Origins of the Romani People
by Ian Hancock
The Roma have been made up of many different groups of people from the very beginning, and have absorbed outsiders throughout their history. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey or Nubia or Egypt, or any number of vaguely acknowledged non-European places, and they were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from. In some places, this Egyptian identity was taken entirely seriously, and was no doubt borrowed by the early Roma themselves. In the 15th century, James the Fifth of Scotland concluded a treaty with a local Romani leader pledging the support of his armies to help recover "Little Egypt" (an old name for Epirus, on the Greek-Albanian coast) for them.
It was not until the second half of the 18th century that scholars in Europe began to realize that the Romani language, in fact, came from India. Basic words, such as some numerals and kinship terms, and names for body parts, actions, and so on, were demonstrably Indian. So—they concluded—if the language were originally Indian, its speakers very likely must be as well. Once they realized this, their next questions were the obvious ones: if Roma were indeed from India, when did they leave, and why, and are there still Roma in that country?
At the very beginning of the 11th century, India came under attack by the Muslim general Mahmud of Ghazni, who was trying to push Islam eastwards into India, which was mainly Hindu territory. The Indian rulers had been assembling troops to hold back the Muslim army for several centuries already, deliberately drawing their warriors from various populations who were not Aryan. The Aryans had moved into India many centuries before, and had pushed the original population down into the south, or else had absorbed them into the lowest strata of their own society, which began to separate into different social levels or castes, called varnas ("colors") in Sanskrit.
The Aryans regarded Aryan life as being more precious than non-Aryan life, and would not risk losing it in battle. So the troops that were assembled to fight the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni were all taken from non-Aryan populations, and made honorary members of the Kshattriya, or warrior caste, and allowed to wear their battledress and emblems.
They were taken from many different ethnic groups who spoke many different languages and dialects. Some were Lohars and Gujjars, some were Tandas, some were Rajputs, non-Indian peoples who had come to live in India some centuries before, and some may also have been Siddhis, Africans from the East African coast who fought as mercenaries for both the Hindus and the Muslims. This composite army moved out of India through the mountain passes and west into Persia, battling with Muslim forces all along the eastern limit of Islam. While this is to an extent speculative, it is based upon sound linguistic and historical evidence, and provides the best-supported scenario to date. Because Islam was not only making inroads into India to the east, but was also being spread westwards into Europe, this conflict carried the Indian troops—the early Roma—further and further in that direction, until they eventually crossed over into southeastern Europe about the year 1300.
From the very beginning, then, the Romani population has been made up of various different peoples who have come together for different reasons. As the ethnically and linguistically mixed occupational population from India moved further and further away from its land of origin (beginning in the 11th century), so it began to acquire its own ethnic identity, and it was at this time that the Romani language also began to take shape. But the mixture of peoples and languages didn’t stop there, for as the warriors moved northwestwards through Persia, they took words and grammar from Persian, and no doubt absorbed new members too; and the same thing happened in Armenia and in the Byzantine Empire, and has continued to happen in Europe. In some instances, the mingling of small groups of Roma with other peoples has resulted in such groups being absorbed into them and losing their Romani identity; the Jenisch are perhaps such an example. In others, it has been the outsiders who have been absorbed, and who, in the course of time, have become one with the Romani group.
In Europe, Roma were either kept in slavery in the Balkans (in territory that is today Romania), or else were able to move on and up into the rest of the continent, reaching every northern and western country by about 1500. In the course of time, as a result of having interacted with various European populations, and being fragmented into widely-separated groups, Roma have emerged as a collection of distinct ethnic groups within the larger whole.
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The Honorable Ian F. Hancock, of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).
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I will add information on the various beliefs of the Rroma or "Gyspies" as we are often called.
A brief history of myeslf however...
I am a halfblooded Gypsy.
My Mother being of the Kalderash which is one of the four major tribes or nations of Rom, I have been interested in the beliefs of my forefathers for a long time due in a large part to my grandfather who was incredibly proud of his heritage and quite able to tell tales of our history.
I have been a Tarot Reader for perhaps 12 of my 20 years and know a considerable amount about the history and beliefs of my ancestors
So without further ado I will open the floor for questions and will try to answer all that are sent.
Could I start by saying that Gypsies are NOT witches, NOT evil and let you all go from there....
Full Version: Rroma history
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
My mother is an expert Tarot reader. Did you know that the keys in the Tarot represent angels mostly both fallen and unfallen.
Hmm.
I have heard that ASC.
But I am of the opinion that the Keys represent different parts of our Psyche's.
Or perhaps refer to is a better word... I'll have to think about that.
I have heard that ASC.
But I am of the opinion that the Keys represent different parts of our Psyche's.
Or perhaps refer to is a better word... I'll have to think about that.
QUOTE
Could I start by saying that Gypsies are NOT witches, NOT evil and let you all go from there....
Are you saying Witches are evil?
Interesting history though.
Nope. Not saying witches are evil,
Merely making the statement that when a person is a Gypsy it doesn't automatically make them a witch, Nor does it automatically make them evil, or mediums or demon summoners or any of the other myths about the Gypsies.
It is amazing how many people automatically assume a Gypsy is looking to steal something or thinking of stealing a kid.
Merely making the statement that when a person is a Gypsy it doesn't automatically make them a witch, Nor does it automatically make them evil, or mediums or demon summoners or any of the other myths about the Gypsies.
It is amazing how many people automatically assume a Gypsy is looking to steal something or thinking of stealing a kid.
QUOTE(AtlantisRises @ Mar 14 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]1582207[/snapback]
Nope. Not saying witches are evil,
Merely making the statement that when a person is a Gypsy it doesn't automatically make them a witch, Nor does it automatically make them evil, or mediums or demon summoners or any of the other myths about the Gypsies.
It is amazing how many people automatically assume a Gypsy is looking to steal something or thinking of stealing a kid.
Merely making the statement that when a person is a Gypsy it doesn't automatically make them a witch, Nor does it automatically make them evil, or mediums or demon summoners or any of the other myths about the Gypsies.
It is amazing how many people automatically assume a Gypsy is looking to steal something or thinking of stealing a kid.
What religion do the Gypsies follow in general, Hindu?
Romani culture is diverse and there is no universal culture per se, but there are attributes common to all Roma: loyalty to family (extended and clan); belief in Del (God) and beng (the Devil); belief in predestiny; Romaniya, standards and norms, varying in degree from tribe to tribe; and adaptability to changing conditions. Integration of many Roma into gajikané (non-Roma, or foreign) culture due to settlement has diluted many Romani cultural values and beliefs. Not all tribes have the same definition of who and what is "Roma." What may be accepted as "true-Roma" by one group may be gadjé to another. Romani culture is diverse, with many traditions and customs, and all tribes around the world have their own individual beliefs and tenets. It would be invalid to generalize and oversimplify by giving concrete rules to all Roma. Despite what some groups may believe, there is no one tribe that can call themselves the one, "true" Roma.
http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/history.htm
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Now most Romas beliefs are more or less dualistic in nature. Del and Beng are opposite forces but are sometimes refered to as to sides to the same being.
There is also a strong belief in the spirits of individual nations or clans of Rroma.
The actual belief is hard to place Darkwind.
Personally I think it is a combination of many of the beliefs of those amalgamated into the Gypsy nations over time.
Similar to Voodoo but developed over a much longer period.
http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/history.htm
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Now most Romas beliefs are more or less dualistic in nature. Del and Beng are opposite forces but are sometimes refered to as to sides to the same being.
There is also a strong belief in the spirits of individual nations or clans of Rroma.
The actual belief is hard to place Darkwind.
Personally I think it is a combination of many of the beliefs of those amalgamated into the Gypsy nations over time.
Similar to Voodoo but developed over a much longer period.
Thank you, Atlantis. The belief system seems to be very much like the old Celtic faith, which came from the old Indo-European connections. The dualistic in Celtic is God and Goddess based not good and evil, though, the good and evil my be from mixing Christianity in it. Being the Rroma's are linked to the Aryans, there might be links to the old Veda faith. Might be worth looking into for fun.
*grins at Atlan*
Soooo... Does this make you one of us? *cackles*
Soooo... Does this make you one of us? *cackles*
interesting post there AR. i am going to look up more data on the roma.
My daughter is a Roma halfblood as well. (her father is full Roma whose family ended up here in the USA fleeing from Czech Rep. in around 1953) That's about all I know really other than what I've read to help her understand her ethnic background. Her father was never really interested in her, nor his family. After immigrating to the USA, they maintained some of their old country family ties, but any new blood such as my daughter was rather ignored. From what I can tell took the the Western culture and lifestyle like any other immigrant... which I think is something of a shame.
QUOTE(SilverCougar @ Mar 15 2007, 06:05 AM) [snapback]1582693[/snapback]
*grins at Atlan*
Soooo... Does this make you one of us? *cackles*
Soooo... Does this make you one of us? *cackles*
Meh dunno about that. Personally I don't subscribe to the theistic beliefs of the Rroma. Some of the beliefs are interesting but the Enbodyment of Good and Evil is something I disagree with...
EDIT{But if you supply the Rum I might become one of you quickly}
Anyhow...
QUOTE
The Roma have been known as entertainers in every country they have traveled. In eastern Europe, the Roma have been known as skilled acrobats, bear trainers, horse trainers, musicians, dancers and singers. They have owned and operated traveling carnivals and circuses. They have been prized by royalty as court musicians for their mastery of musical styles.
Roma have contributed their own unique styles to middle eastern music, Jewish klezmer music, flamenco music and dance, jazz, and they have influenced other artists in their music and art, among them Liszt, Bizet, Brahms, Dvorák, Verdi, Rachmaninov, and Bartok.
Many well-known modern entertainers have claimed Romani ancestry, including the actor and Roma activist, Yul Brynner; the comedian, Charlie Chaplin; the actress, Rita Hayworth; the actor, Michael Caine; and the actor and director Bob Hoskins. The Gipsy Kings are perhaps the best known Roma musical entertainers in the world today.
The Romanes language has not had many important authors, primarily because of the absence of a universal standard in written Romanes. Among Roma authors are the novelist Mateo Maximoff, a Kalderash Rom, writing in French, translated by others into English and other languages. Papusza, the Romni poetess from Poland, is being "rediscovered" by new readers. Today, important Roma authors are emerging from Europe with critical acclaim, writing in Romanes.
Roma have contributed their own unique styles to middle eastern music, Jewish klezmer music, flamenco music and dance, jazz, and they have influenced other artists in their music and art, among them Liszt, Bizet, Brahms, Dvorák, Verdi, Rachmaninov, and Bartok.
Many well-known modern entertainers have claimed Romani ancestry, including the actor and Roma activist, Yul Brynner; the comedian, Charlie Chaplin; the actress, Rita Hayworth; the actor, Michael Caine; and the actor and director Bob Hoskins. The Gipsy Kings are perhaps the best known Roma musical entertainers in the world today.
The Romanes language has not had many important authors, primarily because of the absence of a universal standard in written Romanes. Among Roma authors are the novelist Mateo Maximoff, a Kalderash Rom, writing in French, translated by others into English and other languages. Papusza, the Romni poetess from Poland, is being "rediscovered" by new readers. Today, important Roma authors are emerging from Europe with critical acclaim, writing in Romanes.
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/culture.htm
As for links to the Old Veda I have to say I suspect there is something to that Darkwind.
The Rroma flag
Contains a 16 spoke Chakra in the centre which I feel is an acknowledgement of their Hindu/Veda background. Similar to the 24 spoked Chakra on the Indian Flag. The Chakra in this case is a representation of Movement and also Creation.
Hmmm...
For the first time I looked at your profile picture Atlantis... do you find that many Roma share similar physical features in looks? I swear, you and my daughter look like you could be related--in fact you bare a striking resemblance to her father more than anything. Check it out... if you check out my profile, you'll see she and I look NOTHING alike. (before anyone yells at me, no I am not worried about posting her photo, this picture has been used in international travel ad campaigns)
For the first time I looked at your profile picture Atlantis... do you find that many Roma share similar physical features in looks? I swear, you and my daughter look like you could be related--in fact you bare a striking resemblance to her father more than anything. Check it out... if you check out my profile, you'll see she and I look NOTHING alike. (before anyone yells at me, no I am not worried about posting her photo, this picture has been used in international travel ad campaigns)
She does look similar. And in answer to that. Yes. There are certain characteristics that arre similar between Rroma.
The hair is often a dark brown though not quite black. This is fairly indicative of most Rroma. Also there are physical similarities, particularly facially. The cheekbones, forehead.
It should be remembered that the cultural melting pot that produced the Rroma had a huge range of people in it. Aryans, many others of india, some African and even asian blood. Not to mention the Arabic and Turk blood that was picked up during the journey from India to Central Europe.
That mix of blood is quite unique to the Rroma as most other nationallities stayed in the one place and didn't interbreed so much.
The hair is often a dark brown though not quite black. This is fairly indicative of most Rroma. Also there are physical similarities, particularly facially. The cheekbones, forehead.
It should be remembered that the cultural melting pot that produced the Rroma had a huge range of people in it. Aryans, many others of india, some African and even asian blood. Not to mention the Arabic and Turk blood that was picked up during the journey from India to Central Europe.
That mix of blood is quite unique to the Rroma as most other nationallities stayed in the one place and didn't interbreed so much.
The Rroma and names.
Roma typically have three names. The first is known only by the mother and very close friends; it is given at the time of birth. Its purpose is to confuse evil spirits by keeping the real name of the child from them. The second name is conferred at the time of baptism, and is the commonly used name within the tribe. A third, different name may be given when the child is re-baptized in a Christian church. It has little importance, except when dealing with non-Roma.
The most important of our names known as our Heart or Spirit Name is told very rarely to outsiders.
Only the Parents are told. It is a symbol of immense respect and friendship if a Rroma is to tell you their heartname. To tell someone else the Heartname of another would be one of the greatest betrayels of that friendship immaginable.
Another important part of the Rroma beliefs is that of bibaxt or Bad luck. This is completely independent of Del and Beng. To counter bibaxt Rroma utilize an assortment of Good luck charms and talismans.
Roma typically have three names. The first is known only by the mother and very close friends; it is given at the time of birth. Its purpose is to confuse evil spirits by keeping the real name of the child from them. The second name is conferred at the time of baptism, and is the commonly used name within the tribe. A third, different name may be given when the child is re-baptized in a Christian church. It has little importance, except when dealing with non-Roma.
The most important of our names known as our Heart or Spirit Name is told very rarely to outsiders.
Only the Parents are told. It is a symbol of immense respect and friendship if a Rroma is to tell you their heartname. To tell someone else the Heartname of another would be one of the greatest betrayels of that friendship immaginable.
Another important part of the Rroma beliefs is that of bibaxt or Bad luck. This is completely independent of Del and Beng. To counter bibaxt Rroma utilize an assortment of Good luck charms and talismans.
QUOTE(AtlantisRises @ Mar 14 2007, 01:15 PM) [snapback]1582151[/snapback]
But I am of the opinion that the Keys represent different parts of our Psyche's.
I also agree with your opinion.
QUOTE(AtlantisRises @ Mar 16 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]1584789[/snapback]
She does look similar. And in answer to that. Yes. There are certain characteristics that arre similar between Rroma.
The hair is often a dark brown though not quite black. This is fairly indicative of most Rroma. Also there are physical similarities, particularly facially. The cheekbones, forehead.
It should be remembered that the cultural melting pot that produced the Rroma had a huge range of people in it. Aryans, many others of india, some African and even asian blood. Not to mention the Arabic and Turk blood that was picked up during the journey from India to Central Europe.
That mix of blood is quite unique to the Rroma as most other nationallities stayed in the one place and didn't interbreed so much.
The hair is often a dark brown though not quite black. This is fairly indicative of most Rroma. Also there are physical similarities, particularly facially. The cheekbones, forehead.
It should be remembered that the cultural melting pot that produced the Rroma had a huge range of people in it. Aryans, many others of india, some African and even asian blood. Not to mention the Arabic and Turk blood that was picked up during the journey from India to Central Europe.
That mix of blood is quite unique to the Rroma as most other nationallities stayed in the one place and didn't interbreed so much.
That is so cool. Her hair is definately a VERY dark brown but not black, she happens to be blue eyed as is her entire father's family (I am too). She has high but soft cheekbones. her face is primarily heart shaped rather than roundish, I think she gets that from her grandmother--my mother. Her fathers face shape is more like yours. What is interesting, is that she is extremely fair skinned, but put her in the sun for an hour and she turns very olive dark (she tends to stay out of the sun entirely). No one else in my family does... we're all pale Danes who burn like crispy critters.
Thanks for sharing this thread... this is some more information I can give to her since we don't know any other Rroma and what information we've been able to get has been through articles and wikipedia. It's cool that someone has some real life experience and stories. She has a gift for languages (especially asian languages) and I think there's a part of her that would love to learn the Romani language, but it's difficult to find a source that can teach her.
If you have any language resources, even basic articles, she'd love to see them.
Thanks Atlantis, you rock!
Oh Atlan.. where's my bottle of Bundyrummystuff? You're Roma... you can do it sneakily!
Patrin Journal
If you want ANY information on the Rroma this is a great place to start.
It is imo the best Rroma related site on the net.
There is some basic language stuff there as well. For more indepth laguage stuff its hard to find it. Really its necessary to know a native speaker.
Personally I can speak Romani though its far from fluent and also a little Lomarvren.
Unfortunately I never really worked on my language with my Grandfather enough and now its unfortunately to late.
I would like to one day learn it from someone who is fluent but I have the same problem as your daughter, there are very few Rroma I know personally and the majority of them don't speak Romani much. Unfortunately the three languages are slowly dying and I doubt if there will be any fluent speakers in 50 years...
Its quite a shame
If you want ANY information on the Rroma this is a great place to start.
It is imo the best Rroma related site on the net.
There is some basic language stuff there as well. For more indepth laguage stuff its hard to find it. Really its necessary to know a native speaker.
Personally I can speak Romani though its far from fluent and also a little Lomarvren.
Unfortunately I never really worked on my language with my Grandfather enough and now its unfortunately to late.
I would like to one day learn it from someone who is fluent but I have the same problem as your daughter, there are very few Rroma I know personally and the majority of them don't speak Romani much. Unfortunately the three languages are slowly dying and I doubt if there will be any fluent speakers in 50 years...
Its quite a shame
Rroma Taboos.
http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/beliefs.htm#Taboos
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As said above the Rroma have many Taboos. Some of them are considered by many to be harsh and unrealistic in a modern world.
Personally I disagree with many of the rules involving females but realise that they are little different then other taboos developed at a similar time.
QUOTE
Most of Roma society relies heavily on distinctions between behavior that is pure, vujo or wuzho, and polluted, or marimé. Marimé has a dual meaning to the Roma. It refers both to a state of pollution or defilement as well as to the sentence of expulsion imposed for violation of purity rules or any behavior disruptive to the Roma community. Pollution and rejection are thus closely associated with one another. Pollution taboos, and their names, vary from group to group and often among smaller Romani units. Nevertheless, Roma define themselves in part by their adherence to these cleanliness rituals. There may be class distinctions among some Roma, based on how strictly individuals or families maintain distinctions between purity and impurity.
The marimé concept applied to personal hygiene means "dirty" or "polluted." Much of it stems from the division of a woman's body into two parts, above the waist and below the waist. A woman is clean from the waist up and "polluted" from the waist down. There is no shame, lashav, connected with the upper part of the body. The lower part of the body is, however, an object of shame, baro lashav, because it is associated with menstruation. The fact that blood flows without injury seems to be the proof of a bodily impurity. This concept of marimé as applied to women is one explanation in many tribes the Roma women wear long skirts and the fact that the bottom of those skirts must not touch a man other than the Roma woman's husband.
Traditionally, a woman in a house must not pass in front of a man, or even between two men. She must go around them in order to avoid "infecting" them. At meals, the men must be served from the rear for the same reason. If a Roma woman is not wearing the traditional long skirt, she must cover her legs with a blanket or coat when sitting.
Many of the traditional laws of hygiene deal with water. For example, Roma must wash only in running water. A shower would be acceptable, but a bath would not be, for the person would be sitting or lying in dirty, stagnant water. Dishes cannot be rinsed in the same sink or basin that is used for washing personal clothing. The kitchen sink is used only for washing dishes, and therefore it cannot ever be used for washing one's hands. In addition, women's clothes and men's clothes cannot be washed together, because of the impurities of the women's bodies.
Certain Roma tribes have set specific and very rigid rules for the drawing of water from a river or stream. The water from the farthest point upstream, therefore the purest, is used for drinking and cooking. Working their way downstream, the water is used for washing dishes and bathing. Further down the stream water is used for washing or nourishing horses. Further down washing clothes is appropriate, and at the farthest point downstream, washing the clothes of pregnant or menstruating women. In order to make certain that there will be no impurities, separate pails are always used for the different uses of water.
Some traditional rules might make sense to the non-Roma. The surfaces of tables used for eating are kept spotless. Handkerchiefs for blowing the nose are frowned upon. They merely preserve the dirt of the nose. For this reason Roma prefer to blow their noses in disposable material. In any case, after blowing the nose or sneezing, one must wash before eating.
To some, the marimé code of pollution may seen unfair to women. However, marimé also gives women great power among Roma, the threat of pollution is so great. Pre-pubescent girls and older women are placed in a different category from other women, because they do not menstruate. This allows them more freedom and they are allowed to socially interact with men with fewer restrictions.
There are remedies or punishments for a person who has become infected, or marimé. Minor offenses, clearly unintentional ones, can be forgiven by those present at the time the offense is committed. More serious ones must be dealt with by the community and, in some cases, by the kris.
The marimé concept applied to personal hygiene means "dirty" or "polluted." Much of it stems from the division of a woman's body into two parts, above the waist and below the waist. A woman is clean from the waist up and "polluted" from the waist down. There is no shame, lashav, connected with the upper part of the body. The lower part of the body is, however, an object of shame, baro lashav, because it is associated with menstruation. The fact that blood flows without injury seems to be the proof of a bodily impurity. This concept of marimé as applied to women is one explanation in many tribes the Roma women wear long skirts and the fact that the bottom of those skirts must not touch a man other than the Roma woman's husband.
Traditionally, a woman in a house must not pass in front of a man, or even between two men. She must go around them in order to avoid "infecting" them. At meals, the men must be served from the rear for the same reason. If a Roma woman is not wearing the traditional long skirt, she must cover her legs with a blanket or coat when sitting.
Many of the traditional laws of hygiene deal with water. For example, Roma must wash only in running water. A shower would be acceptable, but a bath would not be, for the person would be sitting or lying in dirty, stagnant water. Dishes cannot be rinsed in the same sink or basin that is used for washing personal clothing. The kitchen sink is used only for washing dishes, and therefore it cannot ever be used for washing one's hands. In addition, women's clothes and men's clothes cannot be washed together, because of the impurities of the women's bodies.
Certain Roma tribes have set specific and very rigid rules for the drawing of water from a river or stream. The water from the farthest point upstream, therefore the purest, is used for drinking and cooking. Working their way downstream, the water is used for washing dishes and bathing. Further down the stream water is used for washing or nourishing horses. Further down washing clothes is appropriate, and at the farthest point downstream, washing the clothes of pregnant or menstruating women. In order to make certain that there will be no impurities, separate pails are always used for the different uses of water.
Some traditional rules might make sense to the non-Roma. The surfaces of tables used for eating are kept spotless. Handkerchiefs for blowing the nose are frowned upon. They merely preserve the dirt of the nose. For this reason Roma prefer to blow their noses in disposable material. In any case, after blowing the nose or sneezing, one must wash before eating.
To some, the marimé code of pollution may seen unfair to women. However, marimé also gives women great power among Roma, the threat of pollution is so great. Pre-pubescent girls and older women are placed in a different category from other women, because they do not menstruate. This allows them more freedom and they are allowed to socially interact with men with fewer restrictions.
There are remedies or punishments for a person who has become infected, or marimé. Minor offenses, clearly unintentional ones, can be forgiven by those present at the time the offense is committed. More serious ones must be dealt with by the community and, in some cases, by the kris.
http://www.geocities.com/~patrin/beliefs.htm#Taboos
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As said above the Rroma have many Taboos. Some of them are considered by many to be harsh and unrealistic in a modern world.
Personally I disagree with many of the rules involving females but realise that they are little different then other taboos developed at a similar time.
VERY interesting post Atlantis! My daughter is probably going to roll her eyes about this one. Very interesting history, but by in large the rules of running water are actually very sensible (well except for that part about washing womens clothes at the furthest point downstream )
It's funny, I actually remember my daughters father's mom serving at the dinner table and she ALWAYS served from behind, and she did serve, food was rarely served family style in the middle of the table. Now I know why--in fact, now I kinda feel stupid for telling her to sit down and enjoy dinner -- not that she probably remembers, that was 20 years ago.
)It's funny, I actually remember my daughters father's mom serving at the dinner table and she ALWAYS served from behind, and she did serve, food was rarely served family style in the middle of the table. Now I know why--in fact, now I kinda feel stupid for telling her to sit down and enjoy dinner -- not that she probably remembers, that was 20 years ago.
Yep. Certainly agree that some of the tabboos and customs are archaic and outdated but I guess they were made in a day when such customs were not uncommon.
My Grandmother acted the same quite a bit for reasons that I did not know until I was a little older. Until my grandfather explained some of the customs to me.
Certainly I disagree with many of them.
BuT I agree that the water customs make sense. Indeed I rarely if ever take a bath... Its a shower for I
My Grandmother acted the same quite a bit for reasons that I did not know until I was a little older. Until my grandfather explained some of the customs to me.
Certainly I disagree with many of them.
BuT I agree that the water customs make sense. Indeed I rarely if ever take a bath... Its a shower for I
Interesting...
My daughter and I were talking about the marimé concept earlier this morning... she pointed out something to me that I hadn't even considered. In today's modern world, this isn't actually unheard of, although still considered primative. She lived on a south Pacific Island when she was 15 with her grandparents. The marimé concept (although there's no word for it there) is in full force in many of the native tribes. Women frequently go bare breasted, but it is considered absolutely taboo to show at least any skin above the knee. She believes it stems from a similar concept, and that it has little to do with sex or desire, but everything to do with "uncleanliness". She said she was never quite clear on it, because of a language barrier, but she abided by their rules and never wore anything that hit her above the knee.
She didn't roll her eyes as much as I thought she would.... good girl!
My daughter and I were talking about the marimé concept earlier this morning... she pointed out something to me that I hadn't even considered. In today's modern world, this isn't actually unheard of, although still considered primative. She lived on a south Pacific Island when she was 15 with her grandparents. The marimé concept (although there's no word for it there) is in full force in many of the native tribes. Women frequently go bare breasted, but it is considered absolutely taboo to show at least any skin above the knee. She believes it stems from a similar concept, and that it has little to do with sex or desire, but everything to do with "uncleanliness". She said she was never quite clear on it, because of a language barrier, but she abided by their rules and never wore anything that hit her above the knee.
She didn't roll her eyes as much as I thought she would.... good girl!
My aunt who raised me is Magyar Tszigani. Her family name was "Justi" if you are familiar with it. Her father was a Puzta Sicos ( Badlands Freeman) from the Hortabagy. There is also a group of Irish Travelers of the Mitchell Clan who live here in the "Lower Pine Barrens". They use to show up at my tribe's ( the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape) "Feast of the Dead" when we held it at this abandon pony track. Some of us still bonfire party with them sometimes and "quarter mile race" horses with them. Fasinating culture. We always try to see which people is better at "out foxing" the Yengi swannock ( Yankee American). But I think I told you some of this already.
Lapiche nitis- I did not realize yo changed your "call sign". I'm not on the forum too much when the weather is warm
Lapiche nitis- I did not realize yo changed your "call sign". I'm not on the forum too much when the weather is warm
More you tell about where you live, Piney my love... the more I wish I was there.
mhm.
My apologies for bumping my old thread.
However I do feel like a rediscussion of much in it and I think the points that have been raised are very valid.
mhm. Piney, I don't know a whole lot about the Irish Travellers. Because the Rroma groups are so close knit I know little about the non-Kalderashi's. Indeed the Rrom I know always spoke quite derogatorily about the Other Groups such as the Rromanichel and the like.
I will later bring some more relevant information about the history of my mothers people to the thread but in the mean time please re read and get acquainted with my folki
My apologies for bumping my old thread.
However I do feel like a rediscussion of much in it and I think the points that have been raised are very valid.
mhm. Piney, I don't know a whole lot about the Irish Travellers. Because the Rroma groups are so close knit I know little about the non-Kalderashi's. Indeed the Rrom I know always spoke quite derogatorily about the Other Groups such as the Rromanichel and the like.
I will later bring some more relevant information about the history of my mothers people to the thread but in the mean time please re read and get acquainted with my folki
And this is part of what I've experienced myself having a child that's half rRoma. Her father was basically prohibited from knowing her by his family (he is full rRoma) and their insular practices are incredibly secretive and they don't take well to outsiders at all as evidenced by their treatment of my own child. You are either in or out, and they decide that. As far as I can tell, children who are "half-breed" are out. (although many years later, her father did marry and have children with an outsider, those children are only begrudgenly acknowledged by the family from what I understand)
I've never quite understood the links between the clan my daughter would be associated with (who are Czech--I don't even know their official name), and the links to Irish Travelers, but I've heard they do exist.
You'd think that in order to preserve their culture and traditions, they'd be interested in teaching anyone of the blood their language, traditions and beliefs, if only to ensure the culture doesn't die out. My daughter would LOVE to learn the language, and could do so easily since she already speaks 5 others... but, no one will teach her. She's "out".
I've never quite understood the links between the clan my daughter would be associated with (who are Czech--I don't even know their official name), and the links to Irish Travelers, but I've heard they do exist.
You'd think that in order to preserve their culture and traditions, they'd be interested in teaching anyone of the blood their language, traditions and beliefs, if only to ensure the culture doesn't die out. My daughter would LOVE to learn the language, and could do so easily since she already speaks 5 others... but, no one will teach her. She's "out".
Well now! Looky who's back! I thought you changed your forum name. You mean there's 2 Gypsies here?
I did pick up a copy of Angus Fraser's "The Gypsies". I also found some old slave documents about Scottish and English Gypsies being sold as slaves in Maryland and Virginia. I think the names Ceasar and Cisco (Francisco) found among "High Yellow" African Americans and Rappahannock, Saponi and Nanticoke Indians are of Roma origin.
I'll have to re-read that book now.
I did pick up a copy of Angus Fraser's "The Gypsies". I also found some old slave documents about Scottish and English Gypsies being sold as slaves in Maryland and Virginia. I think the names Ceasar and Cisco (Francisco) found among "High Yellow" African Americans and Rappahannock, Saponi and Nanticoke Indians are of Roma origin.
I'll have to re-read that book now.
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