Full Version: Why does everyone always jump to a conclusion
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
Probably because it was so horrible. Honestly, how many people had heard of the Nazis or Adolf Hitler prior to being told about WWII? You do something that horrible you are going to be remembered for that, and nothing else.
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
thats right fella, the German army at the start of ww2 was the best trained, equiped army in the world. it also used revolutionary tactics....the Blitzkrieg (lightning war).
people cant and shouldnt forget the horrors of war, and the stress it puts on society tho. The treatment of the jews was awful. But us brits invented concerntration camps in the Boer war in S.africa long before....lots of starvin people.
the book hitler wrote was called mein kampf i think...google it u can probably get it online....its mostly political and racial thinking....and not really worth the effort....its only a short book and it shows that hitler wasnt too bright. the nazis were people who followed National Socialism, Hitler's party. They came to power because Germany was run down after the first world war... many people were affraid of Communists, and there didnt seem to be much choice other than those two radical parties.
do some searches on google, or the bbc history learning site is good too.
the key to doing well in discussions is lots of reading....then youll have a good understanding of the topic, and may know things that others dont.
You can't find the book because it's called 'Mein Kampf', not Man Can. And really, Hitler was NOT a nice person. Don't trivialize the killing (in many different, horrible ways) of millions of people.
This is not jumping to a conclusion. This is simply associating something with something else. The main thing that we learn about in regards to Hitler and the Nazis is they they did very evil and horrific things, such as kill 6 million Jewish people and Jewish sympathizers. Other information about Hitlers personal life, life for the fact he was actually a very brillant man and an amazing public speaker, good enough to rally a country to jump at the sound of his footsteps, generally becomes secondary to the fact that he did indeed do many evil deeds.
I think that they should be remembered for their fame rather than their infamy, don't get me wrong, I'm not for killing masses of people, but they did do other things, and yet this is all they are remembered for.
You couldn't find it anywhere....because it is called Mein Kampf, available at Amazon.
I wouldn't agree that when discussing WWII or Nazi Germany....it's always involves the Jewish extermination. That is only one part of a very large picture.
http://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/0395925037
I wouldn't agree that when discussing WWII or Nazi Germany....it's always involves the Jewish extermination. That is only one part of a very large picture.
http://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/0395925037
I don't think Hilter deserves to be remembered for anything more than the things he did which lead to War and extreme numbers of lives slaughtered, personally. If anyone cares to learn more about the man, the information is readily available.
Well put, Burnside!
THE MOST important thing about Hitler was that he was responsible for killing millions of Jews. And Gypsies. And handicapped people. And Slavs. And prisoners. And dissenters. And homosexuals. And catholics. And on and on.
Any other skills he may have excelled at only facilitated these murders and the deaths of all the other servicemen (on both sides) who died in the Second World War.
It's a pity nobody bought his paintings. Then he would have just been a loud-mouthed, racist artist.
--Jaylemurph
THE MOST important thing about Hitler was that he was responsible for killing millions of Jews. And Gypsies. And handicapped people. And Slavs. And prisoners. And dissenters. And homosexuals. And catholics. And on and on.
Any other skills he may have excelled at only facilitated these murders and the deaths of all the other servicemen (on both sides) who died in the Second World War.
It's a pity nobody bought his paintings. Then he would have just been a loud-mouthed, racist artist.
--Jaylemurph
that's mankind. only remembers your mistake not the achievements you've made.
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
Because it's easier to think with your emotions then using logic. Logic smogic. Sure Julius Caesar toppled a democracy and killed millions of people too, but his killing was more indiscriminate therefore less hateful.
Do you understand now?
...and to combine the previous two posts, a quote from Julius Caesar:
"The evil that men do lives on after them,
The good too oft is interred with their bones."
--Jaylemurph
"The evil that men do lives on after them,
The good too oft is interred with their bones."
--Jaylemurph
Hitler was a brilliant man and a skilled politician - and evil as a man can get. What he was able to do with the emotionally destroyed Germans after WWI, restoring the faith they had in their country, the huge amounts of civil projects that were completed in record time, the autobahn system that is still in use today... he was a great man.
He also wholeheartedly believed that the reason that they were defeated in WWI was due to (insert all those groups he ended up slaughtering) meddling in affairs that they shouldn't. He organized ostrasizing, then segregation, then incarceration, then wholesale murder to take care of these problems. He was an evil, bad man.
The two faces of the guy are so different that many can't grasp the other side. I fully understand why some can't see him as anything other than a demon - and why others believe him to be a saint.
Because of his attitudes about (those) people, he was able to suspend many of the ethical rules that we followed then - and still do today - and do medical experiments on genetics and digestion and pressure effects (for pilots and divers) that are still considered almost cutting edge today. We would NEVER consider doing what he did now - and many very ethical scientists turn a blind eye on how he got his data when they use his info to further their own research.
He was amazing - both good AND bad.
He also wholeheartedly believed that the reason that they were defeated in WWI was due to (insert all those groups he ended up slaughtering) meddling in affairs that they shouldn't. He organized ostrasizing, then segregation, then incarceration, then wholesale murder to take care of these problems. He was an evil, bad man.
The two faces of the guy are so different that many can't grasp the other side. I fully understand why some can't see him as anything other than a demon - and why others believe him to be a saint.
Because of his attitudes about (those) people, he was able to suspend many of the ethical rules that we followed then - and still do today - and do medical experiments on genetics and digestion and pressure effects (for pilots and divers) that are still considered almost cutting edge today. We would NEVER consider doing what he did now - and many very ethical scientists turn a blind eye on how he got his data when they use his info to further their own research.
He was amazing - both good AND bad.
One of the better sources of Hitler info is John Toland's "Adolf Hitler", vol I and II.
People generally associate vicious behavior with lack of intellect--not necessarily true. Hitler was as moving an orator as will ever be found anywhere. It was simply a matter of circumstance his coming to power. Had the allies not bankrupted Germany after WWI, chances are he would never have gained the following, and the Brown Shirt tactics would not have been tolerated by the Germans themselves.
Toland also maintains that drugs were partially at fault. It is thought that Hitler was suffering from an extended poisoning by arsenic, used in anti-gas (flatulence) pills prescribed by Hitler's personal physician (also described as what we would now call a quack).
However, never will I condone, nor should anyone else, mass murder in any form, be it Nazi, Communist, or Democracy that performs said act. Personally, I think the world should rise up and mash whosoever acts in such manner, regardless of their reasoning.
People generally associate vicious behavior with lack of intellect--not necessarily true. Hitler was as moving an orator as will ever be found anywhere. It was simply a matter of circumstance his coming to power. Had the allies not bankrupted Germany after WWI, chances are he would never have gained the following, and the Brown Shirt tactics would not have been tolerated by the Germans themselves.
Toland also maintains that drugs were partially at fault. It is thought that Hitler was suffering from an extended poisoning by arsenic, used in anti-gas (flatulence) pills prescribed by Hitler's personal physician (also described as what we would now call a quack).
However, never will I condone, nor should anyone else, mass murder in any form, be it Nazi, Communist, or Democracy that performs said act. Personally, I think the world should rise up and mash whosoever acts in such manner, regardless of their reasoning.
All you have to do is realize that most NAZI's were either in the SS or had some political position. Barely anyone in the Wehrmacht and other German military forces were supporting nazism, only their fatherland and loved ones.
QUOTE(BurnSide @ Mar 28 2007, 02:26 PM) [snapback]1603709[/snapback]
This is not jumping to a conclusion. This is simply associating something with something else. The main thing that we learn about in regards to Hitler and the Nazis is they they did very evil and horrific things, such as kill 6 million Jewish people and Jewish sympathizers. Other information about Hitlers personal life, life for the fact he was actually a very brillant man and an amazing public speaker, good enough to rally a country to jump at the sound of his footsteps, generally becomes secondary to the fact that he did indeed do many evil deeds.
lol hitler wasn't brilliant. he was of average intelligence and failed to get into art school twice ( what he really wanted to do was be an artist) after which he was homeless . He hadn't been educated enough, He did not have a high school education .it's also rumored he was partly jewish which may have been why he hid his backround. no one knows.
from Inside the Third Reich -
Hitler had extremely unstable work habits that included staying up very late (typically until 5 or 6AM) and then sleeping until about noon, spending hours upon hours at meals and tea parties, and wasting both his time and that of colleagues with movies and long, boring monologues. He was incapable of normal office work. In the memoirs, Speer openly wondered when exactly Hitler ever found time to do anything important. On his personal life, Speer remarked that Eva Braun had told him, in the middle of 1943, that Hitler was too busy, too immersed, and too tired to have sex with her.
Listening to the Führer, Speer concluded that Hitler was incapable of growth, either emotional or intellectual. Because Hitler could charm people (including Speer himself), Speer also believed Hitler was a sociopath and megalomaniac. Even in 1945, when Germany's armed forces were all but destroyed, Speer could not convince Hitler to admit defeat, or even to go on the defensive.
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
I always thought it curious how Hitler hated the Jews and tried to create an Arian Race of blonde haired, blue eyed people. Bearing in mind he was a Jew and had brown hair - not sure about the colour of his eyes mind - but that would cap it all if they were brown!
Punish3ment, don't ever think about putting Hitler on some sort of pedestal, he was a total nut and completely overshadowed by the dark side. Millions of people who died and were tortured owe their death and suffering to this insane excuse for a human being. Any good he may ever have done was immediately wiped out by the sheer magnitude of suffering of what should have been his fellow human beings.
The same goes for all the other insane and mad leaders in the world in times gone by and in the present.
The only thing that comes out of any of this is that (hopefully) it will NEVER happen again.
His attempt to end WWII nearly resulted in Germany making their own atom bomb - if he had succeeded, I don't think any treaty would have been forthcoming or would even have been attempted.
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 03:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
Hitler was always insisting that he was a man of peace; he managed to fool a lot of people, while he was knocking off country after country.
As for his military successes, these were owing more to serious errors made on the part of the allies than they were to Nazi brilliance. One of their greatest victories was the swift and decisive defeat of France. The French had placed their trust in their Maginot Line, which was an excellent fortification built along the French-German border. The Germans sidestepped this barricade by invading neutral Holland and Belgium; this should not have been any surprise to the French, since the Germans had done the same thing in the First World War. Even with this 'unexpected' move, and the further surprise of taking their army through the undefended Ardennes forest, the French and British armies should have been able to deal with this attack. The French and British then made the insane blunder of retreating away from their supply lines; the German army then sliced across and severed their supply lines, leaving the bulk of the French and British armies incapacitated, and forced to make an emergency evacuation at Dunkirk. It was a brilliant moneuvre that allowed the Germans to claim France with only minimal casualties, but which came more from the Germans getting lucky, than it was from military genius. As later events would prove, the Nazis never realized what they had done, as in later battles such as the Battle of Stalingrad, they had reverted to traditional tactics that resulted in millions of casualties.
If history only remembers that a madman once ruled an empire, there would be nothing undeserving in this recognition.
Will need some help from a more knowledgeable person on this -
Had Hitler been more skilled he would not have opened two fronts of war.
Why did Hitler not send a small contingent to inspect British resistance. The fact that he believed Britain so strong was quite an undoing.
BIG THING
Prior to WWII officially beginning (many may argue it started 1933 or earlier as Hitler came to power) were Britain and Italy arguing over control of African nations? Germany saw this involvement and commitment of powers as a chance to strike.
Need some assistance on this, but can try and locate smoe info on the net.
Had Hitler been more skilled he would not have opened two fronts of war.
Why did Hitler not send a small contingent to inspect British resistance. The fact that he believed Britain so strong was quite an undoing.
BIG THING
Prior to WWII officially beginning (many may argue it started 1933 or earlier as Hitler came to power) were Britain and Italy arguing over control of African nations? Germany saw this involvement and commitment of powers as a chance to strike.
Need some assistance on this, but can try and locate smoe info on the net.
QUOTE(crouton @ Mar 29 2007, 04:26 AM) [snapback]1603708[/snapback]
You can't find the book because it's called 'Mein Kampf', not Man Can. And really, Hitler was NOT a nice person. Don't trivialize the killing (in many different, horrible ways) of millions of people.
LOL, I burst into laughter when I read "Man Can"
"Evil when you are in its grasp is not felt as evil but as a necessity or even a duty"
QUOTE(Malruhn @ Mar 28 2007, 08:06 PM) [snapback]1603813[/snapback]
He was amazing - both good AND bad.
amazin?..no,stonehenge is amazing,the great pyramids of egypt are amazing,but hitler...never,by the way,could you ever be amazing if your bad? or is it just he is amazingly bad?full stop
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 03:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
We have to be careful otherwise readers will assume we are pro-Hitler. I am certainly not.
Most will remember (or have learned) that he was evil and sent many Jews to their death and so on...
Few will realise that the League of Nations did not intervene (sp?) when Italy invaded Abyssinia. This gave Hitler the green light to invade Poland, which he duly obliged. A few slaps on the wrist and no real action gave Hitler the confidence to continue the war machine.
Point the finger at Hitler for his actions, but point the finger at the LON for their lack of action.
QUOTE(Roj47 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:52 PM) [snapback]1604815[/snapback]
We have to be careful otherwise readers will assume we are pro-Hitler. I am certainly not.
Most will remember (or have learned) that he was evil and sent many Jews to their death and so on...
Few will realise that the League of Nations did not intervene (sp?) when Italy invaded Abyssinia. This gave Hitler the green light to invade Poland, which he duly obliged. A few slaps on the wrist and no real action gave Hitler the confidence to continue the war machine.
Point the finger at Hitler for his actions, but point the finger at the LON for their lack of action.
Most will remember (or have learned) that he was evil and sent many Jews to their death and so on...
Few will realise that the League of Nations did not intervene (sp?) when Italy invaded Abyssinia. This gave Hitler the green light to invade Poland, which he duly obliged. A few slaps on the wrist and no real action gave Hitler the confidence to continue the war machine.
Point the finger at Hitler for his actions, but point the finger at the LON for their lack of action.
Yes, this is a sensitive subject so i should clarify that i am SO not pro Hitler.
MMM, very good point! There are also some pre-war aspects that have been overlooked that do not relate to our methods of action against hitler or how we stopped him. I am talking about customs of the time that may have influenced him in his views and actions....any ideas?
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
May i suggest go back to your history class & do some more intense study on the subject. My father faught in the war & told me some of what went on, but mostly doesn't want to remember it.
Please do your homework befor you start to suggest that hilter wasn't such a bad guy really.
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 10:45 AM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
Here's a little bit of info for you that can help answer this query:
QUOTE
Nazi mystics believed in historical Thule/Hyperborea as the ancient origin of the Aryan race. The Traditionalist School expositor Rene Guenon believed in the existence of ancient Thule on "initiatic grounds alone". According to its emblem, the Thule Society was founded in 1919. It had close links to the Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (DAP), later the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP, the Nazi party). One of its three founder members was Lanz von Liebenfels (1874–1954). In his biography of Liebenfels ("Der Mann, der Hitler die Ideen gab", Munich 1985), the Viennese psychologist and author Dr Wilhelm Dahm wrote: "The Thule Gesellschaft name originated from mythical Thule, a Nordic equivalent of the vanished culture of Atlantis. A race of giant supermen lived in Thule, linked into the Cosmos through magical powers. They had psychic and technological energies far exceeding the technical achievements of the 20th century. This knowledge was to be put to use to save the Fatherland and create a new race of Nordic Aryan Atlanteans. A new Messiah would come forward to lead the people to this goal."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
...
More info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
QUOTE(itsnotoutthere @ Mar 29 2007, 05:59 PM) [snapback]1604932[/snapback]
May i suggest go back to your history class & do some more intense study on the subject. My father faught in the war & told me some of what went on, but mostly doesn't want to remember it.
Please do your homework befor you start to suggest that hilter wasn't such a bad guy really.
Please do your homework befor you start to suggest that hilter wasn't such a bad guy really.
QUOTE(punish3ment @ Mar 28 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]1603691[/snapback]
I was in history today, and we were discussing Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. Why is it that whenever someone mentions hitler or nazis people immediatly think about when they killed jews!!! I know that it was an extreamly evil thing to do, But the nazis were on of the most trained and tactical armies in WWI. Adolf Hitler also wrote a book called 'Man Can' aparantally, telling the public about his attempted treaties with Britain and other countries and the attempt to end WWII as soon as possible, and I can't find it anywhere! Anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought of about this matter, whenever I try to talk to others in my class, I always loose.
Hi itsnotoutthere
I was unable to spot where punish3ment was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy really". He enquired as to peoples attitudes towards Hitler which i do not think suggests that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He even states that the holocaust was evil, i do not see how that can be confused with suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He mentions how well trained they were, which does not suggest that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". And he also expressed an interest in a book which Hitler wrote which i also do not feel suggests that he was implying "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He finished his quieries by asking what other people thought about the matter.
I notice that your thought was that he was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". I do not agree with this, i do not think he was suggesting that at all. My father is Polish and spent much of the war in Nazi concentration camps....thats all i know....he doesnt talk about it at all.
HA HAAAA, BURN ALL COPIES OF MEIN KAMPF AND BELITTLE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT!!!!
hmm, back to my quiery on the matter...
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(Wolf MacCanine @ Mar 29 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]1604951[/snapback]
Here's a little bit of info for you that can help answer this query:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
...
More info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
...
More info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
MMM, WOW, thats excellent yes, CHEERS Wolf
. These ideals that people aspire to are very interesting, does anyone know of/think of any other ideals that Hitler may have been aspiring to?....maybe there were some modern ones aswell.
ha haaa, thanks again
Regards
nn23
You're welcome.
I happened to run across mentions of the Thule Society back in the 70's,but didn't get to read much about it until I was reminded of it a few years ago.
I do believe there are some other sites that may have some more in-depth info about this,but I decided to just give you the quickest one that I knew of.
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 01:28 PM) [snapback]1604974[/snapback]
Hi itsnotoutthere
I was unable to spot where punish3ment was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy really". He enquired as to peoples attitudes towards Hitler which i do not think suggests that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He even states that the holocaust was evil, i do not see how that can be confused with suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He mentions how well trained they were, which does not suggest that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". And he also expressed an interest in a book which Hitler wrote which i also do not feel suggests that he was implying "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He finished his quieries by asking what other people thought about the matter.
I notice that your thought was that he was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". I do not agree with this, i do not think he was suggesting that at all. My father is Polish and spent much of the war in Nazi concentration camps....thats all i know....he doesnt talk about it at all.
HA HAAAA, BURN ALL COPIES OF MEIN KAMPF AND BELITTLE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT!!!!
hmm, back to my quiery on the matter...
Regards
nn23
I was unable to spot where punish3ment was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy really". He enquired as to peoples attitudes towards Hitler which i do not think suggests that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He even states that the holocaust was evil, i do not see how that can be confused with suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He mentions how well trained they were, which does not suggest that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". And he also expressed an interest in a book which Hitler wrote which i also do not feel suggests that he was implying "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". He finished his quieries by asking what other people thought about the matter.
I notice that your thought was that he was suggesting that "Hitler wasnt such a bad guy". I do not agree with this, i do not think he was suggesting that at all. My father is Polish and spent much of the war in Nazi concentration camps....thats all i know....he doesnt talk about it at all.
HA HAAAA, BURN ALL COPIES OF MEIN KAMPF AND BELITTLE ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT!!!!
hmm, back to my quiery on the matter...
Regards
nn23
No, even the OP was smart enough not to be that literal, and he isn't even doing his homework.
But it certainly was in the context of the post. I don't think it's wrong to examine the rise of the Nazis or what inspired it, but only to understand it and keep it from happening again. I think anything that tries to mitigate or lionize what they did is ipse re suspect.
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 29 2007, 07:04 PM) [snapback]1605027[/snapback]
I think anything that tries to mitigate or lionize what they did is ipse re suspect.
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
yes, that makes sense....suspect of what?RE: mitigating and Lionising what Hitler and the Nazis did
I do not like the idea of hurting anybody whatever the reason or race. I feel that what the Nazis did to the jews aswell as ALL the other social groups in the war and on those concentration camps is horrific. War is a horrific thing. I do not support ANY of Hitlers justifications ideas beliefs or actions.
On with my main queiry...
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(Wolf MacCanine @ Mar 29 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]1604951[/snapback]
Here's a little bit of info for you that can help answer this query:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
...
More info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule
...
More info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 06:38 PM) [snapback]1604985[/snapback]
MMM, WOW, thats excellent yes, CHEERS Wolf . These ideals that people aspire to are very interesting, does anyone know of/think of any other ideals that Hitler may have been aspiring to?
....maybe there were some modern ones aswell.
ha haaa, thanks again
Regards
nn23
. These ideals that people aspire to are very interesting, does anyone know of/think of any other ideals that Hitler may have been aspiring to?....maybe there were some modern ones aswell.
ha haaa, thanks again
Regards
nn23
Any information/ideas?
Regards
nn23
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 03:43 PM) [snapback]1605189[/snapback]
yes, that makes sense....suspect of what?RE: mitigating and Lionising what Hitler and the Nazis did
I do not like the idea of hurting anybody whatever the reason or race. I feel that what the Nazis did to the jews aswell as ALL the other social groups in the war and on those concentration camps is horrific. War is a horrific thing. I do not support ANY of Hitlers justifications ideas beliefs or actions.
nn23
Suspect of being at least a bigot and a racist.
If you "do not like the idea of hurting anybody whatever the reason or the race", then why give two hoots about the Nazis? It's their only legacy. Hitler may have been a genius, but the only thing he did with that genius was mislead his countrymen into genocide, kill millions, and start a terrible war. Make that sound good. Or even neutral.
If you "do not support ANY of Hitlers [sic] justification ideas beliefs or actions [double sic]", then why on Earth do anything but say he was evil? Why mitigate what he did or try to glamourize it?
--Jaylemurph
Knock yourself out peeps...
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archi..._shambhala.html
I got through about 2/3's of this, and found it pretty informative. The source seemed to be pretty legit too. My bad if it turns sour.
As far as hitler being a genius, bad guy/good guy etc...etc... I believe he was brilliant in one regard and one regard only - His uncanny ability to fool his audience. Public speaking. Not that Germany really needed much of a push at that point for belief in a cause, but to wrangle politica power (not his first attempt btw), maintain control through fear, grow his army and country support while exerting his master plan accross the globe - that takes a certain level of character. Black as his heart was, his tenacity was beyond measure as was his lust for power and world domination. He found the weekness and expoited it. Sure anyone could've done that given the same opportunities. But look who did.
And Jaylemurph - thanks for pointing out that the Jews weren't the only demographic that was systematically sought out and exterminated by Hitlers regime.
Hitler also wrote that book 'Mein Kempf' (originally titled 'Four Years of Struggle against Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice'. But shortened to 'My Struggle' or Mein Kempf), in his 5 years in prison serving a sentence for trying to overthrow a Bovarians political Heads in attempts to springboard his German rulership, call the 'Beer Hall Putsch'. Silly Nazi....
"On 8th November, 1923, the Bavarian government held a meeting of about 3,000 officials. While Gustav von Kahr, the prime minister of Bavaria was making a speech, Adolf Hitler and armed stormtroopers entering the building. Hitler jumped onto a table, fired two shots in the air and told the audience that the Munich Putsch was taking place and the National Revolution had began....."
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archi..._shambhala.html
I got through about 2/3's of this, and found it pretty informative. The source seemed to be pretty legit too. My bad if it turns sour.
As far as hitler being a genius, bad guy/good guy etc...etc... I believe he was brilliant in one regard and one regard only - His uncanny ability to fool his audience. Public speaking. Not that Germany really needed much of a push at that point for belief in a cause, but to wrangle politica power (not his first attempt btw), maintain control through fear, grow his army and country support while exerting his master plan accross the globe - that takes a certain level of character. Black as his heart was, his tenacity was beyond measure as was his lust for power and world domination. He found the weekness and expoited it. Sure anyone could've done that given the same opportunities. But look who did.
And Jaylemurph - thanks for pointing out that the Jews weren't the only demographic that was systematically sought out and exterminated by Hitlers regime.
Hitler also wrote that book 'Mein Kempf' (originally titled 'Four Years of Struggle against Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice'. But shortened to 'My Struggle' or Mein Kempf), in his 5 years in prison serving a sentence for trying to overthrow a Bovarians political Heads in attempts to springboard his German rulership, call the 'Beer Hall Putsch'. Silly Nazi....
"On 8th November, 1923, the Bavarian government held a meeting of about 3,000 officials. While Gustav von Kahr, the prime minister of Bavaria was making a speech, Adolf Hitler and armed stormtroopers entering the building. Hitler jumped onto a table, fired two shots in the air and told the audience that the Munich Putsch was taking place and the National Revolution had began....."
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitler.htm
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 29 2007, 07:04 PM) [snapback]1605027[/snapback]
I think anything that tries to mitigate or lionize what they did is ipse re suspect.
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 08:43 PM) [snapback]1605189[/snapback]
yes, that makes sense....suspect of what?QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 29 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]1605196[/snapback]
Suspect of being at least a bigot and a racist.
If you "do not like the idea of hurting anybody whatever the reason or the race", then why give two hoots about the Nazis? It's their only legacy. Hitler may have been a genius, but the only thing he did with that genius was mislead his countrymen into genocide, kill millions, and start a terrible war. Make that sound good. Or even neutral.
If you "do not support ANY of Hitlers [sic] justification ideas beliefs or actions [double sic]", then why on Earth do anything but say he was evil? Why mitigate what he did or try to glamourize it?
--Jaylemurph
If you "do not like the idea of hurting anybody whatever the reason or the race", then why give two hoots about the Nazis? It's their only legacy. Hitler may have been a genius, but the only thing he did with that genius was mislead his countrymen into genocide, kill millions, and start a terrible war. Make that sound good. Or even neutral.
If you "do not support ANY of Hitlers [sic] justification ideas beliefs or actions [double sic]", then why on Earth do anything but say he was evil? Why mitigate what he did or try to glamourize it?
--Jaylemurph
mmm, does that rule apply to anyone who mitigates and lionises in general or is it just Hitler and the Nazis?
Have i done anything to glamorize it? Your writing conveys irritation and if this is because of anything i have written, i do apologise, that is not my intention. I am however interested in every aspect of history, evil or not. I am also interested in all the causes for tradegy not as a means for mitigating or lionising those who are responsible but just as a way to understand the bigger picture. Maybe this will have no effect what so ever on my feelings (as stated above) towards the matter...or who knows, perhaps it will?* The point is by asking appropriate questions and conducting expansive research in debates helps to move away from the simplified discriminating portrayls that turn people into the racist bigots that you are so worried about.
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 29 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]1605196[/snapback]
then why on Earth do anything but say he was evil? Why mitigate what he did or try to glamourize it?
--Jaylemurph
OK! Jaylemurph, lets take that line of thinking....--Jaylemurph
"Hitler was EVIL and thats that, subject closed!!!"
uh oh, according to the defination, now i really AM a Bigot!
Bigot = somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dic...efid=1861590432
Going back to your line, i disagree that anyone who tries to mitigate or lionise what Hitler did is suspect of being a racist or a bigot for i may not know the context which the person is talking in, i would reserve my judgement simply to avoid becoming a racist or a bigot myself
. The person in question may simply appear to be mitigating or lioniseing because of the way we have interpretted what they have said.regards
nn23
*changed feelings on the matter does not mean suddenly becoming Pro Nazi, i dont know what it means because they havnt changed yet. I shall not rule out the possibility of my feelings changing because i am open to other peoples opinions whether they are for or against good or evil. I like to evaluate using all the information and oppinions available.
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 07:23 PM) [snapback]1605446[/snapback]
mmm, does that rule apply to anyone who mitigates and lionises in general or is it just Hitler and the Nazis?
Have i done anything to glamorize it? Your writing conveys irritation and if this is because of anything i have written, i do apologise, that is not my intention. I am however interested in every aspect of history, evil or not. I am also interested in all the causes for tradegy not as a means for mitigating or lionising those who are responsible but just as a way to understand the bigger picture. Maybe this will have no effect what so ever on my feelings (as stated above) towards the matter...or who knows, perhaps it will?* The point is by asking appropriate questions and conducting expansive research in debates helps to move away from the simplified discriminating portrayls that turn people into the racist bigots that you are so worried about.
OK! Jaylemurph, lets take that line of thinking....
"Hitler was EVIL and thats that, subject closed!!!"
uh oh, according to the defination, now i really AM a Bigot!
Bigot = somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dic...efid=1861590432
Going back to your line, i disagree that anyone who tries to mitigate or lionise what Hitler did is suspect of being a racist or a bigot for i may not know the context which the person is talking in, i would reserve my judgement simply to avoid becoming a racist or a bigot myself . The person in question may simply appear to be mitigating or lioniseing because of the way we have interpretted what they have said.
regards
nn23
*changed feelings on the matter does not mean suddenly becoming Pro Nazi, i dont know what it means because they havnt changed yet. I shall not rule out the possibility of my feelings changing because i am open to other peoples opinions whether they are for or against good or evil. I like to evaluate using all the information and oppinions available.
Have i done anything to glamorize it? Your writing conveys irritation and if this is because of anything i have written, i do apologise, that is not my intention. I am however interested in every aspect of history, evil or not. I am also interested in all the causes for tradegy not as a means for mitigating or lionising those who are responsible but just as a way to understand the bigger picture. Maybe this will have no effect what so ever on my feelings (as stated above) towards the matter...or who knows, perhaps it will?* The point is by asking appropriate questions and conducting expansive research in debates helps to move away from the simplified discriminating portrayls that turn people into the racist bigots that you are so worried about.
OK! Jaylemurph, lets take that line of thinking....
"Hitler was EVIL and thats that, subject closed!!!"
uh oh, according to the defination, now i really AM a Bigot!
Bigot = somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dic...efid=1861590432
Going back to your line, i disagree that anyone who tries to mitigate or lionise what Hitler did is suspect of being a racist or a bigot for i may not know the context which the person is talking in, i would reserve my judgement simply to avoid becoming a racist or a bigot myself
. The person in question may simply appear to be mitigating or lioniseing because of the way we have interpretted what they have said.regards
nn23
*changed feelings on the matter does not mean suddenly becoming Pro Nazi, i dont know what it means because they havnt changed yet. I shall not rule out the possibility of my feelings changing because i am open to other peoples opinions whether they are for or against good or evil. I like to evaluate using all the information and oppinions available.
Then you clearly haven't been reading my posts.
I said: "I don't think it's wrong to examine the rise of the Nazis or what inspired it, but only to understand it and keep it from happening again." I stand by that.
Saying something along the lines of "Well, what Hitler did was bad, /but/..." is the beginning of a slippery slope that only ends with excusing genocide. If we can't look at Hitler and say "That was unmitigated, inexcusable evil. The likes of that should never be allowed to happen again", then we no longer deserve to call ourselves a decent species.
I'm not some sort of fundamentalist; I believe there's a lot of grey space in morality. But I also think Hitler's actions are one of the few things that the entirety of mankind and look at say "this was a bad thing". Anything that attempts to change that deserves to bear intense scrutiny and needs to be challenged, especially when it comes from the mouth of a young person without the education or life experience to know better. The OP -- or perhaps yourself -- ought to go spend some time in Darfur before trying to condone genocide or the persons behind it.
Or at least to read the article in this week's New York Times Book Review about the German (and vaguely Nazi-affiliated) director Leni Riefenstahl (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/books/review/James.t.html?_r=1&ref=review&oref=slogin).
--Jaylemurph
I still dont get what was so great about his public speaking. Maybe its my aspergers.
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
Then you clearly haven't been reading my posts.
I have, thats why i make comment on specific quotes from them.QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
I said: "I don't think it's wrong to examine the rise of the Nazis or what inspired it, but only to understand it and keep it from happening again." I stand by that.
I agreed with that earlier so saw no point in discussing it QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
Saying something along the lines of "Well, what Hitler did was bad, /but/..." is the beginning of a slippery slope that only ends with excusing genocide.
This is a judgement, there are some who say that making prejudgments is "the beginning of a slippery slope". QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
If we can't look at Hitler and say "That was unmitigated, inexcusable evil. The likes of that should never be allowed to happen again", then we no longer deserve to call ourselves a decent species.
.....The things that took place in ww2 especially in relation to the ideals and actions of Hitler and Nazism were evil, unmitigated, inexcusable and should never be allowed to happen again..yes, i agree with this QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
I'm not some sort of fundamentalist; I believe there's a lot of grey space in morality. But I also think Hitler's actions are one of the few things that the entirety of mankind and look at say "this was a bad thing".
it certainly was not a good thing, i bare the secondary wounds.QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
Anything that attempts to change that deserves to bear intense scrutiny and needs to be challenged, especially when it comes from the mouth of a young person without the education or life experience to know better.
Any person who plans to challenge somebody who chooses to look beyond the unchangeable fact that it was a bad thing need to be careful that they do not misinterprett someones motives towards learning more, as an "attempt to change that".
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
especially when it comes from the mouth of a young person without the education or life experience
Why did you say this to me?....i....i am actually offended by this, i hope that wasnt your intention. You do not know me, my age, or the experiences i have encountered in my life. Prejudge this as you wish. QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
The OP -- or perhaps yourself -- ought to go spend some time in Darfur before trying to condone genocide or the persons behind it.
Again as i asked about your glamorising implication, i do not recall condoning genocide or Hitlers actions and i shall continue to research whatever i will and can find consistant and validated evidence for on any subject i am free to choose.I also would like to say that i am actually finding your unfounded implicative accusations that i might be "trying to condone genocide" or "try to glamorise it" quite offensive and would appreciate it if you did not attatch false motives to my intentions.
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]1605464[/snapback]
Or at least to read the article in this week's New York Times Book Review about the German (and vaguely Nazi-affiliated) director Leni Riefenstahl (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/books/review/James.t.html?_r=1&ref=review&oref=slogin).
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
yeah, cheers for that i'll definately give it a read...who knows, maybe it'll change my mind about a few things QUOTE(Ryo Ohki @ Mar 30 2007, 12:53 AM) [snapback]1605476[/snapback]
I still dont get what was so great about his public speaking. Maybe its my aspergers.
HA HAAA, yeah, I dont get it either, if you ask me he looks and sounds a little highly strung 
Regards
nn23
This is a judgement, there are some who say that making prejudgments is "the beginning of a slippery slope".
It is not a pre-judgment to say the Nazis were bad. It is not a pre-judgment to say Hitler was bad. I stand by by my refusal to reconsider the subject and my conviction that defending Hitler in any way is a bad thing. I'm not saying you have to believe such, but I see no other end to trivializing (at best) or excusing (at worst) genocide from the beginning of defending Hitler.
Why did you say this to me?....i....i am actually offended by this, i hope that wasnt your intention. You do not know me, my age, or the experiences i have encountered in my life. Prejudge this as you wish.
I didn't. I was referring to the OP who clearly stated he was in school.
Again as i asked about your glamorising implication, i do not recall condoning genocide or Hitlers actions and i shall continue to research whatever i will and can find consistant and validated evidence for on any subject i am free to choose.
Umm, go ahead. I can't stop anyone for doing much -- even my dog still takes an occasional pee on the floor -- and I wouldn't stop people from researching anything.
I also would like to say that i am actually finding your unfounded implicative accusations that i might be "trying to condone genocide" or "try to glamorise it" quite offensive and would appreciate it if you did not attatch false motives to my intentions.
I'm quite old enough and quite literate enough to make my own charges. If I had thought you were actually doing these things I probably would have said "Hey you Neo-Nazi scumbag, Hitler sux and you do, too." You will notice the lack of such explicit insults or accusations in my posts. Although I do appreciate the irony of you actually doing what you impute to me.
--Jaylemurph
It is not a pre-judgment to say the Nazis were bad. It is not a pre-judgment to say Hitler was bad. I stand by by my refusal to reconsider the subject and my conviction that defending Hitler in any way is a bad thing. I'm not saying you have to believe such, but I see no other end to trivializing (at best) or excusing (at worst) genocide from the beginning of defending Hitler.
Why did you say this to me?....i....i am actually offended by this, i hope that wasnt your intention. You do not know me, my age, or the experiences i have encountered in my life. Prejudge this as you wish.
I didn't. I was referring to the OP who clearly stated he was in school.
Again as i asked about your glamorising implication, i do not recall condoning genocide or Hitlers actions and i shall continue to research whatever i will and can find consistant and validated evidence for on any subject i am free to choose.
Umm, go ahead. I can't stop anyone for doing much -- even my dog still takes an occasional pee on the floor -- and I wouldn't stop people from researching anything.
I also would like to say that i am actually finding your unfounded implicative accusations that i might be "trying to condone genocide" or "try to glamorise it" quite offensive and would appreciate it if you did not attatch false motives to my intentions.
I'm quite old enough and quite literate enough to make my own charges. If I had thought you were actually doing these things I probably would have said "Hey you Neo-Nazi scumbag, Hitler sux and you do, too." You will notice the lack of such explicit insults or accusations in my posts. Although I do appreciate the irony of you actually doing what you impute to me.
--Jaylemurph
Energy; enthusiasm; optimism; rightiousness; uncompromissed passions; uniting a nation behind a cause; strength as a leader; outspokeness in his values..... none of this made him a worthwhile orator? Ok.... However <i>His ability to sense an opportunity and exploit the weekness in a nation to bend to his own vision</i> set him ........ *****trails off in thought.........****
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait........hang on here...... Now Im starting to think????....(which is what these boards tend to make us do....). Was Hitler ACTUALLY a brilliant orator? An exceptional motivational speaker? A genius social coordinator? OR???.... was he just a megalomaniac extremist who happened to be at the right place at the right time?
Hmmmmm....
His previous life's actions would tell that he really didn't have a nack for conforming under any other lead than his own. Nor a nack for impeccable timing or clever planning? "The Beer Hall Putch" - what put him in prison seemed a very poorly executed project, that only continued to spiral wildly to his eventual trial and conviction. A very extreme approach, fueled mainly with aggression and fear. Had he rec'd the proper sentence for this treason, he'd of been dead years before he took over German political power?! But instead he was allowed 5 years to gestate, scheme out his plans for mass propaganda, justify his twisted vision with falsey interpreted oppression, and continued to flesh out his project and militant entourage (illustrated in his Mein Kemf) with the fire of someone uncompromising, irrational, unacountable and unimpeded by any outside force. Germany was looking for strenght and leadership and perhaps to be a world contender already. But no one took to the podium with quite as much enthusiasm and passion for the common goal of a powerful country and vision of world peace for families and children!? Once he presented himself with an already established council to instill this vision in his people, the 'means' of doing so was secondary!? And the most of German populus lined up.....
Right place, right time? or brilliant opportunist?
sorry folks.......just thinking outloud!
On a side note, I had recently visited the Tolerance Museum in Los Angeles California that dealt poignantly with the Holocaust. I recommend this to anyone interested in the social evolution of this world and it's thorn of hate and racism. Puts one into a very sobering state of mind.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait........hang on here...... Now Im starting to think????....(which is what these boards tend to make us do....). Was Hitler ACTUALLY a brilliant orator? An exceptional motivational speaker? A genius social coordinator? OR???.... was he just a megalomaniac extremist who happened to be at the right place at the right time?
Hmmmmm....
His previous life's actions would tell that he really didn't have a nack for conforming under any other lead than his own. Nor a nack for impeccable timing or clever planning? "The Beer Hall Putch" - what put him in prison seemed a very poorly executed project, that only continued to spiral wildly to his eventual trial and conviction. A very extreme approach, fueled mainly with aggression and fear. Had he rec'd the proper sentence for this treason, he'd of been dead years before he took over German political power?! But instead he was allowed 5 years to gestate, scheme out his plans for mass propaganda, justify his twisted vision with falsey interpreted oppression, and continued to flesh out his project and militant entourage (illustrated in his Mein Kemf) with the fire of someone uncompromising, irrational, unacountable and unimpeded by any outside force. Germany was looking for strenght and leadership and perhaps to be a world contender already. But no one took to the podium with quite as much enthusiasm and passion for the common goal of a powerful country and vision of world peace for families and children!? Once he presented himself with an already established council to instill this vision in his people, the 'means' of doing so was secondary!? And the most of German populus lined up.....
Right place, right time? or brilliant opportunist?
sorry folks.......just thinking outloud!
On a side note, I had recently visited the Tolerance Museum in Los Angeles California that dealt poignantly with the Holocaust. I recommend this to anyone interested in the social evolution of this world and it's thorn of hate and racism. Puts one into a very sobering state of mind.
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 30 2007, 05:53 PM) [snapback]1606342[/snapback]
This is a judgement, there are some who say that making prejudgments is "the beginning of a slippery slope".
It is not a pre-judgment to say the Nazis were bad. It is not a pre-judgment to say Hitler was bad. I stand by by my refusal to reconsider the subject and my conviction that defending Hitler in any way is a bad thing. I'm not saying you have to believe such, but I see no other end to trivializing (at best) or excusing (at worst) genocide from the beginning of defending Hitler.
Why did you say this to me?....i....i am actually offended by this, i hope that wasnt your intention. You do not know me, my age, or the experiences i have encountered in my life. Prejudge this as you wish.
I didn't. I was referring to the OP who clearly stated he was in school.
Again as i asked about your glamorising implication, i do not recall condoning genocide or Hitlers actions and i shall continue to research whatever i will and can find consistant and validated evidence for on any subject i am free to choose.
Umm, go ahead. I can't stop anyone for doing much -- even my dog still takes an occasional pee on the floor -- and I wouldn't stop people from researching anything.
I also would like to say that i am actually finding your unfounded implicative accusations that i might be "trying to condone genocide" or "try to glamorise it" quite offensive and would appreciate it if you did not attatch false motives to my intentions.
I'm quite old enough and quite literate enough to make my own charges. If I had thought you were actually doing these things I probably would have said "Hey you Neo-Nazi scumbag, Hitler sux and you do, too." You will notice the lack of such explicit insults or accusations in my posts. Although I do appreciate the irony of you actually doing what you impute to me.
--Jaylemurph
It is not a pre-judgment to say the Nazis were bad. It is not a pre-judgment to say Hitler was bad. I stand by by my refusal to reconsider the subject and my conviction that defending Hitler in any way is a bad thing. I'm not saying you have to believe such, but I see no other end to trivializing (at best) or excusing (at worst) genocide from the beginning of defending Hitler.
Why did you say this to me?....i....i am actually offended by this, i hope that wasnt your intention. You do not know me, my age, or the experiences i have encountered in my life. Prejudge this as you wish.
I didn't. I was referring to the OP who clearly stated he was in school.
Again as i asked about your glamorising implication, i do not recall condoning genocide or Hitlers actions and i shall continue to research whatever i will and can find consistant and validated evidence for on any subject i am free to choose.
Umm, go ahead. I can't stop anyone for doing much -- even my dog still takes an occasional pee on the floor -- and I wouldn't stop people from researching anything.
I also would like to say that i am actually finding your unfounded implicative accusations that i might be "trying to condone genocide" or "try to glamorise it" quite offensive and would appreciate it if you did not attatch false motives to my intentions.
I'm quite old enough and quite literate enough to make my own charges. If I had thought you were actually doing these things I probably would have said "Hey you Neo-Nazi scumbag, Hitler sux and you do, too." You will notice the lack of such explicit insults or accusations in my posts. Although I do appreciate the irony of you actually doing what you impute to me.
--Jaylemurph
sigh, ok
QUOTE(Wallfly @ Mar 30 2007, 06:07 PM) [snapback]1606365[/snapback]
Energy; enthusiasm; optimism; rightiousness; uncompromissed passions; uniting a nation behind a cause; strength as a leader; outspokeness in his values..... none of this made him a worthwhile orator? Ok.... However <i>His ability to sense an opportunity and exploit the weekness in a nation to bend to his own vision</i> set him ........ *****trails off in thought.........****
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait........hang on here...... Now Im starting to think????....(which is what these boards tend to make us do....). Was Hitler ACTUALLY a brilliant orator? An exceptional motivational speaker? A genius social coordinator? OR???.... was he just a megalomaniac extremist who happened to be at the right place at the right time?
Hmmmmm....
His previous life's actions would tell that he really didn't have a nack for conforming under any other lead than his own. Nor a nack for impeccable timing or clever planning? "The Beer Hall Putch" - what put him in prison seemed a very poorly executed project, that only continued to spiral wildly to his eventual trial and conviction. A very extreme approach, fueled mainly with aggression and fear. Had he rec'd the proper sentence for this treason, he'd of been dead years before he took over German political power?! But instead he was allowed 5 years to gestate, scheme out his plans for mass propaganda, justify his twisted vision with falsey interpreted oppression, and continued to flesh out his project and militant entourage (illustrated in his Mein Kemf) with the fire of someone uncompromising, irrational, unacountable and unimpeded by any outside force. Germany was looking for strenght and leadership and perhaps to be a world contender already. But no one took to the podium with quite as much enthusiasm and passion for the common goal of a powerful country and vision of world peace for families and children!? Once he presented himself with an already established council to instill this vision in his people, the 'means' of doing so was secondary!? And the most of German populus lined up.....
Right place, right time? or brilliant opportunist?
sorry folks.......just thinking outloud!
On a side note, I had recently visited the Tolerance Museum in Los Angeles California that dealt poignantly with the Holocaust. I recommend this to anyone interested in the social evolution of this world and it's thorn of hate and racism. Puts one into a very sobering state of mind.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait........hang on here...... Now Im starting to think????....(which is what these boards tend to make us do....). Was Hitler ACTUALLY a brilliant orator? An exceptional motivational speaker? A genius social coordinator? OR???.... was he just a megalomaniac extremist who happened to be at the right place at the right time?
Hmmmmm....
His previous life's actions would tell that he really didn't have a nack for conforming under any other lead than his own. Nor a nack for impeccable timing or clever planning? "The Beer Hall Putch" - what put him in prison seemed a very poorly executed project, that only continued to spiral wildly to his eventual trial and conviction. A very extreme approach, fueled mainly with aggression and fear. Had he rec'd the proper sentence for this treason, he'd of been dead years before he took over German political power?! But instead he was allowed 5 years to gestate, scheme out his plans for mass propaganda, justify his twisted vision with falsey interpreted oppression, and continued to flesh out his project and militant entourage (illustrated in his Mein Kemf) with the fire of someone uncompromising, irrational, unacountable and unimpeded by any outside force. Germany was looking for strenght and leadership and perhaps to be a world contender already. But no one took to the podium with quite as much enthusiasm and passion for the common goal of a powerful country and vision of world peace for families and children!? Once he presented himself with an already established council to instill this vision in his people, the 'means' of doing so was secondary!? And the most of German populus lined up.....
Right place, right time? or brilliant opportunist?
sorry folks.......just thinking outloud!
On a side note, I had recently visited the Tolerance Museum in Los Angeles California that dealt poignantly with the Holocaust. I recommend this to anyone interested in the social evolution of this world and it's thorn of hate and racism. Puts one into a very sobering state of mind.
yup, he was one messed up cookie
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 29 2007, 04:45 PM) [snapback]1604801[/snapback]
hmmm, does anyone here wonder/ care to explore/ know any of the details of what actually inspired and influenced Hitler's ideas for the holocaust and super race? Its quite interesting.
Regards
nn23
Regards
nn23
hmm, I still find myself coming back to the same question
The winners of war always write the history and they always bias it tremendously. There was no such thing as a holocaust and millions of Jews were never killed and it is a lie created to deflect attention away from the fact that they took over Israel by means of murdering innocent people. Why else are there laws protecting the holocaust from even being questioned? Why is it the ONLY historical event which is literally illegal to even question? All throughout history it has been clearly shown that only lies need to be protected. Do your own research and never take your information on a spoon from someone elses hand.
QUOTE(Luminary @ Mar 30 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]1606766[/snapback]
The winners of war always write the history and they always bias it tremendously. There was no such thing as a holocaust and millions of Jews were never killed and it is a lie created to deflect attention away from the fact that they took over Israel by means of murdering innocent people. Why else are there laws protecting the holocaust from even being questioned? Why is it the ONLY historical event which is literally illegal to even question? All throughout history it has been clearly shown that only lies need to be protected. Do your own research and never take your information on a spoon from someone elses hand.
To say this, you need to not only ignore obvious facts and well-regarded historical evidence but also just be... heartless. What about all the other Slavs, Gypsies, prisoners, conscientious objectors, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, Jehovah's Witnesses and black people? Did they not die or was that a lie, too?
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 31 2007, 02:56 AM) [snapback]1606958[/snapback]
To say this, you need to not only ignore obvious facts and well-regarded historical evidence but also just be... heartless. What about all the other Slavs, Gypsies, prisoners, conscientious objectors, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, Jehovah's Witnesses and black people? Did they not die or was that a lie, too?
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
I do not think that the state ought to have the right to determine historical truth and to punish people who deviate from that truth. I'm not willing to give the state that right [...]. If you believe in freedom of speech you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Göbbels was in favour of freedom of speech for views he liked.. so was Stalin. [...] If you are in favour of freedom of speech, that means you are in favour of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise - otherwise you're not in favour of freedom of speech.
- Noam Chomsky
So basically what I'm saying is your not going to persuade him to think differently by calling him names. I personally think it happened and it wasn't a good thing, but to be jailed if you even question whether it happened or not is scary. I actually think we fought a whole war against people that did that type of stuff...what were they called? Oh right, Nazi's.
QUOTE(Michaelbuble @ Mar 31 2007, 02:47 AM) [snapback]1607166[/snapback]
I do not think that the state ought to have the right to determine historical truth and to punish people who deviate from that truth. I'm not willing to give the state that right [...]. If you believe in freedom of speech you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Göbbels was in favour of freedom of speech for views he liked.. so was Stalin. [...] If you are in favour of freedom of speech, that means you are in favour of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise - otherwise you're not in favour of freedom of speech.
- Noam Chomsky
So basically what I'm saying is your not going to persuade him to think differently by calling him names. I personally think it happened and it wasn't a good thing, but to be jailed if you even question whether it happened or not is scary. I actually think we fought a whole war against people that did that type of stuff...what were they called? Oh right, Nazi's.
- Noam Chomsky
So basically what I'm saying is your not going to persuade him to think differently by calling him names. I personally think it happened and it wasn't a good thing, but to be jailed if you even question whether it happened or not is scary. I actually think we fought a whole war against people that did that type of stuff...what were they called? Oh right, Nazi's.
I concede the point, but I don't think Holocaust deniers ought /not/ to get flak for their beliefs. It's not like they're denying something debatable ("which is better, sunshine or rainbows?") or harmless ("which is fuzzier, a kitten or a puppy?").
I can't find any reason to deny the Holocaust that doesn't boil down to racism, and I don't think that needs to go unchallenged.
--Jaylemurph
I heard on tv Hitler got the blue eyes blond hair thing from Madame Blavatsky.
QUOTE(jaylemurph @ Mar 31 2007, 04:44 PM) [snapback]1607544[/snapback]
I concede the point, but I don't think Holocaust deniers ought /not/ to get flak for their beliefs. It's not like they're denying something debatable ("which is better, sunshine or rainbows?") or harmless ("which is fuzzier, a kitten or a puppy?").
I can't find any reason to deny the Holocaust that doesn't boil down to racism, and I don't think that needs to go unchallenged.
--Jaylemurph
I can't find any reason to deny the Holocaust that doesn't boil down to racism, and I don't think that needs to go unchallenged.
--Jaylemurph
If you're so certain it happened, then why do you care if other people believe it did or not? You can tell someone you think they are wrong if they deny it, but when you start jailing people for saying it we might as well have lost the war.
Really, the only difference would be instead of being told by the far right what we can/cannot say we are being told by the far left what we can/cannot say.
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