Okay, now I know several of you have asked that we members all restrain from discussing religious beliefs (and issues related to such) as not to motivate each other into beginning violent arguments. I don't know how sensitive people will be about this topic, and if it will lead to discussing the "laws" of faith to such a point that it will become offensive, and I will, in that case, do my best to be cautious and considerate on everyone's behalf. So here it goes:

I'm sure the majority of you have at least a slight familiarity with the children's novel series "Harry Potter" since it has become a very successful seller over only a year's time. Since millions upon millions of copies have been sold throughout the globe, it makes me wonder if perhaps that is why such negative attention has also been drawn toward these books by different faiths (apparently, and mainly by the faith of Christianity). The books have been banned from many Catholic schools accross the continent because some believe that they portray obvious symbols of evil and Satan. I guess that is the result of writing a series which tells the story of a boy who became a famous wizard after surviving an unbreakable curse. ;D

But I had to see this for myself, so I borrowed a copy of the first book in the collection from a friend of my mother's, and read it over a course of about four days. I was amazed to admit that even I could call this children's novel a page turner!

Not long after, a friend of mine referred me to an article she had read reviewing the "bad" contents of the book, it's characters, depictions, and plot, and what influence they had set for young readers (and this had concerned many parents as well) about drugs, alchohol and Satan. :si

To follow LB's request, here's a bit about the content of the article: It discusses the contact of the supernatural between our world and the "fantasy world" (in the book), lists hilights in the book which are connected with the content of drugs and alchohol, lists colors which are used in the book--colors apparently favored by Satan (how they figured out the devil's favorite colors sure beats the hell out of me :-/) and I also don't believe you could go about writing a book without using a range of colors while describing something or someone, etc. Still, some of these theories are really very absurd in my opinion, and some make very good points, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. It's a pretty long article, so you might want to skip some less interesting things, and just bear with me here:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1397.cfm

Sorry if this is a boring topic, but it's been on my mind for a while, and I thought I'd get the best responses here in the forum, even though this does discuss faith. I really hope nobody will feel offended or ask me to close the discussion.  :-/

If anyone is confused, and would like some reference to my question: Do you think the author of the novels has indeed set bad influence on her readers, and if it's contents are in fact involved with the devil (maybe to such a point that it makes parents feel threatened), or if this is all just pure coinsidence, and a way to draw negative attention toward a popular series (etc.)? Or whatever your opinion may be about the book review according to the article.

I have never read any Harry Potter books, nor have I seen the movie. But I do understand that there is magic and other facets of the story that would be contrary to the teachings of many religious beliefs.

Harry Potter is just a story, and a fantasy story at that. Anybody that complains about it being satanic just wants something to complain about, and I feel the only reason why it has gotten this much publicity from religious organizations is because of it's success.

Children understand that this is a story based on fantasy, and in my humble opinion, I don't think it's a bad influence. But again, I'm not familiar with Harry Potter personally, but I have read many fantasy stories as a child and I'm sure that if those stories had the success of Harry Potter, that they would also be scrutinized by religion.

            I think about it alot like Homer said.  In fact,  I bought a game for my daughter,  called 'Fantasy Forest',  and as soon as my (very religious) neighbors heard about it,  they told my child not to play it,  they compared it to 'Dungeons and Dragons',  and ruined it for her after that.  (she has always believed what I tell her,  so she just doesn't mention things like that around them anymore.  But it still was not right to attack something they didn't even know about!!  Some people see things that aren't really there!  That's how conspiracy theories get started!  and good ghost stories!  ;)

[blue]Well, Dakoda, I have read the first three books in the Harry Potter series and found them to be not only well-written and a gripping read, but they were entertaining and funny.

Yes, they do involve aspect of sorcery and wizzardry and such things as ogres and the like... but they also preach an underlying message of 'be loyal to your friends, do what's right, stand up to evil, work hard'... all of which are good principles to be infusing children's minds with.

Anyway, I don't know why Harry Potter has been subjected to this new 'anti-religious' wave of criticism. Look at 'The Lord Of The Rings' for example: here we also have wizzardry, demons, devils, witches, orcs, ogres, trolls, extreme violence and mammoth evil which the heroes have to confront. I've never heard anyone say this trilogy is unsuitable for kids.

Also, the Bible has more instances of evil in it than any other. The hero of the New Testament gets beaten, whipped, slashed and mounted on a cross... and we have visitations by devils etc...
[/blue]

QUOTE

Also, the Bible has more instances of evil in it than any other.

You are right LB, but also has many instances of what most people would class as 'magic'.

Moses and the nile turning red, the manna from heaven,if you go looking you'll find loads within it's pages. ;D

As for 'HP' bieng 'satanic' I'm afraid that this seems to be a case of a small minority with too much time on their hands<see the thread in Sceptics corner about evil symbols>
To quote LB if I may:

QUOTE

but they also preach an underlying message of 'be loyal to your friends, do what's right, stand up to evil, work hard'

Seems a very good way to bring up a child. I know I am! ;D

and yeswhen she iss older,and she can read and appreciate books, I will let her read said'HP' books and Tolkien etc.
never hurt me

To say that a well written children's book (never read it, seen the movie) is Satanic.. That is very stupid and ignorant. There a lot's of religions that don't have any problems with those books but it are (as always) some small factions that say those things and mess it all up for the majority.

Odin S.

Harry Potter Satanic? Nope, but from what i've heard the books have plagurised various sources - especially early Dungeons and Dragons Scenarios.

And no, Roleplaying isn't Satanic either.  :D

There has been a lot of other stuff written on this topic of H.P. being satanic (which is a load of cobblers).  It has been going on in a number of countries but the example I am going to site came from America, people living in the bible belt have been burning the Harry Potter books as belonging to the Devil.  

The main cause of this behaviour is because it is set in the real world, IE: - Earth, and not some other planet such as Discworld or The Wheel of Time.  and because there is magic in it, that everyday normal looking humans can do.

The people have also been banning the books from being sold in the shops and if they are seen then they are destroyed immediately.

If you ask me, this sort of behaviour is stupid, I mean it is just a childrens story book, It's like people burning Hansel and Gretel books just because it has a witch in it, that wants to eat someone.

witches.... wanting to eat people?? Nah far too chewy  ;D



As for Roleplaying.......I love it.

Hmmmm... good Christians burning books...


...Whoever burns books burns people...  :s3

QUOTE

[blue]Also, the Bible has more instances of evil in it than any other. [/blue]

I cannot agree more with your statement LB, which is why that fact makes some of those Christian sects seem so hypocritical.  ::)

Dakoda, I agree that some christian sects(all of them, as far as I'm concerned) seem so hyprocritical, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible having instances of evil. What that means is that people are evil, and that the evil is exposed in the Bible.

OK I have no idea where to start here......but this message not only offended all those religious people out there, it was also very hypocritical. Why are you suddenly disapproving of this?I don't want to start arguments. But I was just a little upset with some oppinions. No need to get angry...I was mearly trying to state that christians may have beliefs and so may other religions such as jews, muslims ect... But Dakoda said and I quote " which is why that fact makes some of those Christian sects seem so which is why that fact makes some of those Christian  seem so hypocritical. " Well.... I think you are being a tad bit hypocritical. You should look in to that more, I will agree the idea is a little insane but why not give it try to look at the believer's point on view?

Very interesting topic though I must say!! :s1

Hello Garisma,

Happy to see that this thread interests you. So, you must have had a look at the article I included in my first post--what do you think? I'm assuming that the members share a related opinion about that article, so could you please make an indication of where I am being hypocritical in this discussion, so that I may have a more distinct sense of what you mean? I can't provide you with a response to your opinion until you clarify it a little more for me.

I'd also be glad to hear your opinions about the article. :)

Welcome to the forum!  :st

Dakoda,
I noticed that you did not really understand what I meant when I said that you were "ALL" being hypocritical. I mean that you all suddenly shut down the topic without any proof of this all being a lie. I really didn't want to insult you in any way, but I feel that your post was a bit offending to those of a strong religion. In my opinion I don't believe that this series of child books would at all be bad for those reading it. But maybe, we should drop this and agree that others may have their different oppinions on this...I'm sure we wouldn't want to start a fight? Am I right? :-/

I am glad to become a part of this forum, Thank You for welcoming me. :s03

Hi Garisma, welcome to the forum.

You stated: "I mean that you all suddenly shut down the topic without any proof of this all being a lie."  For one thing, nobody shut down this topic, and another thing is nobody is looking for proof of a lie.

You stated: "In my opinion I don't believe that this series of child books would at all be bad for those reading it."  I'm glad you stated your opinion, because that's what we do here. This is a discussion forum, and this topic was merely to discuss our opinions on the subject matter.

You stated: "But maybe, we should drop this and agree that others may have their different oppinions on this..."  You seem to be missing the point of this discussion, and for that matter this forum as well. We all know that people may have different opinions about this, as people have different opinions of just about everything. Don't be offended by the rest of us having a mature discussion about OUR opinions.

Hey Garisma,

In my initial post, I stated "I don't know how sensitive people will be about this topic, and if it will lead to discussing the "laws" of faith to such a point that it will become offensive, and I will, in that case, do my best to be cautious and considerate on everyone's behalf."  

As Homer said, we are all merely discussing our opinions--which is is the general function of a discussion group. Perhaps I was even being generous in regards to my statement (above).

QUOTE

Dakoda, I noticed that you did not really understand what I meant when I said that you were "ALL" being hypocritical.

I scanned your initial post in this thread, and found that nowhere in the contents of that post did you mention that we were "'ALL' being hypocritical."

QUOTE

why not give it try to look at the believer's point on view?

This may not always be the case for everybody, but I think that's what makes me a skeptic in certain issues--the believer's perspective just seems illogical at a closer glimpse.

[blue]I want to ask a question:

Why is it that people of established so-called orthodox faiths get really annoyed and aggressive whenever their religion is questioned or put down but they then think it is fine to debunk everyone else's beliefs?

I was brought up a Catholic and when I reached a certain level of intelligence, I backed away from it and explored a variety of other faiths, none of which really came close to making much sense to me (apart from one or two and then only in part).

Finally I came to base my beliefs on my own personal experiences, not on those prescribed by a book, and not on those formed on other people's experiences. And I am happy now with my own individual beliefs.

The point being, whenever someone disagrees with my own beliefs, I don't get irate or back away in fear of causing some religious affrontery. I discuss and try to explain.

Getting upset/angry/aggressive whenever your belief/faith is questioned seems to me a rather juvenile response.
[/blue]

QUOTE

Why is it that people of established so-called orthodox faiths get really annoyed and aggressive whenever their religion is questioned or put down but they then think it is fine to debunk everyone else's beliefs?

LB I agree with the question.

Just to put my own personal view I was brought up in a non relgious family and decided to give the more 'orthadox religions' a try.
But by the time i was 13 i had decided that all the these 'accepted' religions were not what I wanted.
That's when I found paganism, and wicca.
Wicca can be adapted to what u need out of life and it's in that freedon that I can <trynot> to take offense of 'accepted religions' who as LB said try to debunk others beliefs.
<well it works most of the time> :s6

[blue]I don't know much about wicca or paganism per se, but I think we are all free to choose. I'm open to all aspects of faith because I believe we really don't know all the answers yet. Probably far from it.

Maybe you could give me a link to a website which would explain your faith then CW. :s03

I always believe that if you are not hurting someone or something else, then you should be free to do what you like.
[/blue]

I am catholic, I was raised that way. But we mostly go only twice a year to church, maybe three times. I never really missed the religios stuff, but I missed the culture of it. If you know what I mean. The buildings and just the whole fests. I am not a religieus person at all. But I have my own ideas of how everything is and most of the time I need scientific evidence for it, or I base my beliefs on science.

Odin S. :s9

I'd just like to add that i too fully agree with LB's post above. I was brought up nominally C of E, but religion has never been a big part of my life and i don't feel it has to be.  In my experience i've found that many (i by no means here mean all) highly religious people use their religion as a crutch and don't look to question anything that their religion tells them. They are quick to condem things that they are told to (or think they should) without looking into the subject in an open minded way. Examples of this would be literature, music and yes roleplaying.
I would like to stress again that i mean in no way to say that all religious people are narrowminded, but there is, i believe, a correlation - in some.  An unwillingness to have their beliefs questioned prehaps or a blind faith which prevents some from looking too hard?

I have already mentioned my dislike for organised religion so i won't go through it again - all people need to do as far as i'm concerned is to treat each other as they themselves would like to be treated. That is my guide for life and looking around the world i wish it was a guide for others too.

To the members whom have answered my last post. I am very sorry that you feel I have over reacted in such a manner. I apologize and I now realize that most people here are allowed to give their oppinion no matter how many people they offend. I am truly and deeply sorry. I ask nothing but forgivness and hope that I offended no one.

[blue]Awww, bless. Cummere you big lump...[/blue] :s03

:st Garisma as has been said b4 EVERYONE is welcome to xpress thier own opinions.
So BIG HUGS and don't worry about it  ::)

Aww...thanks guys for being so forgiving.  :'( I love you guys! :'(

Don't worry about it, Garisma.  :st

I'm sorry, myself, if I made you feel unwelcome by acting so moody and aggressive. But I'm not always like that.  ;)

By the way, Garisma, I think I'll have to post this publically since I don't know if you've noticed that I sent you an instant message? Scroll up to the top of the screen and look in the right corner to open it (some people don't notice it, I think)... and if you already knew that, then I'll feel pretty stupid...  :-[

It's ok Dakoda. Thank you for pointing out the im thing. I had no idea it was even possible to send im's to people :sr

I don't think is a case of giving our opinions not caring who we offend, because opinions are just that - opinions. I think it's pretty difficult to actually offend members on this forum (though some people have managed to do it - but you do have to going some) but you may spark a lively debate though!

Welcome Garisma.

:o :o :s2 :s2 :s2

Yeah I agree P.S.

BTW.
         
                  WELL DONE FORUM LEGEND!!!

         

aww shucks *bows*

ALRIGHT PURPLE STUART!!     THE NEW FORUM LEGEND :)

It's about time someone else made it, because it's lonely at the top ;D

:seGIANT Congrats PS!!!:se

                                                             :s06

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is messed up.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

#3572,
Are you through venting now ???  This was primarily a discussion on why Harry Potter was shunned by religious organizations. Sure we got a little off the topic, as we usually do, by briefly discussing our beliefs in religion in general terms.

I find your posts rather offensive due to the fact you are too profane and criticize too much that which you don't believe in. Although I have no authority here I request you curb that attitude of yours and request other members not to reply to your posts as they are too religiously controversial  for this forum.

Not to worry Homer, its taken care of. Although I am not a big fan of censorship, what was posted was  offensive, vulgar and highly inflammatory. Neither was it pertainent to the subject of this thread. I have copied the original text from the messages, which will be passed on to Gareth for him to read and determine if any other action should be taken.

Magikman  :s8

:s6 hmmmm I'm glad someone else noticed it too I read the original rant.
*shakes head* not pretty, so I decided not post a reply back........a case of once bitten twice shy ;D

Thanks Magik, although I don't like censorship either, we don't need that kind of garbage polluting this great forum.

Hey, ya'll... I always miss the really juicy posts. They get deleted before I get to them...ah well...just as well because I'd probably scorch the poster (sans vulgarity, thought).

I think the that if people who adhere to any organized religion actually understood their religion and the reasons behind the beliefs therein, they could and would be more tolerant of the beliefs of others.

Example: the reason that Christians are against magic...submitting to the will of God is paramount in the Christian religion. Using magic is a manifestation of self-will. One cannot submit to the will of God and at the same time go about running one's life using magic or really any other way that brings about results of one's own personal desires. That's not to say that you can't make decisions in your life, but that they are based on the principles of your religion.
P.S. submitting to the will of God does not mean becoming slavelike. It is letting God's will work through you in your everyday life.

Eek! I wasn't going to preach...so...I'll end this by saying this is my opinion on the subject. I think the HP books and movie are fun and interesting. And as I like to say: evil is in the eye of the beholder.   :sr

Dalia (been there, done that, went a different path)  :sj

QUOTE

I think the that if people who adhere to any organized religion actually understood their religion and the reasons behind the beliefs therein, they could and would be more tolerant of the beliefs of others.

Hear, hear.

::) to above post..........seconded P.S

                               and

QUOTE

(been there, done that, went a different path)

yeap Dalia  couldn't agree more.

I have no religious belief- end of story. Harry Potter is a story- end of story

QUOTE

And as I like to say: evil is in the eye of the beholder.   :sr

Very well said dalia! ;)

#3572 is an idiot. I'm a Catholic, myself, but a very flexible one. I don't go to church, don't memorize songs, donate money, and I don't say grace before meals--but I will say an occasional prayer or two if something has left me distressed, and God has never failed to come to my aid (not literally, of course). There is nothing unusual in seeking comfort. Besides, you can never be too Christian, anyway. ::)

As for Buddhists, Muslims, Shintoists (etc.)--I certainly don't befool myself into believing in all that "mumbo jumbo" that Christian sects like to hatch for their believers; that someone of a non-Christian related faith is bound to burn in hell for eternity. This is a quick way of earning dirty money--frightening people into making large donations, not for the benefit of their churches (as they are led to believe), but for benefit of their preists and their own unnecessary purchases.

You cannot call someone a sinner if their faith originates from their ancient mother country and they wish to keep the ball rolling. You cannot call someone a sinner if their anscestors had never heard of Christ, before being threatened into conversion. You cannot call someone a sinner if you, yourself have tortured them into believing evil morals that you have created to frighten them with. You cannot call someone a sinner if they choose to be yet the next generation in their family of a different religious descent. And you cannot call someone a sinner if they refer to God by a different name. The people who conduct in these evil balmes are the real sinners (though I don't have the jurisdiction of saying so, myself), and we will not always be willing to forgive them, but God will.

You may nag your friend into buying the blue shirt, and not the yellow one, but you cannot nag them into converting to a different faith. If you are proud and satisfied with your own beliefs, then so be it, but don't go bothering someone else if you are not proud and satisfied with theirs. You can't go about, pointing the benefits of a cult/sect/religion on your fingers to a friend, like an insurance broker. Be grateful for what you have and let them be grateful for what they have. And if they offend you, tell them to shut it.  

Judge not, lest ye be judged is what those sects will teach their followers, before going off and doing so themselves by condemning all other faiths and marking them down as "unworthy" of God's Great Kingdom. God forgives all of His children, and no one speaks on His behalf when they judge you by anything other than the content of your character. The bare bone of religion is worship, and just like telling English from Spanish, a word, or phrase may sound different appart from another, but the translation will always be the same, just as some may call Him "Allah," and some may call Him "Lord," but he is still the same God, and we are all joined together under His power. I don't think he would mind what you call Him, just as I wouldn't mind if you called me Dakoda or Karen. :)

*Sigh* I got a bit carried away for a while... but I had to make my point! I was hoping this thread wouldn't lead to another offensive religious argument, but I guess that's something we cannot always help witnessing. :-/

This is once again, just my entitled oppinion, and I am not inviting anyone to argue as oppose to what I've written, nor accusing anyone here of anything which is I mentioned in my post to be looked upon badly. I just had to make this clear to everyone and to myself. :)

[blue]All religions are but stepping stones back to God. - Pawnee[/blue]

:su

"I can not concieve a God who rewards and punishes hi creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious of ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls." - From the man himself Albert Einstein


  "God favours no group. Only religions do that." - Bumper sticker *lol*


   
                                 X

Arrgghh, really don't want to get into that whole 'religion'   :sh debate....always gets ugly, soo to attempt to bring this debate back on track......

I guess the Pope himself has a slightly different view on Harry Potter - found this article in the Fortean Times:

A Saint of Magic:

"The Pope is planning on making Saint Don Bosco, a 19th century Italian priest with a passion for magic, as the patron saint of conjurers, magicians and wizards.  The idea was suggested by Father Silvio Mantelli, a bespectled priest and magician who uses the stage name Mago Sales and is a big Harry Potter fan.  He likes to celebrate mass wearing a clown's red plastic nose."

 

Fortean Times, Aug 2002/ Sunday Times, Mar 2002

Patron of magicians and wizards?! Sounds like a nice way for the church to recognize them!  :D

Crow,

That's an interesting bit of news.

It sounds like the Pope is sanctioning more than the slight-of-hand magic that performers do on stage.  But, I notice there is no mention of the feminine gender unless one considers Magician as rather non-specific gender-wise.

Any idea how reliable the article is?

Dalia  :st

I've come across this "Is Harry Potter evil?" business in another group.  
  I've have yet to read any of the books(though I'd like to) or see the movie(another one I want to see) so I don't know a lot about it. I DON'T consider the books/movie to be "bad," one could make similar claims to just about anything.   I'm not going to add much, 'looks like a lot has already been said on the subject.
 I would like to quote a line from another famous movie though--"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view."
I find that to, well, have a lot of truth in it. A song can be the worst ever to one person and the best thing since sliced bread to another one.
 It is an interesting idea to bring these things up. Myself, I just see entertainment and I'm thankful that there are people in this world like HP's author/creator, George Lucas(I'm partial to him-I belong to a Star Wars costuming fan club known as the 501st Legion of Stormtroopers. Yes, I have Stormtrooper "armor"). I certainly haven't "gone crazy" from reading about Jedi Knights and the Force. TO each his own I guess. We're all entitled to our own opinions.
 Okay, I'll shut up now.  I've rambled on long enough! Brian (TK1997 in the 501st)

QUOTE

"You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view."

Brian,
Excellent quote. Spoken like a true Star Wars fan. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi speaking to Luke Skywalker on the planet Dagobah in Return of the Jedi.

By the way, welcome to the forum :st

Star Wars is cool 8)