i thought about this when i was reading the other post that somebody made about the gay baby...

the opinion is that someone can be born gay... personally i don't believe it... but for the sake of argument... let's just say it's true...

let's assume that who you are attracted to is determined at birth and not a personal choice... where does it stop?

can a person be born attracted to children? or do you just write that off only because you think it is wrong to be attracted to children? if they can be born that way... should they go to jail for just being "who they are?"

what about being born attracted to animals?

what about being born attracted to old people?

i find it hard to accept that there has been any scientific advancement in this area... if someone could provide a link to an actual discovery in this area... it would be nice... so far, the whole argument is based on opinon... if it is found to be true... should the laws change to accomodate people who like children? because if that's the case... they don't have any control over how they are born... so what they are doing can't be considered wrong...

personally, i just think it's a cop out to escape accountability... but that's just my opinion... what do you guys think about the whole thing... from a religous or personal point of view...

i'm just curious as to how people would react if it is found to be true or untrue...

I think you bring up some good points. I'm not on the band wagon of saying gays are born that way, let's just say I'm still open to more insight before I sway in either direction.

Yep just your opinion, so far, thats the only thing you've said I can agree with.

IMO, you seem to be dead set on finding and posting the most outrageous issues. For what purpose I cannot imagine, but I do not think it is for your edification, ar to enlighten others.

Unless it is the light of the flames you are trying so desperately to ignite.

Here's how I see it:

Homosexuality is a genetic defect. They're born with it, they can't control it, may as well find a man and be happy.

Pedophilia is something someone develops due to either chemical imbalance or they had been molested themsevles at some point. It's usually the latter.

Fetishes like as beastiality...well, they're hard to work out...I'm guessing some people reach a certain point in their lives where they find 'normal' sex to be insufficient.

Oh, by the way, why's this in the Spirituality vs Skepticism section?

A lot of traffic comes through here!

What if God has decided that there are too many people on earth (not a far fetched scenerio considering that 30% of children in the world are on the verge of starvation)? One way he could approach the problem would be to send a plague or horrific natural disaster. A gentler way would be to make some people want to partner with members of the same sex. The two people involved would get to experience love (surely, one of life's most important goals/experiences). But they would not produce children, so the population would go down.

Why do people always believe that they know what God is doing and how he does it? For all we know, the rise of gayness in modern culture is part of God's plan.

When the Old Testament was written life was very hard, infant mortality was high, and the population was very low. In order for the Abrahamic culture to sustain itself, it was crucial for everyone to generate a lot of kids. For this reason, homosexuality was very bad. There's a phrase in the Old Testiment, "the sin of Onan", that many people think refers to homosexuality or masterbation. If you read the Bible, Onan's sin was that he refused to impregnate his sister-in-law after his brother died (Genesis 38:4). At the time, it was imperative that every fertile female reproduce as often as possible. That's not true any more.

Some things in the Bible apply to all times. Some applied only to the Middle East in 2000 BC. People in the Bible have slaves. In the modern world, that's WRONG.

We need to be very careful about condemning a big segment of the population for the manner in which they love. Christianity is not about condemning the people around us.

I've thought of that myself, it's a good theory (though I was thinking more along the lines of nature doing it, but to each his own).

not really arty , we have our little group of barflys LOL the regulars....

Well, people who are pedophiles, or commit beastiality are violating someone/someanimal.
Gay people aren't violating other gay people. As far as I'm concerned, they aren't hurting someone by being gay and they aren't taking advantage of someone who isn't able to defend themselves by being gay.

The beauty of neopaganism... Nature's doing it IS God doing it.

I totally agree. It's not abusive.

I have to agree with you...(I know...I know...shock gasp ) Just because someone has a sexual preference, whether it be for the same sex, or elderly people,that doesn't matter. If your sexual preference in any way violates anyone else, what so ever, it can't even be placed into the same category. It has been found though, that men and women that feel they were born in the wrong bodies, usually have a pituitory disorder. As stated above, pedophiles, and the like, have been found to have chemical or hormonal imbalances in the brain. I would like to ask you, since you're throwing out rdiculous ideas and comparisons, why didn't you think to throw in murderers and adulterers. Are people predestined to be believers in mythological deites? I feel that your question is extremely loaded, and there will be no right answer for you.

Homosexuality is not wrong because no one is getting hurt by being in a gay relationship.

Being a pedophile is wrong, because most cases, the pedophile does not care about the child other than in a sexual way, and the child does not no better, and is usually left with emotional scars. Pretty much same for beastiality.

anything that is not between consensual adults woudl include pedophilia and the other one.....this is dysfunctional sexual experssion and often the perp was once themselves violated and is doing what they were taught....4 out of 5 girls iwll be viiolated and 3 out of five boys, i find this to be a serious issue and a by product of a sexuality that gets it roots in repression, i would like to see more studys done on this...I can't but wonder too if alot doesnt stem from consructs that devalue and esepcially a kid and animals and women , this can't help, to be taught you are lesss than and worthless therefore man can do as he pleases these sort of teachings must be let go of for the sake of our children..A child has the right to be safe...As it stands there is no known rehabilitaiton for a pediphile....IMO this is far more serious than a thread on UM..... and no joking matter , rape and taking advantage of the innocnece of anyone is vile and despicable iMO ..and we should have standards as a humanity that we will not allow for any constructs that would encourage one to devalue themselves, to think they arent good enough as they are and must admit to being less than.... we put kids at risk when we teach as this... IMO....

I totally agree. Z of D, how would you define yourself in terms of religious affiliation?

Sex with children=not consensual.

Sex with animals=not consensual.

Sex with another adult=able to be consensual.

I don't see why it matters whether someone is born one way or another; what matters is how your actions affect another being's life. Why does this matter? Because if I cause pain to someone, I feel empathy towards them. Obviously, there are moments where I do cause pain, but I feel remorse and guilt afterwards. I'm not sure why you need an ethical code of right and wrong that has been indoctrinated into you; perhaps you lack such empathetic and sympathetic states. But to live such a way seems robotic to me--that you only don't strike someone because it has simply been wired in and your programming tells you that it's wrong; not because you actually feel for the other person or are able to conceptualize what they are feeling...which, obviously, is not pleasant feelings. Perhaps mine is simply wiring too, but the difference is when I cause pain to another I FEEL BAD; not, "Oh, that was wrong because my code of ethics says so."

Also, from reading your other posts, it appears you adhere to that code of ethics simply out of fear of what will happen if you don't. I would imagine it must be unpleasant to always live in fear.

Sheri you hit the nail on the head. Its about consent. An animal can not consent. A child can not consent. An adult can.

And hey maybe they aren't all born that way. I know some people I have my doubts about. But nonetheless they choose it.

I always think of pedophilia as being similar to rape. Until the segment of the person which deals with society has reached maturity (understands the repercussions of its actions) that segment can not give its consent. Therfore the sex is not consensual. Therefore, the adult is a rapist.

A cop out?? like I said to you in the other gay thread....you dont half paint a pic of a racist...so ill re-post what I wrote in the other thread


Tell me something...since you THINK you know what makes a person gay

What made you straight?? was it a choice?? did you wake up one morning and rubbed your hands together and said .."man im bored..i wanna do something intresting, I think i;ll be straight..and fancy women with big chests and blonde hair...yea i'll give that a go"

If you sit there and tell me YOU CHOSE to be straight...Im gonna come straight out with it and call you a lair....................why?? Cuz you cant explain as to what makes you feel attracted to the oposite sex...and what features you love best....you cant explain it...cuz you just happen to be this way....

If being Gay was just a choice...then why do a lot of them, find it hard to deal with?? Why do they fear it?...

In some countries they hang gays....do you think these poor gays would come out of the closet as a choice, knowing fine well they will hang for it??? GET REAL

Now back to what I was saying....What makes you think it must be a choice?? and NOT hormonal??? after all the hormones are responcible for your sexual desires, and they send messages to the brain...thefore it cant be a choice...not the same as going into a restruant and making a choice..will it be chicken or steak hmmmmmm what to do, what to do?? SO NOT the same


now you have dodged a number of my posts in other threads.........dodge this one...and i'll KNOW you havent a clue and you like to paint a pic of a racist and man do I hate racist people


Ohh and BTW...you mention why not be attracted to animals................uhh it was the straight man that was caught shagging a sheep....hence the term...you love the farm animals dont ya??


How many gays do you know that have raped and sexually assulted women and kids or if you like men too...how many?? See everytime I hear of this happening..its always the straight man to do this

true something has gone terribly array and as a humanity it is our responsibility to find out why and take steps to end this, this is horrible < most of us as parents have to be diligent as guides to educate our kids and not be too lackadasial IMO this is just tragic ...now we have lists of know sex offenders and there are alot and little attention is given this...most often it is swept under the carpet....As a mohter i have to be alert to every adult and so do my kids , you have to be safe instead of sorry....it bugs me alot so little is done...

The OP wasn't posting for flames as was implied, but because the gay baby thing is terribly intriguing.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here too. What's wrong with bestiality? Heck, we raise them, kill them, eat them, experiment on them...

Honestly, on a personal level I think it's horrific deviant behavior, but my point is, WHERE do you draw the line?

I recently read about a girl that was molested by her father for years. She tried to kill herself and exhibited major self destructive behavior for years. She traced it to the abuse obviously, but specifically it was GUILT! Can you imagine that the victim felt GUILT? Oh wait, it gets better! She felt guild because all those years of her father having sex with her, she was experiencing orgasms! She felt that qualified HER as being guilty! The father figured it was OK because it wasn't like he was raping her, and she had orgasms...so it was fine, right?

The point here is that people and society make the rules, and it's easy for the human mind to warp and twist these societal norms to meet their own needs.

Personally, I tend to agree with the folks here that lean toward the no harm, no foul idea.

I agree Sheri, it's heartbraking to know that our country will often times lock up robbers and burglars for a longer time period than child molesters, murderers, and rapists. That's a good indicator of what this nation truly cherishes.

Well said Sheri


I find it very hard to believe that people CHOOSE what branch to swing from...

Those that claim its a choice...obviously havent botherd their backsides to research it or even talk to a few gays and hear what they have to say...............somehow i doubt they would....

Man will fear what he does not understand...thats a fact


I cant bring myself to so much as to date a woman...I cant imagine it..cuz all I have ever known was to like men...but not all men only a certain type..of the Brad Pitt kind LOL but for the love of me i CANT explain as to WHY I am attracted to the brad pitts of this world...I JUST AM

Being born heterosexual or gay is very different from devoloping FETISHES, people aren't born with a fetish, they develop it. Like foot fetishes, and a fetish for stomping kittens, frogs, etc to death. Children, old people, and animals are a fetish that people develop.

I do as well. However, I view it as possibly having a greater impact on a person when they are a child. Don't get me wrong--rape, period, is horrible; my friend was raped in college. And the emotional scarring is huge.

Yet with children, there is an added aspect in that their brains have not fully developed. The experiences one has in their childhood and youth map out the brain's wiring for the rest of their life. While wiring continues on after the end of one's second puberty in their early twenties, the greatest chance for the most damage is in the younger years. This is why it is REALLY not a good idea for kids 16 and younger to drink or use drugs; their brains are still growing greatly and are very open to change at this, and earlier, stages.

So, there are certain things children cannot recover from, whereas an adult, who for the most part has had their neuronal pathways solidified, can. In both cases, as I said, it's horrible. But with children, you are dealing with a being that has no solid framework to deal or correctly cope with the traumatic experience.

I totally understand where you're coming from in your analogy of societal limitations, although it's a rather crude one. I understand that you feel "no harm no foul", but aparently society HAS to draw a line. Any man that can look at a child, whether it be his own, or someone elses, and become sexually aroused, she never be pardoned on your excuse of where we draw our societal limitations. It his daughter was grown, and they both decided consentually that they wished to carry on a relationship, while I find it absolutely disgusting, it's quite different then him forcing himself on his daughter.

No, no, no.....my best friend was sexually abused by her father from the age of 8 to 18. It was very confusing for her and she also tried to commit suicide several times over the guilt that he was in prison. That is exactly why pedophiles need to be stopped from abusing! To take someone and totally screw up their lives, cause them to feel guilt, cause them to not be able to experience normal relationships, cause them to possibly be promiscuous, etc. is absolutely wrong! Genetically wrong, morally wrong, psychologically wrong...wrong in every possible way!

As far as I'm concerned, frightening another being, causing it pain and fear, is BAD. Sometimes it's necessary but where sex is concerned it's NOT necessary. If you get off on having sex with a dog then buy a vibrator and fantasize about having sex with a dog. Don't subject a dog to pain and fear for your own pleasure. That's immoral.

Causing an animal to suffer in anyway is immoral imo. I know people will probably always eat them but they should at least kill them quickly with as little pain as possible, and they shouldn't enjoy killing them. Anyone who enjoys killing anything is just as much as a sicko as the ones who like to kill and harm humans. In before macho men flaming me :3

I hear you. Don't think for a second I was defending that type of behavior.

Its heart breaking we have to rally as one to alert each family of the pedophiles in our own neighborhoods, there is no studys done and absurd stupid ineffective groups that do nothing to help , they often re offend and their rights are protected .....We stand in unity in my neighborhood we know who the offenders are and mouth to mouth tell each other and we each look out for the kids, but there could be that one moment. WE have to make sure we make it so clear to our kids don[t talk to anyone you don't know ever for any reason, luckily we have cell phones now my kids carry them...I'm telling you i want some research and some help for these people and its men mostly is it a defect or what we need to know... , something has got to be done....,I myself have been approched so many times on so many ocassions, i can't jog or walk to the store its ridiculous and i have had to run home as an adult more than once....somehthing is wrong....I cryed about your friend ((HUGS))).

Crude?

Just kidding.

I'd like to make it clear before I get beat up, I was in NO WAY defending the molesters behavior in my earlier post. I was just pointing out that he used logic to make his guild go away (in a twisted way) and she couldn't use logic as she should have! It's apparent to a "healthy" mind that her orgasms in NOWAY made her liable for HIS crimes. But in hers it made it some how her fault. This isn't MY societal limitations either. I'm talking about society as a whole.
What we see as normal stuff here in the US is seen by some cultures as WRONG in a huge way too. Which culture is it where sex between a man and a male animal is more grave a crime that with a female animal? I forget. My point is here in the US we wouldn't normally even think to ask, "So was it a male goat, or a female goat?"

http://www.utexas.edu/opa/news/00newsrelea...rain000712.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...0_gayscent.html

http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html

Well there are a few studys that show it may be nature, not a choice.

Thank you Sheri! ((HUGS)) back! As a whole, our respect and love for children in this country is seriously lacking! My best friend is living the sentence because of what happened to her, and her father was released from prison after 4 years on good behavior. I really don't understand the logic they used in releasing him early. Of course he behaved himself in prison, there were no children to abuse there!

Ever hear of the drug called - date rape?? lGoogle it if you can...it will shock you http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/270247.stm

See a lot of men let their hormones take over, so much so, they are willing to rape and kill anyone even lil kiddies...thats how sick they are

It wasa man that went and made this drug - date rape...that goes to show you they will go to ANY lengths to have sex......so they use the date rape drug to the woman..by putting it in her drink...she then is drugged up to the eye balls and will let the man do as he pleases...

A lot of men have been convicted of this drug use on women..........

Me thinks the death penalty...and use it on the rapists and child offenders...yea that would put the fear of God into their sad lil lives

Bastards!!!

they often re offend , but her life is destroyed , ...gosh something is so wrong Uhma.....

I'm hesitant to post further on this thread. Because well I don't know what to say about all this except to say that consent of a child is not the same as the consent of an adult.

Sex is not just about the moment. It must be entered into with consent or it is something else entirely.

Yep.

I don't understand how someone could "chose" to be gay, or pedophile (I don't put them in the same boat by the way, it's just for the topic) but anyway.
How could it be a personal choice?
"Ok...so tomorrow I think I'll be gay, then the next day I'll be attracted to animals.
Oh, and this weekend, I have nothing to do, so maybe I'll be attracted to kids."
It doesn't work like that, you're born that way.

Sheri, who teaches that women and children are worthless, and men can do whatever they want to them? That is shocking.

Well, with or without consent, it's still sex.

exactly it becomes dysfunctonal and vile, nothing as it was intended....

Being hetero and being gay is not a fetish, but wanting to pork animals and children and fat girls or people in clown outfits, are fetishes. Its different. People are not born with a fetish.

Actually I would disagree with that strongly. Non consensual "sex" is about control, not sexual drive.

why do you assume i'm looking for a right or wrong answer... as i stated in the subject post... i just wanted to hear people's opinions... i didn't throw in all those other groups because you could go on endlessly... i just wanted to throw out the subject... appearently people do have very strong opinions on this stuff...

again... none of this is science... it's all opinion... because i know they don't test every pediphile, gay person, child molester, etc... to see fi there is something chemically wrong...

i've never been attracted to men... that's all i can say about that... so i can't say what makes me gay or straight... but i do know that the first time i was attracted to a girl... i was around 5... shayla... she went to my church and i still see her every now and then... and she is still sexy... she's about 6 or 7 years older than me...

you said they hang gays in some countries... they kill Christians in some countries too... but they still have the balls to stand up for what they believe is right... so you GET REAL...

i said my OPINION is that they make a choice... that's all it is... an opinion... i didn't see you offer any links to scientific studies that show otherwise...

i haven't dodged any posts... but when you have 40 people asking a question... it's hard to get to all of them... i don't object to straight men raping sheep... yeah, they do it... what's your point? i never said anything about gay or straight people and animals... i just mentioned the animals... you put sexual orientation to it...

lets see.. every man that molests or rapes a boy is gay... straight men don't view boys or men sexually... straight people are ONLY attracted to the opposite sex... so that answers your question about how many gay people rape people... the gay guys in prison rape other men... some straight guys rape women...

so you are wrong when you say that only straight men rape and molest...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/1,,2007110349,00.html You see? This is a fetish. FETISH. Do you people know the difference between being a heterosexual or a homosexual, and just having a FETISH? I don't think so :\

No, your heading reads "Homosexuality, Pedophiles, Beastiality, Etc." implying there is some underlying thread between them all. You did bring sexual orientation into it. That's the whole point of this thread.

Someone mentioned vibrators as a dog substitute in order to refrain from causing the dog pain. I am some what curious as to how a vibrator would do as such. Vibrator, from my point of view, is a phallic like device, I suppose some animals may have far greater level of sensitivity as far as the phallus in concerned, but I'd imagine that it would not be all too discernibly painful for a phallus to be inserted into a different, possibly larger vagina than to which it is normally invited. Given that dogs tend to lock, a certain phallic swelling takes place in order to contain genetic material, I'd imagine the pain being more to the human than the dog.
Though if you meant for it to replace the act of a man putting his genitalia into that of a female dog. I venture that a phallic device would not logically be used in order to artificially simulate a vagina. One might be more inclined to use an artificial vagina.
Though if you were suggesting vibrators such as a small egg vibe, I would not see that being a suitable replacement for neither an animal penis nor vagina. If one desired focused stimulation that would be found within such a toy, one would not have sought to go after man or beast for sexual gratification.