Those cwazy Germans, what are they going to do next? WWI was not their fault, but since they were not victorious, all blame could be pinned on them. Need I remind you that Hitler himself was not German? he was from Austria. After Germany handed over complete power to the National Socialist Germans Workers Party (the Nazi party), the German peoples had no say in politics (ah, the miracles of facism ), so if Hitler wanted to take over Europe, the German people had to fight, no matter if they believed in it or not (ALL children 10 and up had to join Hitlers Youth, and even saw service).

And that brings me to my next point. Facism isn't a German invention. Mussolini was in power long before Hitler (although Italian Facism stresses on serving the state, while German facism tended to concentrate more on race). The superior race thing isn't a German a German invention either. It was being followed for centuries, the only reason that the Holocaust happened in Germany becuase it was a country down on it's luck in poor economic times that would trust power to a a racist madman with a serious grudge on WWI (since Hitler got injured in WWI, he blamed the Jews for the loss).

And let's not forget the stuff that is a German invintion. The, torpedoe, which allowed the submarine to become a more threatning weapon (although the first sub was Confederate, the Germans were the ones to perfect it). The jet engine, allowed advancement in flight travel. There are many, many more, the German people had the some of the best scientists and engineers in the world (yes, some of them were Jewish), and in fact, scientists that were forced to work for the Nazi party shelped start AVRO aircraft, which after it's bankrupt, moved over to NASA.

I am not a neo-Nazi. Some of my good friends are directly from Germany. Someone had to stick up for them. I am not that imformed about the Western Roman Empire or the Dark Ages ( the dark ages were not just because of Germany), but it is sometimes better to put the past behind us. The Nazi party is no longer in control of Germany, so there is no reason to hate. Almost every country has a dark past. American/Canadian (though when the British took control of Canada it was lightened up) slave drives and taking Native lands. The deportations of the Acadians. No one holds that against us, yet it still happened.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html



nuff said.

No, not nuff said.

Not just the Germans. LINK

I totally agree, and if anyone makes a thread about the massacres perpetrated by other countries I'll be more than happy to at least provide a link.
But since this thread is about Germany, that link has no relevance.

It is releveant because I also added you can't just blame the Germans. Hence the point I am trying to get across here.

OK, let's start with 'The Eugenics Program.'

Id like to intercede on krichter's behalf....i know he doesnt need me to do so, he's doing a stand up job.
almost everything he says can be verified. it doesnt take much digging to find that out, hence no need for refs, do a google or wiki search.
the problem seems to arise, as i have previously said from using the genralised term 'germans'...Germany did not become a political entity until very recently.
many germans fought for the romans, and against. Often against each other.
Roman philhellenism came about comparitively late in the republic...even Sulla was critisized for his affection for the Greek arts.
some romans never got to like it.

the capacity for evil is not racially specific. and all cultures accommodate situations where such behaviour has been tolerated, even encouraged by policy.
Uniforms, Hats, Masks and Warpaint. have more to do with the phsychological factors that permit behaviour unusual and intolerable to the everyday psyche.
ever read Gulag Archapeligo?
when people are stereotyped, demonised, or dehumanised it becomes easier to justify extreme acts against them. And propoganda is a primary method employed to achieve such mindsets.
in every culture that has been to war, or erradicated those who previously lived on lands that they wanted, or sought natural resources in another's territory- the first step is propoganda, the next is pretext.
Manifest Destiny is one excellent example. The decimation of the native american nations, their lands, and way of life....in the name of 'civilisation'
British control of India is another good example of this. they wiped out whole tribles and towns because they opposed the building of railways etc.
In Sri Lanka the British massacred the whole Royal Family to finally secure their grip on power....many horrific attrocities.
The Americans in both gulf wars thought nothing of bombing ancient sites, looting museums and banks and anything else they could find.....
not to mention their oil....killing whole families, raping and pillaging ....

thats what happens when u give complete knuckleheads uniforms and weapons and send them off on campaign....has always been that way.....its often been a way for a society to purge themselves of 'undesireable' characters at home....send them of to fight, they'll either get killed or come back with booty (a win win situation)....quite often you'll hear oldfolk saying...at least some in europe...that what we need is a good war....hehehehehe

Joseph Conrads image of Empire is quite illustrative and compelling, she walks with a light in her hand so that others can follow...but she is blinded and carries the sword.

look at the way Arabs and muslims have been treated by hollywood in the last 30 years.... they have carefully cultivated a negative picture of these peoples.
misinformation and reinforcing negative stereotypes often in a subtle manner is often overlooked or accepted case by case, but a picture builds up over time.
just look at the new film 300, could have done a very good epic, historical film, but no- chose a comic book rendition which reinforces- even hyperbolises such incorrect and damaging stereotypes. The iranians in usa are justified in their outrage.

Stereotypes can sometimes be fun, when pulling eachother's leg....it enriches interaction....
but when a negative stereotype is 'Believed to be true' it becomes dangerous, and those that believe it become dangerous; it makes them capable of the same 'evils' they wag their finger at.

besides this everyone seems to be jumping to the defence of germans...no problem with that....but if y'all be readin the posts that are already there itll save a lot of repetition and we can progress. if y'all be readin the posts that are already there itll save a lot of repetition. if y'all be readin the posts that are already there itll save a lot of repetition. if y'all be readin the posts that are already there itll save a lot of repetition. if y'all be readin the posts that are already there itll save a lot of repetition.

Thanks lil gremlin, great post. Here are some interesting links...

The Fall of Rome:
http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/romeco~2.htm
General German History:
http://www.germanculture.com.ua/library/hi...man_history.htm
Barbarians behaving badly:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...v58/ai_20770514
Adaptation of Roman culture and practices by the Franks:
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~chri2057/z2001rome.htm
WW2 Battle of Monte Cassino, read the Epiloque:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Monte_Cassino
http://www.montecassino1944.it/pagina-1-i.html (Read the second section, “The War arrives at Cassino.�
Rome, and Athens, and others, declared “Open Cities.�
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_city
Choltitz and the “destruction� of Paris:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/gener...on_choltitz.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_von_Choltitz

There are many more sources, these are just a few. My main point of contention throughout all of this thread is quite simple. Draconic had stated that all Germans are somehow unique in being evil that it’s in their blood. Then he tries to state that all of German history has been bloody and vicious. I’m just here to disprove his bigoted assertions. The Germans are human beings too. They are really no different than any other human. And like all people, they are capable of great things, as well as great evil. To single them out by race, is exactly what the Nazis would have done. Anyways, I think I’m done here; I’ll keep an eye out though, and maybe comment in the future, if necessary. Thanks.

Nah...we wouldn't hate you,.....now if you had some french that would be different.

If the British would hate Germans and Irish (why anyway?), what does one do when they are all 3 of these, plus Scotch and Welsh?

OOOOO dont let a scottish person hear u call him/her that.....they get a bit touchy about that...scotch is a drink.
the rest of ur post doesnt make sense...might be just the way im reading it.....whaddaya mean?.....

ps. im welsh....so I hate the English most.....everyone else is ok really....well....

the english hate the hun for the wars, the french for being so french....and hundreds of years of wars....
the irish for being irish, getting away with not being conquerd, winning independence in the south...and the troubles....lots of bombs....and being pished in london....(many pubs and shops in london, and other english towns...untill comparitively recently....had signs outside...."no dogs, no irish")
They hate the scots for wearing kilts even tho its so darn cold up there, they hate haggis and burns. they prefer laaargar to whiskey, football to golf....and they think that the scots are a bit tight with their wallets, ontop of that they are pished all the time.
and they hate us for pilfering their sheep, (it is still legal to kill a welshman in chester and other boardertowns if spotted within the town limits by midnight!)

hope i havent missed anyone out......
oh they hate the yanks for being loud, crude, with no sophistication....and for not understanding irony...and for being so much wealthier than them without being stuck up.
they hate the aussies for being the grandkids of ex-cons. for having a great life surfing and swimming and barbyQs and generally having a leasurly existence in a great climate, while they get cloudy skies and rain....Why did their parents bother obaying the queens laws???? they could have gone on holiday.
they hate the canadians for nearly being yanks, and for talking funny.

i could go on all day......

DON'T BLOODY BLAME THE GERMANS!!!!!! im german.

What I mean is I myself am Scotch, Irish, English, German and Welsh. How can I hate any of them if I AM all of them? I don't take offense, personally, to anyone calling me Scotch. It doesn't have to be "Scottish" for me.

read the thread dunderhead

doh, i see what u mean, looked at the post again and there it was, clear as day....sorry bout the confusion.
but ur ok with the scotch thing? thats a first for me. do u live in the states? havent read ur stuff. Its usually an american thing to be ok with scotch....
phone ur scottish rellies in scotland and ask-em.

how so the cocktail? its an impressive mix, or an unfortunate one depending on ur point of view but youve got some welsh in you so it probably balances out the bad influences

P.S. what accent do you have?

Yes, I guess I'm balanced out alright. There is even Dutch ancestory with my great-great grandmother. I'm not sure what you think are the "bad influences" though; you're saying that in jest, right? Aha, yes, I see that big grin there, hehe

I'm in the U.S. and I have no accent at all. My mother was from England and had that accent; her mother was from Scotland and had that accent. Growing up in Southern California (where I don't live anymore) "foreign" accents were hard to come by in my day; I loved listening to them talk.

I just thought of something. Maybe another way to explain the "Scotch" thing is that I was always told one of my heritages is "Scotch-Irish", as if to say that had been combined into its own nationality.

I could then either say I'm partly "Scotch-Irish" (as well as the other 3 nationalities I've previously mentioned) or say I'm "Scottish" and "Irish" which separates them into 2 nationalities again.

It was confusing, but I'm so used to this now. Just hoping I don't offend anyone who doesn't have the same perspective as mine.

you should watch you mouth before you really piss someone off that has a german heritage.

hahahahahahahahahah....dude please........hahahahahaha

if you had read the posts youd see that a few have come in like you and, having not read the thread, and missed the point.
read the thread.

btw why should i watch my mouth? what do you expect to happen?

{Wonders if this is where she is suppoed to press the Report button, and how many times for how many posts on this thread that have attacked people and/or their nationalities, and have done so in certain particular ways}.

For those who wonder what the heck I'm talking about, I refer you to this new thread http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=90849 where I've been told the remedy is to 'report' these things. That just isn't what I'm talking about at all, and it just is not the remedy for what I'm referring to.

Gremlin, I can respect that you're having a good laugh and all, perhaps because I am not German. However, this thread has gotten fairly ridiculous and what was the point in even starting it beside to rile people up? Is that what you do here? I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know.


And yes, I read the thread. Thank you.




Listen to Kratos.

fair point....i see where ur comming from, but scots-irish would be the ticket. dont think u would really have offended anyone,
my scots mates are quite sensitive about it, and others ive met, but they can usually tell the difference between someone using it because they dont realise, and someone winding them up, and someone being insulting.

personally i dont see much difference, its a bit pedantic if u ask me... i point out that scotch whiskey is called that because it is scottish, therefore scotch means scottish, and so ok to use....but nope they wont have it.

i have read the thread and it is insulting to me. look at the thread title and whats been posted. there is no point to this NONE

if youd like to know why i started the thread, just read it,
you'll see my point, i hope, i take at least some of u to be fairly intellegent.

I do believe you were attempting satirism, and while some can appreciate that, others will take offense. If you're only joking, then perhaps you should've posted in the jokes or gen discussion forum?

i agree with nadia. it was offensive to me and do not appreciate it.

here's a message copied from my sent items to greggk.


QUOTE - greggk
"I believe you misunderstood my point and my point was not to rehash old news, but to say that the Germans were not, I repeat, were not responsible for the wars or whatever else they may be blamed for. I don't know of any better beer!""


I agree entirely....and if you had read my posts...the serious ones...you'd see what i mean. The original post was a good way to draw people into the debate about stereotypes, propoganda, dehumanisation etc. The forum title is alternative history, i believe that the germans have been demonised by the allies during and post ww2. This does not solve the issues that were at stake at the time, more it glosses over the real issues- and dangerously it leaves us open to the same manipulation again...as the war in iraq and afghanistan shows.
first propoganda
then pretext
then action, and everybody believes it is for god and good.
The way we see history is often directed by the times we live in. as my ref to Gibbon shows...he was a bit of a dyed in the wool imperialist. and saw things a certain way, we see things differently now-and so need to readdress history in light of our new perceptions.

read my posts and ull see we agree.


***xx

its a shame that ive had to reiterate this, it just shows that folk dont read threads, or newspapers, just the headlines.

if you have read what i wrote i DID read it. all the same this does not belong here and IS offensive to me

Again, I read the post and nothing you really said personally offended. It's more some of the assinine responses you've gotten here that reflect the small-mindedness of some of the members. To blame GERMANS for crap that a few or a government did is ridiculous to the extreme and I'd wager that the people saying Germans are bad, will also say "don't blame me for what my government does". Ridiculous.

please explain what you find offensive in my posts.
what is offensive to you. did you miss the bit about my best mate, and many others being german, and that i speak basic german and am learning more?

or is it the mentioning of stereotypes? i can assure u they exist, and are a source of fun for many nations.
as ive said before, when people begin to 'believe' in negative stereotyping then it makes them dangerous.

i fail to see what is so offensive about all of this.
please explain so that i can better understand

i agree nadia, i noticed a tendency in other topics for people to hold strong (influenced) views, which have no historical or rational reason. Other than prejudice and media led stereotype. I thought that to engage this would be interesting. it is proving so thus far.

Like I said, I think it's the responses you've gotten. I don't think that you're bigoted or anything as I've not read that in your posts. I felt you were being tongue in cheek, actually. But we know that racism does exist, so why create a mess about it? It's not really a secret.

You'll find that to be fairly typical here. People can post what they please and don't feel the need to research or even explain themselves. Some have a "because I said so" attitude, and with a forum with this many members, there's not a lot you can do about that. I think people let their bad sides out more often here online because it's relatively safe. It just shows the true state of the world IMO.

You should all listen to the song Dalai Lama by rammstein. German culture is blatantly revealed in this retrofit of Der Erlkonig. It supplements a cultural dichotomy that afflicts the german agenda. It's a unique twist on the phrase, "one man's treasure is another's trash."

Rammstein rock, the point you raise is true of all cultures.

"one man is treasure, another is trash."

Rammstein write quite profound lyrics....clever guys. best in the genre.

sorry missed this post in all the curfuffle, Bad boy.
love accents and languages myself, some of the american ones are really nice. im sure you really do have an accent, but dont hear it...its often the way. i dont notice mine untill i hear myself on playback...
there are very few accents that i dont find aesthetically pleasing, wont say what they are incase i invite more abuse....even this changes from time to time, what irritates slightly one day becomes endearing some other time.
used to dislike the belfast accent when i was very young, but now to hear a pretty woman speak in this accent makes my knees all wobbley.

You probably hate southern US drawl, don't ya? *readies my bat*

LOL
no ...*flinching*...actually find it a very attractive accent.

Tell me that's a good flinch.

aye swerved a blow there i think.

genuinely think its a lovely accent tho...very soft, nice vowel sounds.

Just to come to Gremlin's defense here. I was never offended with his original post. I knew he was being sarcastic. The thread then became this love-fest for all things German, and was quite pleasing to see how many people seem the appreciate the Germans. It wasn't until another member appeared on this thread and really started to write vicious, racist comments, that made me as someone of German descent really upset. That's when I went on the offensive. I'm glad things have calmed down now. I can go to sleep.

Truthfully, I don't know how this thread has survived closing for so long. There are many positives to the German people and German culture, and it is sad that some people can't see beyond discriminatory stereotypes. That said, this thread does not really have anything to do with Ancient Mysteries or Alternative History, and the opening post reads more like a blog entry.

~ Closed ~