ok, before i post anything... i have to put my disclaimer up... or some people will take everything i say out of context...

I'M NOT POSTING MY CONCRETE OPINION... NOR DO I HAVE A RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER IN MIND... JUST INTERESTED IN HEARING WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY...

if you aren't familiar with the story... read Daniel 2

"And whereas thous sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay" Daniel 2:43

my question is this... i know what the chapter is talking about because i read the whole thing... it's talking about the last kingdom to come... but what stands out is the "THEY" part of the text...

it also mentions the seed of men... so whatever THEY are... THEY are not men... i'm almost sure on that... what i'm not sure on is what they are...

in my OPINION... i think it could possibly be a reference to angels... i'm not saying that it's true or false... i draw my conclusion based on the following verses... but i want to know what other people have run across and what your views are on this verse...

Genesis 6:1-4
Matthew 24:37
Jude 6-7

I don't know whether they are Angels, however, "they" are beings that are not like us - they have names, but none we would know, they have knowledge, that we, as yet, do not have - we are probably equivalent to the carrot that is held in front of a donkey lol.

They will not cleave (unite) together because that would be as two, who are equal, joining together and so creating not something that could go forward, but only would it create something that would be similar - which may not be the goal.

Bearing in mind, this is only my opinion and not something I have read lol.

BTW, what made you question that part of the Bible in the first place?

I believe THEY to be the Nephilim.



undefined <Nephilim website


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

I believe its demonic angels..It says in the bible that Angels dont pro-create which could be the reason why it says this>>they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay

i never read that in the bible... can you point out where it says angels don't procreate? if you are referring to the verse about angels not marrying... you don't have to be able to marry to have sex... because there are passages like Genesis 6 that specifically refer to angels having sex...

i actually have lots of questions about parts of the Bible... that specific part is one i find interesting... because it just nonchalantly tosses THEY in there with no explanation... lol...

sort of like the wendy's chicken sandwich commercial...if you haven't seen it... there was a guy telling a story about a leprechaun and a unicorn... and then mentions wendy's new chicken sandwhich... and the person says.. "wait... wendy's has a new chicken sandwich" just something you don't expect

or maybe it wasn't wendy's... one of those fast food places that you don't expect to have a chicken sandwhich

Daniel 2:43 seems fairly controversial to me. Here is the same verse out of 3 different translations:


NIV
43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

KING JAMES
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Young's Literal Translation
43Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


Both the King James and Young's Literal Translation versions could support the angel theory. The NIV seems to be implying "mixing" of some sort among people. It could be referring to religion, culture, race, a lot of things.

Out of these three I believe King James and Young's to be the most accurate as they seem in accordance with the verse in the OP.

i would have to agree on all points above because the mixing of religions, culture, and race are all still "seed of men" doesn't explain THEY... thanks for the other translations...

Possibly Nephilim or any number of beings that could love a human and yet are not human. We don't know every being that exists and could love a human.

I'm not sure if anyone will be able to give a definative answer to this question, but the most reasonable to me, has always seemed to be the Nephilim. It states in Genesis Chapter 6, that God sent the Nephilim down to earth, and they fell in love with, married, and had children with human women. They all became so Wicked, that God decided to kill them all, but it states that they will come back to earth, and have children with human women again. I at this point, can only speculate that maybe God was scared that the world would become wicked again, if he let the Nephilim marry the women again. Again, purely speculation.

it seems most likely... but i feel the need to correct you on one point... you have the story right... just the wrong names... according to jewish folklore and a few other sources... the nephilim were the offspring of the b'nai ha elohim(sons of God)... so basically everything that you said, just replace that with b'nai ha elohim... or angels... whatever you want to call them... the name nephilim means "fallen ones" but they aren't the angels themselves...

i'm trying to find the jewish folklore story about the angels of fire and ice... the story goes that it was a bet between the two angels who could create a better race than God... one went down and had sex with women.. and another went and made demons... if i recall... does anyone know what i'm talking about?

Yes I will research it for you man for sure. And also forgive me if im wrong and Ill let you know if I have misread something. I know they were able to have sex but I could have sworn it mentions they could not procreate but I will research it for ya and hit you back.

O and to add to phantum I remember where they had had relations with women and it brought the creation of Giants so obviously Matt 22:30 IS referring to just marriage and not sex. I will look further and see if I can find anything else also because alot of people attribute that passage as non procreation from angels when in reality they did so in the OT creating Giants on the earth.

I'm sorry, I must have gotten a different version then you my dear. In some versions, it plainly states Nephilim, and in at least one other, it simply just says fallen ones, and in another version, it just said the sons of God. I was under the impression that all of those 3 were the same. I'm quite confused now I also have not heard of your jewish folklore story, I'll see what I can do to find it.

As I fully believe in Gods angels...I'd say you are on the right track then...angels sounds right to me...but hey thats my opinion

I never heard of an angel going down to have sex with a woman...but yea I have heard of Satan being one of Gods most fav angels then he fell...you know the rest


Tell me do you have a strong belief on angles??

i believe they exist... and i believe they are active all around us... i wouldn't say i'm obsessed with them... but just the idea of what they are and what they are capable of is very interesting...

Genesis 6...

Ohh absolutely...thank goodness you also believe LOL...Istrongly believe they most certainly do exist

Man you should read some of Anson Kails posts on angles..they are so beautiful and so inspiring...I believe she has seen one

I pray to God to send his guardian angles to protect my lil girl every day...

Say do you ever watch the discovery channel?? it has some great documantary shows on angles..people that have seen them...even one or two caught on video...

this woman was out driving one night...her car over turned, she crashed...the CCTV cameras where near by (security cameras)...it showed a weird shaddow near her wrecked car ..then later he reported how she felt someone pull her out of the car...she hadnt a scratch on her...

Taking the skeptical view here that primitive peoples can and have viewed more advanced people as 'god-like' or divine beings. It is possible the ancient, primitive peoples of Canaan met a more advanced people who impressed them so much they attributed divine aspect on them. In the oral traditions handed down they would describe themselves as 'men' and the more advanced people as 'others' - 'not-men'.

All speculation of course, but I wanted to add another POV into the discussion. See people's thoughts on alternatives to a divine cause.

I see alot of fallen angels...sadly....They put off a wreched dry tingling feeling when they manifest (its like an electricity, kind of like when people get scared and get chills but this is much much more intense)....sorry if this is going overboard but Ive seen these alot and the fallen angels (err demons) are NOT pleasant to be around when manifesting....This has been going on since I was about 3-4 yrs old

I watch DC all the time... but never seen the special on angels...

lol... this may sound crazy.. .but i've met a couple of angels before...

that's crazy... lol... i couldn't even imagine experiencing something like that on a regular basis...

how old are you when you first realized what they were...

I don't think it sounds crazy thaphantum...not one single bit crazy

I have not seen an angel....but who says we have to see in order to believe??

I believe you when you have said you have seen...maybe when you come back here, you can feed a few stories on your experiences thaphnatum...I for one would pay full attention to them...I love hearing stories on angles

PM them to me if you like...either way..i want to learn a lot more on your experiences


Cheers

WOW...

See here's the thing hairston...

Ever hear people say - they believe that babies and young children have seen what we class as the paranormal?? or if you like, angles?? and some like to do a study as to WHY it seems that only kids/babies see this...(speaking of a lot of cases)

I prayed non stop for my kid to be fully protected by angles...for her to be safe and happy...a happy child...people have commented on how happy my girl is

I noticed that from she began to notice things around her...she used to be giggling with me one min...babbling away...then stopped out of the blue,, looked up towards a blank wall in the room, STARE at it...then laugh and her eyes would look as though, they are following something...and she would have her eyes fixed on it...

I look up and see nothing myself, then i look back at her and there she is, looking and smiling ...laughing as if something or someone was there, that only she can spot, that is making her laugh....I even made a thread on it once

nearly every day, she sits in her cot..doing the same..and giggling away to herself...she is always safe, and always such the happy lil one.......she outshines her own mother lol I admire her happy lil attitude...I belive angels are with her

I dont ever see angles...but I still believe in them being around

Maybe you too will come in again and tell a story on your own experience

Anyhoo guy, I look forward to hearing your experiences

cheers

How about the Alien race breeding human-Alien mixtures?
Sounds like clay and metal with sulfuric blood...yuk.
Oh, i have an Angel too, and also saw Angels when i was 4.

More proof that a child at the age of 4, has seen things like angles...proves my point

If you want to talk more about it...please do

I still remember my life since one year old and at the age of four,
i saw 5 heads with wings flying over me. No magazine, no tv yet.
Where will i get that information?

A skeptic would say...this is just a childs wild imagination.....because what man doesnt understand, man will also throw others reasons for these things...to remain skeptic

I believe you didnt have your visions drawn in by TV or anything..you KNOW what you saw....its your experience....you cant prove it, but how can one prove something like this?? its a personal experience to you and others like you, that are in the same boat

Can you tell us more about what you have seen??

It was already going 6pm and getting dark and just finished playing outside.
Then i saw 5 heads with wings around the neck (although they seem no neck)
They are circling me about 4 meters away but i'm not scared.
I didn't tell my mom about it, thinking it's just a normal thing.

I really can't escape your arrow bec!

ha ha

Well I believe you may have been seeing them before that....just so happens you don't remember? a lot of us will only remember the odd thing or two at the age of 4 or 5...we all remember things that stood out...if that makes sense to you??

Like something that may have made you feel amazed?

Something that made you scared?

(I hate to say this next part)...But sometimes something that disturbed you

those things in your young childhood would stick in a persons mind.........we cant explain why?? they just will


I mean I don't know why i still recall seeing the figure at the bottom of my room from I was 8 or 9 yrs old...how I froze up...could hear my dad down stairs, was too scared to call him up...so I pulled the quilt over my head, and hoped for it to go away...all I know is that very moment I was scared...I prayed please God lemme go back to sleep..then i wont see it...every time I looked it was STILL bloddy there aaaacccckkkkkkk.....

WHY do I not remember all the rest of the experiences...jus that one from that young age??.............cuz it stuck in my mind...not by choice lol...it had some scary weird effect on me I guess

Just like when I was 4 yrs old...I witnessed something happen between my mom and her brother Dan....I remember the very day as if it where yesterday...I remember the clothes I wore, my mom wore..and what her brother worse...on the day I wittnessed something disturbing..and violent (real life stuff)...............I am 32 yrs old now..and back then I was just 4 yrs old...that was 28 years ago...imagine how I BM can remember the events in detail from something that happened 28 yrs ago....WOW?? well yes and no...cuz still to this very day, I havent been lucky enough to meet my moms bro and tear him a new arse...(been trying for years to track him down just to hurt him badly)...but anyhooI believe that stuck in your head, because it amazed you..and to me...you couldnt have made that up LOL

Aliens or Angels.......take your pick.........B





halfhandshuffle:plasmatics-headbanger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAR0IRzP2LM

No need, i have both of them plus one beast.

I would say, my childhood was very peaceful.
I don't know, but i still remember it all since one year old.
I don't have to bookmark it, it just there in my brain.

You know if I told you an age I would be lying....I really dont remember man but they have been active in my life....I wasnt able to actually discern these until I became a christian then I started to feel their presence. Trust me I dont get kicks out of it I can say that much. There are times when I cant even sleep at night and I have never had any mental problems or things of that nature at all....There is a purpose for everything and I see it that God is doing something great in my life even when I cant see what it actually IS.

I truly truly believe that babies are protected by God because they do not have the acknowledgement of sin. Thats why I dont believe when babies die that they go to hell. Now some people say well we are born in sin...Yes that is true but also remember that if there is no acknowledgement of sin then God isnt going to hold a baby accountable...In the christian world view Jesus was born in a fleshly body like us but he never sinned even though He came in that flesh like all other babies did ....Thats why I believe that children are able to witness the supernatural. It seems that sin clouds your spiritual eyes and it makes it very hard to discern. I think that may have been the reason for me seeing things when I was little...then there was a time when I couldnt up until I got saved then I started getting hit but with a new level of discernment...which is how I started to feel the presence of a demon when it manifests...its VERY eerie and you can feel the atmosphere change....its like a fear eminates off of them even if you yourself are not afraid...Now this is the same thing with God which is on a completely different level and of course without the FEAR but a very very strong peace and a Love that surpasses my knowledge. Since God is spirit you cannot see Him but you can definitely feel him and its the most amazing thing to ever feel....this is why I am firm in my beliefs...this stuff is VERY real....I could write a page and a half about this subject but Ive got to go for now....If you would like send me a PM and I will tell you some more about the stories ive witnessed....sorry guys for spouting off again : /

Edited for spelling and wording

Dont be sorry for spouting off hairston mate...pm me and like thaphantum...tell me the stories..I for one want to read them..so feel free please do

K....Im about to go eat with my family for my moms birthday and when I get back I will try and do that for you....ttyl!

hairston please pm me and share your stories w/me also. You did once, and even though I never took the time to respond to it (sorry for that), I really did enjoy it.

your only viewing the KJV - and in part . it makes sence if you relate it to the rest of the passage/dream that Daniel is explaining.

31 "You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 "This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 "After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
"The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy."


'they' are the people from various kingdoms who will not become united. Kinda what's going on in the world now and all it's foolishness. One thinking it is better than another for whatever reason. verse 44 points to it being a future event which seems to suggest an end of the world vision.

a better question is in Genesis ---- where God says 'let us' create man in ' our ' image. implying multiple gods that look the same. humanlike. therefore it can't be the 'trinity ' as described by christanity. the holy spirit has no form ( although it is viewed as a dove or fire). and God appeared as a burning bush instead of a human like form.

and

How Many Gods?

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. (Deuteronomy 32:8 RSV)

that still doesn't explain "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men" they are obviously something other than people...

as far as Genesis... the word used in Hebrew is "Elohim" it is a plural word, but always used in the singular form.. so it did not imply multiple God... and why couldn't it be the Trinity? that would be 3... 3 = us... for that matter any number more than 1 = us...

nobody made the argument that the Holy Spirit had a form... He still existed... so i'm not even sure what that had to do with anything?

what's your point about the burning bush? God also appeard as handwriting on a wall to the king of babylon... can you be specific about what you are getting at?

1 God... 3 Personas...

we are limited by human experience... we can only talk in 1,2,and 3 person... but God can talk as Himself about Himself.... which would be 4th person i guess...

also thought i'd throw this in for you... Adam was made in God's image... every other man was made in Adam's image... but one key thing people tend to forget is that adam sinned and changed everything...

possibly even his physical image... for all we know... Adam could have been created a spiritual being... we don't know... we can only assume...

and for someone who is a stickler for details... you sure didn't noticed that God said... "let us create MAN in our image"

it didnt' say men... just 1 man...

I got one from thaphantum...it was really good...and it made perfect sense too...but its best kept in a PM...cuz stories like that and others like it...may be torn to shreds by skeptics...so its best to read them in private

However if BM here wanted to tell a story of her own...BM will do LOL

Wanna know what I have noticed in all angel stories?? that each one I have read, all seem to have seen these angels at an early age of say 4-5 yrs old.....

Could this mean that angels are mainly there for children?

Possible??

hmmmmmm me thinks im on to something

A lot say - God the Father...God the son...& God the holy ghost/spirit

3 gods as one???

just 1 God... it's like saying...

Becky the mom... Becky the college student... and Becky the wife...

h ha ha LMAO maybe I am all 3 muhaaawwhaahaww

Nah You have to understand that some will see them as three Gods...some will see them as the Gods IN ONE....thats how it goes..people have different views

I just believe God is one...no son no holy spirit yadda ect..just one thats my belief

your belief differs from mine....but isnt that what makes us intresting ...being different??

Now back to angles......

The reason why children can see the supernatural is because they have no sin....They may have been born into sin but have not committed a sin due to not having the knowledge of such....When you have sin in your life its hard to really see those UNLESS!.... you practice some types of witchcraft or other known demonic activities involving the occult...And in some cases they still dont know what is going on but Ive seen some that have some seriously twisted doctrines.....I tell you what if youve ever seen an exorcism in real life you'd probably change your opinions on the supernatural ...and no im not talking about schyz or brain disorders either...

My Becky was not born into sin...she was born into love, and lots of it, we dont believe that having a child out of wedlock is a sin, please understand. See I once lost a child, then I prayed to God, over and over after all the times when I had failed, I lost count, so I asked God to grant us a child, please God grant us one, and I told God over and over, my real reasons, as to WHY I wanted a child. God I believe did just that, he granted me a child, so therefore if it where a sin to live with my life long partner, God may well have ignored my prayers, but see, he didn't, therefore, you must understand, that that's how I dont see it as being born into sin..just being born into love...she has two loving parents, that she lives with, thats all she needs.

Take my brother and his wife, when they where BF & GF, he got her pregnant, she just happen to be the daughter of a minister, who made them get married BEFORE the baby was born, actually 4 weeks before it.. Now look my niece is now from a BROKEN home....so I ask you for the millions of kids that come from broken homes, when you look at the ones that are STILL with their parents, and their parents are STILL together, unmarried but HAPPY. I have been with my partner years longer than my brother was with his partner, but difference is, me and Gary are STILL together, we areNOT MADE be together like some marriages, she ole Shot gun weddings lol...NO we are together because we want to be...I know a lot of marriages are together cuz they want to be too before someone comes on and says BM but blah blah LOL

I think you are right, a child has no knowledage of sin...anyone that says they do, are just being thick!!
So yea maybe thats WHY they see angles

I haven't seen angles, but have felt them close, cuz I am a firm believer in Gods guardian angles, I pray to them for protection all the time, to guide me....so I believe they are always close, regardless if I have sinned or not

O no im sorry BM I didnt mean that "born into sin" like the household or the circumstances....I didnt mean it that way at all and sorry that i sounded like that...I just meant everyone in general....whether it be a child out of wedlock or in wedlock God has His hand on babies and I believe that wholeheartedly...God will protect his children

so I believe they are always close, regardless if I have sinned or not

I believe that too BM...I think angels are at some time present with everyone

Ohh absolutely hairston 100% with you on that....if you believe hard enough, they are there always watching over you

I once had to fly over to North Carolina on my own, I was scared at 1st, but I placed my faith and trust into God to send his angles with me, to guide me all the way over, because it was one long trip. When i hopped on to the plane, I had forgotton about the angles, but felt so at peace, and not scared at all, I even found it easy to find out where to go ect, it was as if i was being guided!!


It's ok hairston, I understand you, I know why you believe that a child is born into sin out of wedlock, I grew up with that coming from religion myself once, that's why I can relate to what you whre trying to say, therefore I felt now i had to explain to you what I now believe. God does indeed have his hand on all babies

Hey for all I know I too may have seen angles as a baby, but too young to remember..........guess what?? Someone was looking out for me when I was born and the 1st year of my life, I spent the 1st year of my life in a hospital, I had fluid on the brain and other problems, I was once sent home to die, my father was not happy, it was heartbreaking to let me just die. He took me into the city hospital instead, then a different doctor saved my life...it was also the help of family prayers to get the right doctor to help me live...and here I am..thankfull