I wonder if ancient civilations who believed in Dragons had found parts of dinosaurs. That would explain their belief. Also, they had no conception of extinction at that time so they must have thought they were still among them...

But also, there are hundreds of sightings and stories way back then about Dragons being slayed/seen. I guess they got extinct really quick!

Yes, dinosaur fossils are what most historians believe that inspired the dragon legends. People found the bones, had no explanation so made stories and legends about them.

The greatest scientists of those times wrote of dragons still living, and people recroded seeing them all the time. It was impossible for ancient people to realize the bonese were of reptiles. They could have just as easily thoought they were giant mammals, as we know some of the bones are today. There was nothing to give the ancients the idea of huge flying reptilian dragons unless they actually saw a living creature. In nearly every culture however, dragons are considered supernatural creatures connected with religion. Dragons then, are probably as real as a sup[ernatural creator God. And if we go back to the earliest known religious beliefs of Sumerian, the Heavenly god rode on the backs of dragons, they guarded his throne, the gates of heaven, and sacred trees in the Garden of eden. and when people thought they were too intelligent to believe in dragons, they turned them into swan winged human angels which apparently, to some people, are more believable then flying reptiles.

Devin,
Although peoople have claimed to see dragons for thousands of years, and ocassionally someone boasts of killing one, if they are normal, flesh and blood, mortal animals, we would have found some bones by nowl. But nobody has found a dead angel, yet Christians believe in them. But these people are unaware that dragons are heavenly creatures too, with far more sightings than any winged humanoid "angel".

Hmm........science at that time? It was the Dark ages. Any "science" back then would be seen as unreliable and altered by religion.

I wonder if it's possible that the various dragon myth's could be put down to a localized story that was passed on to to different generations and societies?

The thought occurred to me because of the recent rethinking of the Clovis first theory of North American colonization. I think that ancient myth's and stories are closer related than one might think, and that most may be "hand me down's" from previous cultures, that may have interacted at some point in the past.

It seems unlikely that cultures could come up with independant stories that are so similar without there being some common influence. There is no evidence for live dinosaurs past the Cretraceous period, so I don't think you can use a living, breathing creature as a source, unless it lived long enough to make contact with our earliest ancestors, and then left no trace of it's existence.


My opinion, anyway.

LOL
DC ur at it again, uve made this silly statement before. What GREATEST SCIENTISTS? name them....u mentioned pliny the elder, but not where in his work to find such a reference to a still living dragon. Pliny the Elder was no scientist, natural historian/geographer ok but no scientific method was involved. In fact NO ancient writer could ever be considered a scientist, let alone a group where someone could reach the preeminance of being considered 'Great'.

Herodotus mentions flying serpents but he is considered both the father of history and the father of lies...not a scientist, he often relates stories third hand and claims to have visited places he clearly didnt. (i know u didnt mention him) anyhoo the flying serpents mentioned are not related to dragons....he also mentions the phoenix and cyclopses...not a reliable source.

What people recorded seeing them all the time? snot like every village had one!

Again u are making unverifiable generalised statements which are daft.

Please provide EVIDENCE for the above statements, I know you wont or can't, youll just ignore this as you did last time....and to name drop Pliny again without refs that can be engaged is not enough. There IS NO eye witness account.

I was actually referring to scientists of the ancient world, such as Pliny the Elder, who described dragons. Although we think of dragons from dark ages stories they were equally commonplace in the ancient world as well.

One example of a near universal dragon myth, and the oldest comes from the cradle of civilization and involves "the great serpent-dragon" that served a higher God in "heaven" and gave forbidden technology to mankind and oversaw a garden called eden with sacred trees with supernatural powers. The most familiar version of this story is that of the Hebrew bible, but we see serpent dragons guarding sacred trees throughout the world. A dragon guards the Golden fleece that gives eternal life, and serves the God aries. A dragon encircles the tree of life in Norse mythology. Wise dragons "teach" mankind technology and spirituality in both the Eastern and Western hemispheres. It is all quite a sophisticate belief system to be simply based on a few bones. And what motive to say these bones were from highly intelligent creatures who educated their ancestors? Why would there be laws in China forbidding commoners to talk to dragons for they believed only the ruling class had this right? And this from the most sophisticated culture of the ancient world.

Some people believe the "dragons" were a kind of reptilian alien that assisted our ancestors. The Judao Chirstian religions, in the medieval era, turned the dragons into more acceptable winged human "angels" based on pagan greco roman gods. If there is an intelligence behind the universe, and our presence not simply an accidental mixture of the right chemicals, perhpas some large mesozoic reptile was "enhanced" with greater intelligence by this entity, to perform specific tasks, millions of years before a specific chimpanzee-like primate was also enhanced.

But if we are only an accident, dragons are probably only a very curious, universal myth, as would all other elements of our religions.

Thought you would ignore my previous post....knew u would mention pliny.....knew u would provide no reference to his actual work....

can u name any other 'Great Scientists' of the ancient or 'classical' world?????

ur claims are based on faulty logic.....
"its all quite a sophisticate belief system to be simply based on a few bones"..........

The link between dinosaurs and stories of dragons is quite likely....though like all stories it evolved. Became more complex. if u take an artifact -say a sword of iron- to a society who doesnt know the technology, what better than attribute to it some supernatural source, rather than reveal the technology....
and so the story becomes myth.

Snake cults which are evident across the globe often preceed complex cultures, their deities may in some cases become assimilated, or retained in the later social mythos as gods, elementals, monsters....

often dragons in different societies SIGNIFY different things. each must be viewed differently, it is not enough to lump them altogether.
Griffins occur in a number of societies in the ancient world....why are they less plausible?

bet u ignore the pliny thing again.....lol





Thought you would ignore my previous post....knew u would mention pliny.....knew u would provide no reference to his actual work....

can u name any other 'Great Scientists' of the ancient or 'classical' world?????

ur claims are based on faulty logic.....
"its all quite a sophisticate belief system to be simply based on a few bones"..........

The link between dinosaurs and stories of dragons is quite likely....though like all stories it evolved. Became more complex. if u take an artifact -say a sword of iron- to a society who doesnt know the technology, what better than attribute to it some supernatural source, rather than reveal the technology....
and so the story becomes myth.

Snake cults which are evident across the globe often preceed complex cultures, their deities may in some cases become assimilated, or retained in the later social mythos as gods, elementals, monsters....

often dragons in different societies SIGNIFY different things. each must be viewed differently, it is not enough to lump them altogether.
Griffins occur in a number of societies in the ancient world....why are they less plausible?

bet u ignore the pliny thing again.....lol

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm

This is a religious site I think but dayum! Seems like there are some pretty sure depiction of dinosaurs????

Tell u what mr Dragon dude, let me save u the bother.......

HERES WHAT PLINY, THE GREAT SCIENTIST HAS TO SAY ABOUT DRAGONS.....
sorry to diss pliny coz he is a gret read and provides a good insight to how Romans saw the world.....
NOTE how in every case Pliny is reporting hearsay......

Dragons licked the ears of Melampodes, and bestowed upon him the power of understanding the language of birds. [Book 10, ch 70]
Natural history....

and more....

It is India that produces the largest [elephant] as well as the dragon . . . of so enormous a size, as easily to envelope the elephants with its folds, and encircle them in its coils. The contest is equally fatal to both. [Book 8, ch 11]

Clearly a ref to Pythons.....His lack of info shows HE NEVER WENT THERE.




The dragon . . . watching the road . . . darts down upon [elephants] from a lofty tree. The elephant knows that it is quite unable to struggle against the folds of the serpent, and so seeks for trees or rocks against which to rub itself. The dragon is on its guard against this, and tries to prevent it, by first of all confining the legs of the elephant with the folds of its tail; while the elephant, on the other hand, endeavours to disengage itself with its trunk. The dragon, however, thrusts its head into its nostrils, and thus, at the same moment, stops the breath and wounds the most tender parts. When it is met unexpectedly, the dragon raises itself up, faces its opponent, and flies more especially at the eyes; this is the reason why elephants are so often found blind, and worn to a skeleton with hunger and misery. [Book 8, ch 12]

In the parching heats of summer, [elephant blood] is sought by the dragon with remarkable avidity. It lies, therefore, coiled up and concealed in the rivers, in wait for the elephants, when they come to drink; upon which it darts out, fastens itself around the trunk, and then fixes its teeth behind the ear, that being the only place which the elephant cannot protect with the trunk. The dragons, it is said, are of such vast size, that they can swallow the whole of the blood; consequently, the elephant, being thus drained of its blood, falls to the earth exhausted; while the dragon, intoxicated with the draught, is crushed beneath it, and so shares its fate. [Book 8, ch 12]

In the East, where there were no safe places of deposit for money, it was the custom to bury it in the earth; hence, for the purpose of scaring depredators, the story was carefully circulated that hidden treasures were guarded by serpents and dragons. [Book 7, note 34].

Æthiopia produces dragons, not so large as those of India, but still, twenty cubits in length . . . We are told that on those coasts four or five [dragons] are found twisted and interlaced together like so many osiers in a hurdle, and thus setting sail, with their heads erect, they are borne along upon the waves, to find better sources of nourishment in Arabia. [Book 8, ch 13]

HE CLEARLY NEVER SAW ONE>>>>>and ref. regards exaggerated tales of big snakes....or even CROCS ....easy to mix things up if uve never seen what ur refering to and just listening to tales around the campfire.......



The eagle . . . has . . . terrible combats with the dragon, and the issue is . . . doubtful, although the battle is fought in the air. The dragon seeks the eggs of the eagle with a mischievous avidity; while the eagle, in return, carries it off whenever it happens to see it; upon these occasions, the dragon coils itself about the wings of the bird in multiplied folds, until at last they fall to the earth together. [Book 10, ch 5]
fighting with eagles....NOT VERY BIG AND SCARY...
SNAKES!!!!


Serpents will feed on eggs, and the address displayed by the dragon is quite remarkable.—For it will either swallow the egg whole, it its jaws will allow of it, and roll over and over so as to break it within, and then by coughing eject the shells: or else, if it is too young to be able to do so, it will gradually encircle the egg with its coils, and hold it so tight as to break it at the end, just, in fact, as though a piece had been cut out with a knife; then holding the remaining part in its folds, it will suck the contents. In the same manner, too, when it has swallowed a bird whole, it will make a violent effort, and vomit the feathers. [Book 10, ch 92]

USES SERPENT AND DRAGON TO REFER TO SAME CREATURE>>>>>SNAKES!!!!!



It is related that—a most fortunate omen—Cæcina of Volaterræ beheld two dragons arising from the entrails of the victim; and this will not be at all incredible, if we are ready to believe that while King Pyrrhus was sacrificing, the day upon which he died, the heads of the victims, on being cut off, crawled along the ground and licked up their own blood. [Book 11, ch 77]

HMMMMMMM ...... do snakes still taste the air after u chop their heads off
still not big and scary winged beasties tho.....

The dragon is a serpent destitute of venom. Its head, placed beneath the threshold of a door, the gods being duly propitiated by prayers, will ensure good fortune to the house, it is said. Its eyes, dried and beaten up with honey, form a liniment which is an effectual preservative against the terrors of spectres by night, in the case of the most timorous even. The fat adhering to the heart, attached to the arm with a deer's sinews in the skin of a gazelle, will ensure success in law-suits, it is said; and the first joint of the vertebræ will secure an easy access to persons high in office. The teeth, attached to the body with a deer's sinews in the skin of a roebuck, have the effect of rendering masters indulgent and potentates gracious, it is said.
But the most remarkable thing of all is a composition, by the aid of which the lying magicians profess to render persons invincible. They take the tail and head of a dragon, the hairs of a lion's forehead with the marrow of that animal, the foam of a horse that has won a race, and the claws of a dog's feet: these they tie up together in a deer's skin, and fasten them alternately with the sinews of a deer and a gazelle. It is, however, no better worth our while to refute such pretensions as these, than it would be to describe the alleged remedies for injuries inflicted by serpents, seeing that all these contrivances are so many evil devices to poison men's morals.
Dragon's fat will repel venomous creatures; an effect which is equally produced by burning the fat of the ichneumon. They will take to flight, also, at the approach of a person who has been rubbed with nettles bruised in vinegar. [Book 29, ch 20]


SNAKE DESTITUTE OF VENOM= CONSTRICTOR...BIG SNAKE!!!!!



HOW VERY SCIENTIFIC!!!!!

SO Pliny is great, a good interesting read....but his understanding of his subject, like yours, is flawed.
He relied on hearsay / second hand evidence, and not his own eyes.

This account if considered a source for later accounts of 'here be dragons' cannot be linked to dinosaurs, or Zoostrian/Sumerian MYTHS.


Ur attempt DC to link them lacks considered research.

Its like saying the ancient gods were really aliens......preposterous!

yes ancient people used to identify dino and giant lizard bones with dragons.
In sicily they belived the mastodont/elephants bones they found in local caves was from cyclops, and here the legend of Polyphem was born.

Ancient people was not stupid, ignorant but no fools.

^^

What he said.

How can you take the word of people who thought the earth was flat and 'bled' people?

...What if dinosaurs are dragons? Could be likely I guess, although no wing bones have been found....curious.

Something called carbon dating.

1. What is a dinosaur?
2. What is a dragon?

3. are all dinosaurs dragons?
4. are all dragons dinosaurs?

....Pterosaurs like the pterodactyl had wings....the archaeoptrix also had wings, and feathers. but were they dragons? They could be considered so, by someone who didnt know their classification or have a better word for them.
But did they breathe fire? is this a necessary qualification for being a dragon? Is it necessary for them to have wings? Pliny as seen above seems to regard python-like snakes to be dragons, and well if the latins got the word from the Greeks? was he using the term incorrectly? or would the term incorporate the beings he described? Could the term imply any reptilian larger than a snake?(or at least the snakes that the mediterraneans would have been familiar with?) or would he have modified his view if he had actually seen one....as we can see he uses the term serpent and dragon interchangebly....why?
could this then include crocodiles, monitor lizards, and others like the komodo dragon....which is why it probably gets its name....would he see them as dragons or classify them as something else? the mediterraneans were familiar with lizards, would he prefer to use 'giant lizard' to describe the above? or maybe 'terrible lizard'?

the nature of names, and languages makes most interpretations and points of view valid.

Claiming that fire breathing, flying dragons existed though, and still do....and trying to link the mythologies of different cultures together to support such a claim when not all of them are linked. and when the beings in question are represented differently and signify different things to these different cultures is indicative of a number of things - primarily a lack of appreciation of the subject material, and a deficient comprehension of the cultures involved.
Pliny, god bless im, never saw a dragon as we think of the term. never was a scientist. He would love david attenbourgh documentaries tho.
wish i had a bill and ted phone-booth to bring him here and sit him down with a few. awwwwww.

If you were more familiar with classical literature Grem, you would know there are many ancient descriptions of winged dragons, some from the identical period of Pliny such as Lucan's. Maybe you have heard of him. And not only in Rome, of course. Jews who wrote the testament of Solomon describe a winged dragon that helped build the temple by sawing stones, so presumably had arms and legs as well. And as mentioned on a previous thread, the winged seraphim were tranlated to Drakones by the Jewish Rabis of Alexandria. Dragons of this time in China, the Russian steppes, and even the Western Hemisphere all looked, or were described much the same. All were considered wise creatures, most served gods or were gods themselve. Most were believed to control the weather. Dragons from places as far away as sumeria from central america both taught humans technology.

Uniform beliefs around the world all based on possibly finding a few bones. Just look at all of the records of dragon sightings in late medieval britain. There must be at least 100, and who knows how many hundres mor were lost since then.

And "scientists" of 17th century England continued to include winged dragons in their catalogues of all the world's known animals.

Maybe everyone was imagining everything. But it is amazing how these same people throughout the entire world could be brilliant astronomers and mathematicians and very intelligent in many other fields despite believing in dragons.

If you knew as much as you claim about classical literature DC you'd know that Lucan was a poet refering to an already mythical event in epic poetry. And like Pliny, NOT a scientist....so who were these great scientists? Are we to regard Milton's paradise lost as scientific proof of Lucifer???? and i share the same views on the subject of the big L so please dont patronise me with an attempt at education.

The reference you give of a dragon sawing stones comes from the Testimony of Solomon, which talks of summoning demons and nephilim....hardly a scientific study on winged beasties. How reliable is this text??? HMMMMMM.

By ignoring the info posted on Pliny by me i assume that you have conceeded that firstly he was no scientist (it was an erroneous claim by you) and secondly that the beasties he describes stem from exaggerated tales of pythons... if your not really familiar with the text look back a few posts.

This is enough in itself to demonstrate the inherent flaw in your argument, must i do your research for you and discount your theory point by point?
It takes no effort or depth of understanding to see that the dragons of china were very different in concept and representation to those of western europe. The onus is on you to present valid comparison. with refs. Those of the russian steppes and the west may have similarities in appearence because they may well share a common route, as u undoubtedly know that those from britain most likely came culturally with the Sarmatian cavalry in the service of the Roman Empire.....

Please state references to medieval sightings of dragons in britain. you state there are 100 id be satisfied with 20 to engage with; choose your favourates.
scientists in the 17thC????? natural history at the time loved stories of exotica, there were 'false' mermaids in the national museum and everything, a taxidermist hoax....they wernt up to much on the scientific method yet.

oh dear.....

I'd say it's a great possibility that all the dragons myths come from mistaking dinosaur fossils for dragons. Perhaps even 'dragon' was the word they had for dinosaur.

Well Ashely, there are many dragons in the Bible, and I thought you believed in God and the accuracy of Holy Scripture. Dragons sing praises to God in Psalms. Jewish Rabbis and scholars translated the word Seraphim to the word Dragons (Drakones) when the Greek version of Enoch was written. So these are not Metaphors like the dragon in revelations. The ancient Jews and Christians recognized them as heavenly creatures, which even you acknowledged at one time as several of your previous posts confirm. The guardian Cherubim in Enoch that have sharp teeth and heads like serpents our probably a reference to the same heavenly dragons referred to in the Apocolypse of Baruch. So I guess you now believe the Bible and all related scriptures that mention heavenly dragons are all a myth based on dinosaur bones. Make up your mind, you phoney.

Like I've said before....countless times... the description is not 'dragon' it's fiery serpents with eyes of fire. The angels with these descriptions are angels of punishment and NOT Seraphim, and nowhere near the throne of God. I also gave you a SCRIPTURAL description of the seraphim in another post. These serpents, like the 4 headed cherubim, and 16 headed six winged seraphim are ANGELS. ANGELS take on many forms. Surely you, with you debasing comments about 'sunday school' and 'cartoon swan winged angels' realize this. They are ANGELS no matter their form. Yes there are references to actual dragons, like in the Apocalypse of Abraham Azazel is said to have appeared to him first as a black bird then as a dragon with 7 heads and 14 faces, but this SAME angel (who I'll add is plainly stated in the same text as being FALLEN) is a Benai Elohim/Watcher/Irin Qaddism (twin judgement angels) whose real form is humanlike of extreme stature and 'equal to all the angels in heaven', and came to earth in human form as per Enoch. To break it down, angels can take on ANY form, and no matter their true form they can ALL appear human. That does not make them as you called it 'clones of humans' it means they can APPEAR human. There is a difference. When dear old Azazel was showing himself to be a 7 headed dragon to Abraham he was quite clearly having a little fun scaring the living sh** out of him. Something angels like to do with humans at times when it serves their purpose. They have emotions just as any other creation does, as does God himself.

You seem to deny the existence of fallen angels yet quote from books dealing with just that. Then to contradict yourself try to debase the very books you quote from. You obviously don't understand WHAT a 'fallen' angel is. It is an angel who has transgressed God, but they DO still work for God, being the Sons of God that they are. But they are indeed punished. Can they find redemption? Yes, of course they can. Do they oppose God? No. NO angel is dumb enough to do that, only humans do stupid things such as that.

You are completely off on Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons not having similar characteristics. In ancient times these dragons were remarkably similar in design around the world, carried gods, brought technology to mankind, guarded precious objects, etc.

I was not referring to Lucan as a scientist. That should have been obvious when I also mentioned the testament of Solomon. I mentioned these passages because of your erroneously statement that the dragons of the Greco Roman world were merely giant pythons. Pythons don't fly, but many ancient dragons, all around the world, including the classical world have wings, and do fly.


On Pliny the "scientist"
(Caius Plinius Secundus) (pl´n) (KEY) , c.A.D. 23–A.D. 79, Roman naturalist, b. Cisalpine Gaul. He was a friend and fellow soldier of Vespasian, and he dedicated his great work to Titus. He died of asphyxiation in the neighborhood of Vesuvius, having gone to investigate the eruption. His one surviving work is an encyclopedia of natural science (Historia naturalis). It is divided into 37 books and, after a preface, deals with the nature of the physical universe; geography; anthropology; zoology; botany, including the medicinal uses of plants; curatives derived from the animal world; and mineralogy, including an account of the uses of pigments and a history of the fine arts. Pliny’s industry was immense and his knowledge of sources extensive, but his information is mostly secondhand.

On dragon sightings in Britain (similar long lists throughout Europe, and the world, for that matter). Understand that probably all references to humans killing them are probably embellishments invented by fameseeking opportunists after the dragon left the area. Many towns in Britian kept fires of burning bones day and night as it was believe it kept dragons away.

ENGLAND

CORNWALL

Padstow
Padstow is famous for its ‘hobby ‘oss’ that some think was originally a dragon. Padstow was also once inhabited by a far more aggressive dragon. Saint Petroc was said to have tamed it by placing a girdle about its neck. The dragon was then led down to the seashore and let loose. It swam away and never bothered anyone again.

Helston
Here a huge fire-breathing dragon was seen flying over the town, clutching a ball of flames in its claws. The dragon dropped the flaming mass just outside the town where it cooled down, forming a huge rock that is still there to this day.

DEVON

Exeter
An enormous winged dragon was said to fly nightly over the Exe Valley, lighting up the sky with its flaming breath. It flew back and forth between Dolbury Hill and Cadbury Castle guarding two hordes of treasure. A local saying goes…

“If Cadbury Castle and Dolbury Hill delven were
All England might plough with a golden share”

In this case no hero was forthcoming to do battle with the dragon.

Manaton
A winged dragon made its lair in an old tin mine here. The dragon’s hissing was said to be audible for miles around. It was finally slain in the mine but history does not record by whom. The story was recorded by the late 18th century writer Polwhele. Devonshire dragon stories all seem to be frustratingly vague.

Challacombe
Fire breathing, winged dragons were seen at night. They flew around snorting fire and would perch upon Bronze Age burial mounds. Perhaps they were supposed to be guarding the contents.

Winkleigh
Two 17th century writers recorded a brace of dragons here but there are no more details. A scant story even by Devon standards!

SOMERSET

Crowcombe
In Shervage wood near Crowcombe there dwelt a worm thicker about the middle than an oak tree. It fed on local livestock and then expanded its diet to humans, eating two gypsies and a shepherd. The locals became too afraid to enter the wood to pick the bilberries with which they made pies.

d Taunton. So, rather than recombining, the segments both perished.

Kingston St Mary
A savage fire-breathing dragon terrorized this area

Norton Fitzwarren
Here the Roman general Ostorius was said to have killed hundreds of ancient Britons. Over the centuries a dragon is said to have grown from the corruption of the rotting bodies (this spontaneous growth of creatures from rotting matter was a common belief in Medieval times). The dragon took up residence in an Iron Age hill fort and preyed on the populace until Fulk Fitzwarine, a 13th century knight, slew the creature. Despite his brave deed Fulk fell foul of King John and was exiled. He continued his adventures abroad when he saved the Duke of Iberia’s daughter from a dragon near Carthage.

Aller
The dragon of Aller was a terrifying beast. It spat both fire and venom and flew on vast leathery wings. It lived in a hillside cave just outside of Aller and, as western dragons are want to do, laid waste to the land.

The dragon was finally slain by John of Aller. There are two versions of the story; in one John is a knight, in the other a lowly peasant. He covered himself in pitch and wore a mask to protect himself from the dragon’s breath.

After a terrible battle, John was able to thrust a long spear down the dragon’s throat and kill the beast. In one version of the story he is burnt to death by the dragon’s breath. In another telling, John survives and finds a brood of hatchlings in the dragon’s cave. The cave is subsequently blocked up.

Wievliscombe
In 1827, when the church here was being rebuilt, the devil manifested riding a green dragon and began hurling rocks at the church. Saint Andrew then materialized and drove them off with a cross.

Klive
A dragon called Blue Ben resided here and was supposedly the steed of the devil. He fell from a causeway of rocks and drowned in the mud. His skull (actually a fossil ichthyosaur) was uncovered and is on display in the local museum.

Carhampton
In Arthurian legend Saint Carantoc visited this part of Somerset whilst looking for his altar. He met with King Arthur who was worried about a dragon terrorizing the county. Arthur knew the whereabouts of the Saint’s altar and said he would reveal its location if Carantoc could rid him of the dragon.

Carantoc tamed the dragon by putting his stole around its neck and leading it to Dunster Castle. An angry mob wanted to attack the now placid beast, but the Saint would not let them. He released the dragon telling it never to harm anyone ever again.

Churchstanton
A dragon once resided in the place where Stapley Farm now stands. After causing the usual havoc it was slain by an anonymous knight. The lashing of the dragons tail is said to have carved out a hollow in a field known as Wormstall.

Trull
A dragon was supposedly slain on Castleman’s hill near Trull, but no details remain of it. The local church has a stained glass window showing Saints George, Michael and Margaret killing dragons.

Wells
Bishop Jocelyn supposedly drove out a dragon that had been terrorizing locals around seven holy springs. A cathedral was built next to the springs.

Castle Neroche
A treasure-guarding dragon once lived here, but that is all that remains of this legend.

HAMPSHIRE

Bisterne
Two versions of this story exist. The Bisterne dragon dwelt on Burley Beacon, a hill in the New Forest. In one of the stories the dragon is placated by being fed milk by the local villagers. They grow weary of paying this tribute and hire a knight, Sir Macdonie de Berkeley, to slay the monster. The knight takes a jug of milk to lure the dragon and a cabinet of mirrored glass to hide in. When the beast was busy slurping the milk, the knight stepped out from his hiding place and slew the dragon.

The second version of this story is far more dramatic. The knight is called Sir Maurice de Berkeley, and the dragon in this story was not to be fobbed off with milk. It gorged on livestock and man flesh. Sir Maurice fought it accompanied by two huge mastiffs. Prior to the battle he covered his armour in birdlime and ground glass. Both the dogs and the knight died along with the dragon.

Wherwell
A duck’s egg was incubated by a toad in the cellar of Wherwell Priory. It grew into a cockatrice and set about withering everything around. A reward of four acres of land was offered to anyone who could kill the beast. Several champions came forward only to be slain by the deadly glare of the cockatrice.

Finally, a Priory servant named Green lowered a polished steel mirror into the dragon’s cellar lair. Unlike most of its kin, the Wherwell cockatrice’s reflection was not instantaneously lethal to itself. It took its own reflection for another, rival, cockatrice and attacked it. Once it had exhausted itself fighting its own image, Green leapt down and killed it with a spear.

Up until the 1930s older residents of Wherwell refused to eat duck’s eggs!

JERSEY

La Hogue Bie
Seigneur de Hambye, Lord of the Manor, slew a fearful dragon after a long and awful combat. Whilst lying wounded and exhausted after the fight de Hambye’s squire crept up and murdered him. The squire returned to the village claiming to have killed the dragon after it had killed his master. He married his master’s widow and acquired his lands. His chicanery was found out later after he suffered nightmares and spoke in his sleep.

SUSSEX

Lyminster
Here we have another dragon legend of which three different versions exist. The dragon was known as the Knucker and inhabited a supposedly bottomless pool known as the Knucker hole.

In the first version, the dragon was terrorizing the area and had eaten all the maidens in the area, leaving only the King of Sussex’s daughter. The King offered his daughter’s hand in marriage to anyone who could deliver her from the dragon’s jaws. A wandering knight took up the challenge and slew the beast.

Others say it was a local lad named Jim Puttock who fed the dragon an indigestible pudding, then killed it whilst it was indisposed with a bout of bellyache! He got some of the dragon’s blood on his hand and, after wiping his mouth after a celebratory pint of beer, Puttock died.

In the third variation, Jim baked a poisoned pie so huge it needed a horse and cart to transport it to the Knucker hole. The dragon ate the pie, the cart, and the horse, and subsequently died.

Knucker is believed to derive from nikyr, Old Norse for water monster.

St Leonard’s Forest
This wild briar is a part of the once vast forest of the Weald. St Leonard himself was supposed to have fought a dragon in its depths. Where the Saint’s blood fell patches of lily-of the valley sprung up.

In 1614 another type of dragon appeared in the forest, a limbless worm some nine feet long that killed both man and beast with poison, and which for a while became infamous in the area. It was said to raise up its head and look in an arrogant manner about itself. It sounds very much like a cobra, possibly brought back from abroad by a traveller or merchant and which subsequently got free.

Cissbury
A prehistoric earthwork on the South Downs is supposed to contain a huge treasure horde. A tunnel reputedly runs from the earthwork to Offington Hall, two miles away. In the 1860s the owner of the hall offered half the treasure to anyone who could clear out the tunnel and find the horde. Several people tried but were driven back by huge snakes that sprang hissing at them with open mouths.

Bignor
A huge worm wrapped itself around Bignor hill and left the imprint of its coils on the hill.

Fittleworth
As recently as 1867 a worm was supposed to reside here and rush out hissing at anyone who passed by its lair.

ESSEX

Henham
Robert Winstantley of Saffron Walden wrote a pamphlet titled ‘A True Relation of a Monsterous Serpent seen at Henham on the Mount in Saffron Walden,’ published in 1699. The creature in question was a winged serpent (it would have been called a gwiber in Wales) that appeared in May of that year. It was around nine feet long and as thick as a man’s leg. Its eyes were as large as sheep’s eyes and it had several rows of sharp teeth. It was also furnished with small wings.

Despite having caused no trouble, its demeanour was sufficiently alarming that a group of villagers armed with farm implements and stones chased it off.

Horndon
The dragon of Horndon was said to have been imported in the Middle Ages by Barbary Merchants (presumably as a youngster) from whom it escaped. It set up home in the surrounding forest and grew to huge proportions.

It was eventually killed by Sir James Tyrell who managed to dazzle the dragon by wearing highly polished armour.

St Osyth
A broad sheet produced in 1704 refers to a dragon of “marvellous bigness” being discovered here during the reign on Henry II. Nothing more is known about this creature.

Saffron Walden
The pamphlet that deals with the Henham winged serpent also relates the story of a basilisk dragon that held siege to Saffron Walden centuries before. It was described as:

“…not about a foot in length, of colour between black and yellow, having very red eyes, a sharp head and a white spot hereon like a crown. It goeth not winding like other serpents but upright on its breast. If a man touch it though with a long pole it kills him: and if it sees a man far off it destroys him with its looks. Furthermore it breaketh stones, blasteth all plants with his breath, it burneth everything it goeth over; no herb can grow near the place of his abode.”

The basilisk killed so many people that the town was becoming severely depopulated. Finally a wandering knight delivered the townspeople by covering his armour in crystal glass. On seeing its own reflection, the monster died.

BERKSHIRE
Dragon Hill
Close to the more famous White Horse Hill this small flat-topped hill is one of the places where St George is supposed to have slain the dragon. The dragon’s blood burned the soil at the top of the hill so that no grass will grow there.

In fact St George was a Syrian con-man who never set foot in Britain, let alone fought a dragon!

GLOUSTERSHIRE

Deerhurst
The Deerhurst dragon was covered in impenetrable scales and fed on livestock. It killed villagers with its deadly breath. It was finally slain by a local labourer, the exotically named John Smith.

John set out a trough of milk for the dragon who greedily drank the lot. After its meal, the creature stretched out to sleep. Whilst sleeping, the dragon ruffled up its scales in the manner of a bird fluffing its feathers. Seeing his chance John took up an axe and struck between the beast’s scales, hacking off the monster’s head.

HERTFORDSHIRE

Brent Pelam
A mighty dragon made its lair under the roots of an ancient yew tree and wrought havoc in the surrounding countryside. Piers Shonks, Lord of the Manor of Pelham, fought it accompanied by three huge hounds. He finally triumphed by thrusting a long spear down the dragon’s throat.

At the moment of victory the Devil appeared vowing vengeance on Shonks for destroying his beast. He swore that he would have Shonks’ soul, whether he was buried inside or outside the church.

Shonks foiled the Devil by being buried in a cavity within the church walls, therefore being neither inside nor outside the church.

St Albans
This is the scene of one of Britain’s oldest dragon legends. Abbot Ealdred of St Albans, who succeeded office in 1007, rebuilt his abbey using the ruins of Verulamium, a Roman city nearby. During the course of the demolitions he was said to have flattened the lair of the dragon of Wormenhert. There is no information on the dragon itself, or on what it was doing whilst the Abbot destroyed its den.

Berkhamsted
St Paul, whilst visiting Britain, was supposed to have banished forever all snakes, dragons, and thunderstorms. He didn’t do a very good job!

SUFFOLK

Bures / Wormingford
Confusion and controversy surround this legend on the Suffolk / Essex border. Both the town of Bures and the village of Wormingford lay claim to the story as their own.

In a 19th century translation of a document from 1405, the story is told of a fearful dragon that had a hide impenetrable to arrows and which disappeared into the marsh after having caused “much hurt”.

Wormingford begs to differ, saying that the creature resided there and was finally killed by Sir George de la Haye.

The description of this dragon sounds very like a crocodile. Indeed, many think it was such a beast that got free from the Royal menagerie at the Tower of London and made its way to Suffolk. One can readily imagine the fear a 20-30 foot reptile would have struck into the hearts of the peasants.

Little Cornard
Two dragons did battle here. A spotted red dragon from Ballingdon Hill on the Essex side of the River Stour came down to fight a black dragon from Kedington Hill on the Suffolk side. After a long battle the red dragon won. Both dragons survived the fight and returned to their respective lairs.

A contemporary document recording these events is held in Canterbury Cathedral.

NORFOLK

Ludham
A fire-breathing dragon struck fear into the hearts of the Ludham residents. Upon discovering its cave they tried blocking the entrance, but the dragon merely tore away the rubble. Finally one man found a boulder that was the exact shape of the cave entrance and blocked it up whilst the dragon was out.

On finding its cave blocked the dragon moved to the vaults under the ruins of the Abbey of St Benadict.

WORCESTERSHIRE

Wolverley
A document dating to 1582 refers to a place called Drakelow as being inhabited by a dragon. Nothing, however, is known of either the dragon or of the place.

HEREFORDSHIRE

Mordiford
The story of the Mordiford wyvern is one of the most detailed dragon legends in Britain; it is also the one with the most variations, having no less than five.

A young girl called Maud was walking through the woods when she found a baby wyvern, bright green and no bigger than a cucumber. She took it home to keep as a pet, feeding it on milk. It grew very fast and began to eat chickens, then sheep, before graduating onto cows. Finally, as an adult, it turned into a man-eater, but it remained friendly toward Maud. It made its lair on a ridge in Hauge Wood and always followed the same path, known to this day as Serpent Path, to the river.

Locals now took steps to end its reign of terror. This is where the story diverges. In one variation, the hero is a criminal under sentence of death. He is promised his life and freedom if he kills the wyvern. He is lucky enough to find it asleep in its den and kills it, bringing the tongue back for proof.

Another version says the same hero hid in a cider barrel by the wyvern’s drinking place, the confluence of the rivers Wye and Lugg. He shot it through the barrel’s bung hole.

Another, more exciting, twist is that the barrel was covered with hooks and blades. The wyvern, spotting the man inside, coiled around the barrel but mortally wounded itself on the spikes.

In all of the first three of these variations, the hero dies from the wyvern’s breath.

Yet another ending has the wyvern gorging itself on a drowned ox, and then being surrounded and killed by villagers while it slept off its meal.

The final story says that the hero was not a criminal but a member of a distinguished local family, the Garstons.

The legend had such a hold over the locals that in 1875 the rector found two of his parishioners, a pair of old women, trying to drown some newts in the belief that they would grow into wyverns!

Brinsop
St George is said to have killed a well-dwelling dragon in a field called Lower Stanks. A 12th century stone carving in a church shows him spearing a worm-type dragon.

Wormlow Trump
Dragons are said to guard treasures in two tumuli, Wormlow Trump and Old Field Barrows.

LINCONSHIRE

Castle Carlton
The Castle Carlton dragon was unique among British dragons in that it had only one huge eye, the size of a basin, in its forehead. It was slain by Sir Hugh Bardolfe, who fought the creature during a thunderstorm. A flash of lightning dazzled the dragon long enough for Sir Hugh to strike its one vulnerable spot, a wart on one of its legs.

Anwick
Whilst ploughing a boggy field a farmer saw one of his horses sucked down into quicksand. Just as the horse vanished, a huge dragon flew out of the bog. The next day a boulder in the shape of a dragon appeared in the field.

Stories began to circulate that treasure was beneath the boulder and many tried to raise it, but none succeeded. The dragon was sometimes seen flying up from the bog, but never seemed interested in attacking anyone. The boulder is still there to this day, but has broken in two.

DERBYSHIRE

Drakelow
A dragon is mentioned in a document dating to 772 as being buried in a prehistoric tumulus.

Winlatter Rock
Two linked stories are attached to this area close to Chesterfield. The first concerns a dragon, reckoned to be none other than the Devil himself. He came from the north, burning and destroying all in his path.

A priest challenged him by climbing to the top of Winlatter Rock, spreading his arms in the form of a cross. The dragon called up great winds and storms to lash the holy man but the priest stood so firm that his feet sank into the rock. The dragon turned back and Chesterfield was saved. The priest’s footprints remained etched into the rock, and pilgrims visited them for years afterwards.

The story has a sequel. Years later the dragon returned and picked up were he left off, spreading destruction. Three brothers took a massive iron bar to the blacksmith and asked him to forge a sword.
“You won’t be able to lift it,” the smithy said.
“One can’t but three can,” the brothers answered.
Then they met a farmer as they were carrying the sword to Winlatter Rock.
“You’ll never carry it to the top of the rock,” he said.
“One can’t but three can,” the brothers replied.
On the rock they saw a shepherd and told him that they were carrying the sword to the summit.
“You’ll never get it up there” said the Shepard.
“One can’t but three can,” the brothers answered.
Once they were at the summit, one brother put the sword into the priest’s footprint. One ran to Chesterfield to call the men at arms. And one went to the church and climbed up the steeple to ring the bell when the dragon came into view.

The bells rang out as the dragon flew toward town, spewing fire and surrounded by a maelstrom of winds. It threw a lightning bolt at the sword and the weapon lit up like a torch. The men at arms converged on Winlatter Rock and all held up their swords like a forest of crosses. The dragon turned and fled down the Blue John Mines and remains there to this day. As he fled his tail struck the spire of Chesterfield church and twisted it out of shape. The twisted spire is still visible.

CHESHIRE

Moston
Sir Thomas Venables slew a water dwelling dragon here to save a child. He managed to kill it by shooting an arrow through the creature’s eye. His reward was a grant of the land that the fortunes of the Venables family were founded on. The family crest shows a dragon with a child in its jaws.

LANCASHIRE

Runcorn
A dragon sporting tiger like stripes along its scaly body once lived on the banks of the Mersey. It was coated in impenetrable scales, and had eaten every single cow for miles around. One farmer had an idea. He put the hide and horns of a cow over a wooden framework and hid inside it, holding a sword.

The dragon saw what it thought was a cow and swooped down to grab the animal in its claws. The dragon lifted the faux cow and the farmer high into the air and was flying across the Mersey when the farmer stabbed his assailant in its one vulnerable spot, beneath the wing. Losing height rapidly, the mortally wounded monster reached the far bank and expired. The cow’s hide, complete with the slash made by the dragon’s claws, was displayed for a number of years at a local pub.

CUMBRIA

Renwick
A bat-winged cockatrice lived in an old church spire. In 1733 it objected to the church’s demolition and flew out to attack the workers. All fled, except John Tallantine who slew the dragon with a stake made from hawthorn. For this deed he and his descendents were exempt from paying tithes.

YORKSHIRE

Cawthorne
A flying serpent dwelt in Serpent’s Well and would fly from there to Cawthorn Park.

Loschy Hill
Sir Peter Loschy did battle with a worm on this hill in the parish of Stonegrave. He covered his armour in razor blades before the fight. The monster could rejoin severed sections of its body so the knight brought with him his trusty hound that snatched up the pieces of the monster’s coils and ran off with them, thereby preventing the creature from rejoining. The dog ran to the village of Nunnington, one mile distant, to deposit the bits of the worm.

After the worm was vanquished the knight bent down to pet his dog and it licked his face. Both man and hound died from the monster’s venomous blood.

Slingsby
Slingsby is a few scant miles from Loschy Hill and the legend here is so like the previous one that they may share one root legend. The fight with the worm, assisted by the dog and the death by worm blood, is exactly the same. Here, however, the knight is Sir William Wyvill, whose family was known to have lived in Slingsby in the 14th century.

The worm’s lair, according to a 17th century document, was a great round hole three yards wide and half a mile from town. The worm was thought to be over a mile long.

Kellington
Though it is quite a way from Loschy Hill and Slingsby, the story of the Kellington worm runs much the same. Here the worm dwells in a marshy forest and is fought not by a knight, but by a shepherd called Ormroyd (Orm being Norse for dragon). Once again his dog aids him, and once again both die in the same manner. Perhaps dragon slayers should avoid bringing their dogs along!

Wantley
This was a fire-spewing, winged dragon that devoured not only humans and animals but ate up trees. The knight who battled him was almost as formidable. More of More Hall was a huge man who reputedly killed a horse with his bare hands after it had angered him; he then ate it.

The night before the battle More had a black-haired maiden of 16 anoint him.

His armour was covered, like so many other dragon slayers, with spikes, each six inches long. The fight raged between man and beast for two days and one night. Neither opponent could get a palpable hit on the other. The dragon finally grabbed More, intending to throw him high into the air like a rag doll. More managed to kick a spiked boot into the dragon’s only vulnerable spot, its backside!

Handale
The woods near Handale Priory were inhabited by a crested, fire-spitting worm with a sting in its tail. It made a habit of eating maidens, until being slain by a youth named Scraw. Scraw found an earl’s daughter in the worm’s cave and rescued her. His reward was her hand in marriage, and vast estates. The wood was known as Scraw’s Wood from then on.

Sexhow
A winged fire-breathing dragon terrorized the area and took up residence on a hill. It demanded the milk of nine cows every day. As well as breathing fire it spouted poison gas, killing anyone who ventured too close. After a long battle, a wandering knight finally killed the dragon. He then continued on his way without demanding a reward, or even revealing his name. The dragon was skinned and its hide taken to Stokesley Church were it hung for many years. The hide vanished many years ago.

Filey
The dragon of Filey was defeated not by a knight but by a timid, hen-pecked little tailor named Billy Biter. One misty morning he fell into the dragon’s lair. As the dragon was about to eat him, Billy offered it some parkin - a sweet, sticky Yorkshire pudding. The monster liked it so much it demanded more.

When Billy told his nagging, over-bearing wife she insisted that she cooked the parkin and took it the dragon. The dragon so disliked Billy’s wife that it ate her as well as the parkin. Her cooking was so bad that the pudding stuck the dragon’s jaws together.

The dragon went to the sea, but was overcome by the icy waves. His bones turned to stone and became Filey Brigg, a promontory of rock that stretches a mile out to see. In the 1930s there was a report of a sea dragon seen, by a coastguard, on Filey Brigg.

Well
The dragon of Well was slain by a knight named Latimer, a local landowner. A dragon is featured on the Latimer coat of arms.

Bilsdale
A dragon was said to reside in a tumulus guarding treasure.

WESTMORLAND

Hayes Water
A dragon lived in a pond together with a giant char. It caused little trouble but would stir up the water on occasion.

DURHAM

Lambton
One of the best-known British dragon legends is that of the Lambton worm. The story goes that Sir John Lambton, the young heir to Lambton Castle, went fishing one Sunday morning instead of going to church. He caught a small, horrid snake-like creature on his line. Disgusted, he threw it down a well and forgot about it.
Sometime later he joined the Crusades and travelled to the Holy Land. Whilst he was away, the snake-like creature in the well grew to massive proportions and emerged to wreak havoc on the surrounding land. It ate livestock, sucked the milk from cows, and ate people. It had its lair on an island in the middle of the River Wear. Many tried to slay it, but it could rejoin severed portions of its body and hence always emerged triumphant.

The people began to pacify it with troughs of milk. Once the milk was watered down and the worm, sensing the deceit, went on the rampage.

Word of the worm reached Sir John Lambton who realized that the worm was the very creature he had caught, grown to mind boggling proportions. He returned from the Crusades and sought advice.

Sir John visited a wise woman, Elspat of the Glen, who told him how the worm might be bested. But before she gave him the information, she made the knight swear an oath. He must kill the first living creature that he met after the battle, or a curse would fall upon the Lambtons and nine generations of the family would meet with untimely deaths.

The witch said that he must weld spikes to his armour to prevent the worm constricting him. He must also fight it in the middle of the river Wear, where the current was strongest. This would wash away the segments of the worm’s body before they could rejoin.

Sir John followed the witch’s advice and arranged for his father to release a hunting dog for him to kill after the fight. The worm was fought in the middle of the river and all went to plan. The coils were severed and washed away before they could rejoin.

When he reached the bank, his father was so overjoyed that he forgot to release the dog and rushed down to greet his son. Sir John could not kill his father, and so the witch’s curse fell on the family. Nine generations of Lambtons did not die easily in their beds.

A portion of the hide of the Lambton worm was supposedly kept on display at Lambton castle, and was said to resemble cow's hide. The specimen was lost when the castle was demolished in the 18th century.

Sockburn
Prior to the Norman Conquest Sir John Conyers slew a man-eating dragon of some type. Before he did battle he went, in full armour, to the church and offered up his only son to the Holy Ghost. Up until 1826 each newly elected Bishop of Durham was presented with the sword Sir John used in the fight, the Conyers Falchion. The sword actually dates from the 13th century, so it cannot be the original. It is probably a facsimile created as the older weapon rusted away over the ages.

Oddly, in recorded manuscripts and civil speeches, the exact species of dragon cannot be decided upon. The creature is referred to as a dragon, a flying serpent, a worm, or a wyvern. Almost the whole draconic gamut!

Bishop Auckland
The story here is very like that at Sockburn. But the species here is the limbless worm. The great serpent inhabited an oak wood and gobbled up man and beast. It was slain by a champion from the well-known local family, the Pollards. A falchion was the weapon of choice here as well. Whenever the Bishop of Durham entered the diocese, he would be presented with the sword.

Pollard was given a grant of land - as much land as he could ride around whilst the bishop was at dinner. Pollard sneakily rode around the bishop’s castle. The bishop refused to give up his home, so Pollard was given a far greater estate instead, much larger than he could have ever ridden around in the time allotted.

Durham
In 1563 a huge serpent was exhibited (presumably stuffed) in Durham. It had supposedly killed 1000 people in Ethiopia, and was almost certainly a crocodile.

NORTHUMBERLAND

Bamburgh
The Laidly (Northumbrian for loathsome) worm was once a beautiful princess named Margaret, who lived in Bamburgh Castle. Her stepmother was a witch who, due to jealousy, cast a spell changing the princess into a huge worm. The worm’s breath caused vegetation to shrivel, and it demanded the milk of seven cows every day.

Depending on which of the two versions you hear, the hero is either Margaret’s brother Child Wynd or a man named Kemp Owen. Not knowing that the worm was, in fact, the princess he sets out to slay it. When he confronts the worm it tells him to put down his sword and kiss it three times upon its ugly head.

“O quit your sword, unbend your bow,
And give me kisses three
For though I am a poisonous worm
No harm I’ll do to thee.”

Amazingly the hero co-operates and the worm transforms back into Margaret.

The curse rebounds and the witch is turned into a toad that hops off down a well. Some say the toad reappears every seven years and can be changed back into human shape by a hero kissing her after unsheathing Child Wynd’s sword and blowing three times on his horn.

Longwitton
A green dragon lurked by three holy wells in the grounds of Longwitton Hall. It had the power to make itself invisible and heal any wounds. It did not terrorize the area like others of its kind, but kept people away from the wells.

Sir Guy of Warwick was asked to free the wells and rode out to fight the dragon. It became visible when it attacked him. The knight was no match for the dragon’s flaming breath and teeth and claws. He barely escaped alive.

After recuperating, he and his horse returned for a second bout with the dragon. This time he noticed that on the few occasions his sword could penetrate the monster’s scales, its wounds healed almost instantly. He also noticed that it always kept the tip of its tail in one of the wells. Once again Sir Guy was almost killed. But he realized that the dragon was drawing healing power from the well.

After licking his wounds again he challenged the beast for a third fight, but this time Sir Guy had a plan. Feigning defeat, he staggered away from the well. The dragon followed and its tail drew clear of the well. Sir Guy positioned his horse between the dragon and the wells and took up the battle again. Finally, he was able to deliver a fatal wound to the monster whilst it was away from the healing power of the wells.

Gunnarton Fell
A dragon protects a barrow on Money Hill. No more is known of this legend, but the name Money Hill suggests it was guarding a treasure horde.

WALES

GLAMORGAN

Penllin
Brilliantly coloured flying serpents were said to inhabit the woods of Penllin as recently as the mid 19th century. People who were old men and women at the beginning of the 20th century recalled them well from their youth. They were prone to raid chicken coops and as a result were hunted into extinction.

Penmark
Another colony of the winged serpents resided here. One old woman said her grandfather had killed one after a fierce fight. She recalled seeing the skin preserved at his house when she was a girl. To the horror of cryptozoologists, it was thrown away upon his death.

Cardiff
A worm was supposed to live at the bottom of a whirlpool in the River Taff. It was said to drown people and suck down their bodies to eat.

DYFED

Trellech a’r Betws
A gwiber is supposed to guard a prehistoric tumulus in the area.

Newcastle Emlyn
A flame-spewing wyvern lived in a ruined castle, and was covered in impenetrable scales. A soldier waded into the river with a large piece of red cloth. The wyvern reacted to the cloth like a bull (or a male robin) and swooped down to attack it, allowing the soldier to shoot it in its one vulnerable spot. Like the dragon of Wantley, the vital spot was its rear end!

Castle Gwys
In one of the strangest British dragon legends, the beast here was a cockatrice whose body was covered in eyes. For some unexplained reason the estates of Winston were up for grabs to whoever could look on the freakish thing without it seeing them.

One resourceful chap hid inside a barrel and rolled into the cockatrice’s lair. He shouted out “Ha, bold cockatrice! I can see you but you cannot see me!”

He was granted the estates. What happened to the multi-eyed monster is anyone’s guess.

POWYS

Llandelio Graban
A dragon roosted in the tower of Llandelio Graban church until a local ploughboy worked out a way of destroying it. He carved a dummy dragon out of oak, and had the blacksmith cover it with steel hooks and spikes. It was then painted red and erected on the tower whilst the dragon was away hunting.
Upon returning, the dragon saw what it thought was a rival and savagely attacked it. The real dragon coiled about its facsimile and tried to squeeze the life from it. The genuine dragon was fatally wounded, and both the monster and the fake dragon came crashing down from the tower to their ruin.

GWYNEDD

Betws-y-Coed
A monster known as the Wybrant gwiber terrorized the neighbourhood. An outlaw from Hiraethog tried to kill it, but it bit him, tore out his throat, and flung him into the river for good measure!

CLWYD

Llarhaeadr-ym-Mochant
A gwiber brought a reign of terror to the area until the surviving locals studded a huge megalith with spikes and hooks and swathed it in red cloth. The red colour enraged the gwiber who attacked, becoming fatally entwined on the hooks. The megalith is known as the Red Pillar, or the Pillar of the Viper.

Penmynydd
In this detailed story a rich nobleman invites a soothsayer to the celebration feast after his son’s birth. The sage foretells that the boy will die of a gwiber’s bite. The boy is sent away to England for safekeeping, and his father offers a reward to whoever can slay the last gwiber in the area.

A clever lad digs a pit on the path were the gwiber usually slithers. At the bottom he places a highly polished brass mirror. He covers the pit with sticks and grass then waits. The gwiber falls into the pit and sees its own reflection. Thinking it a rival, it attacks the mirror until exhausted; then they boy leaps into the pit and hacks off the gwiber’s head.

Years later the nobleman’s son, now a spoilt teenager, returns and is shown the gwiber’s skull. He contemptuously kicks it and one of its long, dead fangs slices through his boot. The fang retains traces of venom and, as prophesied, the boy dies.

Cynwch Lake

A wyvern dwelt in this lake beneath the slopes of Moel Offrum. It emerged to poison the countryside and devour whatever it could catch. The Wizard of Ganllwyd employed a group of archers to kill it, but the wyvern always eluded them.

One day a shepherd boy named Meredydd found the wyvern sleeping on the hill. He ran two miles to Cymmer Abbey and borrowed a magick axe. He hacked the wyvern’s head off while it was asleep.

Nant Gwynant

After the Roman Legions left, Vortigern became the first British king. He decided to build a stronghold on the Iron Age hill fort of Dinas Emrys. Every time work began upon Dinas Emry, it would be destroyed by earthquake-like disturbances. Vortigern’s wizards said that in order to stop these events, the ground should be sprinkled with the blood of the son of a virgin. A boy was found whose mother had apparently been magically impregnated by a spirit. He was about to be sacrificed when he went into a trance and announced that beneath the hill was a lake. In the lake dwelt a red dragon and a white dragon who perpetually fought.

Vortigern’s men dug down and found the lake. When the lake was drained they found a pair of dragons. The two great reptiles fought until, at last, the white dragon gave way and fled. Seeing this as an omen that his forces would defeat the invading Saxons, Vortigern adopted the red dragon as his emblem.

The boy was none other than a young Merlin.

Llyn-y-Gadair
In the 18th century a group of men were swimming across this small lake close to Snowdonia. One of them was grabbed and devoured by a worm.

SCOTLAND

ROXBURGHSHIRE

Linton
The Linton worm was perhaps the laziest British dragon. It lived in a cave on Linton Hill and instead of actively hunting prey; it would suck passing animals and people into its waiting maw.

After eating it would crawl out of its lair and coil around the hill, leaving deep impressions. Local peasantry offered a reward to whoever could slay the worm. The knight who took up the challenge was the Laird of Linton, who was from the Somerville.

He attached a lump of peat to a wheel that he then fitted to the end of his lance. He dipped the peat in boiling pitch, brimstone, and resin. He set light to the concoction and charged at the worm, ramming it down the beast’s throat.

He was also rewarded by being given the post of Royal Falconer to the King of Scotland.

KIRKCUDBRIGHTSHIRE

Solway Firth
A sea dwelling worm devoured fish stocks that the local people depended on. Not satisfied with seafood, it crawled ashore to eat farm animals and humans. People from the villages along the shore built a huge palisade of sharpened stakes and erected it at low tide. When the worm came in with the high tide it impaled itself on the spikes. Its roaring and death throes lasted for three days. Sea birds ate its carcass.

Dalry
The worm here was white in colour and this legend may have inspired Bram Stoker’s novel ‘Lair of the White Worm’. It wound itself around Mote Hill and got up to the usual tricks.

A local blacksmith made a suit of armour covered with retractable spikes. He allowed the worm to swallow him and then wriggled so violently in its gut that the monsters intestines were shredded.

ANGUS

Strathmartin
Here a dragon guarded a well. It ate, one by one, nine maidens who came to draw water. It was finally slain by a man named Martin who had been the lover of one of the devoured girls.

ARGYLLSHIRE

Ben Vair
The hero of this story was a sea captain, Charles the Skipper. He came up with a trap to rid the area of a dragon that was the bane of all. He anchored his ship a little way offshore, and built a bridge from the vessel to the beach. The bridge was made of barrels lashed together and studded with metal spikes.

Then he began to roast some meat on his ship. The smell wafted to the dragon’s lair and it came swooping down to the beach. As it began to crawl across the bridge of barrels, the spikes pierced its hide and one struck the vulnerable spot. The massive beast expired on the bridge long before it got to the ship.

ROSS & CROMARTY

Loch Maree
Until the middle of the 18th century bulls were sacrificed on August 25th (St Maerlrubha’s Day) to dragons that dwelt in the lake. These may have been akin to the creatures still reported in other Scottish Lochs to this day

[quote name='draconic chronicler' date='Mar 6 2007, 01:06 PM' post='1569987']
You are completely off on Western Dragons and Eastern Dragons not having similar characteristics. In ancient times these dragons were remarkably similar in design around the world, carried gods, brought technology to mankind, guarded precious objects, etc.

I was not referring to Lucan as a scientist. That should have been obvious when I also mentioned the testament of Solomon. I mentioned these passages because of your erroneously statement that the dragons of the Greco Roman world were merely giant pythons. Pythons don't fly, but many ancient dragons, all around the world, including the classical world have wings, and do fly.
On Pliny the "scientist"
(Caius Plinius Secundus) (pl´n) (KEY) , c.A.D. 23–A.D. 79, Roman naturalist, b. Cisalpine Gaul. He was a friend and fellow soldier of Vespasian, and he dedicated his great work to Titus. He died of asphyxiation in the neighborhood of Vesuvius, having gone to investigate the eruption. His one surviving work is an encyclopedia of natural science (Historia naturalis). It is divided into 37 books and, after a preface, deals with the nature of the physical universe; geography; anthropology; zoology; botany, including the medicinal uses of plants; curatives derived from the animal world; and mineralogy, including an account of the uses of pigments and a history of the fine arts. Pliny’s industry was immense and his knowledge of sources extensive, but his information is mostly secondhand.
quote]


Because of the size of your post ill deal with it in 2 parts....
ok....
western and chinese dragons are different....
you lumped lucan with pliny, who u claimed was a scientist.....natural assumption that u were claiming that he was also a scientific source....wasnt obvious because u mentioned testement of solomon, most of your claims are grasping at straws - difficult to tell whether ur just logging instances where dragons were mentioned which includes hearsay, myths and legends...often very different to scientific proof, or trying to provide legitimate 'evidence' for the existence of dragons.

"because of your erroneously statement that the dragons of the Greco Roman world were merely giant pythons." i never said such an erroneously statement...lol Please read back and see that i reasoned where Pliny had got his ideas from....the campfire, and tall tales of pythons.
your comprehension skills are either lacking or your trying to put words into my mouth. I asked the question did he use the term improperly? did he know what he was talking about, or was he relying on fabulous and fantastic tales to sell a book.....hmmmm? I asked a lot of questions in that post.
Fortunately for pliny there was more to his Natural History than just fabulous tales.

I am aware of other representations of dragons in the Mediterranean world, but you thought youd namedrop pliny - as a trusted and great scientist - to support your claims, why did you not mention any other.......because their even less credible?
Name some others....which story would you consider to be the source, the reliable one that all other myths were based on? Lucan as i pointed out is certainly neither reliable or the source of the story he tells...to claim that he is is doing him a disservice and misses the greatness of his work.
Again its like saying Paradise Lost by Milton is proof of Lucifer, or that he saw him, or because he exists in this epic poetry fiction- he exists in reality.
The same goes for much of Greek literature....in relation to dragons....can you find any 'reliable ones' which are not allegorical or whimsical poetry? or epic? or steeped in Myth, second-hand? HMMMMMM

And finally in this first part to your lifting of a reference to pliny from an encyclopedia. Many entries are known for their generalisations....if this is the best you can do to 'prove' he was a scientist ... its a shame you didnt actually read his work.
As i said before he did not employ a scientific method. he collected and looked at plants, he was a famously good cook. He was a natural historian, he was interested in things, if he were alive today he might have become a scientist. But the point is he recorded lore as fact, he did not test things, at least not everything. Like Herodotus he also reported hearsay, tall tales, things he could not verify. And so not a scientist by our standards. Although Aristotle was a major influence on him he too could not be regarded as a scientist...did lots of great work in many fields, stimulated interest, observed many things. Eratosthenes was a great mathematician, worked out the circumference of the globe....yes they knew it was round, as many classical depictions of the globe demonstrate...but he was not a scientist. Archimedes, worked out a number of mathematical trueisms, applied some in his inventions; perhaps a forerunner of Leonardo de vinci in some respects, but not a scientist.
all great and gifted men in their fields, and justifyably credited for their contribution to science.....but not scientists......
there are many more... hippocrates for example is considered the father of medical science. Now he did have a method; but his contribution is not enough to call him a scientist by modern standards.....oh and he never saw or reported dragons. This was science in its infancy, still very much clouded and filled with doubt.
i could go on all day and in much greater detail, the point im making, and have made continually is this.....
you claimed to have proof of the existence of winged flying fire-breathing dragons, which could be linked to mythology. and that all the various cultures around the world shared a common link. An actual SPECIES of beings u term dragons.
You claimed that the greatest scientists of ancient times offered proof of their existence. Though u have only named one....pliny.
I countered by pointing out that firstly pliny could not be considered a scientist, with all the authority the term implies.
secondly i posted the references that pliny provides for dragons for all to see, as you should have done if your argument carried any weight, and demonstrated that they did not match your criteria, are not reliable, and are more likely to have been references to large snakes.
You mix the 'evidence' for your claims with the poetic licence of epic poetry and apocryphal theurgy, and expect me to differentiate. Thats your job surely.
if you offer them all as proof i will treat them all as i find them. I have found no proof or truth in any, as i have demonstrated. NONE are reliable, none are scientific.

Look, if your going to release this 'book' of yours and expect it to stand up to academic scruitiny then get used to this. Because it wont.
If however you're not bothered about its acceptance in such circles, and are happy with it gracing the shelves of giftshops and 'special interest' outlets, fine.
There are plenty of suckers out there with less 'education' than you who will buy it, they may even look into the subject...however when they do the clever ones will realise that its not true. by then ull have made ur money so your'e laughing.....w'hey!!! so dont worry about it. they may even thank you for springboarding their intrests into more academic areas.

ill deal with the rest of your post in the next one....i suspect that none of the stories are reliable, especially the ones from wales.....
dude look back over this thread, ull have to modify ur initial argument. unless u can prove me wrong.

ok first reaction????
all of these stories are to be regarded as true???? BUT the bits about people killing them are probably embellishments?????


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.........hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

omgg




must......read.....on.......cant.....makeit.......gotta........get......

and i havent even started yet lol.

dude so u acknowledge some embellishment in these stories? what makes u think that the bits about men killing dragons are the only made up bits?
did dragons have to many Hit points....lol
was their Strength enhanced +3 by 'magic scales'

uve done too much roleplay.

ok quickly scanned through them .... u got these from a victorian book about dragon tales in Britain didnt u. collected stories from the villages....hearsay and unreliable....im familiar with some of them.....

makes great reading, when ive got more time ill go back over them, but itll suffice for now to show how the country bumpkins, as the urban writer sees them concocted tales of dragons from things they didnt understand....anybody reading these, of sound mind, will appreciate this

it supports my argument more than urs.
The helston one sounds like a meteor to me, been there lots got mates from there...they'll find it funny.
MAnaton...gass in the mines???? causing explosions of fire???? it happens....is this an early attempt to explain? Early miners also used tales of 'knockers' to explain strange sounds in mines, are they as reliable?


shows tales of dragons comes from a variety of phenomenon that cant be explained, like 'aliens' today.

dude uve gotta do better than that.

This is a very good theory! It also crossed my mind

The idea of ancient people using the findings of dino bones to explain dragons was came up by a scientist that just didn’t want to take the time to think about the long line of dragon history. The fact is that people way back then could in no way know what those bones where. no they couldn’t have found a full skeleton there way to rare and most bones found by ancient people where just fragments of bone.

Dino bones as dragon myth explanation NOPE I would have to say. Dragons are either inventive myth or there was some sort of creature that lived way back when.

Gremlin Do you play city of heroes cuz that name sounds familiar

nope sorry, dont even know what it is.

I found your post interesting.
I dont think that people in the past would have dug up a whole skeleton, perhaps not at first....but i wasnt there so i dont know.
surely a skull would have done to get the mind racing though, even a lower jaw. or a claw.

I think the truth lies in a number of different sources, which later converged into what we now term dragon.
Snake cults were and still are popular with simple tribes, hunter gatherers and early farmers. some still exist in indonesia and pacific islands.
I saw a documentary on one, and whilst the creatures that inhabited the cave in question were constrictor snakes, the people danced to placate the King Serpent, wearing what looks like dragon masks, and other decorations which can be interpreted as tails and even wings.....even though these folk see the beasties on a daily basis.

snake cults occur on every continent, and often on a simple level have shown people how to survive in various environments....just like many animals....
Consider the totemism of these early cultures,
Often in mythological tales one tribe bashes another and wins, but the story survives as one mythological beastie defeating another. Where u have two similar totem cultures together, lets say two snakes, they take on other differentiating attributes, for example those living in the highlands might adorn theirs with wings, others with multiple heads.
later a 'hero' from a more complex society (which may embody a group or army) encounters the early tribe and wipes it out.....so then we get a story of a hero defeating the multi-headed snake monster....or other varients.
this is the nature of symbolism inherent in mythology and oral traditions.....later these oral traditions are written down, either as the society becomes literate, or by a literate society that comes into contact with it.

Admitedly it may not be the case in every instance, but it is ONE of the roots.

Later one of these totem loving people move, or are moved perhaps forcibly.....like the sarmatians to britain.
the britons ingratiate these exotic people and listen to their frightning tales of dragons.....remember no tv, no csi miami.
the myth becomes ingrained, and changes slightly.....

NOW when u get unexplained phenomenon going on like explosions in caves, maggots on dead bodies, meteors etc.....they look for explainations within their frame of reference........and like aliens are used today to explain lots of goings on, dragons were a handy candidate.....
so they took on fire breathing traits....

remember mining occurred everywhere once metal became THE MOD CON. and even in the darkest deepest caves build-ups of gass often occurs, so things didnt have to happen in the order ive outlined above. There are many varients.

So agreed dinosaur bones may not have been THE start of the myth, but where they were found they were used as proof.

I wasnt there, i didnt do it.

If u want me to address specific cultures, or tales let me know, because there is often a 'rational' explaination.......
and no, a species of dragons which controlled early cultures, started off the myths universally, that still lives-somewhere today- IS NOT one of them.
dont pay much attention to DC he just wants to sell u books, im not selling anything.....not asking u to believe me either, its up to u to consider things; dont go for the 'easy option' offered by some tho. If u really want to know, TELE LEGE...(pick-up and read)

I'd say that maybe the dragons of old could have been our dinosaurs... after all we have only been discussing .. using the term 'dinosaurs' for a little over 200 years or so...

http://www.dinohunters.com/

"A History of Dinosaur Hunting and Reconstruction



In 1822 Gideon Mantell, a doctor from Lewes, East Sussex, described a fossil tooth which his wife had found by the side of the road in Cuckfield, West Sussex. This tooth was the first dinosaur fossil in the world ever to be identified. For the very first time people began to realise that creatures as large as dinosaurs had once existed.

Gideon Mantell went on to search for, discover and identify many other dinosaur remains.

He was the first dinosaur hunter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Mantell


so before then they were probably seen as dragons etc...

And I'm sure just like the Mummies of Egypt... they would have seen as having medicinal qualities... and would have been ground for medicines.. potions....

in China... ??? only for 100 years???
http://www.gwu.edu/~clade/faculty/clark/china.html


http://www.isgs.uiuc.edu/faq/dino-faqs/pdq234.html


"Mythological Creatures and Dinosaurs

Question: Do mythological creatures stem from the idea of dinosaurs?

Answer: Yes it appears they do. A number of the Chinese myths (dragons for example) are thought to be partly stimulated by the large fossil bones found in China and Mongolia of Dinosaurs (and other prehistoric creatures also besides dinosaurs). In fact some of them were ground up for medicinal purposes, from what I remember reading, and were called "dragon bones".

Native Americans were aware of large prehistoric bones in the west (both dinosaurs as well as large Tertiary mammals such as the Titanotheres). I think for example their stories of "thunder buffalo" (or similar term) were often used to correct misbehaving children, were related to the large bones found in badland areas, and were often exposed after downpours associated with thunderstorms (hence the mythical giant thunder buffalo which would come back if the children continued to misbehave).

Also which Dinosaurs most closely resemble mythical creatures (unicorn, pegasus, griphon, dragon) ?

A study I have seen shows that the Griffins probably stem from the bones of Protoceratops seen in Mongolia. I saw a comparison that these mythical creatures were assumed to be real and the parrot-beaked skulls and rest of skeletons were easily "reconstructed" to fit the concept of Griffins.

Here is a link to a recent book by Adrienne Mayor on how fossil bone finds often were thought to be remains of mythical creatures in Greek and Roman times (both Ice Age mammals as well as Mesozoic dinosaurs and other vertebrates).

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0632...F9xzssJfE6XO0WM

I'd say that maybe the dragons of old could have been our dinosaurs... after all we have only been discussing .. using the term 'dinosaurs' for a little over 200 years or so...

http://www.dinohunters.com/

"A History of Dinosaur Hunting and Reconstruction



In 1822 Gideon Mantell, a doctor from Lewes, East Sussex, described a fossil tooth which his wife had found by the side of the road in Cuckfield, West Sussex. This tooth was the first dinosaur fossil in the world ever to be identified. For the very first time people began to realise that creatures as large as dinosaurs had once existed.

Gideon Mantell went on to search for, discover and identify many other dinosaur remains.

He was the first dinosaur hunter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon_Mantell


so before then they were probably seen as dragons etc...

And I'm sure just like the Mummies of Egypt... they would have seen as having medicinal qualities... and would have been ground for medicines.. potions....

************



First Dinosaur Fossil Discoveries



The first 3 dinosaur fossils led to the recognition of a new group of animals, the dinosaurs.
The first nearly-complete dinosaur skeleton in New Jersey spurs modern paleontology.

People have been finding dinosaur fossils for hundreds of years, probably even thousands of years. The Greeks and Romans may have found fossils, giving rise to their many ogre and griffin legends. There are references to "dragon" bones found in Wucheng, Sichuan, China (written by Chang Qu) over 2,000 years ago; these were probably dinosaur fossils.

Much later, in 1676, a huge thigh bone (femur) was found in England by Reverend Plot. It was thought that the bone belonged to a "giant," but was probably from a dinosaur. A report of this find was published by R. Brookes in 1763.

The First Dinosaur Fossil Scientifically Described
The first dinosaur to be described scientifically was Megalosaurus. This genus was named in 1824, by William Buckland; Gideon Mantell (not Ferdinand August von Ritgen) assigned the scientific type species name, Megalosaurus bucklandii. Buckland (1784-1856) was a British fossil hunter and clergyman who discovered collected fossils. (Note: the first dinosaur found was Iguanodon, but it was named and described later than Megalodon.)

It was the first dinosaur ever described scientifically and first theropod dinosaur discovered (this is all in hindsight, because the dinosaurs had not yet been recognized as a separate taxonomic group - the word dinosaur hadn't even been invented yet).

The first dinosaur models (life size and made of concrete) were made by Benjamin Waterhouse Hawkins of England in 1854. The first dinosaur used for amusement was a life-size model of an Iguanodon (made by Hawkins) that was used to house a dinner party for scientists (including Richard Owen) at a major exhibition. The invitations to the party were sent on fake pterodactyl wings. The party took place in London, England, in 1854



http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/...ils/First.shtml

excellent points crystal sage...makes for interesting reading.

its a bit like the chicken and the egg scenario tho innit? which came first...
did they find bones and concoct lots of different explainations, of which 'dragon' became popular?....this might imply that the concept 'dragon' already existed. did they draw what they pictured or described as an explaination, and then gave birth to the concept 'dragon'?

like dinosaur (terrible lizard) the word 'dragon' has possibly been used like an umbrella. to describe a number of different creatures, who in their own cultures had different names and meanings. then some dopey scholar, possibly a natural historian, comes along in his pith helmet and goes....."Ah I see, Parukanda is a dragon." then writes a book about it....

a rather glib description i know, but i get bored sometimes.

worms, serpents, wyvrens, seraphim, cockatrices all seem to come under the term in literature and stories.

interestin subject, good thread.

like all umbrella terms, it must have had an origin, signifying one subject.....pliny as mentioned earlier says dragons were serpents who had no venom, and constricted their prey.....but then he also says they killed elephants hehehe. was it already an umbrella term in his day, which incorporated unfamiliar snakes?
would it therefore also have been used interchangably with crocodile, monitor lizard, iguana, komodo dragon? if he had seen or heard stories of them too?

truth is we dont know....never will...maybe all of the above.
the dinosaur/dragon issue is very much chicken and the egg.
what is also true, as ur posts crystal points out, is that at the least, dinosaur bones provided proof of dragons even if they were not the source.

A+ all round then chaps, appart from DC who gets an F.


lol just joshing.

http://www.nwcreation.net/dinosdragons.html


http://www.omniology.com/LivingPterodactyls.html


...3 live Pterodactyls shot during the civil war.....

TWO OF THESE PTERODACTYLS ARE DOCUMENTED IN THE BOOK,
"THE ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF DINOSAURS"
BY DR. DAVID NORMAN & DR. PETER WELLNHOFER.

RUMORS ON THE INTERNET ARE THAT ONE OF THE TWO GROUP PICTURES IS A STAGED PHOTO THAT WAS DONE BY A DOCUMENTARY FILM COMPANY, BASED ON THE ORIGINAL PHOTO. IF THIS IS TRUE AND WE FIND OUT WHICH IS WHICH, WE WILL UPDATE THIS PAGE.

Great links fella, gonna keep me interested for a while.....
much appreciated.

Pterasaurs are not dinosaurs. There is not evidence for living pterasaurs, firstly they require open spaces which would make them very easy to find, secondly they would leave evidence of their existance. Deal with there extinction, there is no evidence that shows the either dinosaurs, pterasaurs or giant marine reptiles are still in existance or have been in the the last 65 million years or that humans have ever come close to a dinosaur that was fossilised.

dont really want to speak for someone, crystal can do that himself...but not sure he posted the link in order to prove that they still exist....quite sure he is aware that the article/pic is a hoax. but fun to note and see....makes interesting read.
nobody is arguing with what u say....i think.
look back on the thread and then ull have a better idea where people are comming from.

oops double post....

My opinion is that maybe there were dragons and other mythical creatures living at certain times that have since died out, just because no one has found any "dragon" bones means zip. The whole earth hasn't been dug up yet. They are finding new species all the time in fossil digs, look at the most recent ones in Papua New Guinea, something like 20 new species of fauna have been identified that they didn't previously know about, maybe they just haven't found them yet, its arrogant to think that they didn't exist just because someone hasn't found any yet. Maybe they have, it always amazes me how they can put together a whole picture of a dinosaur from one piece of jawline or such. They don't know of any skin colours but are always drawn coloured, it is just their ideas of what they look like that creates the pictures of most dinosaurs we see in books today. I agree some full fossils have been found but most are only pieces and then presto, a new dinosaur is created. Just my opinion.

You still don't seem to get it Grem. The ba