surely if you beleived you would hold this answer

would the answer to this question fall upon death ears?(eyes in this case)

You believe you KNOW...thats how I at least see it

The more I contemplated the question, the more circles my mind began to wander in until finally reaching the conclusion that the existence of "God" is irrelavant.

Agree in the main.

We have to develop ourselves, both as individuals and as a species, and for this we might find it useful to have some ideal towards which to drive. However worshipping and trying to grant this model a reasoning capability and some worldly potency is counter-productive. It inhibits the individual from recognising that this is only a model (Camelot!), the characteristics of which will change as we develop.

Hold the answer? Hold up? Hold out? Hold on? I'm seriously not getting what you mean...
I don't know if there's a god or not, but do understand that I'm in the minority when it comes to religion/faith. It's my belief that if god does exist s/he must be egocentric... Any god who demands praise and servitude is not in my purview.

Death ears?eyes? I'm experiencing a communication breakdown. I don't get what you're saying...again... And, it would appear, we both speak the same language...

Thank you. That sums it up nicely...

Not if you're trying to stand before the gates of heaven... or anticipating heavenly rewards for you obeisance. ; )

If you did some homework, you'd know that sentence is completely wasted on me.

There is no God.

I don't do homework. I'd already figured you weren't that kind of poster... ; )

Wonderful evidence! This proof is undeniable!
But if you believe there is no God, why did you use a capital G?

LMAO dont be ridiculous LOL a cap G ...so what..that says nothing other than they have seen the word god always typed with a cap G...dont mean they must believe in God


Anyone that says - there is no God...is no different from those of us that says there is a God...we all just believe

I've been working a little harder on the idea of Right Speech lately.

I have a counterpart in here.
I wrote that too, long time ago. (30 years)

you would be more accurate to rephrase that last part as "we all just make-believe".

NO HYPER I wont...what you are doing is telling me I should think like you and post things just as Hyper see's it - make believe...you are being ignorant hyper towards others that do believe

Fact is Hyper - we that follow God DO BELIEVE...not make believe...NO just BELIEVE now if you cant get over it...tough...

Now if you are wise, why dont you rephrase your line to - No BM SOME just make believe IMO <--key words in your opinion hyper...get it right boy!!


Respect what others believe...accept it even...not in your case I dont think so...

Ohh and one more thing...to say - make believe - is how one describes a fairy tail...so dont try and come in with your usual sugar coating comments lol like No BM what I mean is ..... enough!!

don't blow a gasket there bm

think of gods or not, in either case it is still make-believe.

to quote lennin "a lie told often enough becomes the truth".

a true believer in anything, (yes anything - this is not an attack on believers in deities of any kind), is still just playing make-believe. the difference is that they have forgotten they are playing a game, and take it to be real.

IT IS ALL A FAIRY TALE. no sugar coating necessary.

So what if someone thinks your beliefs are make believe. What's the big deal. You think that Zeus is real? Everyone has a bit of skepticism about other people's beliefs. People mock the idea of 72 virgins all the time.

I think a lot of people's beliefs are made up but its their right. Who says you can't believe what you want when you are basing it on faith??? Its your personal choice and your preference.

Some people love Harry Potter and deep down inside they kinda feel like he is real. Or Trekki fans or Star Wars fans.

Whatever motivates someone on a creative level is a special thing, be that God, or Movies, art or writing or even Music.

Some music is quite inspiring and people would call them Rock Gods or I had an atheist friend who said Tori Amos is God and she totally worshipped her as her number one fan.

The problem in religion doesn't come from people "believing' but in people getting angry and violent when someone else doesn't accept their religious belief. Like for example the Jihad warriors.

Its fine and good to want your freedom of religion or spiritual belief as long as you reciprocate with the same sense of not taking it so seriously when its between groups that don't share the same views.

No way is right or wrong. Its personal. And people have the right to not believe what you do whether it is Allah, or God or Harry Potter or fairies.

Hyper Yes to YOU its a fairy Tale...I know this..

But when you tell me that doesnt see it as a fairy tale....to rephrase my quote from we believe to we make believe...you dont realize that you are in fact telling me to see it only how you like to


If you see its as a jack o nory tale..fine...I dont come in after you telling you to rephrase your thoughts do I??

I for one can tell the difference between a fairy tale and what I believe in exists

the point is bm,

you said whether one believes in a god or does not believe in a god, "we all believe".

I changed the message to if one believes in a god or one does not believe in a god, "we all make-believe".

The statement includes everybody, so I see no reason for you to take it as an attack on those that believe there to be gods.

Think of it this way. You have your beliefs in a god creating the universe. Another has a belief in the big-bang, lets say. If you are both using your respective "tales" to explain "how we got here", you are both playing make-believe, as both are a "fiction" which fills a role to each of you (the same role).

My point was, we should remember we, as humans, are making this stuff up, no matter what the story is. The most ardent theist and the most ardent atheist are both taking their origins stories as fact, when they are just stories. "So lost in the game, was I, that I forgot it was a game at all"

Maybe you should have just asked me what I meant by that hyper

When I said it doesnt matter if we believe or not ...fact is we ALL believe...meaning there are those of us that do believe in God or A God...and those of us that believe there is no such thing as God

thats what I meant Hyper...you believe there is no God right?? therefore you are a believer in the non existance of God

Now does that makes it a lil clearer to what I was saying??


If so..good..and hopefully you will just ask me next time

me, personally,

no, i don't believe in non-existance.

so no, i don't believe there is not a god (nor do i believe there is a god or gods). I have no deification processes. I actually do not believe in anything (accept for one exception, made only out of providing a basis given the impossibility of determining factually its validity. If this sounds like a paradox next to what follows it is only because of the linear form of expression in play).

In the looser usage of the term "believe", you can say i believe (accept/understand) that you believe there is a god.

But I see all beliefs as fiction mistaken for fact.

\

Wow that's a great turn of phrase. It seems like a lot of God believers want to equivocate not believing in God as some sort of other religion. And its gotten into a tangle of word games. But that right there is a perfect phrase.

I have no deification processes as well. Whatever anyone has come up with as an explanation of their God I agree it is make believe and also big bang. Such a great post before as well.

My truth is "we don't know" and in that "don't know' I have no deification processes. There is nothing to "worship or believe in"

I have no problem with anyone believing what they want. So what. But when people get nasty and outraged because you dared not believe I think it starts down the path of violence and anger, and then its just something all together different.

this gets even better ..watch...

Hyper you do believe there is no God right?




ummm okaayy so....a bit of double negative here eh?? in otherwards you BELIEVE in existance huh??

but wait...



]Make your mind up...why the double negative then?? So the two negatives cancel eachother out then Hyper LOL (those two negatives are incase you are wondering ---Dont & NOT) <--you have used both!!!!!!

Its called contradicting hyper thats what you have done..and I like this next bit






Its called a BELIEF hyper...and any smart man will tell you, there is no proof he exists and no proof he doesnt exist

Belief is personal feeling, it cannot be quantified by evidence...you should know this by now hyper

The fact still remains...you believe that all religions are fiction you said so lol

so that (pushing your ego aside) makes you a believer LOL

So if you believe your own belief is a fiction, why are you trying to explain to others what it is and explain to them what it is you think they believe?

I would argue for the existence of a creator\god on the basis of what I see in the world. All of us can see the things we have made, be it automobiles or i-pods, none of us would say i-pod fairies make i-pods or that automobiles form out of an attraction of plastics and steel but rather are the result of principles and multiple processes that we harness to produce actual creations. How much time and effort spent to get at our present stage of tech-wonders. And yet how our most complex machines pales in comparision to the machinery of life? What time and effort to make a bug? a bird? a tree? Are we to credit ourselves for the making of our crude tincups while denying that the fine cyrstal even has a creator? I think the real question has always been as to the nature of the creator\god and that is where we all disagree. Just as I can accept that something greater than myself is required to produce an auto, I can easily accept that something I don`t understand is behind all of life. I don`t care how many monkeys type on how many keyboards for how long, I believe they will never write any coherent concept, let alone the works of shakespeare! To deny that a creator exists seems illogical when I know everything we create came about from our thoughts, that our thoughts came before the creations, that it is the thoughts of all creatures that make anything happen at all, how can it be that that the very existence of something came before the thought?

Thats what I think.

Yes there's a God, because I believe and have faith. Faith and belief is where God lives. If you have no faith or belief, he doesn't exist.

Debating the existence of anything uncomprehendingly beyond our ability is pointless.

Did you read the comment on a paradox, bm? Anyway, not believing in the opposite of X does not mean believing in X.

I "believe" you are a believer. this is not the same as being "a believer".

To clarify it for you, everything is relative. What you may see as a god, the next may not. So you have two people, one calling Z a god. So is it a god or not? Universally, it is neither.



I am not trying to explain "my beliefs". I am offering opportunities to take a new look at your "beliefs".

What is a believer hyper??

IMO a believer is someone that believes in something...

Believer does not state it has to be religious...lol noo if you think along those lines hyper (i said if) then you are looking at things one sided

When I say a believer it can mean anything..ie someone who believes in ghosts...aliens...the toothfairy ect..but a lot of atheists tend to peg it as religious and stick a religious tag on it

You hyper ARE a believer (imo) you believe there is NO god...that still tells me you are an atheist or similar to an atheist....see what im saying??

Atheisism is NOT a religion...far from it...even I know that...but thats how a lot tend to think they are being pegged as religious, just because of a few religious folks that like to do this...but if you are smart, you will know its nonsense

You believe in a lot of things hyper..one of those thing is - yourself...again makes you a believer

And on that note - I believe you will still try and correct me LOL

i have 2 things to say, 1. i have no clue as to what will happen when we die, or if there is some almighty force out there, 2. it is human nature to find answers to impossible questions, like what happens if u go back in time and kill your grandfather before he has a child?

what made you conclude "I" believe in "myself", bm?

as to gods.... you missed the meaning of what I said. When I say I "believe" you believe, I mean that indeed, in your head gods exist, and at the same time in the next head no gods exist. So you could say I "beleive", again using a loose term of the word, that gods exist and do not exist simultaniously millions of times over. The catch is that NONE of it is REAL.

Is our whirlwind romance to spill over to another topic, darling?

I make no assumption that anyone who doesn't believe in God will always spell the word 'god' using a lowercase 'g'. I do, however, refer to the conscious effort one has to make to spell out the word 'God', rather than the word 'god'. The difference? As you know, 'God' refers to the title believers give to their deity, while 'god' identifies a being possessing supernatural qualities. To make the conscious effort would imply that someone using 'God' would, at one time or another, be better associated with the ideal. Maybe I just read too deeply into what GL said, forgive me my studies of the human psyche, but I tend to look at some details closely. Consciousness is what makes us who we are.

as individuals, we all have our own opinions, ill let u say what u want, but i dont believe in him really, i need evidence, not guilty untill proven otherwise is what i say. but why do u guys believe in him?¿?¿?¿

Ok, as a sometimes press release writer, I get to put this one to rest based on the rules of the English language, not religion. According to the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition (which you can read online if you care to pay for the service--it's the public writers Bible for people like journalists, publicists etc...) the word "God" is to be capitalized because it is a proper noun. This would also include names like Allah, El Asarte, Dagon, Zeus etc...

While the Bible frequently capitalizes pronouns, the current style is that pronouns like Him and His are not to be capitalized. For example:

God in his (or her) mercy.
Jesus and his disciples
Allah in his mercy

etc...

Revered persons:

such as the Baptist, the Blessed Virgin, Buddha, Christ child, etc... are typically capitalized but do not have to be, they should be used consistently whether capitalized or not.

There are a lot more rules about the usage of religious names, practices etc.. (4 pages worth) but that should clear up whether the word "God" should be capitalized. In proper English, it should be because it's a proper noun.

Cheers!

If nothing truly was real, hyper, then why would you make such statements? You make it apparent to everyone that you do believe what you espouse, thus you believe in yourself.

I must admit I do not understand those who believe nothing is real but then adamantly insist to others that this is so.

So what are you saying Hyper?? you got low self esteem? You have no confidence in yourself?? LMAO thats sad and the sad thing is you BELIEVE I will suck this in lol...wow a believer

Why must you always place the word believe in the same cat as God?? WHY?? LMAO gimme a break hyper...to believe in ________ <---anything is natural....to heck with the loose term of the word I couldnt care....all im saying is you are a believer to all that you believe in....just because you don't believe in god or religion that doesnt cancel out the fact over all you are a believer

Here's the thing - The word Believer is NOT a religious word LOL.....seriously!!!

You love to flatter yourself...lol If ya must

Spelling god with a Cap G doesnt say anything...this is why a lot of atheists are defencive to people like yourself...always trying to make them look as though they too are religious...hence the usual threads that read - Atheisim is a relgion blah blah...when they are only making fools out of themselves lol...its far from being a religion...just like anyone that trypes the word God with a cap G...that dont say diddly....it really says this --- I want to make you believe in God or look as though you do...so you MUST believe in him...cuz i said so LOL....gimme a break


I myself believe in God...but i dont try and convince others they do or convince them that they must follow God...its their lives their choices...live and let live...not saying you actually try and convert...i dunno if you do or not..but you did try and tell a non believer they must believe in god all because they typed his name using a cap G...you have no idea how silly that sounds

An example ....

Hyper - I believe that there is no way of proving there is a God

BM - "WOW so you ARE religious..you do think there is a God...I knew it ha ha"

Hyper - "No BM I am not religgious I dont believe in fairy tales"

BM - "AHA but...you are...cuz you typed the word God using a cap G....& you said you believe..so ner ner"

Look silly??? YEP sure does....cuz in that lil example it clearly shows I didnt give a toss for who he is...I only cared about my ego & beliefs and tried to tease him by saying he is one like me...thinking in some weird way I am insulting him...ironic eh??
Only a dim wit would turn a blind eye to someones values and who they are as a person.....ignorance??? uhhuh

So if an atheist types the word God using a cap G...prolly cuz every time you see the word God its always 9/10 typed with a cap G...that dont mean the author must be a follower of God LOL...it dont mean a thing
A person has to tell you he/she is religious...there's no shame in it

So If an atheist types the word God using CAP G...I will STILL see them as an........Atheist...cuz lets face it using the cap G...doesnt mean they all of a sudden must be a secret admirer of God LOL...they are and may always will be Atheists...through and through

And I respect an atheists values and whatthey do believe is not real...its understandable..it actually makes sense to me...they have their reasons...and those reason 9/10 do in fact IMO add up........this is WHY i cant tell an atheist he has to be wrong and he will go to hell...how the heck do I know LOL??

do i? I accept what is as what is, in so far as perception allows while remembering that perceptions can decieve and the brain actively creates on its own. This is where the "nothing is real" comes into play. We do not perceive the world accurately. We perceive it in an altered manner that originates in survival purposes. Stories are abstractions/models (making them inaccurate) of inaccurate source material.

Did you think I am adamantly insisting on something? Then my apologies to you. Whatever course you persue, if it gives you the comfort you need, then be comforted.



No bm. Perhaps I can just not explain it to you what not beleiving in myself means.

I don't place the word believe in the same category as religious beliefs. I do not extend what I will call a certianty priniciple. How much do you take for granted? How much do you "accept or expect" to find a future consistancy in (with 100% likelihood?) If you can question this, and find the disparity between what you accept or expect to have a certian consistancy and even the statistical likelihood of that consistancy then you will begin to understand where I am coming from.

I do seem to have a particularily hard time explaining these concepts to you, and for that I apologize. Take comfort in whatever it is that comforts you.

Good question TT. Hmmm ... Well, I see no proof for a god. That said, how can all of this come from nothing? Of course, that begs the question ... If god does exist, how could IT come from nothing? Mustn't everything have a creator? Argh! I think I'll go with ... Proving or disproving the existence of god is simply not possible--at least until we die.

Sean

And on that note, I too have a hard time trying to help you understand where I am coming from....


But saying that hyper...how you see the word believe...is up to you...I was just trying to tell you that people will class it as a word that links to religion or the paranormal...its not thats all I was trying to say....hope you understand too... I think you do though

And I do believe you do believe in yourself...you believe you can go far..and have done well maybe...but you have that right

Personally, I see God as some sort of energy that holds the universe together. Also, I'd like to bring up free will. A human can kill him or herself if they want to - personally, I don't see how something like the human body would be able to have such a "malfunction" (can't think of a better word to use) without a greater influence like God, which lets us choose what we freely want to.

...and so we must part, dear, for the tides of the heart have swept you away.

Have I EVER spoken down to ANYONE in this forum? Have I ever degraded or intentionally insulted anyone's relgious, or personal, values? I pointed out that GL used a capital G when spelling god, not as an insinuation that she must believe, but to better understand what she believes. I could give a sh** less who believes, who doesn't and what the outcome of such faith will harvest. I'm not interested in saving a soul, increasing attendance in a church or converting the unfaithful. I'm interested in ideas. I'm interested in being a good person. Most importantly, I'm interested in trying to show people, religious or not, that there is a better way. Worry about the afterlife all you want, that's your choice, but worry first about the life you're living now. Live your life the best you can, for it may be the only one you're given.

I got what you meant dev, its an irony.


I find many times in the midst of a debate as an atheist I have to be careful not say "he" or "God" as opposed to god. And I think that this brings up an interesting reality for atheists.


It also might explain why atheists have a hard time explaining their lack of believe in "God"


To some, God is this forever and ever concept and so when I say "I don't believe in God" a lot of people who don't understand take that to mean

"I don't believe that God exists"

Its very very hard to get someone who has a preconceived notion of God to understand that to an atheist, a God in the future might defy the explanation as we know God now.

But this future God might have qualities that we attribute to this God concept.


For example if in the future it turns out that there is a living entity like a enormous cosmic ameoba that floats through the universe and is living and this creature "creates" new life or gives birth to life by passing over something not alive.


Would this be "God" would this, if proven be something that I as an atheist could believe in? This "creation theory"

Well yes of course. Would I believe in this God? Yes

Would I worship this God? I don't know, I doubt it. I might be fascinated by it though.


The word God is something that means different things to different people and its important to keep in mind that not everyone sees "God" the same way.


I think you were trying to point this out. Don't sweat it, I'm sure most people caught on to it.

You thought correctly. Thanks for being open-minded!

this is very simplafid ,the law of the natrul world is of ether +or -,left or right positive or negative, male or female .

you can't have the one with out these two forces ,now look at your self it took your mother and your father to bring you into being.

your mother gave birth to you and gives you your earthly wants,and your father is the one that inspirers to dream and climb that mts to see whats at the

top.

Come again??

Is this your way of explaining there is a God??

Just wondering

There is also a difference between 'God' and 'god'(like Moon and moon). 'God' is more or less the christian/jewish deity and a 'god' is any deity of any religion. So when you say "I don't believe in God." it doesn't necessarily make you an atheist. Its awfully confusing considering a lot of people don't use capitalizations on the internet and you can't capitalize spoken words.

There's no need to apologise, hyper. I wasn't suggesting you were slighting anyone or had any intent to do so.

I am aware of your strength of conviction regarding your belief and was merely commenting how you make this apparent when you make statements such as:



I agree with you on many things; that we are deceived by our perception of things being one. It's just the way you phrase things (probably due to the strength of belief you have) implies that others are incorrect in their beliefs. Of course we all believe ourselves to be correct in our convictions and to insert 'In my belief' or 'In my opinion' into every post we make is asking a bit much. Also, when two people of firm conviction debate there is bound to be some element of "I'm right, you're wrong" in the discussion.

It was simply puzzling to me how one's belief that nothing was real (the deceit of perception) could lead them to espouse this belief to others, as it is their perception that deceives them into believing what they think others believe. I would add you are not alone in puzzling me in this way. I have asked others about this and received varying responses, I wanted to see what your response was to this conundrum.