When you look at Chrsitianity as a WHOLE...it includes all faiths like ...

Major Denominational Families of Christianity

(This table does not include all Christians. These numbers are estimates, and are here primarily to assist in ranking branches by size, not to provide a definitive count of membership.)
Branch Number of Adherents

Catholic 1,050,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000
Pentecostal 105,000,000
Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000
Anglican 73,000,000
Baptist 70,000,000
Methodist 70,000,000
Lutheran 64,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000
Adventist 12,000,000
Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000
Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000
New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000
Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000
Mennonite 1,250,000
Friends (Quakers) 300,000

Christianity REMAINS (due to the catholics) TOP of the worls of religion...

Major Branches of Major World Religions Ordered by Number of Adherents
The following table presents all the major branches (of major world religions) listed above in a single table, ordered by size. Remember that the meaning of a division between branches of a religion differs between religions, and between each branch. Also, remember that some of these estimates may be inaccurate. Be advised against reading too much meaning into this particular table.



Branch Religion Number of Adherents

Catholic Christianity 1,050,000,000
Sunni Islam 940,000,000
Vaishnavites Hinduism 580,000,000
Orthodox/Eastern Christian Christianity 240,000,000
Shaivites Hinduism 220,000,000
Conservative Protestant Christianity 200,000,000
Mahayana Buddhism 185,000,000
Liberal Protestant Christianity 150,000,000
Theravada Buddhism 124,000,000
Shiite Islam 120,000,000
African indigenous sects (AICs) Christianity 110,000,000
Pentecostal Christianity 105,000,000
Anglican Christianity 73,000,000
Sikhism Sikhism 23,000,000
neo-Hindus
and reform Hindus Hinduism 22,000,000
Lamaism
(Vajrayana/Tibetan, etc.) Buddhism 20,000,000
Jehovah's Witnesses Christianity 14,800,000
Latter Day Saints Christianity 12,500,000
Ahmadiyya Islam 10,000,000
Veerashaivas (Lingayats) Hinduism 10,000,000
Baha'i World Faith Baha'i Faiths 6,000,000
Conservative Judaism 4,500,000
Unaffiliated and Secular Judaism 4,500,000
Svetambara Jainism 4,000,000
Reform Judaism 3,750,000
Seicho-No-Ie New Japanese 3,200,000
Shinto all branches Shinto 3,000,000
Tenrikyo New Japanese 2,800,000
PL Kyodan New Japanese 2,600,000
Orthodox Judaism 2,000,000
New Thought
(Unity, Christian Science, etc.) Christianity 1,500,000
Sekai Kyuseikyo New Japanese 800,000
Sthanakavasis Jainism 750,000
Zenrinkai New Japanese 600,000
Druze Islam 450,000
Tensho Kotai Jingukyo New Japanese 400,000
Friends (Quakers) Christianity 300,000
Ennokyo New Japanese 300,000
Digambaras Jainism 155,000
Reconstructionist Judaism 150,000
Parsis Zoroastrianism 110,000
Gabars Zoroastrianism 20,000



Souurce - http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity

So I do know that chrsitianity as a WHOLE are followers of Jesus Christ........the have accepted Jesus and what Jesus has done for them.....growing up as a young catholic...taught me to be thankful for Jesus and what he has done................and i know protestant churches feel the same...

SO my question is...WHO needs to be saved.........again? and WHY do people need to be saved again...if they already have accpted jesus..just so happens they dont all call themselves - born again chrsitians
My mother is a born again chrsitian...she tells me that a lot of churches that belong to chrsitianity..actually DONT belong to chrsitianity (according to her chrsitian group leaders they don't) and in fact says..that these churches those that follow them...and not re-born again ....are doomed to hell!!!!!

I don't get it....and I am not being sarcastic neither...I really don't understand it at all. I believe if every last church within Chrsitianity, that has always accepted Chrsit..and follow him..then WHY must they be doomed?? and Why must there be a born again??

This is a serious question...something I do not believe, I have asked before, if I have, lol sorry I dont recall..but just wondered..........what the big difference is

Is it HOW you follow chrsit??... Do you have to announce you follow and accept him?? but if so............doesnt every chrsitian church within chrsitianity do this??


Anyone??

Thanks

PS - If Born again chrsitians DO believe that all churches within Chrsitianity are not doomed and are already saved...then please ignore this LOL

Chrsitianity = Followers Of Christ...correct??

Hi Mom! You raise a good point. How do we follow Christ? I like what Ghandi said about in that he spoke that he enjoyed the scriptural teachings of Christ, but did not see this in many of the people calling themselves christians. For me it is to follow the teachings. I would know of no other way one could.

Of course, if you follow Chrsit, regardless of what you call yourself, to me that counts...but I wondered what a born again would say about it....let's see *fingers crossed*

You are right on that. The problem is that so many denomination have many different ideas of what "born again" means. I apply this to the term "christian" as well. When asked if I am a Christian? I ask them to define what they mean by the term to begin with. Because I could not say yes to that in light of the dogmas and doctrines of the church's today.

Exclusiveness. One can find it everywhere, but what you seem to be talking about is more prevalent in Fundamental (theological term) and Evangelical Protestant churches. It comes down to differences in doctrine, often times rather silly. Roman Catholics venerate saints, Orthodox have a hierarchical ecclesiastical structure, Methodists only sprinkle water on babies, and the church down the street starts at 830 instead of 900. I encountered this attitude when I was an Evangelical (probably at one time or another possessed it) and feared it when I made the move to Orthodoxy. Some denomination or another thinks that it is the One True Church^TM and the only way to God is through it. It is quite sad.

to put it simple... Jesus defines it in all the gospels... to be born again is to accept Jesus as your savior... then be baptized...

the baptism represents dying in the flesh and rising again spiritual... just like Jesus... it's more ritualistic and symbolic than literal... but basically being born again is aceepting Jesus and following Him spiritually...

Hi BM,

I always got the impression this branch of Christanity had a specific insight related to the remark made by Jesus "Unless a person be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven". I suspect I may not have that quote exactly right so forgive me on that.

In any case, if you take that literly and out of context, then a judgement is required for a person to enter heaven. Heaven being a good place and evertwhere else, not so good. In my view the message of Jesus was about the unconditional love of God for everyone. Good conduct was encouraged so that the earthly experience and well being of a person could be attained.

If a judgement is required for God's love then it is not unconditional. There is the view God does loves everyone but will punish those who fail to follow the teachings of Jesus. You need to ask yourself if that conclusion makes sense to you. If it does then you will search for the correct formula to please God and be saved. However if we are all saved and loved unconditionaly, how could we encourage an orderly culture. Some were along the way, man made thoughts and rules of conduct have been associated with the words of Jesus. If Jesus was talking about heaven on earth with well being in mind, then the quote above would not be literly true for our soul's eventual destination, as most of us are led to understand. Our soul is eternal spirit as is God. It has no destination only various experiences it desires. I realize virtually every religion would say otherwise on that last part.

In any case, I hope these thoughts lead to the insight you are seeking.

John

Well, that right there doesn't make any sense to me, taking into account when Jesus was on the cross speaking to the thief.
Jesus spoke to the thief who was being crucified next to Him.
“Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 The thief wasn't baptized. The thief didn't even have a religion.

BM, I feel that the Catholics believe any other group of Christians are going to hell, is because of the huge uprising, and the split of the Catholic church. The other Christian religions then turn around and say the same if you're Catholic. It's an awful assumption, but it's one that's portrayed quite often. There's far too much anger and judgement in organized religion. I personally feel that (whether baptized or not) IF God existed, he's not going to care at which church you sat, he's only going to care what's in your heart. It's such a shame to see such blatant hypocricy among ALL religions, and not one in particular.

Doesn't make sense to me either.



A man I knew (if anyone remembers, he's the one who had an affair with his wife's sister and got her pregnant), was a born again Christian. He hated the Catholics so much... to some extent I think he hated them more than atheists. He tolerated atheists because they were just Christians who hadn't found Jesus yet... the Catholics were a lost cause.

Great question BM.

This has never really made sense to me either. The "rules" just don't fit every scenario as many of you have pointed out. I have heard many born again Christians say that you can accept Jesus right up to the last second before you die and you will be saved. To be born again in the spirit right at death, even though you may have lived your life like a jackass.

Something I have never understood is: Many people I know were baptised as infants. How is this being born again? Where's the choice to accept the symbolic ritual. I don't think little babies can comprehend the symbolism there.

Great point my dear!!.....I agree with you 100%. Infants have no idea what's going on, they just think they're being "born again" in the literal sense, not the figurative one. I also agree with the actual meaning of the phrase "born again". I feel that it's use in religion, is, as you stated, to be born again in spirit. I personally believe that the actual ritual of baptism, is to merely symbolically "wash away" their sins or former selves. Great points honey

Hi BM,

This is a very good question and although we think it might have a simple and clear answer, the truth is that any answer is in itself polemic. But I'll try to provide one anyway although many might not agree with what I have to say.

The 1st thing that needs to be addressed is the question of what a christian is.

A christian is not just someone who follows christ. Of the many thousands who followed Christ in his ministry, very few actually accepted him as anything more than a wise teacher (Rabbi). Others followed in the hopes that he would lead a revolution against the Roman occupation of Israel. All of them followed him for various personal reasons, from wanting to be cured to just simple curiosity.

A christian is a person who has accepted Jesus as their personal saviour. This means that the person recognizes that there is a seperation between them and God and they want to mend that rift. They realize that this seperation exists because they are sinners who through their own desires and actions bring about sin in their lives. Sin is essentially the desire to do something, irrespective of the consequences to ourselves and/or to others, whether these circumstances are forseen or unforseen is unimportant. The prime mover of sin then, is ego, or the self appeasement of our will.

When a person realizes that sin (through self appeasement of our ego) is in their life in such a way that there is absolutely no way that a person can free themselves of it, no matter how much they try (since it becomes part of their phsychological and character profile). Then they are finally ready to be confronted with the only way they can ever mend the rift that exists between themselves and God. Not through being a good person, (because none of us are good in Gods eyes) but by having faith that there is a person who through a great sacrifice has taken their sins upon himself and has taken the punishment that was to be ours because of that sin.

Thus we see that a christian is someone who has come to the conclusion that the only way that they can ever be pure in Gods eyes, is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for our sins. He is the one, who took our sins upon himself and in so doing, made us pure again through his blood, in the eyes of God. To be "born again" is to accept this sacrifice thus becoming as pure as new born infants to God.

What implications does this have on our lives?

A person who is "born again" does not control his ego anymore. Jesus sits in the center of our being, he is the ruler of our lives. Thus a "born again" christian does not allow self appeasement to be his goal in life, because Jesus has given him not only a new character but also a new set of goals in life. Thus one can identify a born again christian by his works, his attitudes and his spirit, because they are Jesus' works, attitudes and spirit.

This is what is meant by the phrase: "By their works they shall be known".

We have as you stated in your post,, thousands of denominations and and not all of them use the term "born again". Does this mean that only "born again" christians are saved?

No, because all christians whether they are called born again or not must go through the above process by concious choice. They must all ask at one time in their lives to become christians using the above process, otherwise they are not christians because they never accepted Jesus as ruler of their ego and never asked for forgiveness of their sins.

Even someone who has gone to church all their life, is baptized and has followed all the rites of christianity is not necessarily a christian because of the above. "Born again" christians are in all of the churches you posted and all the denominations too, even if they don't call themselves that. What is important is that they have gone through the process I described, not what church they belong to.

His love is unconditional, your salvation and mine on the other hand are conditional. Just because God loves us doesn't mean that the process of our salvation doesn't require sacrifice on our part. Giving up our ego is that sacrifice.

So all Christians who have gone through the process described here are born again, because through an acceptance of Christ as their personal saviour they have been reborn.

Why do we bother with the born again bit then? If all Christians are born again simply by being Christians?

Yes, all christians who have actually gone through the process can be called "born again" and "christians" too. Someone who has not gone through the process cannot even be called a christian.

Why do we bother nowadays with this bit is to show the difference. Christianity today is almost seen as banal. People think they've got it down pat and think that it has to do with going to church and going through specific rites, but these things are what kills christianity, not what brings it life as a living relationship with God.

Most of the people who are called christians don't have the level of personal commitment to go through the above process. And in truth I cannot call these people christians. Compare how christians were willing to die for what they believed in, in the 1st and 2nd century and how todays average christian would face such a situation.

I was going to post, but there really is nothing I could say, that would not be just rehashing what Jor-el said, so,
YEAH, WHAT JOR-EL SAID.

I am in agreement with Jor-el on all points. There is a huge difference between saying you follow Christ and receiving new life.

Sorry, I just got off work, I'm really worn out and I didn't want to type all of this over again, so I quoted myself from true's thread about ex-christians and just brought it over here. Yes, it's lazy of me, but I would have said all the same things here, so you'll just have to forgive me.

Who came up with this idea?? I mean all those that belong to Christianity..ALL have already accepted to follow Jesus, hence their religion - christianity.......

SO you are saying ...they all must go through a process to be born again.....but WHY??

I mean (please don't be offended by this)...but someone obviously took it apon themselves to make this so..

Why couldn't these religious faiths within chrsitianity just be left alone?

It's fact that all catholics & protestant faiths all do follow chrsit..they belive if they follow chrsit, they are cert for heaven...so who's big idea was it to make them make another choice, which is pretty much the same as the one they 1st chose to begin with...to follow chrsit


Thus we see that a christian is someone who has come to the conclusion that the only way that they can ever be pure in Gods eyes, is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for our sins. He is the one, who took our sins upon himself and in so doing, made us pure again through his blood, in the eyes of God. To be "born again" is to accept this sacrifice thus becoming as pure as new born infants to God.

But see this is what is confusing me here................if you are born and baptized and go to chuch follow your bible, whether you be catholic or protestant...you are still someone that follows and has accepted chrsit...from the moment you began to understand religion

I dont think there should have been a NEW lable stuck on it..................Chrsitians are christ followers they are allready saved...................why bother being saved again??

Gee Jor I am sorry...I am just trying to understand this .......

Here is a question for you Jor...What or WHO needs to be saved??...

Are they - non chrsitians?? ie Jewish...muslims?? Satanics?? Pegans?? WHO?? this is something I would lie to hear...cuz its bugging me WHO needs a saving

I dont think all those that belong to chrsitianity and feel they are chrsitians..DONT need to be saved AGAIN

Jesus died for all sins??? or just the sins for those that hung around at the time when he was on earth?? OR just the sins of chrsitians...even though technically Jesus was king of the Jews..and JEWISH...so help me out her Jor-el please

And I am asking you seriously...help LOL cuz I am stuck on this one

thanking you in advance

Ohh btw..thank you for taking some time in explaining what a chrsitian is ect...you did a good job Jor...

we'll never forget this, but we will forgive you.







just this once, ok?

Christ died for the sins of all mankind, past, present and future. No one is held exept from that gift but all are still under his judgement. Know one knows how or when Judgement Day will come about or how we will be judged on that day. He may say, "Come all sinner and saint! All are welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven." Or he may judge with all the wraith and vengance of the Old Testament God. Who really knows until the end. Bottom line is that good people feel guilty Christian or not for commiting a crime or act of vileness. That guilt is what hangs men from the tree of sorrow and shame that can be described as purgatory. Christ's sacrafice was the way that man could cleanse himself from that guilt through confession and forgiveness. But that doesnot mean that one shall live a guilt free life if that person doesnt truely right the wrong he will still feel the guilt of what he has done. How can one ask forgivness if he himself cannot forgive? Through Christ is the way to salvation redemption and Heaven.

One thing I have seen with born agains is that they are Christians who were raised Christian but left the religion or put it on the back burner for some other ideal or lifestyle. Why they get so hyped up and act so blissfull is that they now understand what they have questioned for so many years. It is like they have had an itchy spot that they have scrached for ever and now its satisfied. Or that kid who never was able to beat a video game and after so long he finnaly does. its that kind of feeling. A feeling of joy and accomplishment through their faith.

I think it seems to be more the case that people call themselves Christians who have no idea what it is to be Christian... they didn't really become Christian again... they just weren't Christians in the first place. That's what I'm understanding. That they are Christian by name... not nature.

I know a fair number of people who go to church every Sunday, call themselves Christian, but never read a Bible and wouldn't have a clue if you asked them a question like some of the ones we ask on here. I wish I could herd them up, wire them to the board, force them to read these posts and say "look... this is why you're not a Christian... that's what a Christian is, that person there or this one here... not you who knows nothing about the faith you claim to be part of." But that would be kidnapping I suppose.

Can't chrsitians follow chrsit in their own way, what makes them feel more confortable??

Ie..accept chrsit how you see fit?? and NOT how someone tells you should?? you are your own boss?? no??

I believe we all go - no matter what or who. to say who does or doesn't is purely man made . why? Because god is either everything and has a purpose for it all or god is restricted by human frailties and emotions as humans are.

now. is your god a big god or a small god ? is your god so great that all get to go ? or so petty that only a certian few?

god relays through scripture that he is the author of evil and if scripture is true and god written and inspired then every act we think restricts people from 'heaven' is wrong.

or is it the scriptures are wrong? they do tend to contridict one another. and if they do why should any of it be believed. ? do not kill and do not steal ect .... are great morals to live by but all religions have and state that.

it comes down to Jesus then. a figure based on religions that came hundreds of years earlier.

boy won't those who think the only way to heaven is through jesus be surprised to be finding themselves there with a hindu neighbor.


the only people who need to be saved are those who think there way is the only way. God is sooo much more than one way. but we forgive you your restrictive belief that makes you feel better than or ahead of the rest of humanity that by the way God loves just the way they are.

Jesus, came up with the idea, no-one else. It was Jesus who said that we needed to rethink and reconsider our way of life and he is the one who used the metaphor of "being born again" to understand the concept. All christians from that time on were familiar with the concept and tried to invoke it in various rites and ceremonies, such as baptism. The people who we call christians today didn't have a name at that time, they were simply followers of christ. The word christian was actually perjoritive when it came into use, much the same as we call people "subversive" today. It was meant as an insult when applied at the time of its inception by those who didn't follow christianity.

When christianity became legal around 300 C.E. christians were suddenly confronted with a new political environment and perspectives started to change in regards to many of the truths held by christians until that time. The concept of being born again fell into disuse and neglect over time, until the end of the 19th century when these concepts started being used again by a generation of christians that wanted to go back to the way things were before, institutionalism took over so much of what christianity viewed as basic truth.

At the time when these changes occured, baptism, for example was practiced on infants. This is a corruption of Gods word because baptism can only be undertaken by someone who willingly expresses the desire to do so, because they have accepted Jesus as saviour. How can an infant decide for himself?

Many such institutionalized rites, have destroyed the real meaning of christianity and are in fact perversions of Gods word. These christians at the end of the 19th century felt the need to distance themselves from these rites so that their true meaning could be shown. It was not a decision based on sectarianism, but rather a desire to see Gods word being correctly practiced as was intended by the 1st christians. These christians today are called by a number of different names like baptists, evangelicals and pentecostals among many others.



Not they all, rather, we all, irrespective of denominational affiliation. There must be a 1st time when one does this by decision. The words must be spoken because it is by our words that we are forgiven or condmned. Naturally this must be done because of a desire to do so with utmost sincerity or it becomes just another rite.



Just because you understand something doesn't mean that you partake of it. One has to be a part of it with utmost sincerity and one still has to take the step of actually repenting before God himself and accepting that Jesus died for our sins. One has to relenquish control over our ego and give over control to christ. The thing is, you have to do it once and only once, but you have to take the step willingly when you do it. Call it a formality if you want, but I believe that if one never does it, ever, then one has never truly submitted to God, because God wants you to speak the words. They are the signature on the contract, if you will accept the figure of speech.



You see BM, most christians from just as many denominations, were born into christianity. They went through the rites, they have read the word of God yet they have not been changed by it. Christ has not changed them. For them christianity is a religion and not a true way of life. These people are christians in name only and as I said previously, 90% of christianity is made up of these individuals. I cannot really call them christians, but since the word has become indicitive of a religion, another word needs to be used to mark the difference between these people and what I think of as true christianity. The word is "born again", but this doesn't mean that "born again christians" have the monopoly on the way to salvation, as I said before, these "born again christians" are part of all churches and denominations and many don't even use the term when speaking of themselves.

After all it is God alone who knows our hearts and not other men, only he knows which of the many christians are true believers ans which are simply adhering to a format without life. Whether we call them born again or not isn't important, that they are saved by the grace of God is!



All of us need to be saved irrespective of religion or denomination, it is a process that starts on the day you repent and accept Jesus christ as saviour but it also doesn't stop there. It becomes a process of being molded into christs image, of learning to accept Jesus' leadership in our lives instead of our ego, that, for most people is not an instantaneous process, but one that can take an entire lifetime to achieve.

Yes, we are saved from that moment, but that after all is not the only purpose of our life is it? The real purpose can only start from there, which is, being molded into the personality of christ. A christian who gives up this fight can also lose his salvation because these two things are intimately linked.



I know you haven't had the best of examples when it comes to born again christians,BM, but consider the following, none of these people have let go of their ego yet, it is a constant process. Some are quicker in achieving this than others, and many fall by the wayside in this path. It isn't for nothing that it is called the straight and narrow path. It is hard, very hard and it sometimes involves alot of sacrifice on our part. Many won't make it to the end. Even I am not perfect, and I mean that quite seriously. I struggle everyday to be more like Jesus. Many times I succeed, many others, I fail miserably. If you were to catch me on one of those bad days, You would say, "AND HE CALLS HIMSELF A CHRISTIAN!!! HA! WHAT A HYPOCRITE"

What I'm saying BM, is that a christian is truly not his own boss anymore. Jesus is the boss in all things. That is also why the bible is the guide on how to live a christian life.

I surely hope you are correct, I want all of us to be there. I have no desire to exclude anyone from heaven, thank goodness it isn't up to me, the responsibility would be beyond me.

If the hindu made it to heaven then goody for him and glory to God. God himself is the one who will decide who goes and who doesn't, from what I understand, the heart of the person is what will, in the end, convict or liberate the individual. In the final judgement, we say that God will judge us, but what method will he use to do so?

Our heart, our sincerity, are the jury that will either convict us or release us. We will really be judged by them and not by God.

hi, the reason babies are baptised are that the catholics believe that we are born in sin. because of adam and eve sinning they are born with what they call the original sin. if they are baptised in the baptish or pentacostal faiths it is like a dedication to god. you are giving your child back to god to keep safe. i am a ex catholic . i now am a bapticostal.caught in the middle. when i left the catholic faith and found out there were other religions i was a very confused person. the whole being saved idea was really scarey to me. everyone was trying to tell me what to do to the point that i didnt want to go to church. so what i did was to back up, read my bible and pray for the answers. what god lead me to was john 3-16 which says that god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who soever believe in him shall not perious, but have every lasting life. so many places in the bible speaks about how believeing that jesus is the son of god, that he died on the cross, and rose on the third day is what being saved or born again is. that is why he told the thief that today you will be with me in peradise. because he defended him to the other thief and knew who he was. it didnt take a whole lot of things he had to go thru to make it. just belief. we also have to do the lords work. the bible says that the lords work is to love your neighbor as yourself. i hope this helps some.

Umm sorry but I believe MAN took it apon himself with this idea...there is no proof of Jesus saying..although you are born into chrsitianity, you STILL must be saved again..regardless....

this is what I am talking about..if you get my drift??


Man descidd to use this idea and believes it is what jesus wants..for people to be re-born...regardless if they are chrsitians already..

ummm people wernt called chrsitians (the actual name chrsitians) bacjk then either...it was only years after Jesus died..when man gave himself the name - christian...

When I say they weren't Christians in the first place I mean they really weren't... they hadn't accepted Christ at all. You know what people are like... they go to church, hey presto they're Christian... there's no faith there, no religion, just the act of going to church because, well, that's what you do on Sundays.

Actually, what do you call a person who claims to be a Christian, doesn't have faith in Christ or God, but doesn't not believe? Someone who believes God and Christ exist, but hasn't actually accepted Christ as their saviour... if you see what I mean. What would they be?

hang on a sec...I think I get it now LOL

So someone looked at all of these chrsitian demonations and said..hold up..these people are just BORN into chrsitianity..that doesnt make these people REAL CHRSITIANS..I will start my OWN group...calling it a Born -Again Chrsitian group...and get them to WANT to follow and accpt Jesus


But at the same time showing ignorance towards real chrsitian people who DO accept him...........<--this dont matter to the born agains...you MUST announce yourself...and attend their chuches and bible meeting BEFORE you can consider yourself a true chrsitian

WOW I think its wrong...........but gee sometimes I think...anyone can come up with a religious faith these days

The thing is that the bible has him saying those words. Now you can believe or disbelieve them, but according to scripture, those are his words. They are also echoed in paraphrase by every single other book in the new testament. Every time the words "New life", and "New creation" are used they are specifically referring to this recurring idea of being born again as a new man as a consequence of our reconciliation, through Jesus blood, with God.

Matthew 9:17
Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Mark 2:21
"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse.

Acts 5:20
"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Galatians 6:15
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

Ephesians 4:23
to be made new in the attitude of your minds;

Ephesians 4:24
and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Colossians 3:10
and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.

1 Peter 1:3
[ Praise to God for a Living Hope ] Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

As you can plainly see, this idea is repeated consistently throughout the New Testament, and can therefore be qualified as something that is essential in a christians outlook on life and in his relationship with other people and God.

As for christians not being called christians in the beginning, that is what I said. If I remember correctly they were called Nazereans but don't take my word on that.

*Scrolls above, sees that we're only on the third page, and thinks, wow, BM is doing pretty good, we're not anywhere near the seventh page yet*



*Ties BM's shoelaces together and runs*

Who said anything about a new religous faith or even that they had to attend a born again christian group? They go where they are comfortable and wanted.

If I wasn't comfortable I would go where I was. It is something I have done already, 3 times.

Nasty girl. I wouldn't stop running if I were you....

LOL sorry, couldn't resist. *Loves BM*

you cheeky lil git LMAO

ha ha ha you are funny though...must admit i DID walk into that one LOL

I gave you an oscar BTW now you have to make an oscar speach (please read our other role playing thread)

*distracts Texas with a shinny object so she can talk more with Jor-el and read his posts in peace without getting wedgies and my shoe laces tied* hee hee

Sorry Jor..you must forgive my ignorance..I should have realized that the bible and its words are based on belief..what is believed to be said and truth.......forgive me?? LOL

I understand you now

*looks out for texas for a smart comment lol*



3 times?? can you tell me a lil about the 3 times Jor??

Whenever I speak about these things, the bible is an essential tool for everything I believe in. I know you don't share this opinion and I respect that about you. I hope at least that you know how I arrive at my conclusions.



Well I started off as a catholic, until around 1987 I had that experience I mentioned in another thread. I started looking around for answers and landed up in an Assemblies of God Church.

I then came to Portugal to further my studies and started attending an Assemblies of God church that only left me with bitter memories from my association with them. Everything from backstabbing to gossipping about me. I left after 2 years and went to another church but I didn't feel comfortable with some of the stuff the Pastor would preach about. There was a little too much "prosperity for us" in his messages if you know what I mean.

I then went to this church called "Logos Christian Community" that alot of friends of mine had spoken to me about. It wasn't very big in numbers, but the people were spectacular. I was there for about 5 years and still visit them when I can.

Edit: PS: I would have enjoyed being the skeptic in that reversal of roles you and Texas among others have been playing, unfortunately I only noticed the thread last night. I've been a little busy professionally and personally.

It is probably not surprising that "thaphantum' and the "ghost who walks" have a similar POV, but i couldn't have put it better myself. And if you are not in a position to be baptised, then accepting the sacrifice of jesus as atonement for humanity's original disobedience is enough.
Personally, i go one step further and suggest that christian or not, if you accept god as your creator, and arbiter of your life, then "he' will accept this and accept you back into eternal life.

I agree with this. Ritual is nothing compared to the true feelings one holds in their heart. God does not look on the outside when reading us he looks inside. Our hearts or our souls are what remain true. No matter how much we lie or cheat others or ourselves, the truth allways remains within us. In our souls. That is what God sees that is what God will use to judge. Guilt and salvation. Sin and forgiveness. Sorrow and Joy. All of these we hold in ourselves. No matter how hard we try we can never cloud, deceive or lie to ourselves or God.

When a person accepts that Jesus died and rose again for their sins, that he is the only way to God and that they cannot reach God on their own, at this point, the person is born again. They ahve become a new creation - the old has passed away, replaced with a new spiritual life. Every person who has accepted Christ went through this spiritual rebirth at some stage, even if some cannot remember when it happened. In short, all those who are truly Chrsitians have been born again. This is the only way to reach God, as John 3:3 states - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

As to the group of people who call themselves "born again Christians", I dont know exactly what they believe and how it differs to most other Christians, but it does seem to me that it is an erroneous tag to add on, considering that to be Christian is to be born again anyway.

Of the "born again Christians" I've met (well, those who have announced that they were... I don't know about the ones who kept it to themselves), there seems to be a belief that they are in some way more enlightened than "other" Christians (which for me is odd because as we've seen here, all Christians are born again). I have never understood that, and not one of them has ever been able to demonstrate to me why their faith is any better than a Christian's who doesn't label himself "born again". They were all very critical of non-members of their church (and members for that matter)... rather superior in fact.

Perhaps it's simply a case that the ones I've met have been part of a bolshy church which promotes intolerance, rather than a result of being a "born again Christian", who knows, but all... every single one... considered their way to be the only way and condemned everyone else to burn in hell, without batting an eyelid. They were pretty brutal about it actually. Of those I've known, they all took the contents of the Bible very literally. Like I said though, perhaps that was a result of the church they were part of rather than the label.

I wonder if perhaps people are attracted to the idea of the extra label because it makes them feel more "chosen". The groups I met were a clique, not a church. They all seemed to need to be just that bit better than everyone else.

Shadow, were they personally condemining people to Hell, or were they observing what scripture tells us, do you think? Most Christians understand that they don't have the power to condemn anyone to Hell, that is in God's hands alone.

They said scripture told them, but they were the ones doing the condemning - and forgiving.

I was told that I was condemned for living in sin, but one of the chaps liked my partner (now husband) so much that he persuaded them to allow us into their group for social gatherings. In the middle of a birthday party they were listing people they knew who would burn in hell. Strange though, that when this one chap did sleep with his sister-in-law and they had a baby, the group bullied his wife and insisted she show forgiveness like Jesus... nobody condemned him.

The Buddha taught, that, after you reach enlightenment, you must be born again, and live an entire pure life, without generating bad karma. I don't care what the Christian church teaches. I think Yeshu ben Yosef was teaching the exact same thing as the Buddha. The fact that most Xians are ignorant of this mystery is not my problem.

Thanks for enlighting us ignorant christians. Now if you dont mind , Ive got to get back to eating my mushrooms so that I may perceive the mind of God

VERY CUTE RETORT. Back to Allegro, Eh?

I suggest that you reread the n.t., and be "like a child", ignoring the teachings of your church, that have been drilled into your brain since birth. I know it's difficult to realize you are blindly following your church, instead of Jesus's teachings, but at least, try!

I love allegro ....your so silly when your mad

no anger was involved. I complimented you.

Thanks my friend!