The fish also lives in this world, and so does man, does the fish know about mans existence?

When I was talking about another dimensional existence, I was not saying that God lives in a different dimension. We live in a four dimensional world but we can also percieve a two domensional world. If God lived in the fifth dimensional plane, he would be able to percieve and manipulate the 4 dimensions at will. but those in the 4th dimensional plane could not, even if they tried, see that happining.

This is clumsily explained, but if you study up on interdimensional physics, especially as concerning wormholes, you'll get the picture.

Yes, except that there are Christians (more than you think) that out and out reject dogma and view doctorine as inconsequential. We are not Atheists nor are we spiritualists. We are Christians.



Wrong again, as a devote and involved Christian, I support the right for gays to marry, and 98% of my sect will agree with me. So I guess it's not that unanimous is it? Remember, not all Christians follow the bible word for word. You're using a very very broad paintbrush KBA, and there thousands upon thousands of Christians out there that find that very irritating.



Yep, and there are a number of Christians that view the Bible as a historical document, a document that is a tool not a rule... As an Atheist, I would think that fact would help you be a more comfortable and a little less judgemental.

There's one problem with that. If God is bound to a realm that was impossible for humans to percieve.. then that would invalidate every religion to date, because God could not have inspired any of them.. and if God can choose to interact with the human dimensions.. well, why is there no proof of it, only testimony? Why would a god work indirectly, even when he wanted people to believe in his existence?

Well, because people can imagine God talking to them.

Yeah, that's great.. but I don't understand why in the world you would want to call yourself Christian. You don't want to associate with the fundy Christians.. even though they are the ones who actually do what the Bible says to do.. the Bible being the source of Christianity, which is your religion...

That doesn't make any sense. If you just want to believe in a God, why not be an agnostic or a deist? Exactly what makes you Christian, I guess is what I'm trying to say.. you reject the Bible as fact and consider it literature.. and the Bible is what created Christianity, so help me out here, again.. what exactly makes you Christian? The Bible itself, the authority on Christianity, says you are not very Christian.

Jorel thanks for sharing this, although it reads nothing more to me than a physchic experinces , i have had many of these myself esepcailly around the phase i beleived in metaphysics....as do many others ...and if this is god for you arer free to believe as you choose..to....it seems for you this constuct helped you..all the best to you....

Sure, there are many things that I guess you could call basic tenets, although it seems that more and more even the basics are not universally held. You can't really use the fact that the Bible is universal to Christianity because the Bible is just a book and it seems that the more time goes by, the more people pick and choose only those things that agree with what they already want to believe, and yet still call themselves Christian. So, our situation may be more similar than you'd like to think. You're an Atheist, but you don't agree with the "general" or "accepted" definition of Atheist, but you still consider yourself an Atheist. How I define Christianity has similarities with the accepted definition of Christianity, but I believe I live Christianity differently from how the majority of those who consider themselves Christians do, but yet, I get packaged in with them because I use the same word they use: Christian.

Yes, I read the records at my leisure. Everything from blood tests to medication reciepts, followed by further blood tests and a clean bill of health, it was truly unbelievable, even for me. I was supposed to be used to this from God, or at the very least, know that God did these things. It was still quite a shock to actually see it happen.

It left a permanent stamp in my mind, as to Gods power.

Well, I hope you can understand my doubt but.. to me if this had really happened, I would have expected to see it all over the news..

It was, at least here in portugal, oh by the way this was in 1993 not 95 as I previously stated, I was still in Seminary back then

Well, I see where you're coming from, although I stress that atheist is simply a status marker, meaning I do not believe in God, it doesn't come packaged with anything at all.. I personally don't consider myself an "atheist", I don't consider myself anything religiously, because I have no religious beliefs, but the world has to have a term for everything, so, for debate purposes, since it fits my views, at least the basic definitions of it do.. I am an atheist.

The real difference is that Christianity has a guidebook. The Bible is the source of and authority over Christianity. If someone says they are a Christian, then I know they must agree to some extent (and realistically, to the full extent, since it is written as a complete guidebook on the life of a Christian..) with the Bible, because that is what defines their religion. So I can look in the Bible, and get an idea of what they believe. To me, many "Christians" are really just theists in general who chose the most popular religion and decided to call themselves that.

Well if it was that popular.. certainly there is an article or reference to it somewhere online? Again, it seems like all these miracles happen conveniently without proof.. not meant as an insult or anything, I'm simply saying that there are a lot of claims of things like this happening, but never with any obvious proof.

You see, the problem with that, is we usually want to experience something 1st hand. When God intervenes in the human dimension he does it through and to people. The testimony you hear is a recounting of that experience, but we all want to experience it so that those testomonies become believable and not just a recounting of something we can't personally relate to.

I personally think God works indirectly as a consequence of human decision, and not because it is his 1st choice. God allows mankind an absolute choice, to believe or not believe.

While I agree with the general sentiment that God did in fact create everything in our world, including evil, I disagree with this particular passage as proof of that. The context shows that "calamaty", or "disaster" would be a better translation. It is just as acceptable for a translation, and when you see the opposites that are being used int his verse - creating light and darkness, for example - it seems more appropriate to translate as the opposite of peace - distress, animosity, calamaty, insert your adjective of choice. Evil doesn't fit here so well.

The Tanakh you quoted is also just an English translation remember. As with most things, if in doubt go back to the original language with (at the very least) a dictionary of Hebrew terms to help you. That ensures a better understanding of the text, rather than relying on the interpretation that a translator chose to use.

Regards, PA

how so son.......I have conversed with you on many occasson i see a very similar awareness...i feel maybe more strict than others and more by the book..can you enlighten me as to what I have overlooked....I'm not trying to be snarky ...so don't get offended...

I could try to find something on this if you're interested?

all this from a guy who a few posts back or another thread was very clearly stating how one couldn't possilby know god he is beyond human dimensions..
also we create for ourselves what we beleive and have expereinces that reflect these beleifs.....many many chritians beleive that god passes messages from one seleceted follower to another .... this is the most often answer when i ask who is god to you???No surprise its biblical in nature....Are you a preacher too ....

Yep i sure have my friend and thanks for asking .....But let me ask you this. Have you ever considered that alot of times when someone says there is a contradiction they are trying to flop just any meaning of a word without careful analysis and it forms a problem with the whole verse??...Im glad you mentioned contradiction my friend. I wanted to mention something along the lines of contradiction. John Mcray a very very well known archeologist said this in an interview with Lee Strobel when they were discussing that the gospel of Luke says that Jesus was walking INTO Jericho when he healed the blind man Bartimaeus, while Mark says he was coming OUT of Jericho". "Isnt this a clear-cut contradiction that casts doubt on the reliability of the New Testament?"..said Strobel. Mcray wasnt stung by the directness of my question. "Not at all", came his response. "It only appears to be a contradiction because your thinking in contemporary terms, in which cities are built and stay put. But that wasnt necessarily the case long ago.". "Jericho was in at least four different locations as much as a quarter of a mile apart in ancient times. The city was destroyed and resettled near another water supply or a new road or nearer a mountain or whatever. The point is, you can be coming out of one site where Jericho existed and be going into another one, like moving from one part of suburban Chicago to another part of suburban Chicago". This seems to bring down the debate a little bit I believe and thanks to archeology we now have a clearer picture instead of a great contradiction. Not only can someone twist the text, but they can also think using todays terms and concepts, which is different than in the days of Christ. Lets try another contradiction dealing with archaelogy. Strobell went on to mention "I wondered what scientists would have to say about John, whose gospel was sometimes considered suspect because he talked about locations that couldnt be verified. Some scholars charged that since he failed to get these basic details straight, John must not have been close to the events of Jesus' life.

"That conclusion, however, has been turned upside down in recent years." "There have been several discoveries that have shown John to be very accurate", McRay pointed out. "For example, John 5:1-15 records how Jesus healed an invalid by the Pool of Bethesda. John provides the detail that the pool had five porticoes. For a long time people cited this as an example of John being inaccurate, because no such place had been found. "But more recently the Pool of Bethesda has been excavated----It lies maybe forty feet below ground---and sure enough, there were 5 porticos, which means colonnaded porches or walkways, exactly as John described. And you have other discoveries---The pool of Siloam from John 9:7, Jacob's Well from John 4:12, the probable location of the Stone pavement near the Jaffa Gate where Jesus appeared before Pilate in John 19:13, even Pilates own identity----all of which have lent historical credibility to Johns gospel". "So this challenges the allegation that the gospel of John was written so long after Jesus that it cant be possibly accurate," I said. "Most definitely," he replied.

These are just some of the reasons why I believe the bible is true and that is because of its accuracy and attention to detail. Scholars have located many things that have only increased the bibles accuracy. This is one of the reasons I believe Jesus rose from the dead. The gospels being accurate also state that many witnesses seen Jesus after he was dead(and risen--edited typo). Now does that mean there are no more so called "contradictions" in the bible??....nope but time only shows more proof of the bible and it definitely gives the bible more credit for its accuracy and what weve seen so far. As Mcray says "Archaeology has not produced anything that is unequivocally a contradiction to the Bible."...."On the contrary, as we've seen, there have been many opinions of skeptical scholars that have become codified into "fact" over the years but that archaeology has shown to be wrong"

Well KBA (I'm ticked, I wrote this post out then accidentally hit the backbutton on my laptop ... grrrrrrr)

You asked why I would call myself a Christian. That's easy, we believe that Christ is the son of God and believe devotely in the message and teaching of Christ. If you have to assign something in the Bible specifically to our belief and practice, The Gospel of John has frequently been called "the Quakers Gospel" it does the best job of explaining some of our beliefs, if you are going to use the Bible to find that meaning. We have a personal relationship with Christ (we are largely Trinitarians) and the Word of God comes from the Light Within and not from the Bible. The Bible becomes a tool rather than the rule or law.

Truly, you were right to ask the question and I am grateful you did. Historically speaking, Quakers were persecuted by the Puritans and in fact executed for their beliefs in both England and in the USA in the 1600's and 1700's. Part of the reason we enjoy separation of church and state in the USA today is because of the Quaker persecutions. We believe in total equality for ALL people, non-violence at all costs, environmental responsibility, education, and much more. We believe our practice is more in line with the original concept of Christianity.

Why aren't there more Quakers? That might be a good question too. Mainly I've always thought that our lifestyle is a little hard for some people to absorb. We believe in ultimate Simplicity... a good Quaker never owns more than he or she needs, avoids all debt, and must be commited to the idea of non-violent activism for all our beliefs. We also expect a substancial involvement in charity work.

There are also no churches (only meetings) and no formal leaders (but a few organizers) within the Quaker faith. Every memeber is a minister and may act as such. Many people find this very strange and can't fathom how we can wander about leaderless. All Quaker desicions are arrived at in business meetings associated with each Meeting House. We come to conclusions based on agreement by all. This might be one of our failings.... Think Tolkein, Tree Ents.

I hope that clears it up a little.

Well, Sheri, to me what is important about being a Christian is the personal relationship with God, not some set of rules developed by someone trying to be good enough to reach God on their own. I don't see the Bible as a collection of rules that have to be followed perfectly, I see it as God's message to man. His way of showing us that there is nothing we can do to reach Him, that He was the only one who could reach out to us. The majority of Christians don't really see it that way, they want to be good enough, they want to prove they're good enough, that they do deserve to be with God, never really paying attention to what He's really trying to get them to see.

Very good PA. Though I can see where you are coming from that God created everything I do have to look at it this way though. According to Gods word He (God) is good, perfect, without blemish. Now the opposite of that is Evil. When Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for wanting to be like the Most High his rebellion was what caused it. He chose to take on the opposite of Gods plan. The opposite of Good is indeed evil which is not of God but clearly defines satan. Most things related to this have their opposites, the opposite of left is right, up is down, good is evil, etc. That being said evil appears to be the opposite of God which is good. Doesnt mean that he created Evil just means there is an opposite of Good. Now this is my belief on the subject but that doesnt mean im right.

Also...this is kind of off the subject i guess but anyway....

Satan rebelled in heaven by stating that he will become like the most high God. He chose the opposite of Gods plan, He rejected Good. People like to attribute the christian God to be the reason why we have all these disasters but clearly miss the fact that the Bible says that Satan is the ruler of the world. He has temporary dominion over this world until Christ returns to rule and reign. What frustrates me is that when people choose not to believe the God of the bible but at the same time when they have a bone to pick with Him about death and suffering they include pieces of the bible to match their complaint and what they want to hear but refute the fact that it is not the whole truth of the bible (in other words they add and omit to go along with their belief or non belief systems). Satan is the opposite of Good, satan is the ruler of the world TEMPORARILY so wouldnt that make it clearer to see that all the suffering isnt necessarily coming from God himself but from the very opposite of Him which is satan, the ruler of the earth!?!....now this only applies to those that have a bone to pick with the christian God

*end rant*

edited for boo-boos

how interesting, but I'm alittle confused if the personal relationship with god is the most imporant thing why do you call yourself a christain an adhere to the rules, especially raising your kids and what not???? Doesn't god talk to you directly now???? Doesn't this god guide you himself???Whenone says personal relationship thats what i assume, sort of like best friends, looking out for your best interests..

Well, because the only way I get to have the personal relationship with God is by accepting my sin status and accepting Christ's sacrifice for my sin. I'm not sure which "rules" you're talking about, Sheri. Do you mean resisting sin?

No son, haven't you already excepted your sinful state???years back and Christs sacrafice also ??? If i may I would say you have been very clear on these two points, so now after this you have a one on one with god???? Also you said you don't follow the rules or bible but it sounds as if you are , unless I've misunderstood....Unless you mean you are focusing on cultivating a relationship with god??? let me clarify that we are on the same page..Becasue when you say relationship with god I'm thinkinga unconditonal loving realtionship of two equals and this deity helps you,, serves you , gives you guidance answers all your prayers makes life as joyous as he can for you , lifts you when you are down..... inspires you to greater heights, helps you to be tolerant and forgiving and understanding and helps you understand folks as me helps you to see how my intentions are well meaning, explains to you all paths lead to god so not to put your effort into worrying about others, because has it covered...... etc etc...

Those are really good questions Sheri.

I can't answer for IamsSon--nor would I dare, because I'd be wrong.

I can answer for myself though. What I've found, and why I'm a believer is because of that personal relationship with God. Yes, I believe that God sends his message to me--my denomination's practice of receiving these messages is unique in Christianity--I believe that there is guidance in the Bible. If I had to explain it, I'd say the Bible is like the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. The basic belief is there and so are the basic rules/laws. In those basic rules and beliefs are a lot of stories that give examples on what it is to live as a Christian. This is largely based on the teachings of Christ and the observations of the Apostles in the New Testament. In my belief, I don't care if the Bible is inerrant or not, and I'm not really a believer in closed canons either. I question many of the opinions set forth in the Bible on some level because my personal experience with the Word of God tells me something slightly different than what the Bible says and that's ok. My own practice is one of great responsibility because the Word from Within is open to interpretion by the individual. So all people that practice as Quakers have to constantly question their motives and beliefs because there is no one to tell us if we are right or wrong.

We call ourselves Christians because we do believe that Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins. Simple.

thanks miss wells i appreciate your input too, i see so wehn one says they have a personal relationship with god its through the bible , am I understanding this???

In my case, yes, but the personal relationship is far more important than the Bible. I am not a theologian, frankly, half the time I'm looking for something in the Bible I can't find it. Now, that's not to say all Quakers are like me, they aren't. Some are amazing Biblical scholars, and have an intense interest in what is in the Bible and understand it far better than I do. I use those people as resources when I have a question about my own messages and relationship. They are in effect informal peer counselors who can offer information, suggestions and guidance. It's not infrequent for me to seek out more than one opinion. Whatever helps me draw my end or come closer to that conclusion. It's ever evolving.

It's sort of like our Constitution as Americans is very important to us... without it, we're not really Americans. Same goes for the Bible, without it we're not really Christians. As an American, I question the real meaning of the Constitution all the time. As a Christian, I question the Bible all the time too.

Does that kind of make sense?

I think he could be implying the rules of the Old testament which so many are still hung up on, such as not eating pork and planting your seeds in straight row to name a few. The law required sacrifice of an animal for atonement of sin. Christ was sent in place of the animal to die for every sin that would ever be committed. He fulfilled what the law couldnt. He even stated that its not what enters a man that defiles him (that used to be swine ) but it is what comes OUT of a man that defiles him, which is your words!. Even Jesus was against certain things of the old law of the OT. Now it is grace by which you are saved and not by works lest any man should boast. The law is no longer imputed because Christ payed the ultimate penalty of sin on the cross, which was the ultimate sacrifice. Christ died for ALL of our sins, which means that any sin that is committed from here on out has atonement for it because of what Jesus payed (that is if you are a christian). Does that mean just go out and SIN?...certainly not!. Grace is not a license to sin but is quick to forgive when a mistake is made. So how do you know you have made a mistake? and how do you know what RULES to follow, that is by listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised to all that will accept and ask and yes he speaks to believers but He ministers through their spirit. And this is the communion that you have between you and the Father, it is through His Holy Spirit, which is why you hear all these christians saying they have a personal relationship with Christ. I am a witness to what Iamson is describing. I had some really bad addictions (not drug related) before I was saved in 2003. God moved in my life and in one night every chain of addiction I had was broken. There was peace that overflowed me and people started to notice my character was changing drastically. I could tell the same thing myself but it was just strange as to how it happened. I cannot take credit for any of this and to say that I just broke addictions on my own over night is just rediculous. Christ has confirmed many things in my life through His word and that is all that matters to me. And you can read my testimony in my profile if u want the whole story, my hands are getting sore

Yes, Sheri, I have already accepted Christ, what I was trying to point out was why I consider myself a Christian, because I am a follower of Christ and have the personal relationship with God through Christ. I'm not sure what you mean by rules? I follow what Christ taught, I believe that the Bible contains a lot of great teaching on how to live a good life, whether you're a Christian or not, but some people seem to think that God expects Christians to keep all the rules laid out in the Old Testament, and I don't believe that. As to the personal relationship part, God and I are not equals, He's God, I'm His creation, He doesn't serve me, I serve Him, He does help me, gives me guidance, (He doesn't tell me everything because the relationship still includes a huge portion of faith, I trust Him even though I don't know what Hes going to do), He definitely inspires me, and gives me a peace and joy that has nothing to do with the circumstances I'm going through. He also has made it very clear there is only one way to Him, Sheri, as much as others may believe otherwise out of the best intentions.

I just saw Hairston's and Mels's posts and they are good explanations of what I was trying to say. I don't think we agree on some things completely, but we all believe Jesus to be God's Son (and actually God), and that we accept His sacrifice as propitiation for our sins.

I like IamsSon's description, it's very close to what I'd describe as well.

I am in no way God's equal, sometimes he is silent, others there is almost more information than I am able to deal with all at one time. But, when these things happen, I trust and accept that it's done for a reason, a reason that I may not understand at the time, but I have faith and trust that I will at some point. Sorting those messages out is absolutely imperative and never to be ignored and sometimes it takes a great deal of patience, sometimes it's joy like I've never thought possible, others times it's quite painful because it requires me to except that I've been a great big fathead or I've duped myself (man, I hate it when that happens!).

Sheri, you might find it interesting that the concept of Original Sin actually isn't a universally excepted belief among all Christians, many believe it yes, but there are others that discard it outright--or rather than Christ's persecution removed the taint of Original Sin. Separating out the OT and the NT is quite difficult, I understand it's difficult, I have a hard time doing it myself sometimes.

if god is not serving you and you arent' equals i am confused as to the nature of the relationship, and the not knowing what he will do, how does one cultivate trust if i may inquire???? I can undersatnd you can have faith but you couldn't have trust without feed back if you will, one becomes trustworthy based on their consistancy in behaviors..How is god earning and honoring your trust???How do you have a relationship through a daed guy, i don't mean to be offensive i jsut really am seeking to understand for many of us....

Can you gve me a little story of how your friend god inspires you??? Is god your friend ??? If I may ask if its not to personal??

note: on the god part is your freind question son its a question with the kindest of intention so don't get upset...

Well in that event why wouldn't you see yourself as at 'one' again with god as according to lore was how it was before the snake played Eve..., if i may ask, I would, if someone said they sacrafice themselves for me I'd take that as things have gone back to original status....I'm not relgious, and have outgorwn the god gig but I beleive myself to be at one and equal with all things including life, i see myself as integral and congruent to the whole not less than or greater than but a part as all of us great and small( meaning animals and bugs and such) Unless i misunderstand the sacrafice part.. ???

The nature of the relationship is one of love between an awesome all-powerful, all-knowing being and one of the individuals He created. The trustworthiness comes from the fact that He always takes care of me, from the fact that I can look back on my life and see clearly where He has always provided for me and been there with me and for me.



Well, for one, He's not dead, and He's not just a guy. Jesus is God. He is the physical form of God, and although He died for our sins, He also came back to life. We have a relationship through His sacrifice because it is what repaired the relationship we destroyed (each of us individually).


I see God more as my Father. Someone who I respect and love and who I know loves me and takes care of me.

if i amy how are you defining love it sounds like worship to me but i could be off....

I am a bit lost on the second part...Jesus isn't dead is what you are saying???

How do you know god has been with you, in the last post it seemed you werent' always sure of him??? that confuses me trust is based in surety of ones behaviors....Alos isn't it you who has taken care of you, you work and provide etc....

How do you share your disagreements if i may ask????

Well, because I can't see myself as God or equal to God. That would require that I have the meaning of life and the after-life and that I was omnipotent which I am not. I find it interesting that you say you "outgrew" God, I am exactly the opposite, I feel as though I grew up and realized that there was more within my heart than I thought, and that "more" was God.

In a social sense, in this life, I also see myself as part of a whole where inequallity runs rampant. It's part of my practice here on earth, as a member of the Human Whole to work to ensure equality, justice, and responsibility. So in that sense we agree. It's God's guidance that allows me to do that and helps me to see how important that Whole is. If God were not omnipotent, his guidance would be suspect, he'd be no better than me with all my faults--and I think we can all agree I have my faults. God through Christ does not have faults. I know you don't and will likely never hold that opinion.

I know you see IamsSon, Hairston and myself posting similar views and we all seem to agree with one another in some form or another, however, I should probably make it very clear that we do not agree on everything, but somehow, it seems like the end result is the same.

miss wells i do see you as much more liberal, and quite easy to talk with, you reallly answer my questions I appreciate that...

On what authority do you except that the bible god is omni this and that ??? how do you arrive at this conclusion??? you said "god would be suspect " otherwise waht is hte otherwise other than the bible or in relationship too...I appreciate your candor and i can see you have thought on this, how do you work this out, do you also use faith on this????Or are you more practical????

if i may why do you not see yourself as equal with god???? taking this to a parent analogy i assume you see yourself and your beautiful daughter as equals correct??? this is not to be snarky at all..Just trying to really understand.....

Maybe if I were to take this to a very simplistic view.... it's not unlike parenting (but it's still very different as well)

I see my daughter and I as equal in the respect that we are both human and we both deserve respect as humans.

What we are not equal in is experience. Even she still needs my guidance occasionally. I still need my own mother's guidance on occasion. In that respect, our experience levels are not equal. As humans we are equal, but as far as experience goes we are not. She is also not my equal in maturity for obvious reasons, she's 19, I'm 40.

God is not human. So there's a difference of equality right there. God is omnipotent, difference of equality, God has a whole heck of a lot more experience than I do.

I belive in a purely benevolent God--one of vast goodness, wisdom and experience--something that I do not possess, therefore I cannot be equal to it. My knowledge of this comes though my personal relationship with God, not the Bible.

I actually failed to answer you question about the God of the Bible. Remember, my faith does not require me to believe in Biblical inerrancy. So, the God of the Bible is how other people experienced God in their personal relationship. And let's face it, the Bible has changed over the years through translation, through politcal movements and other societal pressures. That doesn't make it less valuble or worthless though. An analogy might be that over the years, we have added to and changed the US Constitution, that doesn't make it worthless, but it's still open to interpretion of lawyers and judges...

More liberal? hahah, I feel like I'm the definition of Liberal. Religiously and politically.

you sound diest sort of?? i agree certainly experince differs but does that change ones equality , is the boy who can reach the door knob better than his little brother that can't , or is the little girl who reads before her sister somehow much wiser, IMO no the little ones will read and the little brother will reach the door knob, what is shown is what they are even though they don't have the experince of it as of yet...You see why I question this god as omni and all knowing...Staying with the parent analogy as a momma did you ever tell your daughter when she looked up at you in womder, "sweetie you will be so much greater than me" didn't you just wish that for her Miss wells??? Boy I sure do and will take great delight in my kids far surpassing me ,I want them to...i feel this god is limiting and uninspiring not optimistic am i misinterpreting ?? does this make sense to you???

No, I'm definitely not a deist. I believe in the God of the Bible. I believe that Christ was the embodiment of God and that he came to earth to establish his New Covenant. There is no question that I am a Christian. People have a really hard time understanding that, and in fact, many of my denomination were persecuted because we did not fit the proper mold of what a Christian is. Consequently, many were executed for being an Apostacy or strung up for herasy (a few were even burned as witches). No, I am Christian, the rest of the world eventually figured out that Quakers are Christians as well and then had to endure another century of social reform (Quakers were actually the roots of the Underground Railroad, as well as other social firsts including Women's Rights, equality for Native Americans, and fair trade practices... Quakers have never participated in the barter system and championed the concept of quality products for a fair price--we're social creatures who by definition deal in equality)

You are correct when you say that eventually little brother will reach the doorknob, that little sister will eventually read... but at the same time, the elder does not stop reaching their goals and aquiring new information and life experience. You never stop growing and learning. So in essentially, my daughter will never be my equal in experience until I am dead.

Hmmm...did I ever look at her and tell her she would be greater or better than me? I guess not directly. What I always told her was that it was her job to find what made her happy and persue all her dreams and interests always. My mother was the one who told me that she wanted me to be better than her that she wanted me to surpass her. That was a tall order, and had very little to do with my own happiness when I tried to put it into practice.

I guess it's at this point this entire conversation starts to get really esoteric and isn't easily put into words that make a ton of sense. It becomes emotional and open to interpretation (there's that word again haha).

Did this list come from some other site in a more comprehensive form? As I read it, i thought it had been constucted from some of the people, concepts, and comments made recently on this, and related, threads from this site. Very funny and very pertinent. Could be seen as offensive if related to individuals, but even then the humour of it is a good defence. Certainly generated a lot of responses in a short time.

This thread has definately gone off track. No question there.

I guess the original question was "Can Atheists be Fundamentalist"

I decided they can.

All good points, hairston. I think our difference is that I see God having more control over his creation than you do. Satan "rebelled" only so far as God allowed him to rebel. God in fact created Satan for the purpose of being the "accusing angel" or prosecutor for mankind. Thus God did create the concept of good and evil and allowed evil to exist.

Not that it's a wildly important matter though. My life-application of the teachings of the Bible would not change at all were I to change my view in this respect. I guess we'll find out one day.


That's exactly what IamsSon is saying. Jesus is not dead. He rose to life, ascended to heaven. Jesus lives. Jesus lives and rules this world with God. You think Christians are so passionate about their faith because they preach about a dead dude? Be lost no longer, Sheri. Jesus is not dead. *of course, if you don't believe the Bible then this entire explanation won't mean squat, but this is the Christian point of view*

Just reading through the posts when this one jumped out. It sounds so grounded and well, logical, but (and i think we may have had this discussion before) in fact it is incorrect if applied universally.

When real evidence of a god exists, one is forced to look pragmatically and logically at the evidence. One may well be left with a valid scientific deduction that something supernatural, with real "miraculous " powers exists.

It is not then illogical to attribute creation to this entity and, in fact, faith may be the logical consequence of fact. I do find it difficult to accept that a regular reader of this site can make a statement like, "logically there is no thing supernatural," even if they have never experienced anything in their own lives which cannot be explained through science as we know and understand it today.

God does exist. There is a lot of evidence for this. We may not understand the nature or purpose of this entity, but the evidence that it exists is incontrovertible to those who have experieced its presence, and at least persuasively arguable to those who retain an open mind on the issue.

It is interesting that fewer people will argue with those who"know" flying saucers and aliens exist than those who "know' god exists. The former is now more culturally acceptable than the latter.

Yes, I'm saying that and PA actually already gave a great response to this in his post.


If there was anything in my previous post that made you think I wasn't always sure of God, then I wrote poorly because I am always completely sure of God. See, I don't "believe" that God is there, I know He's there, I know He loves me, I know He has a plan for my life. It is that assurance that makes it easier to deal with any situation in my life, no matter how difficult, no matter how exciting, He's there and He's helping me learn something.

Several years ago I lost my job due to a financial crisis my employer was going through. I went home that day feeling devastated, wondering how I was going to provide for my family, why I had lost a job I loved doing so much, and feeling that this was very unfair.

I felt so bad about it, I only told my wife that day, I was not ready to face my 10 year old son and my 6 year old daughter. the next morning we sat the kids down and I told them I was no longer going to be working at my job. My son asked, "So where are you going to go work, Dad?" without a trace of fear or doubt, he just wanted to know what I was going to be doing next. In that moment I very clearly felt God "speak" (there was no voice, it was pure communication directly into my mind). He was basically saying, "Look, if your son has such complete faith in your ability to provide for him and in your desire to take care of him, and you're just human, how can you have any doubt that I will not do the same for you?" And just like that I had a complete peace about my situation, I knew God truly was in charge and He would take care of us.

What I did not know, was that almost at the same time that my current employers were looking at their situation and saying, "We're going to have to let Iams (names changed to keep the story from getting confusing) go, we can't afford to pay him." My previous employers were dealing with a significant issue and kept saying "If I ams was still here, he would have been the perfect guy to deal with this situation. He would have been able to analyze the situation, develop a process and the teams would have trusted him and worked with him." So, when one of my friends who still worked there found out I was looking for work, he informed my former supervisor, who got in touch with me and made me a very generous offer to come back and help them with the issue.

I was not "officially" unemployed one day, I actually began working a week before my severance was completed, I actually ended up earning more money and having better benefits than I had before I was laid off.

Do I trust God? Do I know He loves me? Do I have absolute confidence that every situation in my life, whether at the moment I perceive it as good or bad, is meant by Him to grow me and benefit me? YES! YES, I do.

Is there anything anyone on these forums or outside of them could say or "prove" that would make me doubt God even for 1 second? Nope.

Perhaps the misunderstanding lies in the term: Supernatural. I know that word, and that is the context of the reply wherein I said Logically there is no thing supernatural . Just a guess, as I wanted to be understood in my pov.

Hey good point PA. Like I said I just believe it that way but you make a very strong point. God does have total control and in that case it DOES make sense that He had intentions of this, i cannot argue. Thanks PA

O PA i just noticed something that I didnt catch the first time I read your post. When I meant that Satan is ruler of the world at this time I didnt mean that God didnt have a leash on Him. Im stating that alot of the blame isnt necessarily towards God but towards the ruler of the World. I still believe that if God doesnt want something to happen it wont happen. I just wanted to try and make myself clearer because im known for taking 4 paragraphs to explain something that can be summed up in a sentence : /.....Sorry if I sounded misleading.

It's definitely gone Off Topic. The moderators are usually very good at putting things right in cases like that though.

son these things happen to Nbs, pagans athiests, christains,buddhists all the time too we know its our own wisdoms coming through, its very common to think this is someone else talking to you(god) , but is you talking to you it seems like an 'other' because of the time continum ..I have millions of these storys everyone does this is natural to living to being human, do you possibly believe that you would not be equipped to handle life ???? have you ever looked at nature.....

I know stuff all the time its natural....i have a story my son (middle boy ) had a friend who he reallly liked his friend shot himself in the head, my son was devastated as you could imagine , he asked me if his freind was gonna be alright at that momnet a thought occurred to me to tell him to ask his higher self for a dream ( I was into the dream state deep at the time) next day he says mom guess what i did what you said and i dreamed that rodney is gonna be alright he talked to me he told me the bullet missed all the vitial parts in his brain, he was gonna be okay....Guess what son Rodney was okay the bullet missed all the vital points, and he is alive and fine today....this isn't god its life , you can certainly label it whatever you want and diefy it as you wish, but this happens to us all , if it wasn't then I'd inquire as to why personally ....can you imagine what we don't know about the capabilitys of a human, we show our understandings by how we interpert things at this time many want to cal this god LOL.....but eventually we will see this is part of being human...

The story is really sweet by the way...you see what I'm saying and you are gonna get many interpretations on this but the bottom line is this doesn't prove god....It just proves you are in tune with yourself....please do not get upset i mean no disresepct to your 'cherished ' beleifs..i really don't care if you call your wise self god...what ever floats your boat...I just wanted to share this is so common i hear these storys all the time from all walks of life....

Sheri, I understand this is your interpretation, and given that you lack the Holy Spirit this is as good as your understanding will be. That's OK, I'm glad you appreciated the story, I did not expect you would be able to see God's presence as clearly as I do.

I would like for you to re-read that, and see if it comes off as cocky and 'I-am-supperior-to-thou' as it seems to be..