Consciousness has not been "proven" and so therefor God remains "unproven"

Disbelief in theory is called "SKEPTICISM" not "FAITH".


And no matter how many times you try to say its the same, its just your personal interpretation of it which you are welcome to.

If you wish to call your skepticism, 'faith' its your choice.

There cannot be a design without a designer, contrivance without a contriver, order without choice, arrangement without anything capable of arranging.

--- Skakira Karipinemi

You saying consciousness doesnt exist? How then were you able to consciously write this post?????? Also skepticism requires faith because you have faith in your skepticism. If you had no faith in your skepticism you wouldnt be skeptical.

Skepticism isnt faith but cannot be effectively used without faith.

Yes it can, you just don't understand how it can be done.

Seems like most of the rest of us can and do and have gotten on with it.

I suggest that you do a bit of research on this, since you say you like to study up on things before forming opinions about them.

You are quite incorrect.

I am skeptical that I can fly. I would really like to be able to fly but I can't. There's no faith in it.

I can understand that you might be intimidated by this kind of thinking. But try to get over your fears and really look at it.

It's really not as complicated as you are trying to make it.

Good point..but least you forget that even those that are religious are also skeptical....they are very skeptical in the notion that God does not exist..they find that hard to believe he dont exist

I say that consciousness is God is unproven because neither God or consciousness has actually been proven in a way that could then be used to prove anything else.

Kinda like a no brainer. Its like saying " Santa Claus lives in the North Pole" So therefor if we know there is a North Pole we know there is a Santa Claus.

Anyway....bored again with this.

Just as your "god is everything", "anything is possible", etc stories which you speak of as facts.

And no matter how you spin it, atheists do not have religious faith. I deny something that can't be proven because I see no reason to have faith in it. I do not have faith in the non-existence of it, I simply see no reason to believe it exists.

And believing in something you can't see is not faith if you do it with reasonable evidence. Religious faith is about throwing evidence and proof out the window, and simply believing.

How???



Who is this "rest" you speak of????



So you saying a scientist or atheist doesnt have faith in their skepticism that God does not exist? Or faith in their point of view i.e. evolution.



How so?



Yes you have faith or trust (remembering faith is a synonym for trust) that you cannot fly.



What fears? That an atheist needs faith to not believe in God?



If so then explain it really simple like

I say God is proven as consciousness is proven and consider them both to be the same. I dont believe God lives in consciousness or vice versa I actually believe that God is consciousness and vice versa. Both are beyond physical definability.

I speak of them as facts, doesnt mean they are. I have never forced them down anyone's throat.



Atheism is itself a religion and therefore a religious faith. Faith is a synonym for "trust" I have faith or "trust" in God's existence while you have Faith or "trust" in God's non-existence.



No it isnt. That is only "orthodox" religion. Also what about consciousness???? We can't see, hear, smell, taste or touch it yet we all know it exists. It cannot be scientifically proven. But we consider it proven anyway. Science is not the only benchmark for proving phenomena.

Like an objective reality cannot be proven or disproven. Because we only experience the subjective reality that our brains create for us to experience. Hence it takes faith or trust (different word with same meaning) to believe in the existence or non-existence of an objective world.

Athesim is a belief system whether personal or organized. If it wasnt then it wouldnt even have a name.

Faith is not only a synonym for trust, but one for belief. Atheists have the trust form, theists have both forms.

Why do people keep saying this? Let's see.. I have almost no supernatural beliefs, I do not gather with other atheists, I have no holy book, no pre-determined doctrine, I decide everything I do in life based on what I see correctly.

I am not religious, I have no religion, and atheism is not a religion.

According to wikipedia.com:

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a human community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Atheism has.. none of those qualities. It is not a religion by definition, and never will be. Why can people not even let that simple fact be what it is? Calling atheism a religion makes no more sense than calling ice a gas. You can refer to it as whatever you want, but by definition, it is what it is.

So do atheists. They believe in the non-existence of God. It simply a different speech pattern or a different way of putting I dont believe in God's existence.



How do you know whether it is correct or not? Your faith is your own guide to what you think is correct or not. Or you may have faith in a scientific consensus that says it is correct



Well according to me it is



See the parts I put in bold??? Personal faith as in your personal faith in your personal atheist ideals. And a religion is generally recognised as a human community involving aderence to codified beliefs and rituals etc etc

This means it isn't a rigid definition and is open to personal belief system including the doctrine of atheism.




None???? Well I consider "writings, history" at least a part of Atheism. Atheism has a history and there are many atheists including famous one's who have systematized atheist doctrines and who are looked up to by fellow atheists. There are even different branches of atheism ie. strong atheism, weak atheism...

So yes atheism does have some or enough qualities of a religion to be qualified as a religion in its own right.

No, No, No.............well that means I cannot be an Athiest anymore because I refuse to be part of any religion. I am Athiest because I do not believe in God or Gods of any kind but also because I do not want to partake in a religion of any kind as I see them as something I do not want to be personally associated with, I do not want to be religious in any way, shape or form. So in your mind I as an Athiest follow a religion? You gotta be kidding me Brave....

Atheism is a religion to me. A non-spiritual religion if you like. In my eyes if you want to be free of any religious label then hold no opinion or view about the universe or your being in any way or form. Because anyone's personal beliefs or non-beliefs shape a persons world view and that world view is their personal religion.

When this world view is expanded out to other individuals and other individuals adhere to it and systematize it into a social doctrine or hold social meetings over a particular doctrine then it becomes an "organized religion". If this organized religion does not allow any new insight or change to its doctrine then it becomes what is known as an "orthodox religion."

Big difference between one's personal religion and an organized orthodox religion.

Take this definition of religion by Kahlil Gibran. His view on religion was that it is personal and did not require an organized institution. Anyway In a book called "The "Prophet" he expresses his view on religion through the prophet character. I think it is one of the best summaries or explanation of religion there is.

Here it is:

And an old priest said, Speak to us of Religion. And he (the prophet) said:

Have I spoken this day of aught else?
is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a
wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even
while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?
Who can spread his hours before him saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul and this for my body"?
All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.
The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin. And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.
The freest song comes not through bars and wires.
And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open
but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.
Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.
Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lutes,
The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.

For in reverie you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.
And take with you all men:
For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God, be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightening and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.

Does that sound like the writings of a dogmatic person who allows an institution to take responsibility for his actions? I'd find it difficult to think it was. Or part of Mahatma Gandhi's definition of Religion:Religion which takes no account of practical affairs and does not help solve them, is no religion.

Does not atheism take in practical affairs? Does not atheism claim to be more practical than other religions because it (or thinks) pays no heed to the abstract? Atheism does not believe in God and they cannot prove God does not exist. It takes "faith" to have faith in this belief or non-belief.

Hmmmmmmm...okie dokie
I will take it on board because I respect your opinion but (and I always have a but) remember also just because some wise person or persons (a priest, a prophet and a religious leader no less) have stated that personal belief or opinion is a personal religion does not make it so. A dictionary says Religion: system of belief in and worship of a supernatural power or god. Since I don't adhere to that description I see myself as a non religious person. Both of us are just quoting someones interpretation of the word religion I guess in the long run.

And I appreciate your time in answering me.

A tad disrespectful towards atheists IMO

You know fine well they DONT believe in God or religion...to be part of a religion you must believe in it....atheists dont...thats WHY they are atheists

LOL thats like saying..just because an atheist says the words - I BELIEVE..WOW PRESTO that must mean they are part of a religion LMAO

Hey you are speptical of the non existence of God...skeptical of the non existance of spirituality and all it stands for...say...does this make you part atheist??

To be part of religion..you must believe in the spiritual world..religion & a diety..........once again atheists DON'T

But I love how you build a lil reality and then live in it

All definitions have many different approaches depending on the context to which they are used. What you have written highlights an aspect of some definitions of religion but not of all.

There are some valid approaches towards the defining of the word religion that simply require belief in something to attain its catagorisation as a religion. This supports the notion however ridiculous it may sound and difficult it is to accept that in many acceptable and validated perspectives, atheism can be unobjectably labeled as a religion.

I am also noticing interestingly that in many of the individual perspectives in this thread, the above is not accepted, and even rejected with great partiality* ...ah, vagueness

Why do people seem to want one answer?



*this point and term partiality also encompasses the overlooked relationship between faith and fact, a term used many times within this thread for arguments.

Does our belief in "facts" not make peoples arguments somewhat biased?

What a beautiful eloquently written post.

How? All I am saying is that there personal world view is their own subjective religion and that this religion can exist without a faith or belief in God. I am not ridiculing them for not believing in God.




Our religion whether personal or organized is made up of our personal or collective beliefs. God doesnt have to enter into the equasion of religion.



I believe God is infinite possibility and this also includes a universe in which God does not exist. And yes I guess it does make me part atheist. I have never denied this. Religion doesnt have to involve a deity. If I wasnt part atheist the I would lieing if I said I believed in a God of infinite possibility.

Brave can read this too..I got too lazy and thought I'd kill two birds with one stone as the saying goes..lol

regardless how you wish to word it lol, it goes to show you that, people who lable atheists as being part of a religion, as far as I am concerned, it is to wind them up, that’s WHY in a previous thread, a lot where a tad pissed off, at people saying silly things like that

I mean - If a lot of us believers read that each of us that follows God, are also related to atheism in a big way - look the word atheism up in a dictionary or in a Thesaurus (if handy) and one word that sticks out a lot, like a sore thumb, that happens to be -->> Dis Belief..and here's another word that sticks out a lot WOW its ....--> SKEPTIC now...we that follow God, are IN FACT ..skeptical of the ideas that our God does NOT exist..ohh and if you like we show a great DEAL of the other magic word that pops up taken from the meaning of Atheism..and that is, we hold great DIS BELIEF in the theory there is NO GOD..VOLA. ...but wait.............what’s the bet a bunch of believers would climb out of the wood work and say - YO back off a sec..WTF?? don’t sit there telling me if the situation was reversed, it wouldn’t happen..LMAO don't, cuz you know it would

But i'll let you think what you want, brave too lol...but good job there are very few of you that do and far between lol

good luck guys

Only ignorance shows this kind of attitude IMO <--look carefully

Actually, as a Deist, I do not have faith that there is a Creator. I look at the evidence for the existence of a Creator, but keep an open mind. If it became evident that there was more evidence for the non-existence of a Creator, then I would no longer be a Deist or any other stripe of Theist. Any religion that requires faith, can only be a human construct; with little or no truth to it....

Hi Mako

Thats a cool approach, i think like that sometimes too but probably not often enough to want to commit myself to the title

Was just wondering...

Is your approach towards this matter one that you trust and believe in?

nn23

·the·ism (Ä�'thÄ“-Ä­z'É™m) Pronunciation Key
n.
1.Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2.The doctrine that there is no God or gods.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism


doctrine
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: opinion
Synonyms: article, attitude, axiom, basic, belief, canon, concept, convention, conviction, credenda, creed, declaration, dogma, fundamental, gospel, implantation, inculcation, indoctrination, instruction, position, precept, principle, pronouncement, propaganda, proposition, regulation, rule, statement, teaching, tenet, tradition, universal law, unwritten rule

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/doctrine



religion
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: belief
Synonyms: adoration, bent, ceremonial, church, communion, connection, conscientiousness, consecration, creed, cult, denomination, devotion, devoutness, doctrine, faithfulness, fidelity, godliness, morality, myth, mythology, observance, orthodoxy, persuasion, pietism, piety, prayer, preference, religiosity, rites, ritual, sacrifice, sanctification, sect, spiritual-mindedness, spirituality, standards, superstition, theology, veneration

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/religion

Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of God or in the disbelief of God. Both are the same thing using different words. Atheism is a religion. A non-belief is the belief in the non-belief of something. It is still a belief.

Im only aware of how ignorant I am. I've never said otherwise......

Actually anyone can be aware of how ignorant a person can be. I mean if I tell you my name is Cadetak and you say "no its Billy" then anyone can see that you are ignorant to the fact that my name is Cadetak. Just wanted to clear that up.

Anyways people need to understand that the word faith and its meaning isn't just about religion...by all intents and purposes faith is one part hope and one part trust. Theists trust taht their holy books and priests are right, Atheists trust in their research and scientists to be right....Theist hope that God is real, Atheist hope he is not.

Theists believe that there is a God, Atheist believe that there isn't a God. The core word there is belief and to have a belief you need faith...or you wouldn't believe it at all.

Hehehe you read me wrong. I meant I am only ignorant as in it is the only thing I know at the exclusion of everything else. Not I only know and no one else with subjective experience knows.

pfft that was me just nit picking because it is late and I'm tired...I needed you to support the rest of my post so we can win this debate.

hehe

I agree the other part of your post totally.

I just don't think people get the idea that a disbelief is also a belief...even though it sounds retarded and is an oxymoron it makes sense.

If you really think about Theists are part Atheist too...for example a Christian only believes in one of the hundreds of Gods, an Atheist just believes in one less. Maybe if a Christian knew why they don't believe in Zeus they would understand why Atheists don't believe in their god.

Ya. I agree here wholeheartedly. One can easily say that the atheist belief system is based on their non-beliefs if you like. A non-belief is the belief in the non-existence of something or belief in the rejection of something. It is still a conviction and there for a strong belief.

If you play with the wording it makes more sense I think. Like for example many theists disbelieve in the existence of evolution and the big bang...the belief in God is the disbelief in Zeus.

The only difference is that your placing your faith at the other end.

Faith is a very simple word...its just a mix of trust and hope. To have a belief is to have faith...you cannot have a belief without faith. When you start a sentence with "I believe..." it doesn't matter what comes after it..."I believe in God", "I believe God doesn't exist", "I believe American Idol is the worst show ever"...it all means the same, it means you believe.

HA HAAA, NICE ONE Brave, thats exactly what i was going to do!



We see a reflection of ourselves everywhere



Well said Cadetak, i'm so glad someone else understands this view point, Brave seems to have been arguing this very proficiently on his own, but it is funny, its so obvious, why is it something that requires such opposition?



Regards to all
nn23

I've not yet posted in here (I don't think) but I have been following this conversation when I can.

I agree with you Cadetak. I personally think that Atheists must have faith, because of the word belief, but I'm just going to play with these ideas for a second.
All of these beliefs you have presented are based on opinion, what if an atheist claims "God, doesn't exist, this is fact." Would they still have faith? Surely our thoughts are applied to our perceptions. One could say, there is no fact only perception. It is what it is, but the way we each see it is what matters to us. But does it really matter? Anyway, to define words is useful, but we can never truly understand how another perceives those words, what definitions and associations they have attached to those words. Until we can come to the same understanding, it's difficult to debate these concepts. Has everyone agreed on the same definitions?

Sorry if someone already said this, I've had to skim here and there.

It's not a dictionary throwing contest LMAO..

when in Rome lol


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
a•the•ism (ā'thē-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.


NOWHERE does it read that athesim is a religion

but hey I guess if you wrote YOUR OWN version of the dictionary...call it Braves wacky dictionary...im sure you will make yourself feel a teeny weeny more convinced and tell yourself..I am right..ner ner............cuz thats the only way anyone will take you serious LMAO

Religious people can be called part athiests.........but only a prat would say that, to show how clueless they are
Atheists are non belivers..thats it...but say if you want me to make you feel good and better............i'll agree with you

So yes for your sake and ONLY your sake athesim is a religious cult LOL

I beliver you..........millions wouldn't LOL

You crack me up though LOL....the world according to Garp Brave...has a nice ring to it lol

Don't LIE LMAO no you wernt going to do that...you waited till brave did it 1st..cuz scroll up..you entered the thread, saw my responce and descided to reply to someone elses instead (most likely waiting for the brave one to return lol)


FYI nn23....I have nothing against brave..just because I disagree with him on this...dont mean I have something against him...i like him for his other posts..and yea I think he is fun person around here

just incase ya get your knickers in a twist

No LOL i wasn't calling you ignorant LOL when i wrote the following (that you quoted)...

Only ignorance shows this kind of attitude IMO <--look carefully

I was pointing at the end of the sentence where I wrote IMO and asked you to look carefully at where i stated IMO...see?

HA HAAAA

BECKYS_MOM TAKES CHEAP SHOT

yeah your kind of right, the complete day to day exacting (toe nail clippings and all) truth would have taken too many words. Means justifying ends and all that. What i could have said was...

"NICE ONE Brave, i was planning to do that but i've only been using the internet since christmas and still dont feel completely confident in my searches, my local library was closed and i was too tired at the time, so thought i would get me some kip instead and do it in the morn only to spot that you already had and didnt mind at all because i knew you could probably do it a-lot more easily and precisely than me seeing as you seem very well read. Infact it was a pleasure to read as with many of your posts"

hmmmm, bit to much information dont you think?

I felt no need to justify what circumstances led to me not getting there before Brave seeing as he had achieved the goal anyway and its just a bit of interlectual play time

So, i summed it up with "NICE ONE Brave, thats exactly what i was going to do!"

I probably just felt it sounded nice, complemented him a bit (but not too much, you know what men are like ) and also highlighted that i had thought of it too for my own personal esteem needs.

I mean, come on Beckys_Mom, just imagine that you are someone who agrees with the point that we are trying to make for a few seconds if possible. When someone (that would be you if you werent role playing us) makes a statement about a words definition and applicability that i had already said in a post earlier was just one possiblity
The next and obvious step in response to your/that person's opposing reply would have been to prove my statement by finding some links to go with it. The statement above in question is just something obvious to me from my experience and studies of sociology et al and i did not want to make a fool of myself or look big headed by putting in book references because everyone else appears to use internet links.





And whats wrong with that exactly?

I have evidence from personal experience that fortifys my belief and therefore gives me faith that twisting knickers can be a very creative and pleasurable exercise.



NICE ONE Beckys_Mom

nn23

WOOO! It's gettin' all het up in here! gettin knickers in a twist/panties in a wad!

Besides, I'm pretty sure these words have been defined at least a few times either in this thread or another one like it. Oh not the definitions of knickers, twist, etc, but believe, faith etc., just to clarify!

I have to say though,
~Twisted Knickers~ would be a good band name

HE HE HE hYE hYE hYE YE E E EA EAAHHH!



nn23

Saying "God doesn't exist and that is fact" requires more faith then saying "I believe God doesn't exist". Now the person who thinks that it is proven fact that God doesn't exist will tell everyone that he doesn't have faith...but to make such a statement it would require faith.

Any statement that cannot be backed up with concrete 100% truth requires Faith...if it is already 100% true then it isn't faith, it's just knowledge.

Yes I agree with you sir! Ok, I really love to speculate: I was pondering the concept of atheism, and I was wondering if there have ever been any isolated cultures that were known to have been atheist. I tried to do a search on this and I couldnt' find any evidence to support it. Anyhow, let's suppose that there was such a culture, one that had no belief, and absolutely no knowledge of any God. Let's just say they had a clean slate....Nothing. Would they still have faith then?

edited for spelling

Hmmm, doesnt believeing truth is 100% and concrete perhaps require faith aswell?


nn23

WHY NOT??? i was just trying to suss that one, i was thinking about what other doctrine they would have in place and how they would have to have faith in that, it was cool to think about though. I mean, how would never having a faith in a religious icon or authoritive figure affect the structure of a society? Theres LOADS of stuff there! It would affect EVERYTHING!

OH thank you! I had a slight meltdown for a sec! So I put it back up really quick !

Believing that truth is one hundred percent truth requires faith but knowing doesnt. Because you know ,you dont have to believe or trust because it is the way it is. So I think.

Not that I am saying "I know" truth. I do believe that it can happen though and until I achieve it I must quench my longings with faith.

i dont get that, how can you know?

Sometimes i feel like i know, i experience it as a senSAtion, many convince themselves that what they sense...is reliable.

We convince ourselves with these "validation through consistency" logic bound methods of evaluating evidence, but these methods of analysis in some ways contradict the possibility of any other methods. I find it hard to trust knowledge, i feel its possible there is more...this is weird

explain for me please!

Whats that, faith that you know, or faith that you will find out?

When you know you just know. It is a feeling of intuitive knowledge which leaves no room for interpretation.

Im not so articulate for this. But one psyhiatrist called Cark Gustov Jung put it very smoothly:

The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it- I don't need to believe it.

Yeah yeah, i know Jung ha ha I KNOW LMAO ...its so ridiculous, why cant my brain handle it?

Its a feeling of intuitive knowledge? is that what you believe then?....yeah i know, words words words which i guess what encompasses the "no room for interpretation" but then if knowledge gets this "get out of jail free card", what of everything else? there is a contradiction when using the formal methods of evaluation to make sense out of it?

Thats what bothers me, what are the constructs for the other methods of evaluation, people assume that because none have been proven by formal methods this automatically means that they dont exist....URH BLAHHHH he he.

hmm, do you think that your personal beliefs about knowledge make it difficult for you to see that belief in and that you have knowledge could possibly be something that requires faith, in the same way possibly that some people have found it hard to see that Atheists require faith?