I'm reading it exactly as it's said. And like I said before early Christians and Judaism believed in reincarnation.

Yes you can say it, but it isn't necessarily true is it?

Can you provide further scriptural or historical proof for your allegations?

What about the sites that you got this info from (if you did), can you provide their links so we can see on what you base these beliefs, other than taking a verse completely out its meaningful context?

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_xtian_believe_reinc.asp

Enjoy

There's also the fact that Adam allowed 30 years of his life to be taken off so as to live longer as his incarnation as DAVID. As is in David, Solomon's father.

Well, I read through the site, especially the The footnotes. Here is what Wikipedia has to say in relation to reincarnation as relating to Judaism and Christianity.

Judaism

While ancient Greek philosophers like Plato and Socrates attempted to prove the existence of reincarnation through philosophical proofs, Jewish mystics who accepted this idea did not. Rather, they offered explanations of why reincarnation would solve otherwise intractable problems of theodicy (how to reconcile the existence of evil with the premise of a good God.)

The idea of reincarnation, called gilgul, became popular in folk belief, and is found in much Yiddish literature among Ashkenazi Jews. Among a few kabbalists, it was posited that some human souls could end up being reincarnated into non-human bodies. These ideas can be found in a number of Kabbalistic works from the 1200s, and also among many mystics in the late 1500s.

Among well known Rabbis who rejected the idea of reincarnation are the Saadia Gaon(סעדיה הג�ון), Hasdai Crescas, Yedayah Bedershi (early 14th century), Joseph Albo, Abraham ibn Daud, the Rosh and Leon de Modena. Saadia Gaon, in Emunoth ve-Deoth, concludes Section vi with a refutation of the doctrine of metempsychosis (reincarnation). While refuting reincarnation, Saadia Gaon states that Jews who hold to reincarnation have adopted non-Jewish beliefs. Crescas writes that if reincarnation was real, people should remember details of their previous lives.

While many Jews today do not believe in reincarnation, the belief is common amongst Orthodox Jews, particularly amongst Hasidim; some Hasidic siddurim (prayerbooks) have a prayer asking for forgiveness for one's sins that one may have committed in this gilgul or a previous one.

Christianity

An illustration of the Rebirth (reincarnation) process, including the postmortem existence in the supraphysical realms (where the so-called dead live), from the perspective of the Christian esoteric teachings (western).Almost all present official Christian denominations reject reincarnation mainly because they consider the theory to challenge a basic tenet of Christianity. Most philosophies associated with the theory of reincarnation focus on "working" or "learning" through various lifetimes to achieve some sort of higher understanding or state of "goodness" before salvation is granted or acquired. Basic to Christianity is the doctrine that humans can never achieve the perfection God requires and the only "way out" is total and complete forgiveness accomplished through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross wherein He took the sins of mankind.

A number of Evangelical and (in the USA) Fundamentalist Christian groups have denounced any belief in reincarnation as heretical, and explained any phenomena suggestive of it as deceptions of the devil. Although the Bible never mentions the word reincarnation, there are several passages through New Testament that Orthodox Christians interpret as openly rejecting reincarnation or the possibility of any return or contact with this world for the souls in Heaven or Hell (see Hb 9:27 and Luke 16:20-31)

While such a belief is held by a minority it is not a majority viewpoint. I personally reject this viewpoint but I can see how you can interpret things the way you do. For me the bible is inerrant, thus one can't divorce scriptural refernces just because they don't agree with your views, as such Hebrews 9:27 is part of the word of God whether you accept it or not.

I simply cannot take Cabbalistic interpretations which are extra biblical especially when cobbled to mystical interpretations of strightforward verses. But if that's your thing, have fun.

Here's a site that maybe you should read before getting all bright eyed about reincarnation in the Bible. Enjoy!!

See: Reincarnation in the Bible

Believe whatever you want, I showed you the site (and there are others) which show reincarnation was embraced by early Christians and Jews. I have in one of my Jewish books here a story about lovers who were reincarnated because circumstances the first time wouldn't allow them to be together and the second time around God brought them together from childhood. Christians don't like the idea of reincarnation because it completely debunks their idea of eternal hell. There is NO HELL, only Sheol and it's temporary. You serve the time of your sins and you return to the Earth to try again till you get it right. Or you can choose to be reincarnated.

How nice, that's exactly what the hindus believe, except they can be reincarnated in other animals according to Karma.

And?

Theoretically...if god created in human kind in his own image, then since humans have the capacity for forgiveness shouldn't god. I personally do not think god cares about every detail of minutia...but perhaps looks at the bigger picture. I suppose average out the good and the bad we have done.

end

Exactly, it's the big picture that matters, not minor details.

I've always heard, "God is in the details"...

I've never heard that before.

i try to be positive and think god does forgive and that he loves me and all man kind but sometimes its hard, hard to believe that he still even cares about me or my mother. and some people hit a breaking point like for me i think if i died it would make life much easier on alot of the people in my life. With the idea of god forgives still creates hope for me, but i dont necessarily think people who commit suicide is particularly "people who gave up on god" sometims they face something that they dont wana survive for, some people just dont have a reason to live they dont have family,money,kids, or any one who loves them at all and they try to keep alive and striving every day but just have nothing to keep them striving day by day, but i dont recommend suicide but some people have no other way

Some people are fully capable of forgiving anything, so if they're more "forgiving" than God, then something is amiss with the way things are set up.

Or maybe the misunderstanding is on our part for not knowing how God works.

Your right,some people seem to forgive no matter what but most have a limit.Does God have a limit and if he does is it the same as a persons?Are we right to have limits?

God always forgives, but we have to ask him for forgiveness. The 1st step must always come from the offender, is that not so?

We should also always forgive but unfortunately we don't because, yes, we do have a limit, unlike God. This limit is dtermined by our ego and our sense of self worth, in my opinion, which are both intimately related.

Our cultural background also is a determining factor in our continued forgiveness or rather our limit. When society views continued forgiveness as stupidity and being a "sap", it is no wonder that we don't forgive more than we rightfully should.

The concept of unconditional love is to love without linits. For the rational mind to grasp this view it would need a logical worldview to work with. This by the way is another good reason to think from your heart and not from your head. Logic, the left side of our brain, is frequently disconnected from the right brain. In my view, compassion, starting with yourself, will solve a lot of problems. In any case there is a school of thought reguading forgiveness for sins. What I present is just a logical worldview that may be worth consideration.

Once upon a time when we made this physical universe we set up the laws of cause and effect(sin and punishment). We did this with the understanding it would take a while for us to work through how this law worked in pratice. We knew everything is connected and we created ourselves into this reality as seperate from all things. So to keep our survival rate high enough to learn our lessons, it was necessary to establish guidelines, not laws, for us to follow. Much of what we call God's Laws today are the guidelines we provided ourselves. The hope was, and still is, we would talk to God and get fresh information as various insights presented themself.

So in my view, God Does not Forgive, because there is Nothing to Forgive. The crimes we speak of are lessons in cause and effect. This reality of dark and light has a purpose. Our participation as either a dark or light energy will never truly hide our divinity from the he/she/it that walks with us every step of the way.

Well, however I might agree with the spirit of the message it is beyond me how you come to the conclusion that God Does not Forgive, because there is Nothing to Forgive.

It seems that your concept of who God is is a little different from that of christians. It almost seems that you are quoting from Atlantean Mythology or would that be Shangri-Lá?

John, I am in complete agreement, and I know where you're coming from on that.

I don't believe God forgives us. I think he just punishes us for everything we did wrong in life. There is nothing you can do to stop him from punishing you. You can repent all you want. You can say your sorry. None of it will do you any good. He will still punish you for it. I believe he is a god of justice. As a god of justice he has to punish us for all the wrongs we comitted.

A God of Justice but also a God that shows mercy on a repentant heart.

Hmmm...with that kind of thinking, I wonder what kind of cosmic leather belt God uses when he decides to open up a can of good ol' fashion ass whoop on his little minions.

As John mentioned earlier, the Cosmic entity I know and love isn't that great of a SOB that he can't forgive a few dumb mistakes committed by an insignificant jerk like me.

If my God was like yours, I'd be in some serious terrible trouble--

There is no sin therefore no need for forgiveness. The is no cause and effect, there is only being.

Bnw, So, you believe that there is no good, or bad- All acts are part of it's place in order with/of life, or harmony? No consequences, but simply results?

That is kinda right. Good and evil are different ends of the same rope. You cannot have one without the other. Where evil is good is present and where good is evil is inevitable. They dont exist as mutually exclusive opposites. Can you describe light without refering to darkness? Can you describe or define up with inferring from down?

There is no cause and effect. There is only being. In this eternal universe without beginning or end there is just "isness". All else is superimposed illusion. Forgiveness is only present while there is a belief in sin. And we will always be punished for and by sin while the belief lasts.

There is no result because there is no cause for a result to take effect.

I am wanting to understand where your coming from, so bare with me-- :}
I believe that where there is evil, there is good. That I can understand--- If there is a scale of evil on the 10, you will find the scale of goodness on that level of 10 somewhere also. BUT, how are YOU applying your thoughts on this with the world today? I know how I would apply mine... For example, With this perspective you have, how do you view the acts of let's say a child murderer?
Does this make sense?

I may sound contradictive and harsh but bare with me. I myself prefer to do what is considered good because I'd rather live in a society or environment where we are good to one another than one in which we are negative and ill-mannered towards one another.

Even though I do this I know that utimately there is no difference between the two. And that great good can only exist with the existence of great evil, yet I strive for the good which is beyond what we call good (abstract good).

As for a child murderer I do my best to hold no judgement and not consider him evil. Because I am not perfect and havn't achieved the ultimate good I am in no position to consider someone else lower or less worthy of good.
Everything happens according to the will of the universe and there is nothing I can do about it.

To move down a few rungs of the abstract ladder, I believe the child murderer should be forgiven and given a new chance to make amends for himself. I hold no hate for those who commit atrocity but only pity.

When it comes down to it we should do what we can to help others and mitigate whatever suffering there is. But also we must never forget that without suffering we never become anything more than superficial. Suffering is in fact blessings in disguise. And when I say this I do not imply that we should go out and cause others suffering. We should live and let live. But suffering and pain helps us develop, grow and question what we take for granted. It deepens us and makes us appreciative of what we have.

Also I say forgiveness of all who have commited atrocity because I know if I did anything like it I myself I would want it. I would feel very sorry for the child that was murdered and more so for the family that has to deal with it. But I would also have heavy sympathy for the man who is going through the the tormenting guilt of what he has done and knowing that he cannot bring back what he has done and that he has to live with that guilt for the rest of his life.

And how do you punish those whose remorse is already greater than their misdeeds? --Kahlil Gibran

To understand everything is to forgive everything. --Buddha

The raft of knowledge ferries the worst sinner to safety. --Bhagavad Gita

You don't HAVE to confess to a priest, after all, the priest isn't god. You could even go in a different direction and confess to both god and ur priest. lol kind of strange isnt it.

Anyway, imo, you don't have to confess to be forgiven, you just have to pray and feel sorry. God really will forgive you, we are just human.

BTW, I think that to be forgiven, you must forgive.

All very well and good, unless suddenly you are faced with the situation where it is your family that has suffered at that persons hands. We can't avoid the feelings we have and more often than not, we act on them for good or for bad.

This theoretical relativity you are talking about would only hold in a pacific world without violence, thus it is abstract and without a practical application. There must be boundries of concept especially what is right and what is wrong, without these there is only anarchy and not civilization.

As a civilization, we have to impose consequences on acts that would otherwise be acceptable.

Good and evil cannot be relegated to mere abstract form where one mans honey is another mans poison. Without boundries we would soon be extinct.

I say we bring back ritual executions of really bad people. I mean REALLY bad - or we can just hold 'em down, paint a big ol' bullseye on their foreheads, and let 'em loose in a good old boy's duck shoot.