There is a site that sells dildos shaped like animal penis. Pls to not be banning me for mentioning that.

No, my only question was do you think its possible for people to be born with thos attractions... anything else is assumed by you...

as far as gay people are concerned... a few people have said that nobody would choose to be gay because of persecution... etc...

that may not be true because lots of people have stood up for what they believe is right and true... knowing that they would be tortured or killed...

as far as what gay people think... i can only speak about the one's i know...

my ex girlfriend... who started out as my best friend would always tell me that she thought she was gay... but she always thought it was totally up to her... she actually used to hate when people would claim to be born that way... she had a few gay male and female friends who felt the same way she did...

i also have 2 female cousins that are gay... amazingly both of them say they chose to be gay because they were tired of men... neither of them think they were born that way...


i don't have a problem with gays... i just think it's a personal choice... but it seems like when someone voices their opinion, some people act like it's the end of the world... as i said in the post... there is no right or wrong answer... i just wanted to see how people felt about the possibility of those circumstances arising...

as far as fetishes are concerned... as long as i remember, i've been attracted to pigtails... is that a fetish or was i born that way?
personally, i think it's a fetish... but who knows for sure...

the main reason, i see the whole thing as a choice is because when you are growing up as a kid... you don't look at people sexually... they are just people... at least, that's how it was with me... i didn't start being sexually attracted to women until about 13... i was in 7th grade... before that, i can't remember ever thinking about anyone sexuallly...

so i can't say i was born straight... i've just never found men attractive...

the fact remains that i COULD choose to have sex with men from here on out... if i wanted to... so, would that mean i was born gay but i just didn't know it for the last 24 years?

if a gay girl decides to marry a man and have kids and live a normal life and never touch a girl again... is she still gay?
it has happened plenty of times...

Err...kay.... now that we're schooled up on sex toys, here's something else:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199706/homo...ality-biology/2

Interesting reading.

Guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree. I see sex as penetration of the vagina by a penis. I do agree that in some situations, by sadists, that rape is about control and violence but I think that most of the time it's sexual.

I'm not the type of guy that see's too deeply into things

thanks for the link... i read that whole thing... pretty quick... but as the articles stated... they don't know if there is even a gene that causes sexual orientation... what they did find out is that the default brain setting of RATS is feminine...

but i did enjoy the read...

Who or what is the determining factor in deciding if something is a fetish or a genetic trait?

Not me, but it is obvious that there is a difference between sexual orientation and whether you only want to have sex with obese women, 9 year old girls, or a horse.

The default setting of all creatures is female, I believe. The human brain begins as a female brain; then after 8 weeks in males the brain is flooded with testosterone and the communication center shrinks while the area for sex grows to twice as large.

Someone is undoubtedly going to ask for a link. This is stuff I know off the top of my head. I'll try to track down a link tomorrow. Right now I'm about to head off for sleep.

how come women and men aren't added to that list? like the above poster said... who or what decides what is genetic and what is a fetish?

Some things are just natural, despite what the zoophiles I have run into say, having sex with other species isn't. How can you geneticly be orientated to a different species? Guess you just have to deal with these people to get it.

My professor in genetics stated that there are genetic factors in sexual orientation, but like all things it's a combination of nature and nurture that determines whether the person will prefer the same or opposite sex. A homosexual inclined male often has neurological alleles that would be more often found in females. The homosexual inclined male may not in the end be defined as a homosexual, he may end up taking a shine with females but have a more feminine approach to the relationship.

why couldn't you be? if it's genetically possible to be attracted to a certain sex... why not specifics about those sexes? like age, weight, height...

as a child, you are a blank slate... you can learn any behaviour... but you are not born knowing how a man or woman will treat you... or what kind of physique you will be attracted to...

True. The part, though, that I personally found the most interesting, was the part where they talked about what was called the "suprachiasmatic nucleus," and the similarities in size of this structure between straight women and homosexual men. Also, the difference in size of this structure between homosexual men and straight men.

Also, it is interesting to me because I added a link on my "Can Pleasure Be a Bad Thing?" thread that talks about a homosexual man who was treated with an experimental "brain pacemaker," as it was called, and he found sexual pleasure with a woman while a certain part of his brain was being stimulated.

That is because it develops later in life, a personal taste influenced by your enviroment. You aren't born to like that. I don't see how its completely impossible for someone to be born gay, brains are funny. We have all seen the animals having um, be gay in the wild, so its not that far out there.

Humans are pretty much just perverts, like car guy over there. And everything is a fetish. Seriously, everything. This thread is someone's fetish :3

Lol edited for *spam filter* that was great.

It's against religious mandate, and that has influenced things with a generally negative impact all over the nation. Think of it this way, being Manly is taught, not natrual. Males are born males, and that is entirely different from the manly concepts spread by those groups who just want to hate them, and penn them up by making them targets through inferring if your gay, you like little boys. If a little boy likes other little boys, he is usaully punished in some fashion, along with being isolated. Further, the manly clones like to harrass them, as it threatens their artificial viewpoint. And because of the manly thing, they like to be cruel.

If anyone trys to befriend them{and if you are male}, inferences are usaully made to link the one befriending them to either pedifile, or homosexual, depending on the age of the male who likes other males in that fashion that you are trying to befriend. Sexuality is in the mind, not the body, your body reacts to your minds prefrences. It does'nt matter if it's been turned into a bad thing.

Those who preffer little children who are themselves adults, should be kept from being alone with them, not banned. They are still human, and all adults mostly love children. Do you think of sex every minute? The home defense force has alot of personal info, more then anyone wants them to have. A gay guy went through before me at the airport, and they checked his id. Did you know that the police in his town, just because he was gay, told the home defense guys that he was a possable pedafile, simply because he was gay.

I felt as enraged inside, as he expressed outside, when he learned that. He was like, how dare they, i have never been that, or even thought of it. Does'nt matter, the damage was already done, without his even knowing. Thats the religious influence through those who hold those positions within our "protectors" ranks, who themselves are religious. It's a big mess that can only be settled by a nation wide reaction to the intrusion into the gay peoples personal privacy, and right to live as they are, without harrassment.

It is part of humanity, always has and always will be, despite the efforts of those groups who are inflicting their artificial viewpoint on the rest of us. The one's called gay know everything about being male, more then those who are trained in manlyness. If they should ever come out with a drug that inhibits it, that is the time for rebellion, on the parts of the rest of us that realize they have and always will be a part of us. To protect them. And we should, because they have achieved, and given humanity so much more then the manly crowd.

Just a hetero who is just plain male, my thoughts.

I think it's a case of both. I've mentioned before that I have three female friends who have chosen to be in commited relationships with other women, they will argue with you if you tell them it's genetic, they will argue with you if you suggest they are bi-sexual. In their opinion it was a lifestyle choice and the take it very seriously. They do not date men, they are in long-standing relationships with women. However, that being said, the vast majority of gay people I know (and I know a lot) do believe it's genetic. I agree with both concepts, that it can be genetic and that it can be a lifestyle choice.

At what age do you believe children are no longer a blank slate?

The whole concept of pedophiles creeps me out and in fact enrages me, primarily because it's something that dramatically affected a very close and dear friend of mine. It affected him to the point of killing his abuser then he was sentenced to 20 years in prison for the murder.

Pedophilia is no joke and there are varying degrees of it. The abuser in the case above was less about having sex with children, but more about gaining control of person and used sex as part of that control--it is not understood if the abuser was actually gay or not. The sexual abuse continued through blackmail and violence into my friend's adult years... yes adult. When a child is abused from a young age, that abuser has the ability to warp that young mind to the point where they don't really understand that the abuse is wrong. This is why so many of the abused become abusers. My friend was lucky to have received enough formal counseling to work though this so he does not perpetuate the cycle. I should note, he is not gay by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't like to talk about this, and he actually prefers that I don't beyond what I have said, because he's doing such an excellent job of putting it all behind him now that he is out from under the correctional system. He does feel that it's important that kids are made aware that there are such monsters in this world and that it is very important to tell someone, anyone, that there is a problem. This was his fatal mistake, he didn't tell until he snapped and did something very wrong. He also just asked me to note that this was not a case of parental abuse.

Oh and as a little interesting side note based on my friends experience... rape is quite infrequent in federal prisons. Surprising huh? Now apparently, county lock ups are another story, while it's not common, county tends to be less supervised, and it happens once in a while, but all in all, you're pretty safe from sexual abuse in the correctional system. Now you might get the crud beat out of ya for looking the wrong way, that's way more common.

thats so wrong. people become gay after watching barney too long.

besides pagans rock

i have to disagree with your view that religion is to blame for the outcasing of homosexuals... i have a friend from Kenya... he told me that they don't even have a word for gay in Kenya and never have... because it wasn't a concept that they had... from what he told me... that concept was brought to his country by other races...

he also said that if any man was found having sex with another man or anything like that, they would kill them both immediately... they would put a tire around their head and set them on fire... or behead them...

he told me that is has always been that type of reaction in his culture toward gay people... because as they put it in Kenya... it's not natural... nature seeks to reproduce itself... and well, we all know our biology here...

Hi thaphantum,

I think we can all conclude that you cannot compare Homosexuality with Paedophilia and Bestiality..... As most, if not all members, have posted that Homosexuality is about consensual sex between adults as opposed to the other two immoral, illegal and evil behaviours......

With regards to your above statement, I don't understand how you can feel that way, when you purposely lump gays together with criminals (i.e. paedophiles).....For someone who doesn't have a problem with gays, in at least two threads, so far, you condemn them and criticize them.....

I'm wondering, who are you trying to convince with your statements ?? Us or yourself ????

Just out of curiosity phantum, you obviously have issues towards homosexuals (hardly extreme, but we agree that it's not natural), but I was just wondering what you'd do to solve the 'problem'?

Why not just let them be?

please provide one quote where i condemn them...

i never said anything but... i think it's a personal choice...

so if you're going to make a statement, please post the exact words that i said that condemns them... i never said it was wrong or right... i just said it was a choice... nothing more...

as far as lumping them with criminals... homosexuality is illegal in some places if you want to be technical...

but you missed the whole point because you obviously didn't bother to understand what i was asking... i was asking could pediphiles and people who like animals be born that way? i never said it was the same thing... i just asked if it was possible...

would it make you feel better if i asked if people could be born to like the color blue?

maybe you should actually understand what you are reading before you comment on it... and next time you accuse somebody of something... maybe you should provide some proof...

but maybe you are just trying to convince yourself of your own self righteousness...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._gayanimal.html

wow... do people read anymore?

i'll say it again, since it's obviously not big enough in the original post...

I WAS READING SOMEONE ELSE'S POST ABOUT THE GAY BABY... SOMEBODY SAID THAT GAY PEOPLE ARE BORN THAT WAY... SO I JUST WANTED TO KNOW WHERE THE GENETIC THING STOPS... OR WHERE THE LINE IS DRAWN FOR BEHAVIOR THAT IS NOT SOCIETY'S DEFINITION OF NORMAL... THUS THE QUESTION ABOUT ANIMALS AND PEDIPHILES...

this question really has nothing to do with homosexuality, beastiality, or pediphilia... it has to do with what science can and can't prove through genetics... most of the people who responded here made it about homosexuality... because for some reason... you people feel the need to make an issue every time the word gay is mentioned...

it is just an example because of the thread i was reading... if the topic had been about murder... my question would probably have been about 3 different things... but with the same point... is it genetically possible...

Ok, ok...I read the original post hours ago, relax already...sheesh

So I guess you don't have a problem with them, I just assumed that you did since you're fighting this so hard.

lol... that was interesting... thanks...

flamingos are pretty gay anyway... lol (here comes the gay parade that will probably be mad that i said that)

but the flamingo is a gay ass bird... the only thing gayer is a humming bird...

the funniest part of the whole article though is where it said gay flamingos "adopt" babies.... lmao...

not really fighting... it's just that really dumb people keep asking me why i compare the three... when i didn't... i just wanted their opinions on genetic possibilities...

HOMOSEXUALITY AND GENETICS

The question remains of whether homosexuality is a choice or is it genetic. Many people argue that it is not a choice. Nobody would choose a life that is difficult and faces ridicule and discrimination. We do not know the cause of homosexuality, but scientists are starting to reveal some very interesting research that may proved that being gay can be genetically determined, or an individual my be genetically predisposed to be gay. It has been shown that among families, family members who are gay is very high. Over 60% of identical twins, if one is homosexual, the other is too. Non-identical twins, 22% are gay.

Several genetic studies have been done that appears to genetically link homosexuality. Pillard and Bailey did a study on twins and homosexuals. They compared the percentage of male siblings who were both gay with the amount of genetic material they shared in order to find evidence for a genetic link of homosexuality. Among twin pairs where one twin was gay, they found that 52% of the identical twins were both gay, 22% of the fraternal twins were both gay, 9% of the non-twin brothers were both gay, and 11% of the adopted, or genetically unrelated brothers were both gay. They concluded that because the identical twins have a higher percentage rate than other siblings, the idea that sexual orientation is genetically influenced is consistent. Some experts questioned Bailey and Pillars findings. They both agreed they had difficulty finding a random and unbiased sample of homosexual population. They also were not able to categorize bisexuality as being either homosexual or heterosexual, and did not allow for it to be its own trait. Because of this, experts felt this study could not determine homosexuality as genetic.

Another study done by Simon LeVay focused on the size of INAH3 nucleus of the hypothalamus. He wanted to test whether the areas INAH-2 and INAH3 in the nucleus were different in size not by sex, but by sexual orientation. By proving a difference in size, he could establish that the brains of gay men were similar to that of women's brains. He only found that INAH-2 exhibited difference in sexual orientation. It was two times larger in heterosexual men as homosexual men, and he concluded it was different because of sexual orientation, not because of a difference in sex.

Dean Hamer, a molecular geneticist also did a study which tried to identify genetic markers which could influence a person's sexual orientation. Hamer recruited male siblings who were both gay and created a family tree chart tracing the incidence of homosexuality among family members. He identified the X chromosome as the site for the genes that code for homosexuality. He analyzed the DNA of each pair of brothers and also analyzed the DNA of mothers, when it was available. Hamer thought that if the mother's DNA showed two sets of markets, one on each chromosome, and each of their homosexual sons shared the same kind of marker, than the sibling pair was deemed concordant-by-descent, which would allow Hamer to declare a genetic link to homosexuality. The biggest critique of this was that Hamer never actually found the homosexual gene.

In conclusion, a large amount of evidence is leading us to the genetic link towards homosexuality, but not entirely a conclusive one. (yet)

http://www.dowling.edu/faculty/Perring/wheelan.htm

where as pedophila is a mental illness.


pedophilia, psychosexual disorder in which there is a preference for sexual activity with prepubertal children. Pedophiles are almost always heterosexual males. The children are more often of the opposite sex (about twice as often) and are typically 13 years or age or younger; they may be within or outside the pedophile's family. Sexual fantasies, looking, or fondling are more common than genital contact. Sexual offenses against children make up a significant proportion of reported criminal sex acts.
The cause or causes of pedophilia are not well understood. Personality problems may be evident, and the pedophile often shows little or no concern for the effects of his sexual behavior on the child. Researchers have reported that psychotherapy in conjunction with the use of testosterone-lowering drugs has substantially reduced the desire in male pedophiles to molest children. See also child abuse.



educate yourself.

thanks for the input... the first part of the article is absolutely false... as i've stated before... people choose lives of ridicule and discrimination all the time... early Christians... satanists... strippers, pornstars... there a lot of people who choose lives that many people don't approve of... other than that... thanks for the read...

just a note - first 99.99 % of gay people are brought up in straight households , most have siblings brought up the same way. yet not all turn out gay. secondly if a gay male can take a 'shine' towards females then it is logical and follows reason straight men can take a 'shine' with other men. same arguement for women. isn't that bi sexuality?

I think that's a good point to make. The abuser I spoke of earlier fits this description quite well I think. The only gray area might be that his victims were groomed, starting about age 13, and he didn't lose interest after they grew into men. I've never quite figured out if he was a pedophile, or just a sadist. Perhaps a little of both, but we'll never know.

you have no clue. As a lesbian and knowing so since I was six ( but not the actual term or definition) and comming out at 15 I know for fact it is not a choice. When I told my parents at 15 , you know what thier answer was ? THEY KNEW ALREADY! ( really wasn't that hard to figure out.) My mom knew I was different even as a little girl. I have 3 other siblings all of whom are straight. we were all raised the same.( so much for up bringing)

if this is a choice for me then it's a choice for you to be straight. it works both ways . your ignorance is religious and fear based. educate yourself instead of remaining so. your opinion doesn't have any fact based in reality.

you asked the question ( which is offensive )and you got an honest answer. and yes it is not a choice. Would I change ? not on your life. would you?

just thought i would mention this... since it's ironic... i was about to go to sleep and started watching the science channel... and they are talking about animal reproduction...

long story short... there are snales that can change their sex at will... so they can be male or female... something about a mating ball and all the ones in the center can be either or....

they mate at both ends of their body... and depending on the end... that determines if they take on a male or female role in mating...

the last one in is always a male though... but if he connects to the other end... it forms a bisexual circle... lol

i'm just summarizing and paraphrasing what i hear... lol... that is crazy that this would be on right now though...

I guess this is why I've always been torn and just accept that some people make a lifestyle choice and others simply are biological. I say live and let live. I am a Christian, but my sect accepts everyone as equals period the end. We even perform handfasting for commited gay couples--we have a very high number of homosexual brethern because they are accepted like no other denomination (and no, it's far from being a new-agey denomination, in fact it's been around since the reformation).

I know a family with 5 boys, 3 of the 5 are gay which implies biological.

On the other hand, there have been cases where identical twins who share the same genetic code exacty, one is gay the other is not. Which implies lifestyle choice. And I have my three fantastic lesbian friends who will argue to death that they are not biologically gay, that they made a lifestly choice. It's rare to hear that, but there they are none-the-less.

At this time, there just doesn't seem to be enough data one way or another. To me it doesnt matter. What two consenting adults do in their bedroom is their own business. Just like me, a straight woman, my sex life isn't anyone's business.

you should try educating yourself... because if you have read other posts in this thread... there have been multiple accounts of people who know gay people who DO NOT agree with you at all... so that would make your opinion also... not based on reality...

the question isn't offensive... gay people SEEM to get offended at all questions directed toward them... but this topic isn't about gay people as much as you would like it to be... as stated over 3 times before... this question is about what science can and can't prove through genetics...

my ignorance to the subject has nothing to do with fear or religion... i'm certainly not afraid of any gay people and never will be... straight people either for that matter... next... let me get this straight... i asked a question about genetics... but i'm ignorant for asking the question? people remain ignorant because gay people get so butt hurt if anybody asks anything about it... instead of giving an answer, most gay people always throw that "that's offensive" card out there to avoid giving an actual answer...

nothing you said above has any relevance to my question at all... maybe you should educate yourself before making an assumption about what i know and don't know... and if you were offended by the question... why did you bother to copy and paste an article about genetics?

one other thing... if you bothered to read... i said heterosexuality was a choice too... so your just reinventing the wheel with your assumption that i didn't know that...

thaphantum, truly, if you were looking for feedback on just the science or the concept of homosexuality without the religious aspect included, this should have been posted in another forum, like the General topics forum. This forum is a religion forum and posts here at looked at with a religious view point. This is why you're getting a lot of agressive feedback. Don't be surprised if the post gets moved by the mods.

This may have already been said, but I don't know 'cuz I didn't read the whole thread...

Nobody can justly compare Homosexuality to Pedophilia or Bestiality, because of the simple fact that Homosexuality involves CONSENT on both parts. Animals and Children lack the ability to properly consent, so it's a horribly wrong thing to take advantage of them.

You understand?

If you're going to use 'big words' when you post, make sure you have a dictionary handy.....That statement says it all !!!



Struck a nerve, did I ?? 'If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen'....Isn't that how the saying goes ? Why start a 'hot' topic like this one asking for opinions, when you can't accept or at least respect what members are posting ??


Name-calling is uncalled for and against the rules....

What did you expect ?? Ofcourse people were going to read your moronic OP and see right through you....

thaphantum

I understand what you are asking. But for years people have compared these three things and they are doing it to prove that homosexuality is an abomination or a mental illness. That's why people are reacting to you like this.

But I think the actual answer to your question is "Yes people are born this way." Pedophiles really cannot control themselves. And they can't be rehabilitated to change. They can only be taught behavior modification.

So there's your answer.

However think of it this way. Men naturally are inclined to want multiple partners. Spreading their seed and all that. But they choose not to (some of them) Why? Well its a trade off in the area of love and family.

My main argument with the issue of denying gay marriage is that it stops them from having a family.

You are born gay but you can choose how to live. You could fake it and have sex with a woman and pretend to be married. Plenty of men have done that.

Also you say that there is no homosexuality in Kenya and then you say if you are gay in Kenya you are executed in a horrible fashion. So doesn't that discourage people from pursuing that lifestyle.

Being homosexual in my mind is a combination of choice and genetics.

Lt. Ripley I am curious if you are the youngest in your family. There have been some studies that show that the youngest girl in a family of a lot of kids has a tendency to be gay.

"people who like children" is a whole different ball game. Children are not at the maturity level to have relationships with older people, and relationships between the two are generally harmful or abusive.

Does homosexuality harm anyone? No. Why would you outlaw something that does not harm someone? Laws are to protect people.. homosexuality is not threatening anyone.



And why do they choose lives of ridicule? Because they desire something that is ridiculed. Strippers and porn stars do it because they want money. Early Christians were hardly persecuted (they did the persecuting). Satanists believe following satan is the right path in life. Gay people do it because they are attracted to the same sex.

WHY would anyone choose being gay if they were not naturally anymore attracted to the same sex? WHY? Nobody chooses a difficult path without a reason.

here here

There are all types of people from all walks of life on this forum, Gay and Straight, who have the right to be respected regardless of one's own personal views. This thread, however innocent the original question was intended, will provoke strong reactions and bad feeling. The title in itself has been construed to some as insulting.

I am closing this thread for the above reason and before it gets out of hand and warnings issued.