So.. many people, even many non-religious people believe that humans have a soul and will go to another conscious reality after we die.
But do we? Obviously nobody can know for sure, or at least prove that they do. Since proving or disproving a soul is impossible and unimportant anyway, let's look into the logic of it.

What are the limitations of a soul?

So humans are conscious beings. We have thoughts, ideas, opinions, observations, memories, etc. What we know makes us who we are. But does our soul have anything to do with these things?

- We know for a fact that memories are stored inside the mind, and can be gained and lost inside the mind. Amnesia can completely rob someone of their identity.
We know that memories are not kept within our soul, should we have one.. if they were, then how can you possible lose your memories from a blow to the head?

So if you did have an afterlife, would you even remember who you were on earth? I doubt it.

- Humans are not at all the only conscious beings alive. So do animals have souls? They have memories, they have emotions.. they have feelings, in fact, many animals share most of their DNA with humans. So do animals have souls? Why then, if ghosts are souls who have not yet "moved on", since there are so many animals, do we almost never here people talk about how they heard a bull snorting in their living room? What about insects? Plants? Or do only creatures with brains have souls?
- Creationists will say that humans are made differently than animals to have souls, because we are the most important of God's creations, or what have you. I can not directly argue that of course, because this is out of the scope of proof or disproof. It is as impossible to disprove as is God.
- One argument for the theory of having a soul is that a body doesn't just "work" on its own, IE.. once you die, you can't just pop right back to life.

But has that been tested? We obviously can't build a human being, or an animal even. But what's the next best thing? Artificially starting the process.
Do clones have souls? We know humans can be cloned.. but they are not created like other humans, they are a copy of another human's DNA.
We know that cloned beings are not unable to function, they are not just a body that sits there. Their bodies still work like a normal body.

Maybe some people think there is no reason to trying to define a soul. Maybe it is something to simply leave as a belief, that is comforting for people.
But why not question these things? Is belief comforting even with the possibility that it's only a story? And is it worth the comfort to believe in a lie?

Just some food for thought.

Some years ago I entered a discussion about reincarnation and in that way also touched the subject of the soul. A few religions were showing their faces in this very very interresting discussion and one of my inputs was the following.

I have a hard time understanding what the reason we hold a soul is. I remember I was told the soul was the immortal part of us, the soul would take all the experiences and of the sorts with it when it leaves our body. but there is a thing I do not understand and this is why.

What USE would the experences we gain in this life of a mortal body bring a soul? A soul does not need to eat, but we gain all sorts of experiences with what to eat and whatnot, favorite things to eat too. We learn to walk, to run and swim. a soul does not need that. We learn some things hurt us, like fire to the skin its easy to see where I am going here, I do not understand what a soul would gain through this mortal life as the experiences it gains here are mostly useless for it. This is of course mostly aimed at buddism and I dare to add it here in this topic to maybe get an opinion from someone, I am sorry for making this "undertopic" its hard to control ones curiosity.

KBA,

What a thought provoking thread!
At present there is no definitive proof all we have to go on is theory about if we have souls or not. If you believe that there is a soul, being harmed physically would not stop the essence/soul of the person from recalling the entirety of their life in death. We do remember every experience we have it's our ability to recall it that is the problem.
Why wouldn't animals have souls? There are reports of ghost animals. Perhaps there are less reports of ghost animals than there are humans is because most animals are the best animal they can be and don't need to hang around.
Once the body no longer functions why on earth would you want to pop back into it? Ick....LOL

I have always found the Egyptian description of the soul to be interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul

This looks like it's going to be an interesting thread!







Hello Condesending,

If we do reincarnate and our souls progress (hopefully LOL) all experiences are a part of it. If we do reincarnate to work for that progress the vessel must still be prepared. The body must still learn at an accepted/acceptable rate of experience. Learn to eat, walk, talk, run etc. There is also the thought if you knew exactly what you had to do to work off your karma and remembered it you might not really earn it that way. If you know before hand that you need to do something for soul X because of a snit in a past life and you just did it with no contrition or truth behind it, wouldn't you be better off not to make an empty gesture? Besides who says that being here is such a chore? Every experience should be savored. In my opinion anyway.
Warm regards,
Mabon.

I would think directly proportionate to the imagination that contrives of such a thing in the first place. If a soul is the essence from god, that animates all that exists how would we in limited human conscious even begin to truly know much less project an answer to this?!

Interesting thread. I am torn between two concepts.

First that the idea of a soul is a construct of our self -aware consciousness, born of a desire for immortality, and also a deeper meaning to our existence. If this was the case then the soul would die with our physical body. This does not mean that the body and soul could not be resurrrected in a different form. In fact the bible strongly indicates that when our body dies, our soul rests in a sleep- like state until the judgement day.

The second possibility is that the soul is the spiritual element of the image in which god created us, and could thus exist independent of the body, both while we are alive( which would explain some human's "paranormal" abilities,) and after the death of our physical body. The evidence appears to point to the latter possibility for at least some humans, but in general I tend to accept the collective wisdom of the bible, that for most people the soul goes to sleep when the body dies on earth.

As a side issue. Intelligence or self aware consciousness is a real/verifiable element of humanity. It should not be confused with our soul. Soon (relatively speaking, say within the next 50-100 years) I believe we will be able to produce artifical (possibly organic) consciousness on a level very similar to humans. Not long after that we will be able to store and transfer individual consciousnesses to "machines" and other humans such as clones. This will make our intelligence/consciousness potentially immortal, whether or not our souls are.

I belive we all have souls

I think the reason for the soul, is to go some place when we die after we are judged...the body (the shell of the soul) stays burried lol

Well, I'm not really discussing whether or not we have souls, but rather.. what is the sensibility and true basis for the belief in a soul.

I guess a simple basis on the belief in a soul or spirit is to support the feelings that we are more than just bags of flesh roaming around waiting to die. It is the nature of man to need security in both mind and in the world. Men have allways feared death so if you create a way out of the fearfullness that death brings you are more secure in thinking about death and whats after life. The most sensible act is to love life and to love yourself. So really the soul is the persona of a person that one creates aside from the bag of flesh and bones that is seen from the outside.

Then they arn't non-religious




There is no limitation to the soul other than the limitations imposed by the soul itself. The soul and God are one and the same. It is all oneness. The oneness is all things in all things at all times. Therefore there is no distinction between soul and Utlimate Reality.

And your source for this information? Sorry to say it again but.. you really need to mention that these are simply opinions, because you say them as if they're the definite facts of the matter and you are the authority on all things spiritual. It's hard to have a debate about something when someone acts so sure of themselves on such a distant and unknown subject.

Brave you speak as if you read up from a book of facts I find it funny

Edit:KBA beat me to this very obvious point

That is how I view them. If I am wrong I am wrong. Who cares how I speak. Does that make a difference or influence on how you view it?

Yeah I guess it influences me in the way I do not take it as serious as I like to think I usually take peoples opinions because this way it just seems you either know things only a god should know or are simply naive, and that is hard for me to read with an open mind.

Im just naive! Or even better I am ignorant! I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance.

Whatever floats your boat sir

Just curious do you know God? Because you stating that only God can know about the limitations of 'souls' implies that you know God to know that God ought to know. How do you know God would know these things?

It was just ment as a figure of speach, I will chose my words more carefully next time. No I do not know god

Why would you state though that I am saying something only God would know if that is not what you mean? Im not getting picky with you or trying to be nasty I am just curious why you would attribute this kind of knowledge as something God only knows.

Because as I see God as a nice symbol of an entity that is all knowing, even though I do not buy that such excists he still is a nice symbol as such. And I do not see this as you being picky sir.

All knowing?? How would God be all knowing?

Silly question especially when you look at what I wrote, I think your fishing for a word game and im not gonna bait it

A word game? All I am asking is how does God know all? Why would you think God knows all? My vocabulary doesnt extend all that far so it is rather difficult for me to play "word games". Also how is it a "word game" if the words make sense and convey the sense in a particular argument?

All you are asking for is how does god know all? you think thats a simple question to ask?

I will tell you why I think its silly, you didn't ask how do you THINK god would know all, you ask me a question you know as well as any other it is impossible to answer and therefor you are fishing for a way to "beat" me in a game of words, to trick me to answering. I saw you play this game in severel threads, and this question is the fourth you send me in a row, you are obviously fishing here.

You tell me off for word games then get up me because Im not politically correct enough to as you "How you think" when obviously the question was implying that.





Again who says it is impossible? Is this an objective limitation or a limitation you have imposed on yourself?

Also we are in an unexplained mysteries forum. Soooo many people here just wanna sweep the unexplained under the rug.

Goddess Whispers,

Good day! I don't know if we will ever have the entire understanding of it. That may be part of the 'fun' (if you will) of the experience of being here. IMO it seems like each of us have a piece of the puzzle, whatever our background and personal experiences and beliefs and when people get together to talk and share information we have the potential to understand another's point of view, thus catching a different glimpse of the puzzle.
Warm regards,
Mabon.

Well I did say..as to WHY I believe we have a soul so that when we die, we can be judged...what more is there to say?? can you tell me??

And you forget that too, considering you have an explanation for every last phenomena and unexplained topic from what I can see. You can be naive if you want, but it just gets boring if you're simply going to post your beliefs as facts and act as though you hold the answer for every unanswerable question.



Well. you said what purpose you think a soul would serve if there were an afterlife.. but I'm saying, from our observable world, what is the true need or reason for a soul, or belief in it? Basically, what bumps the belief in a soul up above superstition or a comforting notion?

And responding to your first post here.. again, I go back to my OP, if we have souls, then does every conscious being have souls? Animals operate exactly like humans except they are a bit less complex from a neurological standpoint. So since we're so similar, they must have souls too right? But how can you judge an animal? The point of this topic is that I think the belief in a soul comes weighted with too many problems like these. I think that a soul is a human desire, some form of immortality.. we don't really have to die we just move on to the next place. But I wonder, is it really just that humans don't like the thought of death being the end? True enough, it sounds very bleak and depressing. But reality is reality. And just as I question the plausibility of a human-like God being, I question the plausibility of an immortal soul. It simply doesn't make any sense, we know how our bodies work, we know how we experience things, a soul is not required for everything to work correctly, so why should we assume that there is a soul, if on top of that there are so many problems with the feasibility of one?

I guess this whole discussion would go smoother if we could actually clearly define what a soul is.

Like KBA said there is no apparent function a soul could have.

If the 'soul' does exist then I would think that all living things would have one...it would be arrogant to think that only humans would have one.

Becky you said that a soul is used in the afterlife...but why is a soul needed in the afterlife? Considering that our memories are stored in our brains am I to assume that we don't need our memories in the afterlife?

Soul is consciousness. Plain and simple. And consciousness has no limitation because it is undefinable OR it transcends any definition we give it. Who can scientfically physically define consciousness as it is in itself????

Our observable world is only observable because of observers. No observers equals no proof of an observavble world.



Consciousness is there whether I believe so or not. Consciousness cannot be defined physically or by science yet we know without it we wouldnt know or be able to observe anything. The fact that consciousness is fundamental in order to know a world of any kind "bumps" my belief in the soul.

Your point? We are observers, hence proof of an observable word.



Oh come on, we know that consciousness comes from the brain. We have thoughts, memories, ambitions, we can feel, hear, see, taste, smell our world. Our ability to have thoughts is consciousness. And it just so happens that thoughts occur within the brain. Ever wonder why they have studies in which they show people pictures and see which areas of their brains become active? Consciousness is not unexplained, the explanation is simply not as concrete as it could be.. because the brain is a difficult thing to completely understand.

Here's an example.. do you remember being a baby? Nope, because your brain didn't yet understand language, you didn't yet understand the world, and it's hard to form long-term memories when you're in such a confusing place. You start remembering things in the long term sense around the time you develop language.. because then you can better understand the world around you, the people around you, and basically just what the heck is going on! Consciousness would be an amazingly different experience without language.. you would just adapt to whatever you grew up around... you wouldn't be outwardly much more intelligent than a monkey.

It's basically like a computer, the only exception being that you can think freely.. it's not all scripted and controlled.

And if consciousness comes from something ELSE non-physical, such as a soul, then want to explain to me how it's possible to become unconscious by getting whacked in the head, where the brain just happens to be?

Apparently you

Consciousness to my understanding means that you are aware of yourself and your surroundings.

All things that make us aware of ourselves and our environment are located in the brain and body.

i am way out of my league , but here goes. feel free to blast away after my post. animals do not have souls because they were not given the ability to choose to do right or wrong. the only animals that were was humans. the soul is our spiritual being. when we die our soul will be what goes to heaven. the bible says that we will be known in heaven as we were known on earth. but there will be no crying, or pain. . it also says that we will not know if any of our loved ones dont make it. so we will not remember anything that is bad or sad. there has been dr. and other medical staffer that have witnessed a wiff of smoke leave some people the minute they die. they say that they believe that it was something that they cant explain. maybe a soul. who knows.

I didn't really want this to be a bible-based debate.. Because the Bible doesn't give a reason for anything, it just claims that it happened.

Now, on your point.. do animals not choose between right and wrong? They do. They see what is beneficial to them and what is not beneficial to them. What will help them and what will not.. and they choose the best option as far as they can tell. Humans would not be making much more complicated choices between right and wrong if not for language. But animals do see what is bad and what is good to them. That's why animals who have been abused will avoid and be afraid of humans. They realize that getting near humans is a bad thing based on the past, and try to stay away.

Animals are not as smart as us, and they do not have language to communicate with. They do not make decisions with our level of intelligence, but that doesn't mean they don't make decisions.

And what about hybrid animal-humans? Do they get a soul? Scientists recently created a human-sheep hybrid that is 85% sheep and 15% human (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=444436&in_page_id=1770). We know it's possible to create half-humans. So do half-humans get a soul if they are ever created? Being human is not just a line between human and animal. Humans are animals (mammals), there is no argument against that. We share so much of our DNA with other mammals, our systems work basically the same, with different appearances and quirks.. etc.

In my opinion, the belief in a soul is a belief that originated out of human arrogance to try and put ourselves on a higher level of being. We want to believe that we are some sort of special race.. so special that we can be immortal and never again have to experience absolute nothingness. Death just doesn't sit well with us.. no... we have to die and then go somewhere after that.

But I still don't see any true founding for belief in a soul or any purpose a soul would truly serve in nature. I guess my point is.. It's so far removed from us, we will NEVER know for sure, and whether we believe in it or not will make zero difference as to whether it is true or not. You could call me a "soul agnostic" I guess... I just don't see why you would want to fill your life with superstition about things like these that make absolutely no difference. Of course I'm talking about belief in a soul on its own, without the company of religion. If you are religious, well.. you don't have to logically think about or consider the feasibility of a soul.. your holy book tells you what to think and what to believe, and I see no reason to debate such a firm and naive stance on the matter.

HAHAHAHAHAHA Really we know that? You are the one who talks about science "proof" before making a claim. Show me one internet link where there is absolute proof that science has discovered consciousness is created by the brain. Just one link where they have proof and not just a new theory of how they think the brain creates it.





And it just so happens that the brain is also a thought that exists in consciousness which science cannot prove is created by the brain.




This DOESN'T prove that consciousness comes from the brain. One scientist put it something like this. To say that when we get angry and that certain parts of the brain light up that doesn't prove that awareness or consciousness is created by the brain, it is like saying that because we change channels on a t.v and the images change correspondingly that, that is proof the images come from the t.v. This is not true the images are in fact decoded fequencies coming off of broadcasting towers.

Also emotions are consciousness. They are feelings created by chemicals inthe brain. However consciousness/awareness allows us to experience them and be aware of them.



What you fail to understand is that consciousness is awareness...........thoughts are not awareness...we are aware of thoughts.

And at death we could very easily still be aware because we havnt been able to prove that "awareness/consciousness" is a product of the brain. Unless I am wrong in which I'd like to see some links or something which explains how supposed unconscious matter creates self-aware consciousness/

To believe that consciousness is a byproduct or fucntion of biology is just as much an act of faith as it is to believe that it is a soul that can live on without the body.

We say when the body is dead it is unconscious. Yes the body may be so....but we are primarily consciousness and not the body so our consciousness may very well be conscious while the body isnt. This is quite the possibility since science or religion can prove that the body/brain creates consciousness.

Without consciousness there is no existence. No consciousness equals no world to be conscious of.

Yes life without language would be very different but we would still be conscious to some degree.

Yeah it is generally regarded as self-awareness but describe or physically define that self-awareness as it is in itself.

No offense buddy but you can't prove that consciousness isn't created by the brain. There is no hard evidence to suggest that consciousness exists without the brain.

You also have to consider that things like the five senses, emotion, and memory have everything to do with the brain. Everything we experienced in our lifetime
would end when we die. If the soul can store our memories and life experiences then there would be no reason for the brain to store them.

You base your conception of the soul and consciousness on faith while KBA bases it on science and Cadetak just doesn't assume or leave things to chance...but statistically speaking science has always had the odds in its favor and in a lot of cases ends up being right.

Like I have maintained the whole time. It is an act of faith either way.



But this isnt consciousness. No awareness equals no memories or fives senses or emotion and if so then we cant prove they are there because there would be no conscious observer to affirm it. They only exist to a subject who is there to percieve and experience them.



Science has no evdience that consciousness is created by the brain. So to believe so is an act of faith. Until it is proven that the brain creates consciousness then I'll stand corrected.

Also there are open minded scientists out there like Dr. Fred Alan Wolf (quantum phycisist) who believe that consciousness creates matter.

The difference between religious faith and scientific faith is that scientific faith tries to prove itself.

Are you saying that we cannot prove that things such as the five senses exist?

Here is a thought...if the brain doesn't produce consciousness then what does? An no you can't say God and you know why.

The brain is also a thought let us never forget. A thought that consciousness is aware of. Why would brains create self-aware awareness? For what purpose? Energy whether it is in brain form or not can never be destroyed and only change form. Why does this energy need to be aware of itself or why was it created? A pagan Roman philosopher called Cicero once asked :Why will you not admit the universe is a conscious intelligence since conscious intelligences are born from it?

Wouldnt it be so easy just to admit that the brain creates consciousness and then it dies when the body does? If the proof of that was conjured then all religion and much philosophy would be shut down.

But fortunately scientists are completely f*&^%$ as to how the brain does this. No proof. But mystics, shaman and religious scritpure for thousands of years have said that consciousness is something exists or transcend the phsyical plane.

Without consciousness we cant. No awareness equals no reality. The fives senses require an awareness/consciousness to be aware of them in order to be affirmed and experienced

consciousness was never created. It is eternal meaning it has always existed and always will. That is what I think anyway.

Thats interesting...if consciousness/the soul is eternal and always existed then that would mean that it has nothing to do with memory or perception.

If the soul is eternal then it existed before there was anything to perceive or remember.

If this much is true what is the purpose of the soul? If we are not our memories then what are we?

If I cannot remember anything then I don't have real consciousness because as soon as I perceive something or think anything I would forget it.

It is almost beyond a doubt that the brain stores memories...when the brain dies our memories would die. See where I'm going?

Or that memory and perception exist because of the soul. That all phenomena have their existence in it, of it and by it.



In deep sleep without dreams there is no memory or I-consciousness or I-am-the-body-consciousness yet we still exist because we say "I had a good sleep". If our memories were "real" then they would always exist but they dont in deep sleep. No awareness whatsoever. Not even a perceptive world.



If consciousness is eternal then what is there for it to remember or forget? A well respected scientist called Karl Pribram once asked the question of identity like this:

Since the Greeks, philosophers have been thinking about "the ghost in the machine", "the small man within the small man" etc. Where is this "I", the person who uses the brain? Who is it that realises the act of knowing? As Saint Franic of Assisi said: "What we search for is the one that sees."


This "the one that sees" or consciousness/awareness is a massive block for science. How do unaware or unconscious atoms(?) create the living awareness we call self? It is an open question with no solid answer in one sense.

My belief is that the body actually exists in the soul or consciousness and not vice versa.



or would they? What if the brain with all it's memories is stored in consciousness and when we die we take these memories with us? Memories are only thoughts of an illusion of time. Time too is a concept of thought. Who we are without thoughts and memories????????

F*&^ KNOWS!@! I BELIEVE IT IS THE ENLIGHTENED STATE! VERY FEW PEOPLE HAVE EVER REACHED THIS STATE! YOU'LL NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU EXPERIENCE IT! Apparently all the mystics agree we are already in this state of being but just havnt realized it. I have faith in this.

Ok.. on the whole "consciousness argument.. It's NOT an act of faith to believe consciousness is within the brain.. it is simply being reasonable. I know that I can take a hard fall and go unconscious, making me unaware of what is happening around me. If I get my leg chopped off, I probably won't go unconscious (unless i get overwhelmed and faint), but if I bang my head hard enough, there's a fair chance I will. If an inhuman soul is the reason for consciousness.. then how am I able to be unconscious by affecting the brain?

And I would argue that consciousness as you are speaking of it does not exist at all. "Consciousness" is simply perceiving your environment and making decisions in relation to it. The brain can and does do that.

Imagine if we didn't remember things. We had no short or long term memory, we only knew what was currently happening. We would be in total confusion all the time, we would quickly die, and we wouldn't understand anything that was going on. Arguably, our memories and ability to make decisions are what form consciousness, because they give us the ability to learn and act on what we learn.

Again please show a link or something where science has discovered proof of this "reasonable" claim. If you cannot then you are going by faith. Because to believe in something without proof is an act of faith.

Just the one link will do where they have discovered how brain matter creates awareness will be sufficient.





because the consciousness is wired to the brain and thinks through it so to be speak not from it. Consciousness cant be proven to have its existence dependent on the brain therefore we have to be open that it may exist independent of the brain. Once research proves that consciousness is created by matter then that will be evidence sufficient to overrule the notion of the soul.

Until then..........The soul in my books exists.

Think of it like this. The brain/body is the computer and the consciousness is the person using it. Through the computer on the internet we can express ourselves and thoughts according to the limitations of the comp. If the computer breaks down the user is unaffected and not broken down however the user can no longer express him/herself via the computer. The user is still conscious and alive while the computer has carked it.



So are you saying that without consciousness you can make decisions and be conscious of the environement around you? That is a miraculous claim!


Just remember though that we know we have a brain because we are conscious of the brain's existence. Do you think we would still be conscious of it without consciousness? IF THE BRAIN DID THIS AND CAN DO IT THEN CONSCIOUSNESS WOULDNT BE NEEDED WOULD IT? DO SOME RESEARCH AND UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CONSCIOUSNESS (SENSE OF SELF AND AWARENESS) AND THE BRAIN.




They form consciousness? Or is it because of consciousness we are able to be aware of our memories and learn from them? Remember it is because of consciousness that we are aware of our environment and memories. If there was no consciousness to be aware of them then how could we prove that they were there?

What gives us the ability to make decisions? Wouldnt this be consciousness itself? You say it like it is something different from consciousness and that this "ability" forms the consciousness required in the first place to make decisions.


Science cannot yet prove that consciousness is created by the brain and you say it isnt an act of faith to believe so? To believe something without proof is faith isnt it?

http://www.johnkharms.com/wave-brain.htm

An act of faith LMAO thats it?? your proof?? ...okaaayyy LMAO sorry I cant help it over here....in one thread we have - the world according to brave lol..now we have the mind according to brave too...

Hey man. That actually was a very decent link. And it is quite tricky to read with quantum mechanics involved etc and I appreciate the fact it uses parts of David Bohm's holographic theory. But the link shows a theory of how they think consciousness is created by matter and not proof.

Other than that it was a great read