Updated:2007-03-15 12:58:03Furor Over Baptist's 'Gay Baby' Article
By DAVID CRARY
AP
NEW YORK (March 15) - The president of the leading Southern Baptist seminary has incurred sharp attacks from both the left and right by suggesting that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven, and that prenatal treatment to reverse gay orientation would be biblically justified.

The Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., one of the country's pre-eminent evangelical leaders, acknowledged that he irked many fellow conservatives with an article earlier this month saying scientific research "points to some level of biological causation" for homosexuality.

Proof of a biological basis would challenge the belief of many conservative Christians that homosexuality - which they view as sinful - is a matter of choice that can be overcome through prayer and counseling.

However, Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., was assailed even more harshly by gay-rights supporters. They were upset by his assertion that homosexuality would remain a sin even if it were biologically based, and by his support for possible medical treatment that could switch an unborn gay baby's sexual orientation to heterosexual.

"He's willing to play God," said Harry Knox, a spokesman on religious issues for the Human Rights Campaign, a national gay-rights group. "He's more than willing to let homophobia take over and be the determinant of how he responds to this issue, in spite of everything else he believes about not tinkering with the unborn."

Mohler said he was aware of the invective being directed at him on gay-rights blogs, where some participants have likened him to Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor notorious for death-camp experimentation.

"I wonder if people actually read what I wrote," Mohler said in a telephone interview. "But I wrote the article intending to start a conversation, and I think I've been successful at that."

Mohler began by summarizing some recent research into sexual orientation, and advising his Christian readership that they should brace for the possibility that a biological basis for homosexuality may be proven.

Mohler wrote that such proof would not alter the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality, but said the discovery would be "of great pastoral significance, allowing for a greater understanding of why certain persons struggle with these particular sexual temptations."

He also referred to a recent article in the pop-culture magazine Radar, which explored the possibility that sexual orientation could be detected in unborn babies and raised the question of whether parents - even liberals who support gay rights - might be open to trying future prenatal techniques that would reverse homosexuality.

Mohler said he would strongly oppose any move to encourage abortion or genetic manipulation of fetuses on grounds of sexual orientation, but he would endorse prenatal hormonal treatment - if such a technology were developed - to reverse homosexuality. He said this would no different, in moral terms, to using technology that would restore vision to a blind fetus.

"I realize this sounds very offensive to homosexuals, but it's the only way a Christian can look at it," Mohler said. "We should have no more problem with that than treating any medical problem."

Mohler's argument was endorsed by a prominent Roman Catholic thinker, the Rev. Joseph Fessio, provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Fla., and editor of Ignatius Press, Pope Benedict XVI 's U.S. publisher.

"Same-sex activity is considered disordered," Fessio said. "If there are ways of detecting diseases or disorders of children in the womb, and a way of treating them that respected the dignity of the child and mother, it would be a wonderful advancement of science."

Such logic dismayed Jennifer Chrisler of Family Pride, a group that supports gay and lesbian families.

"What bothers me is the hypocrisy," she said. "In one breath, they say the sanctity of an unborn life is unconditional, and in the next breath, it's OK to perform medical treatments on them because of their own moral convictions, not because there's anything wrong with the child."

Paul Myers, a biology professor at the University of Minnesota-Morris, wrote a detailed critique of Mohler's column, contending that there could be many genes contributing to sexual orientation and that medical attempts to alter it could be risky.

"If there are such genes, they will also contribute to other aspects of social and sexual interactions," Myers wrote. "Disentangling the nuances of preference from the whole damn problem of loving people might well be impossible."

Not all reaction to Mohler's article has been negative.

Dr. Jack Drescher, a New York City psychiatrist critical of those who consider homosexuality a disorder, commended Mohler's openness to the prospect that it is biologically based.

"This represents a major shift," Drescher said. "This is a man who actually has an open mind, who is struggling to reconcile his religious beliefs with facts that contradict it."

That's ridiculous. Homosexuality IS a genetic trait andit can't be altered. It's not a sin to be what you are, and the text which supposedly deals with homosexuality is a reference to sodomy, not the relationship itself. Maybe all those 'good hetrosexual Christians' who practice sodomy should be thinking about that one.

Its really sick and sad for these baptists to think they can do this to an unborn child wtf??

Wanna know the irony in all of this...?

They see it as sinful...right?? And yet believe there is medical treatment that may well reverse what it is in the hormones that makes them gay...right?? so the irony is they dont see that they actually believe that its a condiction through NO FAULT of the child...but yet slam the SIN term on them at the same time...talk about backward and ignorant??


Every time I read about baptist leaders I always feel a sick knot in my stomach...calling it fundisyndrome


However - there where news reports of scientists that do believe they can come up with a drug that may reverse someones sexuality

Part of me see's this as pure ignorance....and part of me thinks that there are gays that may not be happy with their sexuality (but very few...due to religious views on to them)

I hate anyone that slams gays and tries to say they make a choice

Why not come up with an anti-hate for all kinds drug...and feed it to the fundys that make such statements


Something tells me that some of these baptists leaders...have gay kids LOL and are too ashamed to admit it so will do anything to find a cure...ha I pray all of those that are against gays will ALL have gays in their family in the future..ohh boy I so will pray for this

The good news is that they are making some headway in acknowledging that homosexuality has genetic causes.



The bad news is that people with primitive concepts of what is right and wrong, are still in a position to dictate moral actions.

I dont mean to get off topic but this song is the coolest emo song I have ever heard:

Spaced out and dark.

What a complete waste of link space. It's unfortunate this is already a target for OT trolling.

Can you explain?

Did you watch the video?

The video is abit gayish so it isnt completely off track.

By your own admission, it is off topic.

And, by applying your own definition of "gayish" to the video, could be construed as being a negative conotation to homosexuality in general.

It adds nothing to the topic at hand, and only serves to derail what is sure to be a contraversial topic.

Its bad enough that there will soon be cries of "homosexuality is wrong cus the bible dun told me so", and comparisons of homosexuality and pedophilia as well as ignorant statements such as "well Homosexuality is wrong because if the whole world went gay......"


So, if you have nothing constructive to add, why not add nothing.

meant gayish as in "happy" I couldn't care less......As far as Im concerned gays cut down the field for guys like me.

If its negative against gays...I dont wish to see it

if you cant say anything that contributes...like JMPD says...dont say anything at all...there are more than enough people out there that show ignorance ..we dont need to read it in here

Jesus Christ!@! How much does everyone whinge! Dont be sooooo serious dudes.

Brave New World, if you're not going to contribute anything useful to the topic then there's little point posting. That video has absolutely nothing to do with this topic whatsoever.

Please stop derailing threads with silly nonsense.

In all fairness brave, I for one am well known to kid around on these boards...but im serious when it comes to certain issues such as this....sorry mate!!

Then, given that, is it possible that a moderator would remove the link?

On every other gay thread I have posted on I have stuck up for them with a fiery passion. Just ask Paranoid android. Homosexuality shouldn't even be an issue. We make such a taboo of it by being so serious about it. My cousin is gay and we get along great. Bring on the straight jokes, I wont be offended.

But as far as I know I have used the greatest and articulate logic to prove to homophobes that homosexuality is a natural thing and they still refused to even take into consideration the possibility.

The more you try and change them the more they stay the same.

I stick up for them, because they havent done me any harm..I must admit I did used to fear them...I once fell out with my old best friend because I figured she was coming on to me and I didnt like it....but as years passed i get ot learn more about them...and now I am more understanding

The link has been removed, lets get this thread back on-topic or there won't be any point leaving it open.

Absolutely, for a prominent leader of the Baptist religion to come out (no pun intended) and agree with what the gay & lesbian communities, have been saying for years--that their sexuality is not a choice, I think is a major step into the 21st century. It's a small victory, but baby steps are normally what pave the way towards change.

That unfortunately is something that will never change. Even if one faction of Christianity accepted this belief, others wouldn't. I could see it leading to more breaks from various religions. The ultra conservative I feel wouldn't accept this even if the worlds most brilliant scientists proved it to be so. Or as Rev. Mohler
said: "Mohler said he would strongly oppose any move to encourage abortion or genetic manipulation of fetuses on grounds of sexual orientation, but he would endorse prenatal hormonal treatment - if such a technology were developed - to reverse homosexuality. He said this would no different, in moral terms, to using technology that would restore vision to a blind fetus." Can you suddenly see the church now allowing abortion under those conditions? Or placing 'blame' on parents that don't agree to genetic manipulation?
Beckys_Mom made a point

I don't know if it's that gay people are unhappy with their sexuality, I think it's more they are unhappy (the ones that are) or tormented by the fact that in society's eyes, in the eyes of the church, they are viewed as sick or perverted. Having wild orgies, dancing around fires men dressed in feather boas, women in army boots. The media helps to feed into this, and the conservatives fuel the flame of hatred and bigotry.
I for one see the saddest part of this whole thing as a way for some nutters to step in & start offering ignorant parents help, 'in the name of God & science'.

Never feared them to begin with. Was always brought up to believe that what someone does in the bedroom is their buisness and doesnt make them a bad person. Also the fact that thousands of animals in the natural world have homosexual behaviour shows that it is natural. And also Christianity as I have been brought up isnt incompatible with the Gospels. Jesus doesn;t judge and loved all unconditionally. In fact he himself could have been gay (all of his disciples were blokes). Who knows and who cares.

I didnt fear them because of what they did with their partners behind closed doors...I feared one coming on to me...I didnt quite understand them ...I couldnt get my head around it all...I usedto think that a lesbian would fancy anything in a skirt...but later found out I was so so wrong...that they have standards just like us that are straight....

See this is exactly right...If whoever wrote in the bible that homosexuality was wrong and sinful...had a clear understanding as we do today (well most of us with brians)...then it would never have been written in the bible...therefore the ones that torment gays saying they will burn in hell for their sins...wouldnt think aoong those lines...would they??

Someone once wrote...its ok for them to be gay..as long as they dont do gay actions lol and act apon their urges...<--I thought that had to be one of the silliest things read on here...how can one prevent his sexual urges is beyond me...gay or not gay...if you are a man...you have NEEDS..you will find it hard to control your urges...thats a fact...especially if you have a long term partner to be with...come on..LOL

I'd like to see a gay person tel me...its a sin to be straight...but im ok with you being straight...as long as you dont act on your urges with a man ha ha ha sound silly??? no sillier than the other statement

Well my best friend for years was gay and she never tried to come on to me nor did I have a fear she would we even used to joke around a bit with other people where we'd pretend we were girlfriends. Did it scare me? NO. I actually feel more comfotrable with gay friends (I've had male gay friends too) than straight people half the time. My mother hung out with gays and lesbians when she was a teenager in her disco days, men who had sex changes and became women and all the sh** they went through so I was brought up to not discriminate.

And because they were familiar to you Ash, you had no fear of them.

It is in our human nature to fear what we do not understand, or are unfamiliar with. We tend to rely on what others tell us in this regard. If, for instance, one were to grow up in a homogenous society ( all white, all the same religious denomination for example) without exposure to other ethnic groups you would tend to rely on the testimony of those who "knew".

But, once one is exposed to a different culture or way of life, it becomes less strange to one, and more acceptable. And one is able to see how fear has coloured the opinions of those who "know", but do not know.

You sir are one of the smartest men i know...its always a pleasure to read your posts....

You are so understanding..its awsome

Now enough of praising Joey lol

Yes I agree we fear what we don't understand...I admire you Ashley for feeling confortable around gay friends...I on the other had didnt at one stage...I couldnt do it...I once slapped my friend Mary accross the face for kissing me on the mouth...she was very touchy feely with me....we once went the whole way to Galway..for a drinking session lol...and she demanded to share a room with me...so I said ok...I awoke next morning to find her wrapped around me...it freaked me out...I lost it completely with rage......I feel bad now yes...but the whole time I thought she was like me and out to look for guys LOL...........bugger !!!

Should I feel ashamed for fearing gays?? I dunno maybe I should...but at the time I thought it was a choice and i thought they all fancied anyone of the same sex....i was so wrong...and from that I took an intrest in their lives and learn so much about them

Would I at present kiss a girl on the mouth with passion??? ....Answer is NO...I wouldnt...I cant do it...but that dont mean I am against them doing it with others who are gay....

If there was anyone here that stands up for gay rights is ME...

What goes around...........sure does come around....it happened to ME...it could happen to anyone

If this does not go beyond the moronic, I don't know what does! If true--and it is (just read the scientific literature)--then god deliberately creates and condemns a certain percentage of his own creation! Very nice!

I will give this nutter points for admitting that homosexuality is genetic--that your brain is hardwired for a particular sex whilst still in the womb. It's unusual that a Literalist would even consider such a possibility.



Well said!

Sean

Well, I think that he is accepting of the genetic documentation, ONLY because he believes there is a way to "cure" it. Note though, that he still classifies homosexuality as a "sinful temptation".

All I can say is thank god blue eyes aren't considered a sin, elsewise they would try and 'cure' me too.

Yeah pretty much, but I was raised pretty liberal all round. My Mum would have the 'don't discriminate' (against anyone based on race color whatever) talks with before I was even in school.

Thank goodness breaking wind is not a sin LOL if it where I guess they would bung us up LMAO

I'm always amazed when someone says homosexuality isn't genetic. Because the one's saying that are almost always straight. And when they say gay is a choice, they're saying so is being straight. But tell them that and they'll balk and say, "Oh no! That's not true." If nothing else ministers like this that are taken public for such declarations of ignorance, lend an example of what not to embrace if you want to call yourself a decent christian.

Remember the crusades? Churchmen slaughtering people because god approves. There's something very dangerous about anyone that thinks their god says you don't deserve to live. And that's what these kind of ministers teachings are saying, even on the biological level. Pray and ask god to make you acceptable in the eyes of the christian public, because you were born gay and that's simply not acceptable.

Don't try to talk science to Christians, they don't listen.

You can't help it if you are gay. It's just the way it is. Get used to it (I am not gay, lol).

In the spirit of equality. You can't help it if you are straight. It's just the way it is. Get used to it (I am not straight, lol).

Touche, lol.

I think ironic describes this best. What if the only way to treat "gay" fetus' is with embryonic stem cells? Bummage! Guess your stuck with a poofer baby-boy!

(tongue-in-cheek people, don't flame me!)

Oh booooo! You said it before I got a chance to! Dangnabit! hahaha

Trust me, if my child were biologically gay, I think treating them for it would be the LAST thing I'd do. And how do you tell if it's a lifestyle choice or a biological issue? I have 3 female friends who will argue with you to the nth degree that their choice to be in a life long relationship with another woman is NOT biological, but indeed a choice--they will also argue with you if you try to call them bi-sexual, they are not (an lord have mercy if you suggest it! haha). Others I know do believe it's biological (a vast majority do) ... I don't think there's any clear evidence one way or another and why treat something that isn't an illness? I sure as heck wouldn't.

Imagine if we lived in a world, where being straight was seen as NOT normal....and religion was run by gays..and they looked down on those of us that are straight, telling us we must ask the gay lord (lol this works on both levels)....up in the clouds, to forgive us, we know not what we do LOL

Look silly to you?? if so its just the same with those that do this to gays


ha ha

I don't think that it is always genetic. I think some people do just make a choice.

Either way, genetics or choice, it doesn't matter...we shouldn't be trying to change people.

I'd rather be who I am and go to hell then be who I'm not and go to heaven.

Geri, if I was a lesbian, I'd come on to you ......You're quite the hottie.....

We should expect such moronic and absurd comments by those 'types' by now .....It's all science fiction stuff anyway.....

I think they purposely make these sort of statements to falsely show to young christian gay people, that the Church finally 'understands' them and will endeavour to play 'God', so in future nobody has to endure the awful reality of being gay and christian.......

*color drains from face* *gulps* LMAO just kidding

thanks I take that as a compliment...and if you where a lessie, and came on to me..id just say..thanks im flattered, but no thanks i only swing with one bat...lets just be friends

Indeed! Well said Cadetak 47. Does it ever make you wonder if god is perfect how it could ever create the human consciousness that would make the choice to become something god damns as an abomination!? It's like the scriptural P.S. for bigot 101: " Hi, I'm god and I enjoy creating something that I can hate! Do me a favor, kill it and I'll wuv you best. " Given all the evil god inspires in the bible, kinda makes one wonder, if satan is the antithesis of that, then he can't be that bad. I've never read a scripture wherein satan ordains his chosen people to invade tribes, slaughter the men and boys and rape the women and pubescent girls, so the offensive armies can procreate their seed and make more of themselves, to slaughter more people. Ah, but I know. It's all a matter of context. Because context is the pretext that claims genocide is ok.

That's what I think is so sad & leads to so much homophobic rubbish. Many people do see it as a mental illness, or a depraved lifestyle choice brought about by some horrid thing that happened in the child's youth--molestation, sexual abuse, neglect. And there are millions out there that think all gay people are trying to "turn them" like it's some kind of club! Can you just see the posters for recruitment--'For every 10th person you bring in, you get a free gift'.
During the Nazi regime in Germany, Himmler attempted to "cure" gays by requiring them to visit the camp brothels.
During apartheid in South Africa, gays and lesbians were considered deviants. They were sent to a special ward of a military hospital to be "rehabilitated." This involved electric shock treatments and chemical castration. Those who could not be "cured" were given sex-change operations. A number of "patients" died.
Scientists, Doctors, have used lobotomies, castration, drug therapy among other "treatments", all to help change these deviant sinners. As long as the conservative groups are out there shouting their nonsense, their followers will listen, quote the bible & believe that they are trying to 'save' these souls. Too bad they give no thought to the spirits they are breaking.

It's that kind of sarcasm that leaves so many people drained GW. I see your point, but why couch it in so much vile negativity? Why hate history? It's like implying all white people are evil because white people once enslaved non-white people. So the Crusades were messed up (the Children's Crusade was the most horrid I think), how long are you going to hold that against organized religion? Please don't get in a lather, I actually see your point. Your presentation is so angry sometimes though. The arm-chair therapist in me wants to refer you to a good counselor somewhere. That much anger can't be healthy.

I think some of the comments about the "church" attempting to get hip and sway people or groups in some manner may indeed be accurate. I'm sure when the "church" finally had to acknowledge the earth was round, they had to do a little dance too.

I'd think it's awsome to have a child who was gay.

And to edit in..

They're hipocrites. Pure and symple.

These people were screaming and crying because useing this technology to make sure people were treated with things that can't be normaly... because it's "Playing god".

Now they want to /use/ this technology to try and make sure the fetuses grow up to be straight.

Isn't that playing god? Well not in their eyes, yeah... but the logic faerie seems be asleep at the job with this.

uh... did i miss something? when did this issue move from the realm of opinion to scientific fact? last time i checked NO scientist had discovered a gay gene.... so since when did it become genetic?

can someone provide a link to the proof of this? i don't want someone's opinion... but a link to proof would be nice...

i'm almost sure it's NOT genetic because babies don't have a sexual preference...

Really ??

tell me, what is it that makes a person gay?? a choice??

be sure to let me know thanks

Saying that it's not genetics because a baby/child has no sexual preference is like saying that they chose to be allergic to.. oh say... raisins as an adult because they had no allergies as a child.

Actually they have found plenty of evidence that homosexuality is genetic and chemical.

Well you see, arm chair therapy isn't really the point now is it!? Unless of course it's to address the school of thought like that which is reported in the OP. You see, the inquisition and the burning times weren't just a horrific abdication of human decency, in the name of god. It was a terroristic materialist inspired extermination of anyone not deemed fit to live, by the authority that disguised itself in righteousness and executed sentence for it's own personal gain and empowerment. So while the bloody era of past centuries may be over, the spirit that bolstered the campaigns to life, is alive and well and grabbing headlines. As it boldly proclaims it isn't shy about communicating a contemporary message that says the same today as it did centuries ago. That this is one nation under one god!

And in order to make people believe that one has to set out a campaign that tells people so! And that's what is present in this OP article. It's what is present in other threads that describe extremists spray painting buses, it's what beheads Americans as infidels, it's what sets fire to the world in the name of the right to reign supreme over all thought to the contrary, and as long as that even whispers it's presence in this contemporary age, it's incumbent on people to recollect it's tenor, so as to insure their part in derailing that old adage: Those that don't learn from their history are condemned to repeat it.