http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/44112/


http://www.advancetitan.com/story.asp?issu...&story=5829

Discuss!!!!! Has christanity gone to far???

the story aired tonight on world news tonight ABC channel 7 ....They also said that 90 percent of the purity contracts are broken few can remain "pure ' until marriage...

And I thought I had heard of some wierd sh**e.

Gotta love them purity cult movements.

But what a market! Purity Rings

Few can, or few choose to? Too often we identify impulses as needs and fail to restrain them appropriately.

Speakers not working right now, not sure if there was audio on there that was important, but some people believe like this: The father is the spiritual head of the family, and has an obligation to protect their children from outside influences that will destroy the decisions that he has made for the health of his family. As minors, young girls AND boys need to listen to their fathers. I can see how this could easily be interpreted as a creep factor by some. The mother should be the one speaking to the daughter more intimately about modesty, physical health, and the repercussions of pre-marital sex. I personally think these ceremonies are inappropriate. I can see the seed of the thought process that may have gone wrong. As in, the basis of what you look for in a mate is modeled in so many ways on your opposite-sex parent.
Also, another factor: So many girls feel worthless because of never having had a father that communicated basic ideas of her worth, that her modesty was something special that she should not throw away on every little jerk that looked at her. Sadly, this is what most teenage girls do today, this is what is modeled BY AND LARGE in secular "progressive" culture. I think they may be going about it the wrong way, but many of these fathers may be trying to tell their daughters that they are worth something, special, loved. Like it or not, each of us has a need for attention from a "special someone." At a certain age that starts to manifest itself, and instead of handing out condoms and telling them to do what feels good and let the cookie crumble where it may, these families are choosing to make a stand and tell their children (albeit in a way that you may not agree with) that becuase they are loved by their families so much, and their parents recognize that they are starting to grow into adults and beginning to have concepts of adult desires; they wish to let these children know that it is okay to stand up to peer and societal pressure which tells them to do whatever they want when they may not be fully emotionally mature enough to deal with it. These parents I think want to handle the growing-up process in a way that tells the kids, we want to begin this part of your life with the ideals that because your father loves you so much, you are valuable, and should expect the man you want to marry to honor you and protect you this much. Young girls are screwed for life (or at least until many mistakes, soul-searching, and/or therapy a lot of the time) by having fathers who do not communicate love and worth to her. My best friend in Georgia (no she's not a redneck she was raised in the big city of San Diego and just moved to the mountains because she liked it) has an 11-year-old son, and she imparts to him basic ideas of respect for women, and how women should be treated i.e. never hit, try to see her point of view not just your own, and it's nice to open the door for her. I think part of each parent's resposibility is to be a model to their same-gender child of the most gracious and loving representation of that gender, and to their opposite-gender child how they should expect to be treated in their marriage, and more importantly how they should treat their spouse. It is ideally, the best for parents to stay together through trials and even less than amorous mood swings and difficulties to be a model together of a functional and joyous marriage for all the children to see, and then emulate in their own marriages. This is the ideal goal of most Bible-believing Christians although I am not speaking for all. This of course does not happen in real life. However, I just thought I would share a Christian point of view and offer my best guess and interpretation of this practice for your consideration. I think for myself this crosses the line, I would rather the dad talk frankly to the son about sex and marriage, and the mom do likewise with the daughter, with the whole family being in consensus and the children understanding the boundaries, and the consequences and benefits thereof. This all of course is MO. Peace.

texas can you elaborate on this ...i wouldn't want to misinterperet..

Personally, I think that proms in general are so tacky and overblown that hearing about a "purity prom" makes we want to just dump the whole business. Now before you conjecture that I'm bitter from not having had a date--I was in a long term relationship at the time, which I am still in, and we went together. But it was incredibly pointless. Attendance was low, most people left in the first ~90 minutes, and everything felt forced. I guess for most people it was all about getting drunk (illegally) at the afterparties. We could have had a much better time, for less than half the money, if we'd spent some time together and gotten dinner.

But about these purity proms! I have to admit it sounds a little creepy. I think abstinence is a good thing, I think it's perfectly endorseable, but the boy and girl have to be at the front of it, not the parents. And it has to be their choice, for both the kids and parents' sakes.

I opted out of the prom gig too, just silly so don't feel alone...


I think education and a healthy understanding of ones sexuality is the best personal guide, to deny ones sexuality to infer its somehow impure is the first step towards a problem. and this is downright creepy, as if ones sexuality is to be decided by the father.....I'm not sure if htis is really a joke and i missed the punch line
Now adays alot of these ideas are just silly...and IMO show a lack of understanding about human sexuality....

Gw great find LOL.....

Well the idea that the purity contracts or whatever they're called (I'm only vaguely familiar with this idea) are broken because the young people CAN'T honor them, is what I was directing this comment toward. It is my opinion that young people are in fact fully capable of maintaining abstinence until marriage, and choose not to, for a variety of reasons. It is a personal peeve of mine that so often we don't teach young people to avoid behaviors that have negative consequences; because they misconstrue, with our guidance, the DESIRE to perform these behaviors, for the NEED to perfom these behaviors. In other words, it bothers me that activities that good judgement tells us have detrimental consequences yet are not actual neccesities, often are represented as legitimate needs and we should satisfy the need, because we're human and being human is about satisfying needs ("scratching the itch") and suffer the consequences. I believe it is far more intelligent to teach children to discriminate between a want that it is better to wait to satisfy until you are fully prepared to deal with it, and an actual need that you should satisfy. But, we in America especially, have an "I want it all right now and I don't want to wait," kind of mentality. I have been guilty of this so much in so many areas of my life. I am about to be 32, and only in the last few years have learned the hard way that it is not always wise to have everything you want. Being healthy and having balance is more desirable than being over-indulged. I wish my parents had at least vaguely glossed over the consequences of certain behaviors and the long-term impacts of certain decisions, but I "made my own decisions" not sure how wise that was on their part LOL. And am now recovering from the catastrophes that my behavior brought about in my life. There are healthy risks and forays into personal decision-making that are appropriate for every age group (dressing yourself when you're three, what to read when you're eleven, what to eat maybe you decide for yourself when you're six or so, driving when you're sixteen, you know what I mean) and there are decisions that just should not be made until someone is old enough to use wisdom over desire for pleasure. This is more likely, although not guaranteed of course, to happen when someone has learned to wait for the "right time" to do something, than just doing it because they feel an itch to do it. They stand more of a chance of learning this and putting it into practice in their life on some level, if taught it in the home rather than if they weren't. Sometimes denying yourself for a moment gives you a little perspective and practice at using ^good judgement^.

I agree with the gist of your post , parental guidance ( many 13 14 year olds are raising themselves well their peers are) and communication and education is imperative....we are very open about discussing sexuality in our home , I'm raising boys , but as a gilr I was raised with the same philosphy and it was no question that maturity played a huge factor and self esteem and the ability to decide for oneself what one was ready for and an adult to discuss it with, and wehn i was ready ti was celebrated, and safe etc... if parents had a better communication system and were comfortable with their own sexuality this can be a wonderous time and should be.....truthfully if a child is taught to value themselves to have a esteem of self thats about most of it...i cringe at the things parents use to prevent their kids from having sex..even to making them ashamed of their own bodys ..this goes on alot....words such as pure and impure the implicatons of this is risky and not educating them is another way parents think they are protecting their kids big mistake.....kids will learn from their freinds and this is where the problems begin the things i saw as a teenager unbeleivable the virigin mentalitys the worst kids hands down, parents can be so ignorant........ ....

Yeah, I can see how some might consider it damaging to use terms like pure and impure. But that's just semantics. I do use these terms and concepts with my daughter (10) and the connotation is that once she gives herself away, she can't get it back. She knows I would never think SHE is bad, anymore than I would suddenly hate her or not value her if she stole something or lied to me, however I do impress upon her that that is a life-altering thing, and it will be beautiful and rewarding when she can enjoy it freely with her husband with no worries in the back of her mind ("Will he still talk to me after this? Will he still care for me now that I gave him this? Will I get what I need from him, care and respect? Would I have been happier if I had waited? Will I get pregnant? Will I get AIDS or herpes?" etc...)
As long as she's a minor and not married, it is not a question, she is expected to remain a virgin. Now when she is no longer a child, lives on her own and not married, she of course makes her own decisions, but they will be informed decisions. She understands that AIDS doesn't wash off. My son also, of course. I don't have this coversation with him so much yet because he's eight and only cares about Power Rangers, but when his understanding is there (and I start them understanding young because nothing is as attractive as something forbidden AND misunderstood, your possible opinion of what I teach my kids notwithstanding, I promise you they are not ignorant) but all of this applies to him as well. As long as I am resposible for their health and well-being, I make this decision for them. This is not to say that they don't understand the reasons why. In fact, I believe it is my leadership in making this decision (celibacy) for myself because I am not married, that will give them the strength and the wisdom to see that this is the best choice they could make for themselves once out there on their own.
I think when it comes time to hand responsibility for themselves over to them COMPLETELY, it will be at the tail end of a process that began when their question began, and ended in them seeing and experiencing firsthand the health benefits of what God has prescribed for us. I am talking about a years-long process of seeing it put into action, and taking that with them into the world, a transformation of just something Mom always said, to slowly, and in stages, an acual understanding of it and peace in it that they will undertand and desire for themselves. Will they screw up? Possibly. They know I won't stop loving them for it. But I do cosider it my responsiblity to teach them the best choices. I think it is more empowering to teach them to respect themselves and see the value in themselves, and also an excellent example in doing what is good for them, and thinking for themselves, not just doing what everyone else does, or seeing how long they can get away with certain things in their lives without tremendous unneccesary heartache.

regardless of the appraoch we use as guide, which in th end is what we deem best as it should be ... it is clear that you care very deeply for your children, as i said I'm not raising girls , but if i was i'd employ the guidance i recieved and I think every person is unique in their sexuality i did not feel ready for a sexual relationship until later, later than all my GF's and i chose a mature gentleman by my choice, i was raised by my grandparents so they had worked out all their quirks by the time they guided me , its sort of bizzare being raised knowing its okay to celebrate your sexuality ... so many of my freinds had stunted crippling modles and good grief teens can get so lost.... i was reared to honor my truth to explore it and discuss it with adults makes all of differnce , thats what came out of it for me....i never ever felt concerned about being taken advantaqge of or in regret, or used or any of that but i was raised to celebrate myself as a confident beautiful being.... , i was clear that for me, decided by me that I'd want profound sexual exchanges , ... I actaully have intimidated a few men in my life not meaning to but i felt myself a sexual equal as i reached maturity its surprising how uptight some men are or i was jsut raised kooky..anyways Texas it sounds as if you have put alot of thought into this and your heart is in the right place.....I do discuss sexuality with my 9 year old but he's not the average 9 year old, he asks questions we answer them honestly....

Well, we differ in faiths of course, but I think overlap in a few key places here, like recognizing the importance of maturity in this matter, and deciding for yourself rather than being swayed by what all the little friends are doing.

Of coure, I didn't realize how freak-ay you were....

*Tone-Loc "Wild Thing" is playing loudly in the background at Sheri's house* can ya turn that down a little?!


I'm joking.... I haven't talked to you for a while I gotta give you a hard time about something..... and I did let that blonde thing go on the Mormom thread a while back, so must take advantage of this one

texas you can tease me i'll laugh with you, yes on the main points we seem to unite ... oh my can it be we are getting along lol, Just kidding i loves ya texas...

Wha....? The end is near! It is one of the signs the apocalypse is closing in, when you and I agree, isn't it Sheri? Yes.......it was foretold.......

*Guffaws, slaps knee*

^such a dumb joke. It's late in Texas time for Heather to go off to bed^


Nite.

Thanks for the links, Sheri. Usually we like to hear some of your thoughts in the opening post, give us your opinion on the article (though I can probably guess your stance anyway, lol). It gives us members something to respond to and think about beyond the content of the articles.

That aside, I have never heard of "purity proms" (or purity rings, for that matter). It seems a little strange. Personally, I find it a little creepy that girls are pledging their virginity to their father's (disturbing visuals here). I'm also interested to know why it seems only women are taken to these purity proms. What about the males? Is there something there for them?

Overall, I'd say purity proms are unrealistic. Many children will do this simply because their family tells them to. How many of them will actually mean what they say and carry out their vow to wait? Even many people who claim to be christians fall into the temptation of pre-marital sex. There's no easy answer to this, but humans are humans, and we are imperfect, and even those of us who do pledge to save ourselves for marriage may fall into temptation.

So in answer to your question (quoted above), this seems to be the work of only a small cross-section of the Christian community - I'd say Chrsitianity has not gone too far, though it perhaps some individual's have.

What is it about premarital sex that's so irresistible?

While I find these purity proms rather disturbing I do not find abstinence till marriage disturbing or as one poster replied on there 'virginity is just another word for lack of experience' and that 'they probably wont even know what a clitoris is'.

I am still a virgin and intend to stay that way until marriage. Was I forced into it? No, it's a personal choice. Yes my mother did advise me to do so and gave me the pros and cons of it including the fact that she wished she had have waited til marriage but being that she was an orphan at the age of 7 and lived with a horror of an aunt who threw her out on the streets that didn't happen. She had two abortions and regrets it everday. The pros of virginity is that there is no unwanted pregnancies, no STDs or AIDs and there's a personal repsect factor for your own body, and the fact that when a relationship ends you haven't 'lost' anything andthere are other factors too. As for the last comment mentioned in the above paragraph I have a good understanding of both the male and female anatomy and my mother speaks very openly about sex. My mother also advised my brother the same way and he of his own choice (she always gave us a choice) stayed a virgin until last year when he threw it away on an asian prostitute. Did he think it was worth it? No. If I want to see what sex is like I can watch pornography. For God's sake it's not the end of the world.

Did my decision have anything to do with my religious beliefs? NO. Because there is not a single passage which shows it's something you HAVE to do.

ha ha ha ha PA I'm fairly transparent on my thoughts on this LOL...i watched the news show and it is a attempt to protect the girls from the 'predator' males, one father said' i know this type of boy"...IMO this is how alot of parents teach of sexuality... they terrorize the children into 'purity'....bottom line is the bible says one must abstaine until marrige , its the parents that come up with the ways to attempt this that really don't work...the problem is the way....As was noted 90% can't live up to these vows....

whose bible are you speaking of? the n.t.? it is not in the hebrew scriptures. according to jewish law a betrothed couple is understood to be destined to marry. this is why Mary was not stoned when she got pregnant, because she and joe were betrothed, and it was perfectly acceptable, then and now. Oh, I forgot, none of you even read the "old testament", or know anything about Jewish law. my bag.

thats why youare here gid LOL...

thanks, i guess..........

your welcome, there is no doubt in my mind you are a bible master...

I think it is sad on so many fronts. It is extremely sexist as it doesn't address what the boys are doing. It implies that women are owned by their father until they have a husband who then takes over ownership. Looks like they are turning back the clock on women's rights.

This is right up there with Communism. Good in theory, not really practical and grates against human nature.

I think the idea of "purity balls" is a bit absurd, but it's probably a result of the overwhelming "sexualization" (I think I made this word up!) of the modern world.

To the poster relating her own 10 year old self to this purity business: I wish all 10 year olds still felt the way you did when you were that age. Unfortunately, in todays society there are 10 year olds that are ready and willing to enter the sexual world of the adult. It's sad, but true.

Has Christianity gone too far? Debatable I guess. Compare it to what you see on MTV or see at your local high school, and it's easy to see what they are attempting to do.

Has society gone to far? Undoubtedly.

ashley their are ways to guide a person sexually that doesn't involve scaring them or leaving issues for a person about sex, many parents in an attempt to protect the child and prevent them from making the mistakes they did use fear to do this..i'm saying its not nessecary nor functional...we are sexual human beings its not a curse its a gift and when its tauhgt that it is a nataurl aspect of the human experince one natuarlly places value on themselves.......to what peril are we harming one when we scare them about sex ??and how does one teach of something they themselves aren't comfortable with.....i mean no disresepct to you but you can choose to be in a sexual realitionship that is quality because its who you have decided you are, its really okay.....often we learn alot about who we are by who we arent' under the circumstances your brother was very brave to decide who he is ,it seems your mom had a tough way to go alot of times in those days it was simply lack of education and few talked about sex...

I have to say that this is pretty disturbing.

I thought we had moved on from the days when the father owned their children.

I certainly agree with controlling your sexuality until you are ready to experiment but that doesn't necessarily mean until marriage.

All people mature at different rates and as such it is a very personal decision. I don't think signing a contract with your father at the age of 10 is a way to do anything other then get the idea into the kids heads earlier then necessary.

And what happens if the Contract is broken? Is the child disowned, is the offending party maltreated by the parents.

This has huge range to be misused by parents I think. And what happens when they get married is the contract "passed on" to the husband?


Ridiculous in my opinion. A piece of paper is not going to make a difference. Self-control comes from within. Not from a piece of paper.

There is a saying that sometimes you do not know if you are hungry until food is placed in front of you. This is true with our kids, they are stimmulated by the bombarment of sexual material early on in all forms of media. Even the dances are sexual. What the hell kind of dance is it when a teenage girl grinds her backside on the groin of her dance partner? My kid would not sit for a month if I caught her doing that disgusting act. The boyfriend would be soaking his stuff in ice for a week as well. Teen STD's are at the highest level ever. I wonder why? Parents are not parents anymore, but want to be their friends and let them do what they want. TOUGH SH**T! Oh, what nice parents are they that let the kids do or have anything they want and then SURPRIZE little sweet suzy is gonna be a Momma at 17. OOOPS! Sorry I just do not know how it happened, so now what? An abortion? Have the parents raise the kid, I thought they did that already?

Tell it, Moondoggy!

As has been said in other threads about atheists who backlash a little too strongly when they perceive they have been offended by Christianity, this may be a case of it working both ways. Apparently some of the Christians involved in this movement felt led to take an extreme action in a world where popular culture is taking extreme action to seduce children. I ^still^ feel the particular actions taken to signify this are weird and counter-productive, though. The method is wrong, but their intentions are good (most of them anyway, a portion of these dads may be perverts in sheep's clothing putting on a good act and getting some kind of sick thrill).

gosh dark you do bring in a pov that is barbaric.....i ccan't even wrap my brain around the dysfunctionl sexual ideas that religon has come up with ..

I don't think there's anything dysfunctional in saving oneself for marriage, Sheri

Also if one chose to not be married and share their beautiful sexual self would that be okay too????

This is really sad. Father's owning their daughters? yeesh
I am really amazed at your story of growing up Sheri. I had the exact opposite message about sex and I couldn't even really talk to boys/men except for my brothers and dad because I was told all boys and men were evil! Good thing my hubby came along when I was 21 and I managed to talk to him. I know that sounds extreme, and it is really sad but true! I can't believe the warped views of sex we develop growing up! I'm happy to say that I am now free of those ridiculous ideas about being evil, men being evil, and being less than men. And I don't think there is anything wrong with a healthy sexual relationship between two people who love one another who choose not to get a fancy paper that says they're married!

This is creepy in a way. There is nothing wrong with being a virgin or waiting until you are married, but there are pros and cons to it. A lot of couples are unhappy because of sexual incompatability and that can spout even more problems. I know some may say that if you are waiting then the sex doesn't matter much then, well thats just not true for everyone. I'm fine with whatever someone chooses, as long as they are safe and know the consequences of their actions. I personally can't imagine myself having sex with more than one person during my lifetime but it's a very personal choice that I can't make for anyone else. Even that does not mean waiting until marriage. I see a lot of couples that are "waiting" by doing the "everything but" deal. I also have a friend who I can only assume is waiting-she barely knows anything about sex. Imagine giving a 21 year old woman "the talk" and explaining what birthcontrol is.

I know so many that went through what you did uhma, you are very fortunate to have gotten past it so many don't....i can't tell you how blessed i feel for lack of a better word for having the guides i did, i not only have a healthy attitude about my sexuality i have a way t pass it on, this society is so repressed sexually.... someone on here said its not important to be sexually compatible i disagree as would many many females now adays to some its as important as being compatible as people...gone are the days that a female has no input to the nature of the experince...LOL

Ok, I wasn't 'scared out of sex' by my Mother, I probably know more about sex than the people who are doing it do. I don't think my brother was 'brave' he was just horny, got sick of masterbating, had the money on him and decided to try out a pro. It wasn't a pleasant experience, but I wont go into my brother's sexual experiences on a message board.

It's early, maybe I am sleepy still...what's barbaric about darks statement?

Having a healthy sex attitude is so important. There is enough stress involved in sex. It just gets enhanced when no one wants to talk about their problems or if the couple is not sexually compatible. This is why I said that waiting until after you are married is not always the smartest thing. It has it's cons as well. It's someone personal choice though and I wouldn't try to change someones mind. If I ever have kids I can only hope that they listen to me and be patient and wait for the right person. It seems people are in a hurry to lose their virginity these days like it's some sort of big race.

Kinda reminds me of that part in Memoirs of a Geisha. Are these dads going to put their daughter's virginity on e-bay to try to raise the best dowry from potential suitors?

I say this is total crap and if it becomes even more prevalent, a huge step backwards in the realm of women's rights (hells, maybe even basic human rights).

Education is the key, not repression.

I'm guessing the role of the parent in this contract is nothing, so Lil Suzie Contract may still give up the sakura to the first guy who spits a good game on her. (Suzie I love you. Of course I'll marry you, but it will have to wait until after graduation. Until then this is all we have to prove our love and if you love me as much as I love you, then why are you holding back for some stupid piece of paper. Love is beyond all those trappings. What's that? No we don't need a condom, I have great reflexes and control.)

good point rev r zend I cant decide whats worse .....whats worse the parents that sexualize the girl to watch out for the predator male lurking in every shadow that is jsut after her for one thing whole mentatlity or purity proms, good grief can the homo sapiens ruin a good thing anymore can they come up wth any more hair ball ideas????? Repression leads to the problems not away from them....

it wasnt an insult to Dark in any way, it was good point yes you are tired...

I'm honestly not picking on anyone...was barbaric a mis-speak? Or did I miss an edited post? Honestly just wondering.

I think this is classic making a big deal out of something that's not as weird as you think it may be. Though I will admit, I'd not likely be involved in a purity ball...just sounds ookie!

he meaning dark said something about taking two steps back towwards the dark ages, i said i agree its barbaric, purity proms....no problem, its better to ask esepcially on here..LOL..

Okay Sheri
this is an ACTUAL reply:
I dont think it is wrong to encourage chastity or monogamy in todays HIV/STD world, and based on the moral mindset of todays youth "girls gone wild" is a consequence of some of this...and also ....sex without love seems empty..
....imho....B




could use a sammich tho!

News release: Pope authorizes the latest to promote Catholocism and attract a younger crowd. NUNS GONE WILD!!!

This is like D.A.R.E. for sex. And that did nothing much for the war on drugs.

Growing up, my Mom never talked to my sisters and I about sex at all. We were intelligent people and learned about it on our own. What she did do is raise us right, meaning we developed a healthy sense of self-worth. None of us ever felt the need to do anything we didn't want to do just to fit in or be accepted. We already accepted ourselves.

I think young sex is often a lot more about trying to fit in or make a friend (find 'love' from that cute guy) than it is about sex.

I, personally, do not think ANYTHING should be stigmatized for children. Focus on teaching your children how to think for themselves and understand their motivations, and the consequences, for the choices they make.

barek, sex education does wonders, girls gone wild is often the mindset that comes out of feared based monogomy and chastity and purity proms, Barek a person that is raised to celebration they are in part sexual beings that it is beautiful rarely have 'empty sex, i see nothning wrong with wanting a qualtiy sexaul relationship , its the ways that are attempting to do this that i have issue with, one can never value something that they are taught to be ashamed of, or made to feel they are an object are made to repress and deny a hge part of themselves...etc.... this is not a advocacy for orgys Barek....

I see, sorry if I seemed obtuse. I can see where the barbaric statement fits. It's a shame when folks do something like this in the name of religion. they should just admit its' based on fear and concern for their children, and a sense of being out of control, rather than couching it in Christianity. It just makes it seem creepy as hell.

excellent point !!!!

Wow...I'm shocked you see the logic, but pleased too.
I think the same can be said for much of what MODERN Christians do, as well as other religions. I won't defend the actions of whack-jobs or what I see happen to people in the name of Islam, or historical wrongs perpetrated by Atheists or Christians. But I will say that REAL Christians who "get" the message, and real Muslims who "get" Muhammad, would not condone that which harms innocents. That's my real point I guess. *steps off the soap-box*