This video includes a fair bit of footage of the south face of WTC-7.

I've recently seen some people argue that, in addition to the south west corner damage, there is a 20 storey gash in the upper middle section that is obscured by smoke in the more widely available photographic and video material. However, this footage appears to show that was not the case. Although there is a considerable amount of smoke, it does thin out from time to time, affording a slightly better view of the south face. As far as I could see, there was no such catastrophic damage.

Further, there are some mysterious 'flashes' going off, apparently from within the building. The first few look as though they could be no more than paper twisting in the air and catching the light. Some of the others, however, are almost certainly not.

Interestingly, another video shows five or six similar-looking 'flashes' seen apparently coming from a helicopter that was circling the top of WTC-2 immediately prior to its collapse. I know I've posted about this recently, it's worth considering again, in light of these new 'flashes'.



That video, 9/11 Eyewitness 1 of 3, can be seen here. The 'flashes' start at around 19:17 and are repeated in slo-mo at around 20:20.

Coincidence?

wiki says the NIST report sighted a "10 story" gash in wtc7. I think this is a case of the debunkers inflating the circumstances. Much in the same way its often said wtc7 was a raging inferno. Heres another video showing the south side, but there is still about 20 stories which you cant see -

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=6186921835292416413

The flashes in the video you posted are interesting. I wasnt sure what "flashes" you were talking about but at 5:40 there is a very clear one in the left corner. I dont think this is any kind of reflection. At 2:01 you can see a shadow cast on a neighboring building which appears to suggest the sun was not in position to reflect on the south side of wtc7.

I don't think so either. I think it's definitely some sort of electrical spark caused by the collapsing/engulfed building. Electrical systems must've been popping and shorting out all over the place in there.

To take it one step further, it absolutely looks nothing like the precursor to any controlled demolition that I've ever seen. First, since the sound was obviously removed from the clip (in favor of yet more hip teenage music), we can only rely on our eyes. If the sound were included, we would've heard an extremely loud bang followed by several more, followed by the collapse of the building (if the collapse of WTC7 was caused by controlled demolition). In this clip, we see one flash here and there, randomly placed, leading me to believe the cause of the flashes were electrical in nature.

I think it's a case of believing the fire chief who looked right at it and said he saw a 20 storey hole.

you all..(de-Bunkers) have been given the gauntlet to PROVE this Gigantic hole at the pentagon repeatedly in the Flight 77 thread and NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOU
was able to provide photographic proof of this supposedly Gigantic hole sevel of us CT'S were in fact able to provide you with a plethora of photos that show how
wild that accusation truly is.......I dont need the fire chief i saw televised videos the morning of 9-11 that CLEARLY showed that your Accusations are Baseless
I have eyes I can see.why would i rely on what some Guy said? i dont care who he is...I saw what i saw and the photographic evidence supports a small 12 -20 foot diameter
hole

funny how you all move the subjects from post to post

Thanks for the rant, but this thread's about WTC7, not the Pentagon.

wheres the 20 story hole?
can you provide us photographic proof of this outlandsih claim? other than waht some Guy said?
I dont care if hes the senator of new york... where is the Photographic or video evidence of this
wild accusation? I havent seen any 20 story holes in wtc 7 and even if there were ,How does that
PROVE anything? simply put it dosent does it?.......


show us some evidence to support you conspiracy please? without any proof all you have
is another conspiracy . i wont hold my breath

Its that what the NIST report also said? Or do you take firefighters accounts over the NIST report? I have heard the hole was has much as 28 stories tall. Not everyone can be right about this. Just curious how big the hole was.

Lucky for you all that crazy smoke is in the way.

In the absence of photographic evidence, I've chosen to rely on the eyewitness testimony of some very credible people:









Fire chief Daniel Nigro:






Is it your belief that all these firemen were experiencing the same hallucination?

wheres PROOF?
you have NONE so therefore your simply Pitching a conspiracy theory of your own

I suppose completely ignoring a person's presented evidence while continuously asking for the same evidence is some form of debate, although an incredibly weak one.

HFB - what do you make of the quotes I just provided?

simple

Heresay

Hearsay is another word for rumor. Are you saying these firefighter quotes are rumors?

Did you even bother to read them? Can you at least admit that you refuse to entertain the fact that they might be accurate?

Circumstantial evidence
Heresay no physical proof of anything sorry
It dosent matter if i beleive them or not its
circumstantial unable to stand on its own in court
they are simply eyewintness reports No more credible
than any of the same types of reports we provide to
you all


sure seems it would be simple for you all to close this case
yet here you are presenting heresay as evindence or "proof"
sorry you have just a conspiracy of your own thats all
there is no concrete proof or substantiated evidence just opinion
and heresay

Once again I'll ask - what do you make of those quotes? Why is it so simple for you to dismiss them?

These are heroic men who lost a lot of brothers that day. Are they not worthy of your attention?

Please address the quotes and tell me why you think they're false.

Once again do NOT put words in my fingertips ok ? I dont do that to you do i?
first of all I never said I believed or Dindt believe any of your statements?
but you are a master at spin.and have certainly TRIED to establish that I have!!!
I simply stated, as i will again, since you are seming to have a hard time with
comprehending what im saying....

IT DOSENT matter if i believe, them or Not, it is STILL heresay with no physical
evidence in support of it, in a court of law this is known as "Circumstantial evidence"
Not in any form ,"Proof" of anything!!.....are these reputable sources? on the face value
id say sure.but it dosent remove the fact that its circumstantial at best

ahhhh the classic these Heroic men blah blah blah ...give me a break did you see anywhere
that i eluded at all to theyre character as men? because i Never did ,you are Juxtaposing
and poorly at that.I never said any of the quotes were false buddy? so i am unable to answer
your request transparency at its best

I don't know where you get this idea that eyewitness testimony isn't allowed as evidence in a courtroom. That's most certainly not the case.

Either way, set that aside for a minute. I'm asking YOU this question:

What is your opinion of the quotes I provided? Are these men lying? Have they been bought off? Were they all mistaken? Hallucinating? Ill?

Please tell me what you make of the quotes. This is not spin - it's a simple question. You obviously disagree with these men's assessment of the condition of the building, so I want to know your opinion of their testimony.

quite simply I dont CARE what these men "Supposedly" said
they didnt say it to me......and they have no physical evidence to
support theyre claims......so i dont CARE what this Heresay says
there is a COMPLETE LACK of physical evidence Period lets as usual
hinge on the minor details you all are too much are you the designated batter today?

Enough said.

he answered that question for you on page one Tk
quit baiting people Watch yourself Hugry this is how
i got a 3 day ban right here with what is happening
to you now

Thanks for the interjection, but I believe we've resolved the issue. He's stated he doesn't care what the firemen have to say.

I could also say the samething for the countless brave people who questioned what they experienced that day people like William rodriguez who risked his life countless times that day ask him what he experienced that day .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=43...iguez&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...iguez&hl=en

What does this have to do with the firemen's quotes?

Like i said


he answered that in like his 3rd post i dont understand why you chased that point some seven or eight posts later?


well actually i do bu again whatver you say is fine with me your entitled your opinions although where your entitled

to spin the words of what people said i do ont know i sure see a pattern in your postings though i for one will not take the time to

responds to your musings any further

Duh, I'm making the same claim your trying to make are you questioning the integrity of Mr Rodriguez? who also was the last known survivor out of the trade center . The difference is you agree with these firemen quotes because they support your theory and I support what Mr Rodriguez has to say because they go with my theory of the events that took place that day . end of argument so in the end as the others have said it's all hearsay period.

Unless you have some other proof of this hole.

I ask your opinion. You give it. Then you accuse me of spinning. Classic.

Nope, just the quotes of the firemen. That's good enough for me.

you have that right but i believe the scales of truth tip more in favor to Mr Rodriguez's story and the physical evidence most definitly goes with it as well . The level of destruction from the surrounding area at ground zero just calls for some other kind of energy source.

Look at all the blown out windows from the surrounding buildings what could of caused this ? Not a simple collapse ...Please

"Simple" collapse? If you consider the collapse of (2) 100+ storey buildings and (1) 47 storey building "simple", I'd hate to think what you consider complex!

Either way, you do realize you're comparing apples and oranges, right? Mr. Rodriguez was in the north tower, and I'm talking about the firefighter's accounts of the condition of WTC7 before its collapse. Not really sure why you're trying to wedge his testimony in a WTC7 conversation.

You are obviously avoiding his point. Why are some eye witness accounts good enough for you and others are not? You seem to only want to give credibility to those accounts which support your views.

What does the NIST report say about the size of the hole?

Most 9/11 TV shows won't even show you building 7, 80% of the people dont even know it fell.

If you ask me, it was taken down with some kind of bomb. Scientists measured how fast it fell, 47 stories in 4.5 seconds was too fast, if it did fall that fast it would be going faster than gravity.

Not to mention how the smoke was pyroclastic, what volcanoes and explosives do.......

19 hi jackers, 12 are still alive, If you think our government can't do this, look up operation northwoods. It was planned for a while now.

huh?!? knock,knock,knock....hello mcfly there is a link at the very top of this thread in the first post with the title "video" that clearly proves beyond any doubt how absolutely ignorant your statement is--to the point of being intentional and blatantly biased with an agenda void of reason and traitorous in principal

Nobody, especially not 'scientists', measured it at 4.5 seconds. In the most popular video of that collapse, in 4.5 seconds it was just reaching the roofline of the building in front of it, the bottom 2/3 of wtc7 wasn't visible. So it had collapsed only 1/3 of its height in that time. And that is based on the start of the collapse being when the north wall began to come down, in reality the building started collapsing well before that as evidenced by the south roofline partially collapsing and the penthouses disapearing into the building.

No, it wasn't pyroclastic. A pyroclastic flow is superheated pulverized rock, not cold, crushed concrete and drywall. If that cloud was pyroclastic it would have set fire to buildings and killed everyone on the ground for thousands of feet in every direction.

None of them are still alive. Some other people with the same or similar names are still alive.

Since the large gash in WTC7 was obviously facing the collapse of the towers, it was pretty hard to get a good picture of it. First of all, most of the people who had the angle to see the gash were rescue crews and other personnel, who had more pressing issues to deal with instead of taking photographs. I'm sure if they knew people would be questioning what was incredibly obvious to them, they would've brought their digital cameras. In addition to the people able to take such pictures being too busy attempting to save lives, the large amounts of smoke billowing from WTC7 also contributed to the large gash being hard to photograph.

This picture here is one of the best I've found that shows the large gash in WTC7:

And here is a pic from later in the day that shows the area above the 'gash' collapsed all the way up to the roofline. This building didn't fall all at once, parts of it fell well before the main collapse.

LINK is dead..

I will address your well presented quotes. All those are accurate and detailed as those souls could report. And they are all accurate as well, en quote. And technically they are all mistaken as well.

However, what is quoted and what occured are two different things entirely since no one has ever witnessed before the events of 911, before or hence. That includes myself and you also. This includes all parties involved in real time and thereafterwards. After analysis, the NIST report and others documentation, confirmed the three WTC structures did what was expectd in failure, based on facts after the event, without outside augment such as CD.

For myself, when first seeing the collpases of all these WTC structures on TV like everyone that was not there on hand: 1,2, and 7, my first reaction was CD. Same as I was standing there watching my sweetheart, Ph.D. Judith Resnik, Astronaut, ascend up on Challenger on STS-51L in 1986-- and my first thought was "who in the range safety office hit the destruct button on the orbiter..." It was only later that in that latter case the fact for what really happened overrode first impression; failed joint in the right hand SRB.

Same for 911 day--fact overrode first impression.

Same for those blessed people as witnesses who saw same. Along with those undaunted 300+ fireman and first reponders who gave thier life doing same.

RAMS

The first thing you thought of on 911 was CD? That would put you in a pretty small group of people. The first thing you thought of when the Challenger blew up was "someone hit the destruct button"??? What??? That would put you in a group all by yourself. Is the most unlikely posibility allways your first impression? Like if your dog goes missing do you automaticaly think "its been abducted by aliens"?

A firefighter says he saw a large gash in WTC 7 and its just a rumor. A civilian says they saw a missile hit the pentagon and the CTs claim its the gospel truth.

Having a degree in failure balances first impressions. As described, after the planes struck, or my girlfriend perished on Challenger, the first thought is like all human nature: we see through a glass darkly. And my first impressions, based on a life so visual, was that since I had never seen anything like either event, or imagines such, it was difficult to rationally reconcile at first blush. I am no exception to that human trait.

I also feel that is a very honest statement.

Then, known, learned fact and study and knowledge, married to reason, quickly overrides impression to embrace reality. The conspiracy ilk, in toto; UFOS, 911 et al, should embrace same. That was my point. Still holds.

I was convinced within a few hours for the 911 event and within 20 minutes of the oribiter failure, what actually occured for fact. That is not the same outcome for the conspiracy iilk, in toto.

Fact over feeling, logic over hysteria. Any and all conspiracy ilk should consider.

RAMS

NOTE: Several of my friends working flow on Shuttle, NASA hands, were with me at the launch site as I watched Challenger rise and then fail. Within a few seconds after the vehicle came apart, we all looked at each other in utter shock. Several of the orbiter prep team were hailed on their radios and took off running back to the LCC (launch control center). They uttered that "oh, chit, someone hit the range......" (moniker-NASA-speak: 'they accidentally blew up the shuttle stack)').

Here:
http://www.behold-the-rage.com/resnik.html

RAMS

All of this "inside" info and Nasa connections
and arguments with Art Bell...the loss of your "girlfriend"
in the shuttle explosion.....you correspondence with
Dr Jones and Dylan avery all of these Larger than life
attributes!!!!!


And yet here YOU ARE!!! wasting away time, and energy, on a little ole website in cyberspace!
All of this educationand knowledge, and everything your claiming....and yet somehow
you manage to find your way to Unexplained Mysteries? a site supposedly owned
and Run out of england..a relativly small message board

why would a pedigreed individual like yourself ,be WASTING TIME, AND EFFORT here??!
With a largely teenaged audience? funny isnt it?I know it sure dosent wash in my book

Just because people DISCUSS aspects of something DOES NOT mean
that they are claiming that its the Truth, or proof something that
seems to really be difficult for some of you to grasp apparently............

I am on my way to Quintana Roo, Mexico, to work on IJ-4. I have one month here to play while back in country. I was sent to the UM site by a NASA colleague

They are online too.......

RAMS

OHHH I know NASA is online
and I know the tend to frequent certain forums and particular
threads about different subjects as it seems you have sort of confirmed this?
No not really theyre all just words on glass arent they? One can be whomever
or whatever they like in cyberland eh?Including a Nasa scientist oh wait thats right
you dont actually WORK FOR nasa thats the rub isnt it?


whatever call me skeptical But your story looks a whole lot like a piece of swiss
cheese to this reader.you sure your Not a California or Wisconsin Dairy farmer?
again I find your story far too incredible to be believed on top of all that you
are a special effects expert too eh?

and here you are at UM and you were "SENT" here By a NASA colleague?
what were your De-Bunking skills called into play? or your Expertise in failure
or maybe its your special effects knowledge that is needed



Its Kinda like have a Big "Johnson" if you have one you dont talk about it
enjoy your time here

Can we stop the bickering about NASA associations that is going on across thread after thread. It is irrelevant. If you have nothing on topic to say on any of these subjects it is rather pointless keep the topics open.

lol, i was thinking the same thing. I did some research about Robert A.M. Stephens (RAM) and found some interesting things about jimmy-tall-tales. First on his website linked to above, he has 3 images from the Independence Day movie he claims (and copyrights) as his own art work. http://www.behold-the-rage.com/the_images.html

So, I looked for a credit for mr RAM listed in the cast and crew of Independence Day and found nothing. -
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800022581/cast

I also found an interview RAM did with some Greman web site where RAM states -


source

So "vexed" you think you can rip-off their art work???

RAM also seems to have claimed to have been a Navy Seal (on the art bell show), when hes not busy dating astronauts, working on major motion pictures and working for NASA. But this claim also seem fraudulent -
Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud

I went to VeriSeal to check their "hall of shame" but it was unavalible -
VeriSeal.com

In addition to the $60,000,000 lawsuit Art Bell filed against RAM (which he counter sued for $100,000,000) he also threaten the above site with a law suit -
Robert A.M. Stephens - Again! - Part I

There he claims to just be -



No where could I find evidence or claims that RAM has any "degree" even tho in this topic he posted "Having a degree in failure balances first impressions."

Google him. Hes an artist and has done art for NASA aparently but the rest of his yarns appear to be fake.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:yAMM-J...cd=10&gl=us

Oh, he also claims to has begun college at the tender age of 14 on an art scholarship but dropped out after 2 weeks. Most of his claims about his art carrear seem bogus as well.

I think hes a pathological liar. Thats my oppinion.

So whats you side of the story RAM?

All that you would ever want to know is at the website. Thanks to tangling with Art Bell, that is 100% of the source of this stuff since 1999. Proof in fact of what conspiracy and other nonsense and its psychos followers are capable of and why there are courts and laws.

So you know, I was banned from the LC, JREF and too many forums to count for the exchanges on topics like this. Same o same o.

So, can we also consult your CV as well. And, you rely of course on Google, just as YouTube, both as the end all of end all of all things.

Don't like the message, attack the messenger. Just like Art Bell and ilk. Same pattern as here in 'Strange 2'. I note your choices as sourced from the same psycho groups of UFO sites. Great research.......


RAMS

Wtf CV data? Feel free to consult what ever data you wish.

So did you work on independence day? If so, why don't you have credit in the cast and crew?

You did a 'google search' on myself. How incredible, as if no one else ever has done that since I use my name on the net and can be located on what I do for a living quite easily. A real researcher you are. Heavens, how could anyone defend themselves against a Google search results.

A CV is a tech term standard for one's resume data.

This is going to be fun here with posters like this.


RAMS

Man, you are so full of BS its pathetic.

I am going to make a prediction - the stills from Independence Day will be removed from your site pretty quickly, as I will be reporting you to 20th century fox.