While reading through the forums I noticed a lot of misunderstanding concerning the Trinity...
before I start... i DO believe in the Trinity...
some of the misunderstanding are simply because you "don't see" or "hear" with what the Bible refers to as your spiritual eyes and ears...
one point that was made was God's use of the word "us"... which they ASSUME to mean that there were multiple gods... but a few minutes of simple research will show you that whenever the word "God" was used before He used the word "us"... the Hebrew word used was Elohim...
the signifcance of the word is that Elohim is a plural word in Hebrew... but the context of it is ONLY used as a singular noun... for example... Genesis 1:1... "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth."
it is also used Genesis 1:26 (creation of man)... Genesis 11:7 (scattering of people)...
so, in the Hebrew, it is obvious they are referring to one Being... but with multiple aspects...
the best and easiest way to describe the trinity is this...
lets assume for a minute you are a woman name Tina... who is a supervisor... and you have a kid... and you have a car... and you are very smart... you would be...
Tina the mom... tina the daughter... Tina the driver... Tina the genius... Tina the supervisor
just because the word Tina appears in front of every title that you have, doesn't mean that there are 5 different Tinas...
the same can be said with God the Father... God the Son... God the Holy Spirit...
all refer to 1 God with three different aspects or titles... or whatever you want to call it... further more... in my OPINION... every person on this planet consists of a MIND a BODY and a SPIRIT...
a deep studying of the Bible and God will actually lead you to seeing how each of the aspects of God coincides to MIND, BODY, and SPIRIT....
God the Father is somewhat distant, a mystery... and not fully understandable... but talks to us... just like the MIND
God the Son... came in physical form... The Body...
and of course... God the Holy Spirit... is obviously a spirit...
well hope that clears something up... i broke it down as simple as possible... but that's the only way i can think to describe it that makes sense to someone that doesn't understand... do with it what you will....
Full Version: The Trinity - A Brief Explanation
I was raised to believe in God the Father, God The Son, & God the holy Spirit...as the same God
But see I only see God as the father who happens to be a holy spirit
As for me I guess I can be - geri the Mother, Geri the hard worker & geri the funny one LMAO aka BM although people tend to call me Becky, when Becky is not my name, its my daughters name LMAO
Now before someone quotes me in saying but BM He is the son too...wait...thats your opinions and your belifs...I have my belif..y'all have your own belifs ...each to their own i say
But see I only see God as the father who happens to be a holy spirit
As for me I guess I can be - geri the Mother, Geri the hard worker & geri the funny one LMAO aka BM although people tend to call me Becky, when Becky is not my name, its my daughters name LMAO
Now before someone quotes me in saying but BM He is the son too...wait...thats your opinions and your belifs...I have my belif..y'all have your own belifs ...each to their own i say
In the spirit of fairness and progress....can we change the trinity to God the mother/father, God the daughter/son, God the universal spirit. 
QUOTE(bee @ Mar 25 2007, 08:40 PM) [snapback]1599449[/snapback]
In the spirit of fairness and progress....can we change the trinity to God the mother/father, God the daughter/son, God the universal spirit.
You can do whatever you want, but Bible-believing Christians refer to Him, as Him, because that's how He refers to Himself.
Thaphantum, I think that is a very good explanation. Cheerleaders:
QUOTE(bee @ Mar 25 2007, 09:40 PM) [snapback]1599449[/snapback]
In the spirit of fairness and progress....can we change the trinity to God the mother/father, God the daughter/son, God the universal spirit.
You go girl LOL God the mother/father i like that LOL
QUOTE(bee @ Mar 25 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]1599449[/snapback]
In the spirit of fairness and progress....can we change the trinity to God the mother/father, God the daughter/son, God the universal spirit.
as texas girl says... He refers to Himself as a he... so why would we call Him a her?
Jesus was a man... so again... why would we call Him a her?
The Holy Spirit transcends the universe... so why call it the universal spirit?
can we refer to you as a he in the spirit of fairness? if no... why not?
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Mar 25 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]1599462[/snapback]
You go girl LOL God the mother/father i like that LOL
Actually, in Gnostic mythology there is a more balanced conception of the Trinity....God the Father, God the Son, and the Mother goddess Sophia (wisdom). And for Gnostics, the Eucharist recalled the passion and suffering of the goddess Sophia as she searches for her redeemer Christ.....this is a myth/metaphor for the idea that we must seach to discover the inner christ within us.
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 25 2007, 10:01 PM) [snapback]1599474[/snapback]
[can we refer to you as a he in the spirit of fairness? if no... why not?
Lol....you can if you want to....but I am physically a female...this I can prove, empirically....although you'll have to take my word for it!!
The references to God as male are, at the end of the day, words on a page, unprovable but accepted through the tenets of traditional, religious faith.
Not saying this to upset you..but a non physical God probably wouldn't have a sexual orientation..thats the human condition, to be male or female, depending on the hormones recieved in the womb.
And in fact, the idea that God can manifest in three persons was another pagan creation "borrowed" by the Christians from the ancient Egyptians.
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
QUOTE(Horus Christos @ Mar 25 2007, 02:20 PM) [snapback]1599505[/snapback]
And in fact, the idea that God can manifest in three persons was another pagan creation "borrowed" by the Christians from the ancient Egyptians.
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
i've heard the same exact argument made many times on this site... the only difference is that people keep citing different religions and myths as the source... i wish you guys would make up your mind... and the story of Jesus predates every religion on the planet... you might want to do some research on the mazzaroth... it was a tradition passed down from adam... to every culture on the planet... and it is indeed provable... but do some research on the mazzaroth and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about...
QUOTE(Horus Christos @ Mar 25 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1599505[/snapback]
And in fact, the idea that God can manifest in three persons was another pagan creation "borrowed" by the Christians from the ancient Egyptians.
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
"Being one I became Three, Amon, Ra, Ptah. Hidden in his name as Amon, he is Ra, his body is Ptah. He is manifested in Amon, with Ra and Ptah, the three united"
Osiris and Horus were also considered one and the same, the Father and the Son. And like Jesus Horus was crucified between two criminals, died, was buried, and resurrected on the third day.
These are ancient and powerful myths.....Christianity is just the most recent incarnation of this myth...and the key to the myth is to know that the divine spirit is in each of us, and we must crucify and kill our lower animal emotions in order to resurect the christ within each one of us
These attempts have all been shot down already....Most of the scholars that study these other religions say that they have no comparison and that most of them were created AFTER christianity....I have some links if you would like them of SOME of the religions.....they call them the copycat religions and they arent really in any debates with scholars anymore....mostly ACHYRA S made these rediculous claims.
OK...I looked up Mazzaroth on wikipedia as I have never heard of it before..apparenty it only appears once in the bible, in the book of Job. Here is what Wikipedia says about it
"The Mazzaroth is believed to have been given from God to Adam to show His plan of redemption for man. The meaning of the word Mazzaroth has been in contention for some hundreds of years as the scarce but adequate literature confirms. Traditional sources generally interpret the word as meaning constellation, though usually understood in the plural, constellations; where others agree it specifically refers to the zodiac and possibly the planet Venus.
It is believed by some historians and scholars that the purpose behind this astrological reference was a prophetic guide to the coming of the Jewish Messiah."
ok...All ancient religions began as astronomical and astrological in nature. All the great oral myths of ancient peoples were engraved by men on the stars and astral bodies (sun, planets etc.) even before writing was invented - as a way of remembering. Apparently Mazzaroth is an old babylonian name for the zodiac...which somehow told the story of the virgin motherhood (isis, mary, virgo) and the coming of a messiah. Really, the Gospels are just the echo of earlier Egyptian stories which takes about virgin birth of a messiah in a cave or manger at the winter solstice, crucifixion of a godman, resurrection of the saviour son, etc.
And until Roman Catholocism, these myths were taken allegorically...as they were meant to be (the ancient pagans were much more spiritually advanced than us in this regard). So in short there never was an Adam....it is an allegory meant to symbolize the moment when the human animal was made into God's likeness through the injection of the divine into our bodies. After eating the fruit Adam became a living soul, his eyes were opened and his moral awareness was born. We are made up of divine souls and earthly bodies....and we must work at liberating our divine souls from the earthly prison that is our bodies...that is the allegorical truths hidden in all the myths in the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, and all the other ancient sacred texts. These stories were never meant to be taken literally.....they are much more powerful and liberating if you understand them for what they are...allegories explaining our true natures.
"The Mazzaroth is believed to have been given from God to Adam to show His plan of redemption for man. The meaning of the word Mazzaroth has been in contention for some hundreds of years as the scarce but adequate literature confirms. Traditional sources generally interpret the word as meaning constellation, though usually understood in the plural, constellations; where others agree it specifically refers to the zodiac and possibly the planet Venus.
It is believed by some historians and scholars that the purpose behind this astrological reference was a prophetic guide to the coming of the Jewish Messiah."
ok...All ancient religions began as astronomical and astrological in nature. All the great oral myths of ancient peoples were engraved by men on the stars and astral bodies (sun, planets etc.) even before writing was invented - as a way of remembering. Apparently Mazzaroth is an old babylonian name for the zodiac...which somehow told the story of the virgin motherhood (isis, mary, virgo) and the coming of a messiah. Really, the Gospels are just the echo of earlier Egyptian stories which takes about virgin birth of a messiah in a cave or manger at the winter solstice, crucifixion of a godman, resurrection of the saviour son, etc.
And until Roman Catholocism, these myths were taken allegorically...as they were meant to be (the ancient pagans were much more spiritually advanced than us in this regard). So in short there never was an Adam....it is an allegory meant to symbolize the moment when the human animal was made into God's likeness through the injection of the divine into our bodies. After eating the fruit Adam became a living soul, his eyes were opened and his moral awareness was born. We are made up of divine souls and earthly bodies....and we must work at liberating our divine souls from the earthly prison that is our bodies...that is the allegorical truths hidden in all the myths in the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, and all the other ancient sacred texts. These stories were never meant to be taken literally.....they are much more powerful and liberating if you understand them for what they are...allegories explaining our true natures.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 25 2007, 05:57 PM) [snapback]1599611[/snapback]
These attempts have all been shot down already....Most of the scholars that study these other religions say that they have no comparison and that most of them were created AFTER christianity....I have some links if you would like them of SOME of the religions.....they call them the copycat religions and they arent really in any debates with scholars anymore....mostly ACHYRA S made these rediculous claims.
well, if you want real proof I suggest you start learning Egyptian hieroglyphics and then you can read for yourself on stones dated to 2500 B.C. the stories of a godman born of a virgin in a cave who was crucified and then resurrected. Or if you trust egyptian scholars to do the correct translations you can read for yourself their translations of these writings....look at books by Professor Alvin Boyd Kuhn or Gerald Massey
Never heard of Achyra S.
Heres some info on the egyptian religions...
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Seems like a bunch of poppycock to me
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Seems like a bunch of poppycock to me
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 25 2007, 10:56 PM) [snapback]1599538[/snapback]
i've heard the same exact argument made many times on this site... the only difference is that people keep citing different religions and myths as the source... i wish you guys would make up your mind... and the story of Jesus predates every religion on the planet... you might want to do some research on the mazzaroth... it was a tradition passed down from adam... to every culture on the planet... and it is indeed provable... but do some research on the mazzaroth and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about...
Christianity is also seen as a myth too thaphantum to lots and lots of millions of people all over the world
But you have to remember, how you see things is good for you, but you must understand that not everyone will agree, everyone else that follows a different faith than yours, will all think that their faith is the one and only true faith
But in reality, that's all each one is, just a faith...one that cant be proved, nor can it be disproven...lets be fair about it
I like hearing about how others see God, it makes it intresting, it doesn't cloud my judgement though, I stick to my beliefs, but still like to listen to others...thats why I always say - each to their own & ok I accept this is your faith and how you see it, but please accept my faith too...
If its poppycock.....why did the early church fathers worry so much about it? At their time, the remarkable similarities between the pagan mystery religions (Osiris-Horus, Dionysius, Mithras et. al.) and the Jesus Christ story are much more evident than now....because the Christian Taliban systematically suppressed and destroyed all references to the pagan mystery religions after 325 AD and made paganism out to be the state religions of Greece and Rome - which no real pagan believed in. The writing of history is left to the winners.....and the pagan voice was lost.
But before this time, both Justin Martyr and Tertullian (two great early church fathers) in the 2nd century AD advanced the argument of "diabolical mimicry" to explain the similiarities.
Tertullian says: "The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of The Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the baptismal fount, thereby initiating them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Devine"
Of course, it is open to you to believe this explanation. But you can't deny the similarities between pagan mystery religions (which for the basis of all pagan mystery religions including the Persian version of Mithras) and the Christ story, which is the jewish version of this powerful timeless myth.
But before this time, both Justin Martyr and Tertullian (two great early church fathers) in the 2nd century AD advanced the argument of "diabolical mimicry" to explain the similiarities.
Tertullian says: "The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of The Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the baptismal fount, thereby initiating them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Devine"
Of course, it is open to you to believe this explanation. But you can't deny the similarities between pagan mystery religions (which for the basis of all pagan mystery religions including the Persian version of Mithras) and the Christ story, which is the jewish version of this powerful timeless myth.
QUOTE(Horus Christos @ Mar 25 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]1599624[/snapback]
OK...I looked up Mazzaroth on wikipedia as I have never heard of it before..apparenty it only appears once in the bible, in the book of Job. Here is what Wikipedia says about it
"The Mazzaroth is believed to have been given from God to Adam to show His plan of redemption for man. The meaning of the word Mazzaroth has been in contention for some hundreds of years as the scarce but adequate literature confirms. Traditional sources generally interpret the word as meaning constellation, though usually understood in the plural, constellations; where others agree it specifically refers to the zodiac and possibly the planet Venus.
It is believed by some historians and scholars that the purpose behind this astrological reference was a prophetic guide to the coming of the Jewish Messiah."
ok...All ancient religions began as astronomical and astrological in nature. All the great oral myths of ancient peoples were engraved by men on the stars and astral bodies (sun, planets etc.) even before writing was invented - as a way of remembering. Apparently Mazzaroth is an old babylonian name for the zodiac...which somehow told the story of the virgin motherhood (isis, mary, virgo) and the coming of a messiah. Really, the Gospels are just the echo of earlier Egyptian stories which takes about virgin birth of a messiah in a cave or manger at the winter solstice, crucifixion of a godman, resurrection of the saviour son, etc.
And until Roman Catholocism, these myths were taken allegorically...as they were meant to be (the ancient pagans were much more spiritually advanced than us in this regard). So in short there never was an Adam....it is an allegory meant to symbolize the moment when the human animal was made into God's likeness through the injection of the divine into our bodies. After eating the fruit Adam became a living soul, his eyes were opened and his moral awareness was born. We are made up of divine souls and earthly bodies....and we must work at liberating our divine souls from the earthly prison that is our bodies...that is the allegorical truths hidden in all the myths in the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, and all the other ancient sacred texts. These stories were never meant to be taken literally.....they are much more powerful and liberating if you understand them for what they are...allegories explaining our true natures.
"The Mazzaroth is believed to have been given from God to Adam to show His plan of redemption for man. The meaning of the word Mazzaroth has been in contention for some hundreds of years as the scarce but adequate literature confirms. Traditional sources generally interpret the word as meaning constellation, though usually understood in the plural, constellations; where others agree it specifically refers to the zodiac and possibly the planet Venus.
It is believed by some historians and scholars that the purpose behind this astrological reference was a prophetic guide to the coming of the Jewish Messiah."
ok...All ancient religions began as astronomical and astrological in nature. All the great oral myths of ancient peoples were engraved by men on the stars and astral bodies (sun, planets etc.) even before writing was invented - as a way of remembering. Apparently Mazzaroth is an old babylonian name for the zodiac...which somehow told the story of the virgin motherhood (isis, mary, virgo) and the coming of a messiah. Really, the Gospels are just the echo of earlier Egyptian stories which takes about virgin birth of a messiah in a cave or manger at the winter solstice, crucifixion of a godman, resurrection of the saviour son, etc.
And until Roman Catholocism, these myths were taken allegorically...as they were meant to be (the ancient pagans were much more spiritually advanced than us in this regard). So in short there never was an Adam....it is an allegory meant to symbolize the moment when the human animal was made into God's likeness through the injection of the divine into our bodies. After eating the fruit Adam became a living soul, his eyes were opened and his moral awareness was born. We are made up of divine souls and earthly bodies....and we must work at liberating our divine souls from the earthly prison that is our bodies...that is the allegorical truths hidden in all the myths in the bible, the egyptian book of the dead, and all the other ancient sacred texts. These stories were never meant to be taken literally.....they are much more powerful and liberating if you understand them for what they are...allegories explaining our true natures.
ok, now that you have the surface information... the next step is to study what each sign means... then break it down by star... then break each star down by language... and then find out what each star means in each language... just pick any 5 random languages and do that...
it tells the same exact story... the virgin birth of a savior... the crucifixion of that savior... the coming of an evil "twin"... the destruction of that "twin" by the savior... the second coming of the savior... the harvesting of mankind... new heaven and new earth...
that's a FACT... you can research all of that... i have done it... when i first go ahold of that information... i ran with it... it's more than just a coincidence... and the Bible refers to the mazzaroth more than once... it doesn't always use the word mazzaroth... sometimes it specifies a specific constelation... sometimes it refers to signs in the stars...
if you want to find information... all you have to do is look for it...
QUOTE(Horus Christos @ Mar 25 2007, 04:48 PM) [snapback]1599673[/snapback]
If its poppycock.....why did the early church fathers worry so much about it? At their time, the remarkable similarities between the pagan mystery religions (Osiris-Horus, Dionysius, Mithras et. al.) and the Jesus Christ story are much more evident than now....because the Christian Taliban systematically suppressed and destroyed all references to the pagan mystery religions after 325 AD and made paganism out to be the state religions of Greece and Rome - which no real pagan believed in. The writing of history is left to the winners.....and the pagan voice was lost.
But before this time, both Justin Martyr and Tertullian (two great early church fathers) in the 2nd century AD advanced the argument of "diabolical mimicry" to explain the similiarities.
Tertullian says: "The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of The Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the baptismal fount, thereby initiating them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Devine"
Of course, it is open to you to believe this explanation. But you can't deny the similarities between pagan mystery religions (which for the basis of all pagan mystery religions including the Persian version of Mithras) and the Christ story, which is the jewish version of this powerful timeless myth.
But before this time, both Justin Martyr and Tertullian (two great early church fathers) in the 2nd century AD advanced the argument of "diabolical mimicry" to explain the similiarities.
Tertullian says: "The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of The Divine Sacraments. He baptises his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the baptismal fount, thereby initiating them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Devine"
Of course, it is open to you to believe this explanation. But you can't deny the similarities between pagan mystery religions (which for the basis of all pagan mystery religions including the Persian version of Mithras) and the Christ story, which is the jewish version of this powerful timeless myth.
people come out of the blue with "mystery religions" all the time... at any given time in history... a "mystery religion" springs up... and most of the times... the references are a MYSTERY... nobody has any documentation... nobody has any proof of these practices and they are usually shot down in most debates... with that said...
can you post a link to the information that you just gave us... but i would like a link to a well referenced website... mean that they can state where they got this information from...
thanks...
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 26 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]1599698[/snapback]
Heres one on mithra
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html
Thats from a christian website hairston...of course its going to say its a myth ect...lets not be baised about this....at the top it clearly reads -- Teknoics Building Blocks For Christian Faith <--says it all
Gee please dont think I am getting at you, cuz you are one of my fav christians
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Mar 26 2007, 12:43 AM) [snapback]1599736[/snapback]
Thats from a christian website hairston...of course its going to say its a myth ect...lets not be baised about this....at the top it clearly reads -- Teknoics Building Blocks For Christian Faith <--says it all
Gee please dont think I am getting at you, cuz you are one of my fav christians
Gee please dont think I am getting at you, cuz you are one of my fav christians
No i understand...I try and find the most trustworthy people I can but to be honest not many people argue about the myths because most of them have been debunked....I, like you, find the neutral to be the best but we still have to be careful of hidden agendas
Edited for punctuation
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 26 2007, 01:44 AM) [snapback]1599739[/snapback]
No i understand...I try and find the most trustworthy people I can but to be honest not many people argue about the myths because most of them have been debunked....I, like you, find the neutral to be the best but we still have to be careful of hidden agendas
Edited for punctuation
Edited for punctuation
See this is why each religion will want to belive their faith is the one and only true faith........I can see its understandable...so each faith will say one copied from the other, back and forth over and over...it wont end
I belive my faith is the one and only true faith to me LOL but see difference is, my faith is personal to me
I know there could well be other possible Gods ect...but i stick with the one I follow...
Actually, I don't want to be seen as pushing my views on others. What happens after we die is a mystery, no one knows. The nature of God (or the universal spirit if that sounds better to you) is also unknown, and ungraspable by our mere human minds. All we do down here on earth is search for the explanation that seems right to us. For me, despite being born into a strong Roman Catholic family, I found the Christ story to be simply unbelievable, from the age of 12. It did nothing for me, I couldn't believe it and I went through a period of scared atheism before I settled into a vague belief of a universal spirit. However, after learning of the Gnostics and the pagan mystery religions I found that their ideas about god's nature and our own nature were much more in tune with my own thoughts. Frankly speaking, I think every person has to find their own salvation in whatever manner they can. If you beleive in Jesus that's good - or Buddha, or Zorastaor or Gnosticism...makes no difference. All human theories on god and the afterlife are equally invalid as our minds cannot grasp the true nature of god and the afterlife (if there even are such things) in any event.
I simply want to put my unproveable theories out there to help others who may have been experiencing the same existential angst that I myself lived through -this is for those that cannot believe in the equally unprovable theory of Christ.
As for sources, I do a lot of reading...though not much of it on the net as it is terribly unreliable. Anyone can post their opinions, or cut-paste and edit, and make it look good....I looked briefly at Hairston's link but it was obviously christian propoganda.
If you want my major sources for these views you can read the books by Freke and Gandy, particularly "the Jesus mysteries" (which has a multitude of academic citations) and is mainly concerned with greek mystery religions. For Egypt material I recommend Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey.
And incidently I still consider myself christian...in the ancient sense of the word christos...or anointed. We are all anoited with the divine spirit which is in each one of us....and it is up to ourselves (and not a church) to work at redeeming the christ within us and to learn to live in fellowship and love with our fellow man...and woman.
PEACE BROTHERS/SISTERS
I simply want to put my unproveable theories out there to help others who may have been experiencing the same existential angst that I myself lived through -this is for those that cannot believe in the equally unprovable theory of Christ.
As for sources, I do a lot of reading...though not much of it on the net as it is terribly unreliable. Anyone can post their opinions, or cut-paste and edit, and make it look good....I looked briefly at Hairston's link but it was obviously christian propoganda.
If you want my major sources for these views you can read the books by Freke and Gandy, particularly "the Jesus mysteries" (which has a multitude of academic citations) and is mainly concerned with greek mystery religions. For Egypt material I recommend Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey.
And incidently I still consider myself christian...in the ancient sense of the word christos...or anointed. We are all anoited with the divine spirit which is in each one of us....and it is up to ourselves (and not a church) to work at redeeming the christ within us and to learn to live in fellowship and love with our fellow man...and woman.
PEACE BROTHERS/SISTERS
QUOTE(Horus Christos @ Mar 26 2007, 01:21 AM) [snapback]1599782[/snapback]
Actually, I don't want to be seen as pushing my views on others. What happens after we die is a mystery, no one knows. The nature of God (or the universal spirit if that sounds better to you) is also unknown, and ungraspable by our mere human minds. All we do down here on earth is search for the explanation that seems right to us. For me, despite being born into a strong Roman Catholic family, I found the Christ story to be simply unbelievable, from the age of 12. It did nothing for me, I couldn't believe it and I went through a period of scared atheism before I settled into a vague belief of a universal spirit. However, after learning of the Gnostics and the pagan mystery religions I found that their ideas about god's nature and our own nature were much more in tune with my own thoughts. Frankly speaking, I think every person has to find their own salvation in whatever manner they can. If you beleive in Jesus that's good - or Buddha, or Zorastaor or Gnosticism...makes no difference. All human theories on god and the afterlife are equally invalid as our minds cannot grasp the true nature of god and the afterlife (if there even are such things) in any event.
I simply want to put my unproveable theories out there to help others who may have been experiencing the same existential angst that I myself lived through -this is for those that cannot believe in the equally unprovable theory of Christ.
As for sources, I do a lot of reading...though not much of it on the net as it is terribly unreliable. Anyone can post their opinions, or cut-paste and edit, and make it look good....I looked briefly at Hairston's link but it was obviously christian propoganda.
If you want my major sources for these views you can read the books by Freke and Gandy, particularly "the Jesus mysteries" (which has a multitude of academic citations) and is mainly concerned with greek mystery religions. For Egypt material I recommend Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey.
And incidently I still consider myself christian...in the ancient sense of the word christos...or anointed. We are all anoited with the divine spirit which is in each one of us....and it is up to ourselves (and not a church) to work at redeeming the christ within us and to learn to live in fellowship and love with our fellow man...and woman.
PEACE BROTHERS/SISTERS
I simply want to put my unproveable theories out there to help others who may have been experiencing the same existential angst that I myself lived through -this is for those that cannot believe in the equally unprovable theory of Christ.
As for sources, I do a lot of reading...though not much of it on the net as it is terribly unreliable. Anyone can post their opinions, or cut-paste and edit, and make it look good....I looked briefly at Hairston's link but it was obviously christian propoganda.
If you want my major sources for these views you can read the books by Freke and Gandy, particularly "the Jesus mysteries" (which has a multitude of academic citations) and is mainly concerned with greek mystery religions. For Egypt material I recommend Alvin Boyd Kuhn and Gerald Massey.
And incidently I still consider myself christian...in the ancient sense of the word christos...or anointed. We are all anoited with the divine spirit which is in each one of us....and it is up to ourselves (and not a church) to work at redeeming the christ within us and to learn to live in fellowship and love with our fellow man...and woman.
PEACE BROTHERS/SISTERS
Hey that is cool man...Glad to see you hear at UM most of all!...WELCOME...I havent read much on the Jesus mysteries but from what I hear they are mostly theories...Now I hear that alot of scholars have adv that these characters have information that the scholars do not so it makes their work suspect and alot of it isnt in the actual texts of the religion itself...I would rather find out myself and see where they could have gotten this information than rely on someone else but I dont have much access to all the texts....Another thing I would recommend if you like to read is "The case for Christ" by Lee strobel....He interviews the top scholars in the US and asks all the skeptical questions about Jesus, even the myth stories from other religion....I can honestly say with that information that I dont buy alot of the stuff that I see on the net....there is a lot of junk and I can agree with you on this that it is good to seek the truth for yourself instead of looking at alot of internet stuff that seems to tell alot of lies heh....but anyway glad to see you here and dont think that weve been picking an argument, I think its good that we both seek the truth.
I looked at some of the information in the Jesus mysteries and it looks like they are Christ bashers.....I dont trust them
Tina the mom... tina the daughter... Tina the driver... Tina the genius... Tina the supervisor
just because the word Tina appears in front of every title that you have, doesn't mean that there are 5 different Tinas...
the same can be said with God the Father... God the Son... God the Holy Spirit...
Interesting analogy. It has some amount of merit. Unfortunately I'm going to have to toss the whole thing out, because while God is most definitely One (like Tina is in this example), God is also most definitely three. Not just three aspects of the one, but three individuals. I have yet to find an earthly example that adequately explains the Trinity. Good try, phantum, but I must disagree. Tina the driver and Tina the supervisor may be the same person, but she cannot be in two places at once. God the Father resided in heaven while God the Son came down to earth.
The closest human analogy I've found to describe the Trinity is water/ice/steam, three states of the H2O compound. However, this implies that God is one compound and "morphs" into whatever state is best for a given situation, which is not exactly biblical either.
just because the word Tina appears in front of every title that you have, doesn't mean that there are 5 different Tinas...
the same can be said with God the Father... God the Son... God the Holy Spirit...
Interesting analogy. It has some amount of merit. Unfortunately I'm going to have to toss the whole thing out, because while God is most definitely One (like Tina is in this example), God is also most definitely three. Not just three aspects of the one, but three individuals. I have yet to find an earthly example that adequately explains the Trinity. Good try, phantum, but I must disagree. Tina the driver and Tina the supervisor may be the same person, but she cannot be in two places at once. God the Father resided in heaven while God the Son came down to earth.
The closest human analogy I've found to describe the Trinity is water/ice/steam, three states of the H2O compound. However, this implies that God is one compound and "morphs" into whatever state is best for a given situation, which is not exactly biblical either.
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 25 2007, 04:56 PM) [snapback]1599538[/snapback]
i've heard the same exact argument made many times on this site... the only difference is that people keep citing different religions and myths as the source... i wish you guys would make up your mind... and the story of Jesus predates every religion on the planet... you might want to do some research on the mazzaroth... it was a tradition passed down from adam... to every culture on the planet... and it is indeed provable... but do some research on the mazzaroth and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about...
HA!
Hold on, let me stop laughing before I go on...
Alright, all done.
Predates every religion on the planet? Are you BLIND? The Native American beliefs alone predate Jesus by a few thousand years, not to mention *Judaism*, and all the countless faiths in the Middle East and Asia. If anything, christianity is one of the *younger* religions.
QUOTE(bee @ Mar 25 2007, 09:15 PM) [snapback]1599498[/snapback]
Lol....you can if you want to....but I am physically a female...this I can prove, empirically....although you'll have to take my word for it!!
The references to God as male are, at the end of the day, words on a page, unprovable but accepted through the tenets of traditional, religious faith.
Not saying this to upset you..but a non physical God probably wouldn't have a sexual orientation..thats the human condition, to be male or female, depending on the hormones recieved in the womb.
The references to God as male are, at the end of the day, words on a page, unprovable but accepted through the tenets of traditional, religious faith.
Not saying this to upset you..but a non physical God probably wouldn't have a sexual orientation..thats the human condition, to be male or female, depending on the hormones recieved in the womb.
When someone introduces theirself to you as "Mr. Y," would you call him something else just because you preferred to? You could, but it would be rude. I refer to God the way He has asked me to. It's simple respect.
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Mar 26 2007, 05:56 AM) [snapback]1600304[/snapback]
HA!
Hold on, let me stop laughing before I go on...
Alright, all done.
Predates every religion on the planet? Are you BLIND? The Native American beliefs alone predate Jesus by a few thousand years, not to mention *Judaism*, and all the countless faiths in the Middle East and Asia. If anything, christianity is one of the *younger* religions.
Hold on, let me stop laughing before I go on...
Alright, all done.
Predates every religion on the planet? Are you BLIND? The Native American beliefs alone predate Jesus by a few thousand years, not to mention *Judaism*, and all the countless faiths in the Middle East and Asia. If anything, christianity is one of the *younger* religions.
i ASSUME you didn't bother to check it out, because a lot of native americans held the same beliefs reflected in the mazzaroth... further more... maybe you should do some research on the Cherokee... they had a very interesting religion that almost mirrored the jewish religion...
they had a 4 letter word for God... the God that they originally worshiped was one... but in three parts... which they called the Elder Fires...
but i'm sure you weren't aware of that because it seems like you probably form decisions without checking out further information...
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Mar 25 2007, 11:46 PM) [snapback]1600082[/snapback]
Tina the mom... tina the daughter... Tina the driver... Tina the genius... Tina the supervisor
just because the word Tina appears in front of every title that you have, doesn't mean that there are 5 different Tinas...
the same can be said with God the Father... God the Son... God the Holy Spirit...
Interesting analogy. It has some amount of merit. Unfortunately I'm going to have to toss the whole thing out, because while God is most definitely One (like Tina is in this example), God is also most definitely three. Not just three aspects of the one, but three individuals. I have yet to find an earthly example that adequately explains the Trinity. Good try, phantum, but I must disagree. Tina the driver and Tina the supervisor may be the same person, but she cannot be in two places at once. God the Father resided in heaven while God the Son came down to earth.
The closest human analogy I've found to describe the Trinity is water/ice/steam, three states of the H2O compound. However, this implies that God is one compound and "morphs" into whatever state is best for a given situation, which is not exactly biblical either.
just because the word Tina appears in front of every title that you have, doesn't mean that there are 5 different Tinas...
the same can be said with God the Father... God the Son... God the Holy Spirit...
Interesting analogy. It has some amount of merit. Unfortunately I'm going to have to toss the whole thing out, because while God is most definitely One (like Tina is in this example), God is also most definitely three. Not just three aspects of the one, but three individuals. I have yet to find an earthly example that adequately explains the Trinity. Good try, phantum, but I must disagree. Tina the driver and Tina the supervisor may be the same person, but she cannot be in two places at once. God the Father resided in heaven while God the Son came down to earth.
The closest human analogy I've found to describe the Trinity is water/ice/steam, three states of the H2O compound. However, this implies that God is one compound and "morphs" into whatever state is best for a given situation, which is not exactly biblical either.
I can definitely understand your point... but consider this... God is a supernatural being... a higher power and intelligence... the problem comes in with me and you...
we are flesh and blood... we have limited knowledge.... and with our limited knowledge... we are both trying to describe a supernatural being...
the limited understanding we have of may be both of our downfalls...
as you said... Tina cannot be everywhere at once... but there is a word in Hebrew that implies that God can... the word is "ALMIGHTY" that appears in the bible 22 times if i recall... at first, it just seems like something you say to attribute power to someone... the word in Greek is "pantokrator" (excuse the spelling)... which means... "he who has his hand on everything" which implies that God is omnipresent...
in my OPINION... the Greek and Hebrew words used, shed a whole different light on a lot of the verses...
like i said though... we are limiting God by our understanding... and God isn't limited by our understanding... He is a being that trancends space and time...
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 26 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]1600412[/snapback]
i ASSUME you didn't bother to check it out, because a lot of native americans held the same beliefs reflected in the mazzaroth... further more... maybe you should do some research on the Cherokee... they had a very interesting religion that almost mirrored the jewish religion...
they had a 4 letter word for God... the God that they originally worshiped was one... but in three parts... which they called the Elder Fires...
but i'm sure you weren't aware of that because it seems like you probably form decisions without checking out further information...
they had a 4 letter word for God... the God that they originally worshiped was one... but in three parts... which they called the Elder Fires...
but i'm sure you weren't aware of that because it seems like you probably form decisions without checking out further information...
I am 1/3rd Cherokee, and I know plenty about the beliefs of my people(tis' the largest single blood-line in me).
What of the Aztects? The Mayans? Zoroastorism?...Hindus? Buddhists? The Greek and Roman religions? All of them, many times older than belief in Jesus, and (if memory serves) older than Judaism.
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Mar 26 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]1600427[/snapback]
I am 1/3rd Cherokee, and I know plenty about the beliefs of my people(tis' the largest single blood-line in me).
What of the Aztects? The Mayans? Zoroastorism?...Hindus? Buddhists? The Greek and Roman religions? All of them, many times older than belief in Jesus, and (if memory serves) older than Judaism.
What of the Aztects? The Mayans? Zoroastorism?...Hindus? Buddhists? The Greek and Roman religions? All of them, many times older than belief in Jesus, and (if memory serves) older than Judaism.
Yes there are older religions than the New testament
To consider Christianity the 'oldest religion' you have to believe the Bible, which mean you are Christian so this kind of defeats the objectivity of the opinion.
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Mar 26 2007, 07:50 AM) [snapback]1600427[/snapback]
I am 1/3rd Cherokee, and I know plenty about the beliefs of my people(tis' the largest single blood-line in me).
What of the Aztects? The Mayans? Zoroastorism?...Hindus? Buddhists? The Greek and Roman religions? All of them, many times older than belief in Jesus, and (if memory serves) older than Judaism.
What of the Aztects? The Mayans? Zoroastorism?...Hindus? Buddhists? The Greek and Roman religions? All of them, many times older than belief in Jesus, and (if memory serves) older than Judaism.
ok, since you made the statement... prove it...
please provide that dates these cultures began... and please provide dates on their religious practices... when they began...
the united states has been around about 200 years... but new religions have sprung up... all the time... so just because the culture existed, doesn't mean they always practiced that religion...
so we can clear this up very easily... please provide proof of your statement...
QUOTE(Leonardo @ Mar 26 2007, 07:57 AM) [snapback]1600434[/snapback]
To consider Christianity the 'oldest religion' you have to believe the Bible, which mean you are Christian so this kind of defeats the objectivity of the opinion.
so far i haven't read anything here that would imply that anyone thinks that... the Bible doesn't make that claim...
what i said was... check out the mazzaroth...
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 26 2007, 10:04 AM) [snapback]1600446[/snapback]
ok, since you made the statement... prove it...
please provide that dates these cultures began... and please provide dates on their religious practices... when they began...
the united states has been around about 200 years... but new religions have sprung up... all the time... so just because the culture existed, doesn't mean they always practiced that religion...
so we can clear this up very easily... please provide proof of your statement...
please provide that dates these cultures began... and please provide dates on their religious practices... when they began...
the united states has been around about 200 years... but new religions have sprung up... all the time... so just because the culture existed, doesn't mean they always practiced that religion...
so we can clear this up very easily... please provide proof of your statement...
http://ask.yahoo.com/20011106.html
There you go. How's that?
The only thing that makes the story of Jesus any older than the new testament are the prophecies made in the Old testament which were about 700+ years BEFORE Christ was even born. This is a little off subject though 
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Mar 26 2007, 03:08 PM) [snapback]1600453[/snapback]
I believe there are older religions than christianity but none were classified as parallel with christianity until soon after Jesus time, which is where the christ myths come from....and this is off subject by me also :/
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Mar 26 2007, 08:08 AM) [snapback]1600453[/snapback]
great reference... but we bump into a single issue... the book of JOB in the Bible is dated at 2,000 B.C. which predates all of those religions mentioned there...
and if you read Job... it expresses the belief in a coming Messiah (Jesus)... it also talks about the resurrection of believers in the end... and it talks about the coming judgement of man...
do you have any references older than that?
maybe i overlooked it, but why doesn't that page... found on yahoo... reference it's sources? for all i know, you could have written that page... just being honest... but like i said... maybe i overlooked it... i'm about to check again...
ok, i read the source again... at first i ASSUMED it was a geocities page... lol... but that was my mistake...
the question was concerning organized religion...
if you notice... Abraham didn't build statues to God... and he predates all of the other cultures mentioned... 1800 B.C... and he did indeed worship the Jewish/Christian God of the Bible...
furthermore... Isaac, Jacob, all 13 of the tribes (i know there are only 12... if you don't count the 2 half tribes.. ephraim and mannasa) believed in God... but none of them had organized religion at first... but it is clear that all of them did indeed believe in a savior... and that He would judge the earth and there would be a ressurection...
and in my OPINION... they used the mazzaroth (which predates all religion and cultures)... to tell the story of creation to redemption...
the question was concerning organized religion...
if you notice... Abraham didn't build statues to God... and he predates all of the other cultures mentioned... 1800 B.C... and he did indeed worship the Jewish/Christian God of the Bible...
furthermore... Isaac, Jacob, all 13 of the tribes (i know there are only 12... if you don't count the 2 half tribes.. ephraim and mannasa) believed in God... but none of them had organized religion at first... but it is clear that all of them did indeed believe in a savior... and that He would judge the earth and there would be a ressurection...
and in my OPINION... they used the mazzaroth (which predates all religion and cultures)... to tell the story of creation to redemption...
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Mar 26 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]1600544[/snapback]
ok, i read the source again... at first i ASSUMED it was a geocities page... lol... but that was my mistake...
the question was concerning organized religion...
if you notice... Abraham didn't build statues to God... and he predates all of the other cultures mentioned... 1800 B.C... and he did indeed worship the Jewish/Christian God of the Bible...
furthermore... Isaac, Jacob, all 13 of the tribes (i know there are only 12... if you don't count the 2 half tribes.. ephraim and mannasa) believed in God... but none of them had organized religion at first... but it is clear that all of them did indeed believe in a savior... and that He would judge the earth and there would be a ressurection...
and in my OPINION... they used the mazzaroth (which predates all religion and cultures)... to tell the story of creation to redemption...
the question was concerning organized religion...
if you notice... Abraham didn't build statues to God... and he predates all of the other cultures mentioned... 1800 B.C... and he did indeed worship the Jewish/Christian God of the Bible...
furthermore... Isaac, Jacob, all 13 of the tribes (i know there are only 12... if you don't count the 2 half tribes.. ephraim and mannasa) believed in God... but none of them had organized religion at first... but it is clear that all of them did indeed believe in a savior... and that He would judge the earth and there would be a ressurection...
and in my OPINION... they used the mazzaroth (which predates all religion and cultures)... to tell the story of creation to redemption...
The egyptian religions are about 5000 years old....osiris was an egyptian God but doesnt have a parallel with christianity....some believe it does but seem to have been manipulated by a few individuals which have already been exposed as being false.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 26 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]1600456[/snapback]
The only thing that makes the story of Jesus any older than the new testament are the prophecies made in the Old testament which were about 700+ years BEFORE Christ was even born. This is a little off subject though
This is very circuitous reasoning. The muslims and mormons would say the exact same thing about their religions, and with just as much "proof". Christianity dates from the third century, period. Roman Emperor Constantine, and not much later, Theodosius, had a lot of trouble keeping the Empire together, so they took all the old trinity legends, and superimposed them on what they had. Please note that the trinity is not mentioned in the bible. There is a good reason-Jesus didn't believe in it.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 26 2007, 05:16 PM) [snapback]1600609[/snapback]
This is very circuitous reasoning. The muslims and mormons would say the exact same thing about their religions, and with just as much "proof". Christianity dates from the third century, period. Roman Emperor Constantine, and not much later, Theodosius, had a lot of trouble keeping the Empire together, so they took all the old trinity legends, and superimposed them on what they had. Please note that the trinity is not mentioned in the bible. There is a good reason-Jesus didn't believe in it.
Hey Gideon how are you?....where have you been hiding?
In regards to some of these stories like the legend of Mithra and others,could they not be perhasp fortellings of the coming of Jesus Christ? I say that from the fact the virgin birth, death and resurrection,12 disciples(Mithra) etc???
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
QUOTE(HollyDolly @ Mar 26 2007, 05:29 PM) [snapback]1600623[/snapback]
In regards to some of these stories like the legend of Mithra and others,could they not be perhasp fortellings of the coming of Jesus Christ? I say that from the fact the virgin birth, death and resurrection,12 disciples(Mithra) etc???
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Those are post christian claims...its pretty much scholarly speculations made from artwork in the second, third, and fourth centuries.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 26 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1600642[/snapback]
Those are post christian claims...its pretty much scholarly speculations made from artwork in the second, third, and fourth centuries.
Or, more likely, the art reflected the real truth, hidden in symbolism.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 26 2007, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1600654[/snapback]
Or, more likely, the art reflected the real truth, hidden in symbolism.
But considering that most of the artwork is too recent to influence the New Testament that claim doesnt hold any weight.
An excellent book i would recommend to you Gideon is "The case for christ" by Lee strobel. He brings up practically every skeptical question on Christ to the most respected and qualified scholars of today. These are among the best scholars of america and they tackle every skeptical question that you can think of. With the info and sources that they have provided there is such evidence of Christ and the accuracy of the bible. Its a book for skeptics but to be honest its helped me out greatly with the understanding.
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Mar 26 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]1600671[/snapback]
An excellent book i would recommend to you Gideon is "The case for christ" by Lee strobel. He brings up practically every skeptical question on Christ to the most respected and qualified scholars of today. These are among the best scholars of america and they tackle every skeptical question that you can think of. With the info and sources that they have provided there is such evidence of Christ and the accuracy of the bible. Its a book for skeptics but to be honest its helped me out greatly with the understanding.
Read anything by John Allegro.
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Mar 26 2007, 06:48 PM) [snapback]1600712[/snapback]
Read anything by John Allegro.
Umm John allegro?....The one who thought wrote The sacred mushroom and the cross?....He believed that christians would take hallucinogenic drugs to be able to perceive the mind of God. This guy seems to be a Christ basher and honestly I dont trust what he says.
Edit: He also stated to a friend, who was becoming interested in the Gospel, that "by the time he was through with the church, there will be no church left to join"
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