Full Version: Challenge To Atheist - $1000 To The Winner
Thaphantum, you may want to look up the definition of Atheist. Not all Atheists are sure God doesn't exist. Some just don't believe in God. FYI for some of the others, it is possible to prove a negative doesn't exist, just not in this case at this time. If anyone can point me to some good anti-christian/anti-pagan/anti-atheist threads, I would appreciate it. I haven't seen anything yet that's anti-anything. Everything I've seen has been pro-something.
I have to say in defense of thaphantum that he is not the one being a nasty git on here.
He asks flat out plain questions which I find interesting. I notice a lot of people posting what his "true motives" are in a very hostile way.
I think you are mistaken. I think he simply would like to have an open dialogue about topics that maybe he can't touch in every day life without dealing with hostile backlash and so he has come here to talk about them.
I would hope that people could put aside all these preconceived judgments.
He asks flat out plain questions which I find interesting. I notice a lot of people posting what his "true motives" are in a very hostile way.
I think you are mistaken. I think he simply would like to have an open dialogue about topics that maybe he can't touch in every day life without dealing with hostile backlash and so he has come here to talk about them.
I would hope that people could put aside all these preconceived judgments.
Hmmm, atheists acting the same way they accuse believers of acting... how interesting!
Thanks folks, I keep making the point that a lot of what Christianity gets blamed for is merely humanity hiding it's actions under the handiest cloak of respectability, and I think many of you have given me further evidence that this is so, otherwise you would not be acting the same way you accuse believers of acting.
Thanks folks, I keep making the point that a lot of what Christianity gets blamed for is merely humanity hiding it's actions under the handiest cloak of respectability, and I think many of you have given me further evidence that this is so, otherwise you would not be acting the same way you accuse believers of acting.
QUOTE(truethat @ Mar 20 2007, 11:56 AM) [snapback]1591184[/snapback]
I have to say in defense of thaphantum that he is not the one being a nasty git on here.
He asks flat out plain questions which I find interesting. I notice a lot of people posting what his "true motives" are in a very hostile way.
I think you are mistaken. I think he simply would like to have an open dialogue about topics that maybe he can't touch in every day life without dealing with hostile backlash and so he has come here to talk about them.
I would hope that people could put aside all these preconceived judgments.
He asks flat out plain questions which I find interesting. I notice a lot of people posting what his "true motives" are in a very hostile way.
I think you are mistaken. I think he simply would like to have an open dialogue about topics that maybe he can't touch in every day life without dealing with hostile backlash and so he has come here to talk about them.
I would hope that people could put aside all these preconceived judgments.
well said true
There is no way for us to prove that God does not exist and God has been made to be out of our reach and that we are limited beings unable to grasp God or the concept of a God. But you must understand that even if we did try and attempt to throw any proof at you if we had any would be swept aside. Just like how we sweep aside the bible as proof of God or a tree as proof of God or a egg roll or ham sandwich that has the image of Jesus or Mary in it as proof of God. Most tend to have personal experiences that prove to them there is a God but it is no good to us just as our proof if we had any would not count to you. We will always go though this stale mate unless God decide's to stop prating about and talking to the select few or elite and just show that he is here.
Could this be by chance?....And no im not attributing it to the christian God, im just asking do you think this could have happened by chance?...I dont have an answer as to whether it is or not but It does make me think we may not be alone.
edit>>The fine tuning of the universe sorry
strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry
weak nuclear force constant
if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry
if smaller: stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form
electromagnetic force constant
if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission
if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support
if smaller: all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements
ratio of electron to proton mass
if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
if smaller: same as above
ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
if smaller: same as above
expansion rate of the universe
if larger: no galaxies would form
if smaller: universe would collapse, even before stars formed
entropy level of the universe
if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies
if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form
mass density of the universe
if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form
if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements
velocity of light
if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support
age of the universe
if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy
if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
initial uniformity of radiation
if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
average distance between galaxies
if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit
density of galaxy cluster
if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit
if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
average distance between stars
if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
if smaller: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines) if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun
if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields
if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun
decay rate of protons
if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life
12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life
ground state energy level for 4He
if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life
if smaller: same as above
decay rate of 8Be
if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry
ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements
if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes
initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons
if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation
if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation
polarity of the water molecule
if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life
if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result
supernovae eruptions
if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
white dwarf binaries
if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry
if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production
if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry
ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass
if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form
if smaller: no galaxies would form
number of effective dimensions in the early universe
if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible
if smaller: same result
number of effective dimensions in the present universe
if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
if larger: same result
mass of the neutrino
if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form
if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense
big bang ripples
if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly
if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form
size of the relativistic dilation factor
if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly
if larger: same result
uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
cosmological constant
if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars
edit>>The fine tuning of the universe sorry
strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry
weak nuclear force constant
if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
gravitational force constant
if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry
if smaller: stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form
electromagnetic force constant
if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission
if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support
if smaller: all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements
ratio of electron to proton mass
if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
if smaller: same as above
ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
if smaller: same as above
expansion rate of the universe
if larger: no galaxies would form
if smaller: universe would collapse, even before stars formed
entropy level of the universe
if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies
if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form
mass density of the universe
if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form
if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements
velocity of light
if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support
age of the universe
if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy
if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
initial uniformity of radiation
if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
average distance between galaxies
if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit
density of galaxy cluster
if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit
if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
average distance between stars
if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
if smaller: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines) if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun
if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields
if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun
decay rate of protons
if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life
12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio
if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life
if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life
ground state energy level for 4He
if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life
if smaller: same as above
decay rate of 8Be
if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry
ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements
if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes
initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons
if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation
if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation
polarity of the water molecule
if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life
if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result
supernovae eruptions
if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
white dwarf binaries
if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry
if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production
if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry
ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass
if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form
if smaller: no galaxies would form
number of effective dimensions in the early universe
if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible
if smaller: same result
number of effective dimensions in the present universe
if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
if larger: same result
mass of the neutrino
if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form
if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense
big bang ripples
if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly
if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form
size of the relativistic dilation factor
if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly
if larger: same result
uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
cosmological constant
if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars
A quick and friendly reminder of the rules which can be seen directly above this thread:
QUOTE
Please always respect the beliefs of other members. The bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. A lot of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect other people's views. This means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks.
Attempts to convert other members to your own religion are not permitted on the forum. This board is about letting people decide for themselves what to believe and it is inappropriate for anyone to be trying to influence members in that regard. Similarly, criticising or condemning members for their religious beliefs is disallowed.
Attempts to convert other members to your own religion are not permitted on the forum. This board is about letting people decide for themselves what to believe and it is inappropriate for anyone to be trying to influence members in that regard. Similarly, criticising or condemning members for their religious beliefs is disallowed.
Excuse me, but wasn't Kratos spoken to about his posting without a source, in the "When they came for the Homosexuals" thread? Fine Tuning of the Universe, originated from what URL, please?!
It helps for those of us that would like to read the full context for that excerpt.
Thanks in advance.
It helps for those of us that would like to read the full context for that excerpt.
Thanks in advance.QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Mar 20 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]1591231[/snapback]
Excuse me, but wasn't Kratos spoken to about his posting without a source, in the "When they came for the Homosexuals" thread?
You made that sound like a title from a 60's scifi movie.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Mar 20 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]1591231[/snapback]
Excuse me, but wasn't Kratos spoken to about his posting without a source, in the "When they came for the Homosexuals" thread? Fine Tuning of the Universe, originated from what URL, please?!
It helps for those of us that would like to read the full context for that excerpt. Thanks in advance.
It helps for those of us that would like to read the full context for that excerpt.
Thanks in advance.O im sorry GW...didnt mean to do that on purpose
Heres 2 sources for forgetting to post my sources....o and make sure you donate...JK!
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologeti..._on_earth.shtml
8 pages and counting
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 19 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]1590405[/snapback]
actually it wasn't that great of a post since i was talking about Steven's quote in the NY Times...
to answer another question... i have $1,000 that's really not hard to come by... lol... i'll accept proof... undeniable proof that God exists...
lol... i really hope you don't plan to post a mathematical equation that "proves" that God doesn't exist... in order to do that, you would have to know every single thing about every single thing that has ever happened or that will happen in the future... thus, making you God... thus, falsifying your own argument...
but go for whatever you want...
to answer another question... i have $1,000 that's really not hard to come by... lol... i'll accept proof... undeniable proof that God exists...
lol... i really hope you don't plan to post a mathematical equation that "proves" that God doesn't exist... in order to do that, you would have to know every single thing about every single thing that has ever happened or that will happen in the future... thus, making you God... thus, falsifying your own argument...
but go for whatever you want...
Einstein did this to prove relitivity, and he was human so why would you not want proof if another human could use caculus the same way, it is a scientific language. ?
QUOTE(chaoszerg @ Mar 20 2007, 07:20 AM) [snapback]1591206[/snapback]
There is no way for us to prove that God does not exist and God has been made to be out of our reach and that we are limited beings unable to grasp God or the concept of a God. But you must understand that even if we did try and attempt to throw any proof at you if we had any would be swept aside. Just like how we sweep aside the bible as proof of God or a tree as proof of God or a egg roll or ham sandwich that has the image of Jesus or Mary in it as proof of God. Most tend to have personal experiences that prove to them there is a God but it is no good to us just as our proof if we had any would not count to you. We will always go though this stale mate unless God decide's to stop prating about and talking to the select few or elite and just show that he is here.
chaos, we may be starting a very interesting trend here between us... I agree with you. We are at a stalemate because God is the only one who can prove He is there, and He is not currently doing columns of smoke by day and pillars of fire by night, He has decided to deal with each of us individually (from the standpoint of a believer, of course). I think the only proper action by respectful and respectable atheists and believers is to continue to dialog without assuming the other side is stupid, unthinking, or the root of all evil. Neither side will really benefit from attitudes that demean the other.
OK after 8 pgs of nonsense I don't think anything was accomplished. Thaphantum you haven't been anything other than a xian, right? So technically you can't see both sides of the issue. You wouldn't be able to see the right answer if it reached up and bit you on the nose because you don't want to see it differently. Many of us here have been god worshippers at one time. We've found our own truth and it doesn't include your god. As you get older and begin to really look at the history of religion you will find that many fallicies and mistruths have been perpetrated upon the faithful. There are many unexplained things in our universe but you can't prove that they were motivated by an unseen entity.
If you are so sure that you're right that you're willing to put up $1000 and no one has come up with what you think is evidence then give us your proof that this thing does exist and no I'm not going to read your blog. I know you can't just as those of us who don't believe can't and don't care to.
Another question, "Why do you care what we think?" If you don't want to be put on the spot or have your religion unfavorably spotlighhted then you've come to the wrong place. We aren't stupid. We've done our homework, HAVE YOU?
If you are so sure that you're right that you're willing to put up $1000 and no one has come up with what you think is evidence then give us your proof that this thing does exist and no I'm not going to read your blog. I know you can't just as those of us who don't believe can't and don't care to.
Another question, "Why do you care what we think?" If you don't want to be put on the spot or have your religion unfavorably spotlighhted then you've come to the wrong place. We aren't stupid. We've done our homework, HAVE YOU?
QUOTE(chaoszerg @ Mar 20 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]1591237[/snapback]
You made that sound like a title from a 60's scifi movie.
Cant you just see the giant movie poster now!? 
Its based on this poem
First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I think that this debate brings up the idea of "Which God am I to prove doesn't exist?"
Can you prove that Zeus doesn't exist? Absolutely? I don't think so.
Can you prove that Zeus doesn't exist? Absolutely? I don't think so.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 08:56 AM) [snapback]1591276[/snapback]
OK after 8 pgs of nonsense I don't think anything was accomplished. Thaphantum you haven't been anything other than a xian, right? So technically you can't see both sides of the issue. You wouldn't be able to see the right answer if it reached up and bit you on the nose because you don't want to see it differently. Many of us here have been god worshippers at one time. We've found our own truth and it doesn't include your god. As you get older and begin to really look at the history of religion you will find that many fallicies and mistruths have been perpetrated upon the faithful. There are many unexplained things in our universe but you can't prove that they were motivated by an unseen entity.
If you are so sure that you're right that you're willing to put up $1000 and no one has come up with what you think is evidence then give us your proof that this thing does exist and no I'm not going to read your blog. I know you can't just as those of us who don't believe can't and don't care to.
Another question, "Why do you care what we think?" If you don't want to be put on the spot or have your religion unfavorably spotlighhted then you've come to the wrong place. We aren't stupid. We've done our homework, HAVE YOU?
If you are so sure that you're right that you're willing to put up $1000 and no one has come up with what you think is evidence then give us your proof that this thing does exist and no I'm not going to read your blog. I know you can't just as those of us who don't believe can't and don't care to.
Another question, "Why do you care what we think?" If you don't want to be put on the spot or have your religion unfavorably spotlighhted then you've come to the wrong place. We aren't stupid. We've done our homework, HAVE YOU?
Why do you assume that you can't see truth unless you have experienced it, or that if you're a Christian and have never walked away from Christianity you are incapable of understanding something?
I've never experienced being African American, but I can understand the history of African Americans. I've never been a woman, but I can understand the frustration of being underestimated, (maybe not exactly in the way a woman does, but I understand it), I've never been a murderer, but I have a very clear understanding of why killing someone is wrong. To say, "You can't see both sides of the issue because you've never been on the other side," is a very thinly veiled way of saying, "You're ignorant, and I'm not."
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]1591267[/snapback]
chaos, we may be starting a very interesting trend here between us... I agree with you.
I know.............it's scary lol
QUOTE
8 pages and counting
Ashley you will be counting pages for a very long time because you and I know that no one will be able to prove God does not exist and it would be the same when it came to trying to prove God exists. I can only say I don't believe God exists because I have had nothing happen to me to show me God exists just people who say they have had there own personal experiences which is no good to me because then I would just have to take there word on it which does not cut it.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 09:07 AM) [snapback]1591285[/snapback]
Why do you assume that you can't see truth unless you have experienced it, or that if you're a Christian and have never walked away from Christianity you are incapable of understanding something?
I've never experienced being African American, but I can understand the history of African Americans. I've never been a woman, but I can understand the frustration of being underestimated, (maybe not exactly in the way a woman does, but I understand it), I've never been a murderer, but I have a very clear understanding of why killing someone is wrong. To say, "You can't see both sides of the issue because you've never been on the other side," is a very thinly veiled way of saying, "You're ignorant, and I'm not."
I've never experienced being African American, but I can understand the history of African Americans. I've never been a woman, but I can understand the frustration of being underestimated, (maybe not exactly in the way a woman does, but I understand it), I've never been a murderer, but I have a very clear understanding of why killing someone is wrong. To say, "You can't see both sides of the issue because you've never been on the other side," is a very thinly veiled way of saying, "You're ignorant, and I'm not."
Really? I don't think you or anyone can understand another persons situation unless you are in it. You/we may think we can but unless you're really there no I don't think so. If you've never walked away from something to see it from the other side then NO you don't have a full perspective. The religious have been frightened by their god which keeps them on only one side of the issue. You have to agree that one side isn't all sides. Being sympathetic or empathetic to another isn't the same as truely being them.
BTW, isn't your last line your thinly veiled attempt to say nonbelievers are ignorant and you're not?
Really? I don't think you or anyone can understand another persons situation unless you are in it.
And this you are correct. To deny that a believer doesnt experience things that defy science or has revelations of future events and then see them come to pass would follow along the lines of that quote. I take this from a neutral position but I see alot of atheist that call these types of people "loons", but the fact that they have never experienced it usually is the cause of such an outrageous claims. There are certain things that science and time will discover but some things that have been reported and experienced defy logic and science. Just read on a nurses forum of NDE's from the nurses prespective.
And this you are correct. To deny that a believer doesnt experience things that defy science or has revelations of future events and then see them come to pass would follow along the lines of that quote. I take this from a neutral position but I see alot of atheist that call these types of people "loons", but the fact that they have never experienced it usually is the cause of such an outrageous claims. There are certain things that science and time will discover but some things that have been reported and experienced defy logic and science. Just read on a nurses forum of NDE's from the nurses prespective.
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 19 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]1590336[/snapback]
nope... just forcing atheists to admit that they DON"T know that there is no God...
it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe... mostly because the evidence for God's existance is stacking up...
it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe... mostly because the evidence for God's existance is stacking up...
i must say that 1, this in the wrong section and 2, how can you prove something is not there if there is nothing there!!! if something isnt there then there is no evidence of it existing or not existing, theres no way to prove that something isnt there, just because u dont see aliens doesnt mean that there are none, if god exists why are people dieing all the time of illness, and of course u probably will say it is punishment for their sins, what about the children that die, the stillbirths?! WHY DOES GOD LET THINGS DIE? he just sits there and watches us suffer, doing nothing, either he is some malifecent god, or he doesnt exist and the "experiencers" are on drugs. either that or they are crazy. answer all of that, and i might believe, but ill need one hell of a good answer.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 09:19 AM) [snapback]1591301[/snapback]
Really? I don't think you or anyone can understand another persons situation unless you are in it. You/we may think we can but unless you're really there no I don't think so. If you've never walked away from something to see it from the other side then NO you don't have a full perspective. The religious have been frightened by their god which keeps them on only one side of the issue. You have to agree that one side isn't all sides. Being sympathetic or empathetic to another isn't the same as truely being them.
I keep seeing this claim, that believers are kept in their place by God through fear, and frankly, I know quite a few Christians, including myself, who are not working out of fear. After all, I am guaranteed a place in Heaven and there was nothing I did to earn it, so there is nothing I can do to lose it, I do not fear what happens to me in this life, because I have the sureness of God's love and His presence to comfort me, and I know it is all part of His plan for my life, so I know it is not just random happenstance. So,... where's the fear?
QUOTE
BTW, isn't your last line your thinly veiled attempt to say nonbelievers are ignorant and you're not?
No, because I never claimed to know something you were incapable of knowing.
O O I see a mod check this topic out. I better reply before he shuts it down.
Why to you insist on hassling the Atheist, they can't prove there is no God anymore than you can prove there is a God. There has been lots of threads on this subject and they all end with I am right and your wrong arguments. I have seen some of my Gods and Goddesses but I can't prove they exist or who and what they are. I don't even bother to try, it is enough that I believe in them. I don't care what others believe as long as they leave me alone to practice my faith in peace.
Man your picture has such a grumpy face, you ever smile?
Why to you insist on hassling the Atheist, they can't prove there is no God anymore than you can prove there is a God. There has been lots of threads on this subject and they all end with I am right and your wrong arguments. I have seen some of my Gods and Goddesses but I can't prove they exist or who and what they are. I don't even bother to try, it is enough that I believe in them. I don't care what others believe as long as they leave me alone to practice my faith in peace.
Man your picture has such a grumpy face, you ever smile?
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 20 2007, 09:25 AM) [snapback]1591309[/snapback]
Really? I don't think you or anyone can understand another persons situation unless you are in it.
And this you are correct. To deny that a believer doesnt experience things that defy science or has revelations of future events and then see them come to pass would follow along the lines of that quote. I take this from a neutral position but I see alot of atheist that call these types of people "loons", but the fact that they have never experienced it usually is the cause of such an outrageous claims. There are certain things that science and time will discover but some things that have been reported and experienced defy logic and science. Just read on a nurses forum of NDE's from the nurses prespective.
And this you are correct. To deny that a believer doesnt experience things that defy science or has revelations of future events and then see them come to pass would follow along the lines of that quote. I take this from a neutral position but I see alot of atheist that call these types of people "loons", but the fact that they have never experienced it usually is the cause of such an outrageous claims. There are certain things that science and time will discover but some things that have been reported and experienced defy logic and science. Just read on a nurses forum of NDE's from the nurses prespective.
I don't think we're on the same page. If you are talking about biblical revelations then I would say that they aren't worth the paper they are written on. Anyone who reads them can make them happen. The revelations in that book are so vague that they apply to many interpretations. Many people believe them so whole heartedly that they bring them to life in there own interpretation.
As all of you can see, the people who have walked away from the dogma of religion are not bannished to some firey pit. We live beautiful and comfortable lives without the worship of a god/desses. I know you don't want to hear that but it's true.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]1591320[/snapback]
I keep seeing this claim, that believers are kept in their place by God through fear, and frankly, I know quite a few Christians, including myself, who are not working out of fear. After all, I am guaranteed a place in Heaven and there was nothing I did to earn it, so there is nothing I can do to lose it, I do not fear what happens to me in this life, because I have the sureness of God's love and His presence to comfort me, and I know it is all part of His plan for my life, so I know it is not just random happenstance. So,... where's the fear?
No, because I never claimed to know something you were incapable of knowing.
No, because I never claimed to know something you were incapable of knowing.
If this is true then come over here and see things from our point of view. Leave your god for a while. Stop worshiping it and see it how we do. You can't do that can you? Is it really out of a commitment or are you afraid to denounce the god you worship because it might reach down and slap you out of existance? This is what most of the religious are afraid of does that include you too?
still noone has answered my questions, what about the person who made this topic, why dont u answer them? ill tell u why, because u cant, the all loving god that you "know" simply doesnt exist, if he did then there wouldnt be famine, there wouldnt be plauge, and there wouldnt be premature death. there are many things in this world that are horrific, torturers, criminals, i wont say what kind because there are kids on teh site, but it simply is wrong how so many are victims of violence or poverty. your "god" is no more than a fairy tale, i am sorry if i come off strong but religion twists my sides till the bones break, i hate the very thought of it. please just answer my questions.
QUOTE(lifeanddeath @ Mar 20 2007, 09:50 AM) [snapback]1591332[/snapback]
still noone has answered my questions, what about the person who made this topic, why dont u answer them? ill tell u why, because u cant, the all loving god that you "know" simply doesnt exist, if he did then there wouldnt be famine, there wouldnt be plauge, and there wouldnt be premature death. there are many things in this world that are horrific, torturers, criminals, i wont say what kind because there are kids on teh site, but it simply is wrong how so many are victims of violence or poverty. your "god" is no more than a fairy tale, i am sorry if i come off strong but religion twists my sides till the bones break, i hate the very thought of it. please just answer my questions.
I can see what you're saying but this makes you sound like one of those fundementalist atheists. If you don't believe in it then why do you let them bother you so much. Let them believe what they want and we will believe what we want. No harm done.
OK in the spirit of cooperation I will explain how I came to the conclusion that there is no God as has been described by believers.
Here's how I came to the conclusion.
For a long time I believed in God but there were always points in all faiths that didn't add up to me. In other words this is supposed to be "GOD" not some head manager type guy but the grand creator of the universe. And yet in all the texts that I read there were always some silly stuff like "Don't have long hair if you are a man" or "Don't look at a woman's face" it just didn't add up to me that the big cheese out there would concern himself with something so petty. After a while I sorta pushed that aside and figured there were reasons for this that I didn't understand and perhaps it was just the easiest way for God to protect the people at the time because they weren't sophisticated enough to understand things. Like don't eat pork because at the time pigs were dirty animals so just ban pork instead of trying to teach them about bacteria right?
But after 911 I noticed two things. One was that after all the progress we had made in the world we were back to ground zero as far as what human beings were capable of doing in the name of "God" Seemed weird to me. I have no problem with God letting people die because who knows, perhaps they have a better existence perhaps its like Phoenix in X men, beyond our comprehension.
But I do have a problem with stuff being said to be done in God's name that God doesn't say "uh no, that's not in my name" He's curiously silent after having spoken to people forever. Why not come back and clear this up a bit. Then I started having conversations with born agains who were almost giddy during 911 because they felt the rapture was coming. And they really appalled me.
I wrote an angry letter to God saying that to say the physical earth as we know it, is not enough is not really giving us free will. And then I got mad at god for not making things clearer. Why not a flat book that simply states in plain and simple terms what the deal is. Why all these interpretations.
I kept trying to reconcile all the contradictions of not only the text but also the attributes of God. He's inventing the universe but concerned about a haircut length.
Finally as I tried and tried to reconcile, I came to this clear and vivid thought. Pretty much Occums razor. All this confusion and trying to make it make sense when suddenly I thought, the thing tha makes the most sense is that it is not true. If its not true that it makes a lot of sense. And then I felt a total relief on my mind. Like.........no kidding. Like I woke up.
Looking back I can't believe that I ever believed in God. I can't believe how much influence it had over my life and how much I had limited myself as a person because of a mythology. I had researched and researched not trying to disprove God, but simply to try to understand him. And I think a lot of atheists had this approach which is why they are often more versed in the history of religion and in other religions than just the one they were raised in. They were trying to make it make sense.
But it doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. The flaws are too many to mention.
If you still believe that this is part of some huge huge plan I can respect that because perhaps you will find your way and faith helps.
But at the end as I live my life I feel like prior to this I was almost brainwashed, I don't suggest that believers are but I see the way when you believe your mind is clouded with faith, which is a good thing to some.
To me it was clouding my truth.
The fact that it doesn't add up the way the testaments say so and the fact that I am more at peace and happy since "waking up" are two of my own personal proofs that God as he is described by believers does not exist.
Here's how I came to the conclusion.
For a long time I believed in God but there were always points in all faiths that didn't add up to me. In other words this is supposed to be "GOD" not some head manager type guy but the grand creator of the universe. And yet in all the texts that I read there were always some silly stuff like "Don't have long hair if you are a man" or "Don't look at a woman's face" it just didn't add up to me that the big cheese out there would concern himself with something so petty. After a while I sorta pushed that aside and figured there were reasons for this that I didn't understand and perhaps it was just the easiest way for God to protect the people at the time because they weren't sophisticated enough to understand things. Like don't eat pork because at the time pigs were dirty animals so just ban pork instead of trying to teach them about bacteria right?
But after 911 I noticed two things. One was that after all the progress we had made in the world we were back to ground zero as far as what human beings were capable of doing in the name of "God" Seemed weird to me. I have no problem with God letting people die because who knows, perhaps they have a better existence perhaps its like Phoenix in X men, beyond our comprehension.
But I do have a problem with stuff being said to be done in God's name that God doesn't say "uh no, that's not in my name" He's curiously silent after having spoken to people forever. Why not come back and clear this up a bit. Then I started having conversations with born agains who were almost giddy during 911 because they felt the rapture was coming. And they really appalled me.
I wrote an angry letter to God saying that to say the physical earth as we know it, is not enough is not really giving us free will. And then I got mad at god for not making things clearer. Why not a flat book that simply states in plain and simple terms what the deal is. Why all these interpretations.
I kept trying to reconcile all the contradictions of not only the text but also the attributes of God. He's inventing the universe but concerned about a haircut length.
Finally as I tried and tried to reconcile, I came to this clear and vivid thought. Pretty much Occums razor. All this confusion and trying to make it make sense when suddenly I thought, the thing tha makes the most sense is that it is not true. If its not true that it makes a lot of sense. And then I felt a total relief on my mind. Like.........no kidding. Like I woke up.
Looking back I can't believe that I ever believed in God. I can't believe how much influence it had over my life and how much I had limited myself as a person because of a mythology. I had researched and researched not trying to disprove God, but simply to try to understand him. And I think a lot of atheists had this approach which is why they are often more versed in the history of religion and in other religions than just the one they were raised in. They were trying to make it make sense.
But it doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. The flaws are too many to mention.
If you still believe that this is part of some huge huge plan I can respect that because perhaps you will find your way and faith helps.
But at the end as I live my life I feel like prior to this I was almost brainwashed, I don't suggest that believers are but I see the way when you believe your mind is clouded with faith, which is a good thing to some.
To me it was clouding my truth.
The fact that it doesn't add up the way the testaments say so and the fact that I am more at peace and happy since "waking up" are two of my own personal proofs that God as he is described by believers does not exist.
As all of you can see, the people who have walked away from the dogma of religion are not bannished to some firey pit. We live beautiful and comfortable lives without the worship of a god/desses. I know you don't want to hear that but it's true.
Im actually glad to hear that dude. You get religious folk crossed with christianity. These types of people amaze me, they preach hellfire and brimstone during the weekend then during the week you see them on the news for fondeling a 10 yr old, thats what makes things look so much worse than they are. Ive stated this countless times in this forum but alot of people just dont read it but Jesus was actually KILLED by religion. The pharisees put him on the cross NOT the so called atheists and non believers, neutrals, u get the point. There is quite a difference and to be honest with you. I was happy when I didnt follow God, I loved to party and enjoy my life, but i can say this, I wouldnt go back for anything.
Im actually glad to hear that dude. You get religious folk crossed with christianity. These types of people amaze me, they preach hellfire and brimstone during the weekend then during the week you see them on the news for fondeling a 10 yr old, thats what makes things look so much worse than they are. Ive stated this countless times in this forum but alot of people just dont read it but Jesus was actually KILLED by religion. The pharisees put him on the cross NOT the so called atheists and non believers, neutrals, u get the point. There is quite a difference and to be honest with you. I was happy when I didnt follow God, I loved to party and enjoy my life, but i can say this, I wouldnt go back for anything.
QUOTE(truethat @ Mar 20 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]1591341[/snapback]
OK in the spirit of cooperation I will explain how I came to the conclusion that there is no God as has been described by believers.
Here's how I came to the conclusion.
For a long time I believed in God but there were always points in all faiths that didn't add up to me. In other words this is supposed to be "GOD" not some head manager type guy but the grand creator of the universe. And yet in all the texts that I read there were always some silly stuff like "Don't have long hair if you are a man" or "Don't look at a woman's face" it just didn't add up to me that the big cheese out there would concern himself with something so petty. After a while I sorta pushed that aside and figured there were reasons for this that I didn't understand and perhaps it was just the easiest way for God to protect the people at the time because they weren't sophisticated enough to understand things. Like don't eat pork because at the time pigs were dirty animals so just ban pork instead of trying to teach them about bacteria right?
But after 911 I noticed two things. One was that after all the progress we had made in the world we were back to ground zero as far as what human beings were capable of doing in the name of "God" Seemed weird to me. I have no problem with God letting people die because who knows, perhaps they have a better existence perhaps its like Phoenix in X men, beyond our comprehension.
But I do have a problem with stuff being said to be done in God's name that God doesn't say "uh no, that's not in my name" He's curiously silent after having spoken to people forever. Why not come back and clear this up a bit. Then I started having conversations with born agains who were almost giddy during 911 because they felt the rapture was coming. And they really appalled me.
I wrote an angry letter to God saying that to say the physical earth as we know it, is not enough is not really giving us free will. And then I got mad at god for not making things clearer. Why not a flat book that simply states in plain and simple terms what the deal is. Why all these interpretations.
I kept trying to reconcile all the contradictions of not only the text but also the attributes of God. He's inventing the universe but concerned about a haircut length.
Finally as I tried and tried to reconcile, I came to this clear and vivid thought. Pretty much Occums razor. ALl this confusion and trying to make it make sense when suddenly I thought, the thing tha makes the most sense is that it is not true. If its not true that it makes a lot of sense. And then I felt a total relief on my mind. Like.........no kidding. Like I woke up.
Looking back I can't believe that I ever believed in God. I can't believe how much influence it had over my life and how much I had limited myself as a person because of a mythology. I had researched and researched not trying to disprove God, but simply to try to understand him. And I think a lot of atheists had this approach which is why they are often more versed in the history of religion and in other religions than just the one they were raised in. They were trying to make it make sense.
But it doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. The flaws are too many to mention.
If you still believe that this is part of some huge huge plan I can respect that because perhaps you will find your way and faith helps.
But at the end as I live my life I feel like prior to this I was almost brainwashed, I don't suggest that believers are but I see the way when you believe your mind is clouded with faith, which is a good thing to some.
To me it was clouding my truth.
The fact that it doesn't add up the way the testaments say so and the fact that I am more at peace and happy since "waking up" are two of my own personal proofs that God as he is described by believers does not exist.
Here's how I came to the conclusion.
For a long time I believed in God but there were always points in all faiths that didn't add up to me. In other words this is supposed to be "GOD" not some head manager type guy but the grand creator of the universe. And yet in all the texts that I read there were always some silly stuff like "Don't have long hair if you are a man" or "Don't look at a woman's face" it just didn't add up to me that the big cheese out there would concern himself with something so petty. After a while I sorta pushed that aside and figured there were reasons for this that I didn't understand and perhaps it was just the easiest way for God to protect the people at the time because they weren't sophisticated enough to understand things. Like don't eat pork because at the time pigs were dirty animals so just ban pork instead of trying to teach them about bacteria right?
But after 911 I noticed two things. One was that after all the progress we had made in the world we were back to ground zero as far as what human beings were capable of doing in the name of "God" Seemed weird to me. I have no problem with God letting people die because who knows, perhaps they have a better existence perhaps its like Phoenix in X men, beyond our comprehension.
But I do have a problem with stuff being said to be done in God's name that God doesn't say "uh no, that's not in my name" He's curiously silent after having spoken to people forever. Why not come back and clear this up a bit. Then I started having conversations with born agains who were almost giddy during 911 because they felt the rapture was coming. And they really appalled me.
I wrote an angry letter to God saying that to say the physical earth as we know it, is not enough is not really giving us free will. And then I got mad at god for not making things clearer. Why not a flat book that simply states in plain and simple terms what the deal is. Why all these interpretations.
I kept trying to reconcile all the contradictions of not only the text but also the attributes of God. He's inventing the universe but concerned about a haircut length.
Finally as I tried and tried to reconcile, I came to this clear and vivid thought. Pretty much Occums razor. ALl this confusion and trying to make it make sense when suddenly I thought, the thing tha makes the most sense is that it is not true. If its not true that it makes a lot of sense. And then I felt a total relief on my mind. Like.........no kidding. Like I woke up.
Looking back I can't believe that I ever believed in God. I can't believe how much influence it had over my life and how much I had limited myself as a person because of a mythology. I had researched and researched not trying to disprove God, but simply to try to understand him. And I think a lot of atheists had this approach which is why they are often more versed in the history of religion and in other religions than just the one they were raised in. They were trying to make it make sense.
But it doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. The flaws are too many to mention.
If you still believe that this is part of some huge huge plan I can respect that because perhaps you will find your way and faith helps.
But at the end as I live my life I feel like prior to this I was almost brainwashed, I don't suggest that believers are but I see the way when you believe your mind is clouded with faith, which is a good thing to some.
To me it was clouding my truth.
The fact that it doesn't add up the way the testaments say so and the fact that I am more at peace and happy since "waking up" are two of my own personal proofs that God as he is described by believers does not exist.
YES, YES, YES! This is pretty much my story too only I have studied religious history somewhat. Not a whole lot of it makes any sense and it keeps repeating the same old mythical stories over and over.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 09:50 AM) [snapback]1591331[/snapback]
If this is true then come over here and see things from our point of view. Leave your god for a while. Stop worshiping it and see it how we do. You can't do that can you? Is it really out of a commitment or are you afraid to denounce the god you worship because it might reach down and slap you out of existance? This is what most of the religious are afraid of does that include you too?
Why do you assume I would not do this out of fear? I am unable to do what you ask because I would have to lie to myself to do that. Could you be a paraplegic if you just denied that you had legs? Like I said I do not fear God in the way you seem to imply. I respect Him, I am in awe of a being who has the power to Create everything I see about me and can give life and intelligence, a being who can do all that and yet loves me so much He knows how many hairs are in my head. I have no fear that He will turn on me and obliterate me.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 20 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]1591342[/snapback]
Im actually glad to hear that dude.
Did I miss something? When did females become dudes? I know I'm not that old!
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 03:11 PM) [snapback]1591350[/snapback]
YES, YES, YES! This is pretty much my story too only I have studied religious history somewhat. Not a whole lot of it makes any sense and it keeps repeating the same old mythical stories over and over.
Which mythical stories are you mentioning?
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 03:11 PM) [snapback]1591350[/snapback]
YES, YES, YES! This is pretty much my story too only I have studied religious history somewhat. Not a whole lot of it makes any sense and it keeps repeating the same old mythical stories over and over.
Exactly
Part Two of my proof.
Now that I had come to the conclusion that it was made up I started investigating pretty deeply. For example Joseph Campbell they Power of Myth and seeing that this wasn't one story but rather an archetype that has been repeated over and over again by mankind since the beginning of time.
So to some believers they would argue, as I used to, that this is evidence that God does exist because why would all these separate cultures have the same mythologies. What purpose would it serve.
What I realized then was that there is the evidence. We know now that all Greek gods for example are human invention. So all that this did was give evidence that it was made up. If all the other God theories turned out to not be true, then it stands to reason that down the line this God theory would face the same fate, especially if it was based on the same archetypes.
I realized that we see ourselves in the here and now and don't understand that in 1000 years people are going to look back on our history and see the JudeoChristian Muslim era just as we look back on the Greeks. And the Greeks god stories were believed for I think about 5-6 thousand years. So two thousand years of Jesus is chump change.
In the end its just another version of the archetype.
My interest now is why we as humans need and respond so well to these archetypes and if you notice in popular culture you will see that for example Star Wars was really inspirational to a lot of people and had a lasting impact. JR Rowling based the Harry Potter series on this archetype.
ETA Joseph Campbell was a historian who studied ancient mythologies. He was asked to assist George Lucas in writing Star Wars.
There is something about it that really connects with people.
Once I began seeing this as just one more of the "God stories" it lost all power to me.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]1591351[/snapback]
Why do you assume I would not do this out of fear? I am unable to do what you ask because I would have to lie to myself to do that. Could you be a paraplegic if you just denied that you had legs? Like I said I do not fear God in the way you seem to imply. I respect Him, I am in awe of a being who has the power to Create everything I see about me and can give life and intelligence, a being who can do all that and yet loves me so much He knows how many hairs are in my head. I have no fear that He will turn on me and obliterate me.
The analogy you are using isn't quite the same as it's a physical part of a body and not a mind or imagination thing that an entity is. You believe in it because you choose to believe what's been passed down to you in the stories you've been told. I choose to believe the way I do because I've challenged the religious theories and I feel that I've come out far more knowledgable for it. Things actually make more sense to me than they did when I worshipped your god. I am free to explore the universe without being held by some god or religion. Think of the possibilities that holds.
QUOTE(lifeanddeath @ Mar 20 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]1591332[/snapback]
still noone has answered my questions, what about the person who made this topic, why dont u answer them? ill tell u why, because u cant, the all loving god that you "know" simply doesnt exist, if he did then there wouldnt be famine, there wouldnt be plauge, and there wouldnt be premature death. there are many things in this world that are horrific, torturers, criminals, i wont say what kind because there are kids on teh site, but it simply is wrong how so many are victims of violence or poverty. your "god" is no more than a fairy tale, i am sorry if i come off strong but religion twists my sides till the bones break, i hate the very thought of it. please just answer my questions.
The best way to be in Gods place is to create a ant colony.
Man has this thread gotten way out of hand...When I read the 1st statement, I thought...OK maybe this Guy is trying to say something here, maybe he will make a point and say - You cant prove God doesnt exist...just in the same way you cant expect, those of us that do in fact believe in God..to proove he does exist...but hey hey...I was wrong he is very much baised towards others opinions and at the same time throws them abuse.....
Sigh typical....just typical...but then he goes on to ignore others that ask him senseable questions...he dodges every last question and theory that makes sense
This makes sense to me BIG time...well said
Yup you are correct, it IS just down to a belief...something that not one person can proove right or wrong...but it gets worse
Now now tsk tsk...IAMS its not a tit for tat situation now is it??...I too have seen non believers ask where is the proof God exists...but never have i seen this nonsense..like just read the silly title of the thread says it all....I have seen a lot of believer ask atheists the SAME thing...but not ONCE have I entered a blasting thread such as this..its absurd....
Yes, your signature tells us you would believe in just about anything that others may see as myths...its says it all..what you do believe in ..an expert you say
Well said and guess what you arent the only one to make this point to him...he has gone a bit too far...and not once has he taken into consideration, as to WHY people dont believe...NOPE
Sure is...so true...it is IMPOSSIBLE...but wait there's a grand up for grabs LOL as if!!!
I am a true believer in God...but if i made a thread that offers $10,000( yea cuz im generous like that).... to the person that can help me proove God DOES exist...how many of you will say my statement is just plain stupid?? that its impossible to proove God exists...See I BELIEVE God exists..yea....but I CANT PROVE IT can I?? LMAO nope...like many have said on this board..its impossible
This thread has turned sour so fast...its high time someone realized that maybe they should pay attention to other opinion and see as to WHY people dont believe
Just because I believe in God...doesnt make me baised towards others that DONT believe...I can see why an athesit doesnt believe...it makes sense to me...but that doesnt make me want to become an atheist...its called RESPECT
If you can put yourelf in the opposite sides shoes for a moment...maybe..just maybe you might understand
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 20 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]1591095[/snapback]
yeah, like the truman show... which reminds me of a topic i wanted to post but i'll do it later...
maybe nothing exists at all... maybe you are just on some good medicine somewhere in a crazy house and your dreaming all of this... so technically you are diagreeing with yourself... and the internet consists of all the knowlodge that you have by yourself... well, you get the point... which is pretty much why you are in the nut house...
maybe nothing exists at all... maybe you are just on some good medicine somewhere in a crazy house and your dreaming all of this... so technically you are diagreeing with yourself... and the internet consists of all the knowlodge that you have by yourself... well, you get the point... which is pretty much why you are in the nut house...
Sigh typical....just typical...but then he goes on to ignore others that ask him senseable questions...he dodges every last question and theory that makes sense
QUOTE(Abecrombie @ Mar 20 2007, 09:55 AM) [snapback]1591096[/snapback]
To tell you the truth your right its a waste of time,.. I tried to be nice about the whole thing and you ignore my view and others,.. Dont be suprised if this thread becomes closed for reason mentioned here by others, Now why cant you meet me half way and be a little more open minded when it comes to others feelings , ?
I getting the impression that Your not a very nice person, you say you believe in god but the your not even trying to understand certain points im making , Why? Are you just being unpleasant to upset people or what?
Do tell
I getting the impression that Your not a very nice person, you say you believe in god but the your not even trying to understand certain points im making , Why? Are you just being unpleasant to upset people or what?
Do tell
This makes sense to me BIG time...well said
QUOTE(Freightrain @ Mar 20 2007, 10:45 AM) [snapback]1591129[/snapback]
WTF are you asking of proof of something that you cannot prove to be false? all together this thread is POINTLESS. its a belief plain and simple so let it go.
Yup you are correct, it IS just down to a belief...something that not one person can proove right or wrong...but it gets worse
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 12:03 PM) [snapback]1591192[/snapback]
Hmmm, atheists acting the same way they accuse believers of acting... how interesting!
Now now tsk tsk...IAMS its not a tit for tat situation now is it??...I too have seen non believers ask where is the proof God exists...but never have i seen this nonsense..like just read the silly title of the thread says it all....I have seen a lot of believer ask atheists the SAME thing...but not ONCE have I entered a blasting thread such as this..its absurd....
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 20 2007, 08:56 AM) [snapback]1591054[/snapback]
feel free to read the statement below my picture...
Yes, your signature tells us you would believe in just about anything that others may see as myths...its says it all..what you do believe in ..an expert you say
QUOTE(AtlantisRises @ Mar 20 2007, 12:42 AM) [snapback]1590461[/snapback]
Um 
To prove a negative is a logical fallacy...
At anyrate this thread is a trainwreck waiting to happen. The OP has obviously came with the hope of trampling all over the beliefs of any who disagree with him.
From claiming Hawkings has made a statement without giving a citation to quite obvious Flame Baiting he seems to have gone out of his way to break the rules.Now on the original statement, that challenging aethiests to prove the non-existance of god (A logical fallacy) it should be note that there is no proof of god that can not be put down to psychological or other phenomena if the person viewing it is of a mind to call it such.
The fact is that it is both impossible to prove and impossible to disprove the existance of god. Short of his appearing in a flying sleigh pulled by a dozen reindeer I can see no way of concluding it either way. And in this day and age such an occurance would result in everyone looking for the strings rather then increasing the faithful...
To prove a negative is a logical fallacy...
At anyrate this thread is a trainwreck waiting to happen. The OP has obviously came with the hope of trampling all over the beliefs of any who disagree with him.
From claiming Hawkings has made a statement without giving a citation to quite obvious Flame Baiting he seems to have gone out of his way to break the rules.Now on the original statement, that challenging aethiests to prove the non-existance of god (A logical fallacy) it should be note that there is no proof of god that can not be put down to psychological or other phenomena if the person viewing it is of a mind to call it such.
The fact is that it is both impossible to prove and impossible to disprove the existance of god. Short of his appearing in a flying sleigh pulled by a dozen reindeer I can see no way of concluding it either way. And in this day and age such an occurance would result in everyone looking for the strings rather then increasing the faithful...
Well said and guess what you arent the only one to make this point to him...he has gone a bit too far...and not once has he taken into consideration, as to WHY people dont believe...NOPE
QUOTE(Fluffybunny @ Mar 20 2007, 12:58 AM) [snapback]1590492[/snapback]
It is impossible to "prove" a negative.
Sure is...so true...it is IMPOSSIBLE...but wait there's a grand up for grabs LOL as if!!!
I am a true believer in God...but if i made a thread that offers $10,000( yea cuz im generous like that).... to the person that can help me proove God DOES exist...how many of you will say my statement is just plain stupid?? that its impossible to proove God exists...See I BELIEVE God exists..yea....but I CANT PROVE IT can I?? LMAO nope...like many have said on this board..its impossible
This thread has turned sour so fast...its high time someone realized that maybe they should pay attention to other opinion and see as to WHY people dont believe
Just because I believe in God...doesnt make me baised towards others that DONT believe...I can see why an athesit doesnt believe...it makes sense to me...but that doesnt make me want to become an atheist...its called RESPECT
If you can put yourelf in the opposite sides shoes for a moment...maybe..just maybe you might understand
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 03:14 PM) [snapback]1591352[/snapback]
Did I miss something? When did females become dudes? I know I'm not that old!
o crap im so sorry curiousity. I didnt mean that in a bad way
truethat,
Joseph Campbell was one of my favorite myth story tellers. The world lost a good man and a great historian. I never missed one of his series with Bill Moyer another one of my favorite people.
Joseph Campbell was one of my favorite myth story tellers. The world lost a good man and a great historian. I never missed one of his series with Bill Moyer another one of my favorite people.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 20 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]1590607[/snapback]
Also the events in the bible are unsubstantiated so how can you use them as an arguement, not even the Roman records list the events as occuring and they where quite meticulous about such things
I am not really contributing to this thread but I WOULD like for you to send us a link on that. Ive found some VERY influential scholars that disagree with you on that quote. Are you 100% confident on this statement?
I am not really contributing to this thread but I WOULD like for you to send us a link on that. Ive found some VERY influential scholars that disagree with you on that quote. Are you 100% confident on this statement?
Yes I am, there are many things in the bible that are unsubstantiated, including Jesus returning from the dead, is there any actual evidence to support this. It is considered debatable that the town of Nazareth even existed when Jesus was supposed to be born. Even the existance of Jesus is unsubstantiated.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 20 2007, 10:31 AM) [snapback]1591382[/snapback]
o crap im so sorry curiousity. I didnt mean that in a bad way
No bad taken. Although I'm now old enough to get hair on my chin, menopause
QUOTE(Ashley-Star*Child @ Mar 20 2007, 01:41 PM) [snapback]1591261[/snapback]
8 pages and counting
So what don't you understand about it being impossible to prove a negative.
How about you prove there is no flying spaghetti monster. I'll give you £1000 if you do.
For why I don't believe in God. No evidence.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 10:27 AM) [snapback]1591374[/snapback]
The analogy you are using isn't quite the same as it's a physical part of a body and not a mind or imagination thing that an entity is. You believe in it because you choose to believe what's been passed down to you in the stories you've been told. I choose to believe the way I do because I've challenged the religious theories and I feel that I've come out far more knowledgable for it. Things actually make more sense to me than they did when I worshipped your god. I am free to explore the universe without being held by some god or religion. Think of the possibilities that holds.
From your standpoint this is just an imaginary being. For me He is not. I interact with Him daily. He is as real to me as my hand. I am sorry that you felt you were somehow constrained when you were involved in religion, but maybe that is the difference, I am not a religious person, I am not seeking a way to reach God, I am a spiritual person, I have a walk with God, because I realized there was nothing I could do to reach Him and He had already done everything necessary for us to have a true relationship.
QUOTE(Mattshark @ Mar 20 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]1591397[/snapback]
So what don't you understand about it being impossible to prove a negative.
How about you prove there is no flying spaghetti monster. I'll give you £1000 if you do.
For why I don't believe in God. No evidence.
How about you prove there is no flying spaghetti monster. I'll give you £1000 if you do.
For why I don't believe in God. No evidence.
LOL hey would you give me £1000 If i did?? please I fancy this new HD tv i saw in Currys the other day...that would be nice
But darn it...I cant prove God exists...shucks there goes that 42 inch tv till next months pay day I guess.........aww hey can you pretend I PM'd you the proof LMAO and just gimme the money anyhoo??
Well like some say...if you dont ask, you wont get LOL
God to me exists ...but HELLO It's just my belief..that is personal to me...I have the titter of wit to KNOW this
BUT...
"dear God..its me again BM...I need real in your face proof you exist...so please God, send me a sign, any sign...come on..its a tv just think a brand new 42" HD would look so sweet and I can rid of that 36" peice of crap once and for all...so what do ya say eh?? send me a sign..pretty please?"...if you do I will watch the God channel for a whole day...eeepp...im desperate i need a LMAO ridic..I KNOW thats what I think of this idea behind the thread
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Mar 20 2007, 10:56 AM) [snapback]1591414[/snapback]
From your standpoint this is just an imaginary being. For me He is not. I interact with Him daily. He is as real to me as my hand. I am sorry that you felt you were somehow constrained when you were involved in religion, but maybe that is the difference, I am not a religious person, I am not seeking a way to reach God, I am a spiritual person, I have a walk with God, because I realized there was nothing I could do to reach Him and He had already done everything necessary for us to have a true relationship.
I too am a very spiritual person. I just happen to be void of an entity that has always held me back from seeking out reality. Spirituality isn't a religious thing or a god/dess thing either. It has to do with how you feel about and deal with the universe and how it relates to an individual person.
BTW why do you always refer to it as HE? Why not a she? Just curious.
QUOTE(curiousity @ Mar 20 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]1591429[/snapback]
I too am a very spiritual person. I just happen to be void of an entity that has always held me back from seeking out reality. Spirituality isn't a religious thing or a god/dess thing either. It has to do with how you feel about and deal with the universe and how it relates to an individual person.
BTW why do you always refer to it as HE? Why not a she? Just curious.
BTW why do you always refer to it as HE? Why not a she? Just curious.
Good question..why always a HE..I too do this a lot..when i speak of God..I peg him as a he...thats it from now on im going to peg God as a SHE...pretty much like how Irish does
QUOTE(Mattshark @ Mar 20 2007, 03:37 PM) [snapback]1591392[/snapback]
Yes I am, there are many things in the bible that are unsubstantiated, including Jesus returning from the dead, is there any actual evidence to support this. It is considered debatable that the town of Nazareth even existed when Jesus was supposed to be born. Even the existance of Jesus is unsubstantiated.
I would consider looking at the book "The case for christ" its the story of Lee Strobel interviewing the strongest scholars around to answer the most skeptical questions. He did this interview as a skeptic and almost all of those issues are addressed.
Ill read an excerpt from the book.
Many Christians are unaware that skeptics have been asserting for a long time that Nazareth never existed during the time when the New Testament says Jesus spent his childhood there. In an article called "Where Jesus Never Walked", atheist Frank Zindler noted that Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, by the apostle Paul, by the Talmud (although sixty-three other Galilean towns are cited), or by Josephus (who listed forty-five other villages and cities in Galilee, including Japha, which was located just over a mile from present-day Nazareth). No ancient historians or geographers mention Nazareth before the beginning of the fourth century. The name first appears in Jewish literature in a poem written about the seventh century A.D.
This absence of evidence paints a suspicious picture. So I put the issue directly to McRay: "Is there any archaeological confirmation that Nazareth was in existance during the first century?" This issue wasnt new to McRay. "Dr James Strange of the university of South Florida is an expert on this area, and he describes Nazareth as being a very small place, about sixty acres, with a maximum population of about four hundred end eighty at the beginning of the first century," McRay replied. However, that was a conclusion; I wanted the evidence. "How does he know that?" I asked.
"Well Strange notes that when Jerusalem fell in A.D. 70, priests were no longer needed in the temple because it had been destroyed, so they were sent out to various other locations, even up into Galilee. Archaeologist have found a list in Aramaic describing the twenty four 'courses", or families, of priests who were relocated, and one of them was registered as having been moved to Nazareth. That shows that this tiny village must have been there at the time."
In addition, he said there have been archaeological digs that have uncovered first-century tombs in the vicinity of Nazareth, which would establish the villages limits because by Jewish law burials had to take place outside the town proper. Two tombs contained objects such as pottery lamps, glass vessels, and vases from the first, third or fourth centuries. McRay picked up a copy of a book by renowned archaeologist Jack Fenigan, published by Princeton University Press. He leafed through it, then read Finegans analysis: "From the tombs...it can be concluded that Nazareth was a strongly Jewish settlement in the Roman period.
McRay looked up at me. "There has been discussion about the location of some sites from the first century, such as exactly where Jesus' tomb is situated, but among archaeologists there has never really been a big doubt about the location of Nazareth. The burden of proof ought to be on those who dispute its existance."
That seamed reasonable. Even the usually skeptical Ian Wilson, citing pre-Christian remains found in 1955 under the Church of the Annunciation in present-day Nazareth, has managed to concede, "Such findings suggest that Nazareth may have existed in Jesus' time, but there is no doubt that it must have been a very small and insignificant place." So insignificant that Nathanaels musins in John 1:46 now make more sense: "Nazareth!" he said. "Can anything good come from there?"
Lee Strobel: The case for christ
QUOTE(Bill Zabub @ Mar 20 2007, 04:52 AM) [snapback]1591179[/snapback]
Thaphantum, you may want to look up the definition of Atheist. Not all Atheists are sure God doesn't exist. Some just don't believe in God. FYI for some of the others, it is possible to prove a negative doesn't exist, just not in this case at this time. If anyone can point me to some good anti-christian/anti-pagan/anti-atheist threads, I would appreciate it. I haven't seen anything yet that's anti-anything. Everything I've seen has been pro-something.
you may want to look up the definition of atheist... then right after that... you may want to look up the word agnostic
in response to the previous statement. Atheists don't believe in entities or anything metaphysical. Non-theists don't worship the gods or entities but may follow the metaphysical. Agnostics are on the fence pretty much as they're not sure about any of it and want to keep their options opened.
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