGill’s Allan Memorial Institute, Cameron developed “psychic driving,” a technique that he hoped would cure mental patients by erasing their memories and constructing a new psyche for them. To this end, Cameron used electroshock and drugs such as LSD to “depattern” his patients, returning them to a childlike state and leaving them open to suggestions from recordings played over and over again while they slept. His work attracted the attention of the CIA who, from 1957 to 1960, funded Cameron’s research as part of the infamous Project MKULTRA, aimed at developing a mind-control technique.

Huard received $67,000 U.S. from the CIA in 1988 as recompense for her ordeal, but has been denied similar compensation from the Canadian government three times on the grounds that she was not fully depatterned. In 1994, the government handed out $100,000 to 77 of Cameron’s victims.

cont'd

http://www.mcgilldaily.com/view.php?aid=5757


My tax dollars hard at work, compensating people for 'mind control' experimentation decades ago. Gotta wonder too, why is it that governments ban psychedelic drugs that are relatively harmless when used recreationally but then test these same pyschedelics on unwitting people to cause harm? Oh thats right their ****ing hypocrite ********! So was it all a waste of time and money? No I dont think so, recently in the news...

U.S. interrogation may finally be put to trial

Something remarkable is going on in a Miami courtroom. The cruel methods U.S. interrogators have used since September 11 to “break” prisoners are finally being put on trial.

This was not supposed to happen. The Bush administration's plan was to put José Padilla on trial for allegedly being part of a network linked to international terrorists. But Padilla's lawyers are arguing that he is not fit to stand trial because he has been driven insane by the government.

Arrested in May 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare airport, Padilla, a Brooklyn-born former gang member, was classified as an “enemy combatant” and taken to a navy prison in Charleston, South Carolina. He was kept in a 2.75-by-2.1-metre cell with no natural light, no clock, and no calendar. Whenever Padilla left the cell, he was shackled and suited in heavy goggles and headphones. Padilla was kept under these conditions for 1,307 days. He was forbidden contact with anyone but his interrogators, who punctured the extreme sensory deprivation with sensory overload, blasting him with harsh lights and pounding sounds. Padilla also says he was injected with a “truth serum”, a substance his lawyers believe was LSD or PCP.

According to his lawyers and two mental-health specialists who examined him, Padilla has been so shattered that he lacks the ability to assist in his own defence. He is convinced that his lawyers are “part of a continuing interrogation program” and sees his captors as protectors.

*

The techniques used to break Padilla have been standard operating procedure at Guantánamo Bay since the first prisoners arrived five years ago. They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy-metal music. These same practices have been documented in dozens of cases of CIA “extraordinary rendition” as well as in prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.

cont'd

http://www.straight.com/article-73039/u-s-...be-put-to-trial



Wanna go for a drive?

Must add to this thread.
I have all of Castaneda's books, and have read and reread all.
To those of you who wish to follow him, or experience some of his writings, I caution you that deep involvement will cause some quite unusual happenings; in some cases, these cannot be denied.
Those who read the books, recall that drugs were used only in the beginning, when the foundations of the "real" world needed to be shaken and ultimately dislodged, so that a truly open mind was available to work with. Drugs are not necessary to accomplish those things Don Juan taught, merely an open mind and an ability (natural or learned) to self-control.
I began reading Castaneda when the second book was published. From that point, I guess I was hooked. One must remember that the first four books were written in the first attention, those later were written when he had use of the second attention. You'll notice a marked difference between the two, as the first few were subject to "scientific" analysis, while the second batch was not: those were more the reports of an observer/practitioner.
Since I had no access to a "man of knowledge" to attempt the practice, I needed to invent some method of accomplishing the program. Such need led me to a previously learned method of self control, Huna. Through the use of Huna, I was able to establish means of "stopping the world", and so forth. I was also able to accomplish some of the other aspects, such as assuming the senses of a hawk (seeing what they see, etc). The simple use of Castaneda's "recapitulation" provided interesting results, such as clearing my mind of the nastiness of Vietnam, and other subsequent emotional disruptions in my life. While I didn't bury myself, I used a similar approach without the full treatment; lacking the sequential time, I constructed a partial chamber where I wouldn't be disturbed and used the chamber at least daily.
Certain other of Castaneda's descriptions were also accomplished. During one period, I disappeared from my car while "meditating" at lunch: this was my common practice, to first eat, then meditate for the remainder of my lunch hour. I use the term "meditate" loosely, for lack of a better word. Anyway, the disappearance was not my act: a friend (fellow worker) wanted to show me a news article on that particular day, but claimed I was not in my car when he looked. I was off somewhere else (another world, perhaps?), but had no knowledge that I didn't exist here in this one. The friend caught up with me back at work and asked where the -- I had gone, and I insisted (of course) I hadn't left the car, which in my mind I hadn't, but he didn't believe me. Not exactly explainable disappearance, and quite unnerving, frankly.
Bi-location happened several times, each of those I left some means to identify that I had been in the second location. Each time I found the evidence that I left for myself.
After a time, I was able to shift the assemblage point to some degree, thereby shifting perceptions. Among those perceptions was the ability to 'see' energy. This can be accomplished, to some extent, by developing the "third eye" using means of the Eastern masters. Several books are available to facilitate this, but the result is not nearly as dramatic as the Castaneda "seeing".
I was also able to use Castaneda's methods as described in "The Art of Dreaming". While it required an extended practice effort (several months), it did work, and there were dreams that left me with scars, bruises, cuts, and in one case a broken bone, some of which have yet to completely heal. I would recommend caution in using this aspect.
There are other things that have happened, but this is getting a bit lengthy, so I'll leave as is.
Further, I must state that the only "proof" of any of these things is if one proves to him/herself. But the universe is definitely not as we like to think it is.

Very interesting post. May I ask when and how you leaned Huna? Did someone teach you. Huna could be viewed as shamanic knowledge, so I am curious.

I agree, the Indian lore was also what I found to be interesting. I would add to my earlier post that drugs are said to open the charkras, but natural means are generally prefered. My point being that my drug experimentation lead to much more than I anticapated. Not that I am recommending them or saying that will happen to everyone, I was young and a little wild and very curious at the time. Another point is that drugs may "open the door" to shamanic experiences, but there are other means of opening those doors and a experienced teacher would be the preferred method, and using natural methods would also be prudent.

It is of interest to me that things which affect brain waves are linked to 'paranormal-shamanic experiences'. Such things being drugs, hypnosis, and meditation. So perhaps it is controling or altering brain wave frequencies or brain wave patterns that opens the doors to paranormal experiences-shamanic experiences. And once these doors or have been opened through drugs, perhaps returning to such brain wave patterns become easier through other more "natural' routes, such as meditation.

I took a class called Mind Psi Biotics in 1977. The class was taught by Helen Bangs, who was apparently under the tuteledge of Max Long. I've also read the Long books, among much other material.
As to shamanism, Biotics treated Huna as more of a learned self-control, or usage of one's own capabilities, rather than the classical shamanistic aspects. There is a lot of material that deals with that, but I've tended to shy away from such things, and use the skills we were taught for my own purposes, among those self healing and helping others heal.
My understanding is that with a great deal of practice and a changing of one's own beliefs, it is possible to heal another by altering what we term universal truths. In a couple of instances (and with help from elsewhere), I've been able to accomplish minor healing, but haven't worked with it enough to claim more than that.

I'm going to guess that Fred Alan Wolf's The Eagle's Quest was on your reading list at some point.

Very interesting. I read and own a book by Max Long called 'The Secret Science Behind Miracles - unveiling the Huna Tradition of the Ancient Polynesians" I found it to be quite a interesting read, some astounding suff and very entertaining. The class you took sounds great. I have been studing (reading up on in my own time) metaphysics for quite some time and there is definitely truth to "paranormal" experiences and I do believe that people have the power throught the mind and energies to heal others, some however are more gifted then others. There is a lot I don't understand of course, but there is a lot more going on then science understands or can explain at this point in time.