Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Plagues of Exodus
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
airika
I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood
The Plague of Frogs
The Plague of Gnats
The Plague of Flies
The Plague on Livestock
The Plague of Boils
The Plague of Hail
The Plague of Locusts
The Plague of Darkness


QUOTE
Natural Explanations
As noted above, some science writers and Bible researchers have suggested that the plagues were passed-down accounts of ordinary natural disasters, and not supernatural miracles. Natural explanations have been suggested for most of the phenomena:
1.
(plague 1—water turned into blood, fish died)
The redness in the Nile could have actually been pollution caused by volcanic activity, which, due to the color of Nile silt, could make the Nile turn blood red, and would also render it undrinkable. Heavy rains in the red-soiled area of Lake Victoria could have caused reddened water to wash downstream.
Alternatively, a red toxic algal bloom (red tide) could have produced large quantities of toxins that would kill fish.
Earthquakes could have caused a limnic eruption the same way it happened at Lake Nyos
(plague 2—frogs) Any blight on the water that killed fish also would have caused frogs to leave the river and, probably, die.
(plagues 3 and 4—biting insects and flies) The lack of frogs in the river would have let insect populations, normally kept in check by the frogs, increase massively.
(plagues 5 and 6— livestock disease and boils) There are biting flies in the region which transmit livestock diseases; a sudden increase in their number could spark epidemics.
QUOTE
I would also like to point out during the hail storms, they brought the livestock in. (I thought they were all dead) hmm.gif

(plague 7—hail) Volcanic activity not only brings with it ash, but brimstone, and also alters the weather system, occasionally producing hail. Hail could also have occurred as a completely independent natural weather event.
(plague 8—locusts) The weight of hail will destroy most crops, leaving several insects and other animals without a normal food source. The remaining crops therefore would become targeted heavily, and thus be destroyed by swarms of locusts which would otherwise be distributed rather thinly. Or the locusts could have increased due to a lack of predators. Even without these explanations, swarms of locusts are not uncommon today.
(plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.
(plague 10—death of the firstborn)
If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.
The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

Plagues of Exodus


Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?



hairston630
I think its a little of both to be honest. I think God intervenes with nature to cause things like that to happen but thats just my opinion....I have no clue heh
SilverCougar
No different then if I said the sinking of the greek city of Helike was the work of Zues... and someone will then state that it was really just major earthquake.

Or if I'd say that Pompii was destroyed by the gods... and someone will then state that it was just the volcano's time to erupt.

Personaly though, it's nature at it's own will and ways.
airika
QUOTE(SilverCougar @ Apr 2 2007, 01:56 PM) [snapback]1610307[/snapback]
No different then if I said the sinking of the greek city of Helike was the work of Zues... and someone will then state that it was really just major earthquake.

Or if I'd say that Pompii was destroyed by the gods... and someone will then state that it was just the volcano's time to erupt.

Personaly though, it's nature at it's own will and ways.


I absolutely have to agree. I feel that in mythology, when something would happen, that other's didn't have a scientific explanation for, they blamed God, a god, or gods. (And yet there's still no evidence that any of the above exist)
EmpressStarXVII
I selected a little of both. Exodus is my favourite book in the bible to read because of all the drama tongue.gif.
bornagainuhmanduh
I voted natural occurences, because there is a great deal of evidence that supports it being natural. Even if there is a God, why would he punish people to prove a point to the pharoah! How could he take sides like that, which he seems to do so much in the OT. I've read that most of these plagues could occur due to a volcanic eruption, and tectonic activity. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that a huge volcanic eruption occurred on the Greek Island of Santorini around 1500 BC, which fits in with the timeline.

GoddessWhispers
I wonder, has any account in the Egyptian archive been found that record the alleged plagues god set against Egypt, in Exodus?Gods murder of first born children, water turned into blood, swarms of locusts, etc...?
airika
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 2 2007, 02:09 PM) [snapback]1610328[/snapback]
I wonder, has any account in the Egyptian archive been found that record the alleged plagues god set against Egypt, in Exodus?Gods murder of first born children, water turned into blood, swarms of locusts, etc...?



"There is no archaeological evidence for the plagues that are accepted by archaeologists without a predisposition to believe the stories.

There is archaeological material that some Christian archaeologists, such as William F. Albright, have considered historical evidence of the Ten Plagues; for example, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness. Albright, and other Christian archaeologists have claimed that such evidence, as well as careful study of the areas ostensibly traveled by the Israelites after the Exodus, make discounting the biblical account untenable. However, their arguments have not persuaded many archaeologists who do not initially assume the Biblical account is accurate.

The Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus describes a series of calamities befalling Egypt, including a river turned to blood, men behaving as wild ibises, and the land generally turned upside down. However, this is usually thought to describe a general and long term ecological disaster lasting for a period of decades, such as that which destroyed the Old Kingdom. The document is usually dated to the end of the Middle Kingdom, or more rarely, to its beginning, fitting the Old Kingdom destruction, but in both cases long before the usual theorized dates for the Exodus.

Immanuel Velikovsky decided that the Egyptian papyrus did, in fact, describe the events of Exodus, along with the major natural catastrophes that he thought preceded it; in his opinion it was the conventional chronologies of Egypt that were wrong by several hundred years. His theory has never gained credibility among Egyptologists, not even those who are evangelical Christians such as Kenneth Kitchen."


(see the above link)
airika
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 02:06 PM) [snapback]1610326[/snapback]
I voted natural occurences, because there is a great deal of evidence that supports it being natural. Even if there is a God, why would he punish people to prove a point to the pharoah! How could he take sides like that, which he seems to do so much in the OT. I've read that most of these plagues could occur due to a volcanic eruption, and tectonic activity. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that a huge volcanic eruption occurred on the Greek Island of Santorini around 1500 BC, which fits in with the timeline.



Great points my dear. Either one, volcanic, or tectonic, could prove to have caused all of this destruction. And yes, exactly, WHY would God punish all Egyptians, just because he's mad at the Pharoah, when the bible states clearly that God is the one that "hardened his heart".
Harte
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

My first thought is that you left out the option I would have voted for, that these plagues never even took place.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood
The Plague of Frogs
The Plague of Gnats
The Plague of Flies
The Plague on Livestock
The Plague of Boils
The Plague of Hail
The Plague of Locusts
The Plague of Darkness

plague 1—water turned into blood, fish died)
The redness in the Nile could have actually been pollution caused by volcanic activity, which, due to the color of Nile silt, could make the Nile turn blood red, and would also render it undrinkable. Heavy rains in the red-soiled area of Lake Victoria could have caused reddened water to wash downstream.
Alternatively, a red toxic algal bloom (red tide) could have produced large quantities of toxins that would kill fish.
Earthquakes could have caused a limnic eruption the same way it happened at Lake Nyos

Agreed. Since this has happened in recent history, no reason to think it hasn't happened many times before.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plague 2—frogs) Any blight on the water that killed fish also would have caused frogs to leave the river and, probably, die.

They could also easily have been overpopulated as well, since the fish eat the frogs and frog eggs.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plagues 3 and 4—biting insects and flies) The lack of frogs in the river would have let insect populations, normally kept in check by the frogs, increase massively.
Not to mention all the nice dead fish laying around for the insects to eat and lay their eggs in.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plagues 5 and 6— livestock disease and boils) There are biting flies in the region which transmit livestock diseases; a sudden increase in their number could spark epidemics.
No question about it.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plague 7—hail) Volcanic activity not only brings with it ash, but brimstone, and also alters the weather system, occasionally producing hail. Hail could also have occurred as a completely independent natural weather event.

Agreed.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plague 8—locusts) The weight of hail will destroy most crops, leaving several insects and other animals without a normal food source. The remaining crops therefore would become targeted heavily, and thus be destroyed by swarms of locusts which would otherwise be distributed rather thinly. Or the locusts could have increased due to a lack of predators. Even without these explanations, swarms of locusts are not uncommon today.

A "normal" swarm would do the trick nicely without needing any additional reasons for it to be there. The Locust Plague is an ongoing plague even today. Wonder who the Egyptians are supposed to "let go" nowadays in order to make these dern locusts stop their plagueing?

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.

I'll vote for volcanic ash/eclipse. Both of these scared the bejeesus out of the early cultures. That's probably why it was included in the Exodus myth.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
(plague 10—death of the firstborn)
If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.
The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

The firstborn were the most important. The priests who fabricated the Exodus fairytale threw this one in because they realized that all the other plagues the pretended happened to the Egyptians in their tale could be explained naturally. It was the death of the firstborns that caused Pharoah to change his mind and "let those people go..." according to the tale, and it was because the selectivity of this last plague convinced Pharoah (and is supposed to similarly convince us) that there had to be some kind of Divine intervention involved. IOW, didn't happen.

QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 03:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?

Neither. They are a collection of all the plagues the Hebrew priests could think of to throw into one fictionalized story about where they came from. As such, they were likely based on actual plagues known to the ancient people of the area, it's just that these things didn't all happen at once to the same group of people just because they wouldn't release some slaves who weren't even in Egypt at the time. They no doubt had happened at different times to different people, and there are other, non-Jewish, stories that indicate similar plagues happening to other people for other, similar reasons - such as angering the Gods and whatnot.

Just my (nonhumble) opinion.

Harte
thaphantum
QUOTE(hairston630 @ Apr 2 2007, 01:52 PM) [snapback]1610299[/snapback]
I think its a little of both to be honest. I think God intervenes with nature to cause things like that to happen but thats just my opinion....I have no clue heh


i'm going to have to go with hairston on this one...

the major things that i NEVER see considered that seem like they should be important questions are:

how close were these events together?
how close do they have to be before it leaves the possibility of natural occurance?
airika
QUOTE(Harte @ Apr 2 2007, 02:22 PM) [snapback]1610348[/snapback]
Neither. They are a collection of all the plagues the Hebrew priests could think of to throw into one fictionalized story about where they came from. As such, they were likely based on actual plagues known to the ancient people of the area, it's just that these things didn't all happen at once to the same group of people just because they wouldn't release some slaves who weren't even in Egypt at the time. They no doubt had happened at different times to different people, and there are other, non-Jewish, stories that indicate similar plagues happening to other people for other, similar reasons - such as angering the Gods and whatnot.

Just my (nonhumble) opinion.

Harte



LOL....and a welcome opinion at that my dear! That is absolutely another possibility that I didn't think of. *Makes mental note to consult Harte first next time blush.gif *
Tangerine Sheri
air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? crying.gif my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 09:50 PM) [snapback]1610295[/snapback]
I have heard many people use the Plauges of Exodus, as an example of "God's Wrath". I feel that all of these can be explained by either gross exaggerations, or natural occurrences. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

The Plagues of Exodus

The Plague of Blood
The Plague of Frogs
The Plague of Gnats
The Plague of Flies
The Plague on Livestock
The Plague of Boils
The Plague of Hail
The Plague of Locusts
The Plague of Darkness

((plague 9—darkness) There could be several causes for unusual darkness: a solar eclipse, a sandstorm, volcanic ash, or simply swarms of locusts large enough to block out the sun.
(plague 10—death of the firstborn)
If the last plague indeed selectively tended to affect the firstborn, it could be due to food polluted during the time of darkness, either by locusts or by the black mold Cladosporium. When people emerged after the darkness, the firstborn would be given priority, as was usual, and would consequently be more likely to be affected by any toxin or disease carried by the food.
The word we know as "firstborn" may have meant the higher social class rather than literally the eldest sons, but the same argument applies.

Plagues of Exodus

Again I ask, are the Plagues of Exodus just a coincidental string of natural occurences? Or the "Wrath of an angry God"?

When i 1st read the story of Moses..and how God went to such desperate measures to convince a king to let a few people go..I thought it was madness and evil

One of which was killing of all the 1st born lil children WTF?? Why would God need to do this just to convince some idiot to let a few people free??

The allmighty God picks up a copy cat killing spree and kills 1st borns...who where innocent..but hey he wanted to convince the king to let some others wonder the desert for 40 years WTF??

Killing first born...heck this was going on when Moses was just a boy ...even when Jesus was just a baby...kill all 1st born...then God does it too...was it a bibical trend??

And I am supposed to believe bibles stories like this....................WHY?? hmm.gif

God as a mindless killer...killing all the lil first borns to prove a stuipid point................I refuse to believe God would do this

screw that crap
airika
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 2 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]1610399[/snapback]
crying.gif my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....


laugh.gif w00t.gif laugh.gif I have to agree. (I personally feel that God, is a mythological manifestation, used to control the masses.)
Beckys_Mom
Yeaaa Sheri darn straight...someone should hand God an anger managment booklet..to help him on his way...God you do not need to kill the 1st born..you dont need to send rotten plagues just to make a point.................there are better ways God..here have a -->((hug))) and next time you want to write out a bunch of commandments rules don't give it to the idiot that uses them to kill in your name...it gives you a bad rep God...oh and incase the world ends and you descide to create a NEW world...prevent man from writing bulls**t stories protraying your name...now..take 2 of these --> () () and call me in the morning.....WARNING may cause drowsiness dont operate any heavey machinery while taking these and dont mix with the red wine....not being a stool pigeon or anything BUT - your son keeps locked up in his mini bar...ohh yes......he sure does..he tells you its water..but he soon turns it into red wine...tsk tsk!! unsure.gif w00t.gif
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 2 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]1610441[/snapback]
Yeaaa Sheri darn straight...someone should hand God an anger managment booklet..to help him on his way...God you do not need to kill the 1st born..you dont need to send rotten plagues just to make a point.................there are better ways God..here have a -->((hug))) and next time you want to write out a bunch of commandments rules don't give it to the idiot that uses them to kill in your name...it gives you a bad rep God...oh and incase the world ends and you descide to create a NEW world...prevent man from writing bulls**t stories protraying your name...now..take 2 of these --> () () and call me in the morning.....WARNING may cause drowsiness dont operate any heavey machinery while taking these and dont mix with the red wine....not being a stool pigeon or anything BUT - your son keeps locked up in his mini bar...ohh yes......he sure does..he tells you its water..but he soon turns it into red wine...tsk tsk!! unsure.gif w00t.gif

The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO
airika
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 2 2007, 03:23 PM) [snapback]1610447[/snapback]
The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO


There are many other things about the bible that concern me, and taking all of them into concideration, it seems as though he's worse then Hitler. hmm.gif
bornagainuhmanduh
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 2 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]1610399[/snapback]
air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? crying.gif my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....


I agree Sheri. Not to mention killing all but the firstborn males. hmmmm.... The OT God does need some anger management!
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 2 2007, 11:23 PM) [snapback]1610447[/snapback]
The kids thing really concerns me, Hitler and god seem to be cast from the same mold....IMO

Yeaa cuz it was a hitler like man that wrote this crap..protraying God to be a killer

So if man protrays God that way...I feel sorry for those that do love and feel the need to defend thier bible...I@ve lost count how many chrsitians have done this..all give different ipions as to why we shouldt look too much into it..you gotta hand it to them for defending it

BUT see they say DON'T look too much into the harsh doings of God............yes I can see this........A LOT
BUT expect us to look hard into the GOOD things...picking and choosing. SING --- .ladeedaa...all things bright and beautiful..all creatures great and small..lets all look at the goodness the lord has done it all la la la we turn blind eyes to the harsh stuff, we don't see that as true...so we look right at the ladedaa stuff to us it makes God good happy.gif

HA I just made that up w00t.gif
mako
You should have included "None of the above", since there is no mention in Egyptian records (or any other nation's records) of these plagues. They are only mentioned in a book of mythology that wasn't written until the 6th century BCE. yes.gif
Tangerine Sheri
girls and Sis, i too have to go with god maybe worse....How interesting mako yet again , historically sepaking no such thing or mention, certainly frogs or locust would get some air play.....why why why do so many beleive this I can't figure it out....It seems cut and dry to me...
bornagainuhmanduh
BM!! rofl.gif Once again I can barely see to type for the tears of laughter! You should do stand up! clap.gif



GoddessWhispers
Thank you for the information and link Airika. original.gif



QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 3 2007, 03:50 AM) [snapback]1610399[/snapback]
air, this may be abit off topic, but I can't help but wonder why would anyone even consider beiliveing in a diety that had anger issues that would dream up the worst ways to terrorize folks, as a display of his displeasure and call it love..I mean no disresepct to your thread .... i can't get beyond t, the chat to even consider giving this sort of 'being' the time of day....It makes me so sad that this is the diety that is emulated/worshipped? crying.gif my gosh this diety needs a hug, and some anger managment classes....


laugh.gif I always remember the Moses myth when I read another pro-population article, related to activist agendas claiming god is pro-life even going so far as to consider stem cells sacred. Yeah and to bad for those Egyptian males! In utero and out. But god is pro-life!

Yeah, I can read that. Page after page after page....

I don't understand how the image of god can be one of benevolence, when the pro-active image is one of intolerance and murderous violence. And it is murder, by definition. Murder (first degree)-The killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation ...

And then, when people commit violent acts. Kill gays, assault women, claiming it's by gods ordinance they do such grievous offense, those that claim to follow the same god say that's not their god telling those people that! Context! Indeed. mellow.gif
airika
QUOTE(mako @ Apr 2 2007, 03:35 PM) [snapback]1610465[/snapback]
You should have included "None of the above", since there is no mention in Egyptian records (or any other nation's records) of these plagues. They are only mentioned in a book of mythology that wasn't written until the 6th century BCE. yes.gif


Yes....I know...Harte pointed that out to me earlier blush.gif I hope that everyone can forgive me.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 11:39 PM) [snapback]1610470[/snapback]
BM!! rofl.gif Once again I can barely see to type for the tears of laughter! You should do stand up! clap.gif

I do..a lot LMAO..each time i stand up..some bastd laughs LMAO w00t.gif yahooooooooooo look at the funny girl mommy..she is silly hee hee blink.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 11:44 PM) [snapback]1610479[/snapback]
Yes....I know...Harte pointed that out to me earlier blush.gif I hope that everyone can forgive me.

no.gif I would forgive you....honest!! LOL laugh.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 2 2007, 11:44 PM) [snapback]1610477[/snapback]
Thank you for the information and link Airika. original.gif
laugh.gif I always remember the Moses myth when I read another pro-population article, related to activist agendas claiming god is pro-life even going so far as to consider stem cells sacred. Yeah and to bad for those Egyptian males! In utero and out. But god is pro-life!

Yeah, I can read that. Page after page after page....

I don't understand how the image of god can be one of benevolence, when the pro-active image is one of intolerance and murderous violence. And it is murder, by definition. Murder (first degree)-The killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation ...

And then, when people commit violent acts. Kill gays, assault women, claiming it's by gods ordinance they do such grievous offense, those that claim to follow the same god say that's not their god telling those people that! Context! Indeed. mellow.gif

Reading the bible to me was like reading a Stephen King novel blink.gif only I like steven king novels w00t.gif
bornagainuhmanduh
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 2 2007, 03:47 PM) [snapback]1610491[/snapback]
Reading the bible to me was like reading a Stephen King novel blink.gif only I like steven king novels w00t.gif


But what if Steven King was God and ultimately your judge in the end? unsure.gif
airika
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 2 2007, 03:44 PM) [snapback]1610477[/snapback]
And then, when people commit violent acts. Kill gays, assault women, claiming it's by gods ordinance they do such grievous offense, those that claim to follow the same god say that's not their god telling those people that! Context! Indeed. mellow.gif


I have to agree. It clearly states in the bible, that all gay men are to be killed. All Adulterers are to be killed. All the first born sons of all of Egypt are to be killed. All murderers are to be killed. *sigh*......I guess there's never enough killing.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1610493[/snapback]
But what if Steven King was God and ultimately your judge in the end? unsure.gif

Then I would say...WOW you are him..........then I must be allowed in to your heaven...cuz I read all your books.and liked them..and I own a few of your dvd's movies ..just ask my Gary he will vouch for me ner ner...now if you dont mind..im going on through God...which way to the mini bar?? innocent.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1610493[/snapback]
But what if Steven King was God and ultimately your judge in the end? unsure.gif


I would say "hello, please let me into King Land, I am your greatest fan but I promise not to tie you to a bed and hobble you". laugh.gif
airika
LOL BM!!....

I would like to pose this question to you, do you choose to NOT believe what the bible says about that because your "God" could never do such a thing? Or do you think the evidence of the volcanic eruption, or tectonic movements have provided?
Pax Unum
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 04:06 PM) [snapback]1610326[/snapback]
I voted natural occurences, because there is a great deal of evidence that supports it being natural. Even if there is a God, why would he punish people to prove a point to the pharoah! How could he take sides like that, which he seems to do so much in the OT. I've read that most of these plagues could occur due to a volcanic eruption, and tectonic activity. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that a huge volcanic eruption occurred on the Greek Island of Santorini around 1500 BC, which fits in with the timeline.

yeah, I agree... thumbsup.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]1610507[/snapback]
LOL BM!!....

I would like to pose this question to you, do you choose to NOT believe what the bible says about that because your "God" could never do such a thing? Or do you think the evidence of the volcanic eruption, or tectonic movements have provided?

I was raised to follow the chrsitian God..to never question the bible..........but see I am smart enough to know whats right for me..and took the time and re-read a lot of the stories and they didn't make sense........I believe God is what people say he is - ALL LOVING...ALL POWERFUL..and ALL MIGHTY..........YES only I will understand what that means...I WONT believe the trash man has written...I do believe God is there..but not how man has protrayed him...I refuse to believe that crap..it's like thay cant make up their minds..one min he is Mr Jackal and the next he is Hyde WTF?? A wolf like character in sheeps clothing..............come on LOL and then I am told...but BM you shouldnt look into the harshness like that...here take these , they are rose tinted glasses, wear them and see it how I see it...ummmmm take your rose tinted glasses and shove keep them yourself .. this is WHY a lot of people turn away from chrsitianity..du to this bible and how its made God out to be a killer

Some have said (wearing rose tinted $1.99 a pair glasses) but killing is not the same as murder........WTF?? you kill someone (with intent to kill) ..you have indeed committed murder

BUT wait.the 10 commandments says Thou Shalt not kill.....................later changed to thou shall not commit murder...<--fixed for rose tinted glasses get em while you can w00t.gif

I say..for anyone who reads my posts....keep your rose tinted glasses on...and you will think BM is fantastic!!!!! Wheeeeeeeeeeeee lol

*hands out the rose tinted glasses..one for you..and one for you..and you..here ya go airka & uhmanduh two for the price of one*
airika
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 2 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1610516[/snapback]
I was raised to follow the chrsitian God..to never question the bible..........but see I am smart enough to know whats right for me..and took the time and re-read a lot of the stories and they didn't make sense........I believe God is what people say he is - ALL LOVING...ALL POWERFUL..and ALL MIGHTY..........YES only I will understand what that means...I WONT believe the trash man has written...I do believe God is there..but not how man has protrayed him...I refuse to believe that crap..it's like thay cant make up their minds..one min he is Mr Jackal and the next he is Hyde WTF?? A wolf like character in sheeps clothing..............come on LOL and then I am told...but BM you shouldnt look into the harshness like that...here take these , they are rose tinted glasses, wear them and see it how I see it...ummmmm take your rose tinted glasses and shove keep them yourself .. this is WHY a lot of people turn away from chrsitianity..du to this bible and how its made God out to be a killer

Some have said (wearing rose tinted $1.99 a pair glasses) but killing is not the same as murder........WTF?? you kill someone (with intent to kill) ..you have indeed committed murder

BUT wait.the 10 commandments says Thou Shalt not kill.....................later changed to thou shall not commit murder...<--fixed for rose tinted glasses get em while you can w00t.gif

I say..for anyone who reads my posts....keep your rose tinted glasses on...and you will think BM is fantastic!!!!! Wheeeeeeeeeeeee lol

*hands out the rose tinted glasses..one for you..and one for you..and you..here ya go airka & uhmanduh two for the price of one*


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to agree with most of your post. The part that I don't quite agree with, is the knowledge of the actual existance of God. *puts on rose tinted glasses and walks out*
thaphantum
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 2 2007, 02:59 PM) [snapback]1610410[/snapback]
When i 1st read the story of Moses..and how God went to such desperate measures to convince a king to let a few people go..I thought it was madness and evil

One of which was killing of all the 1st born lil children WTF?? Why would God need to do this just to convince some idiot to let a few people free??

The allmighty God picks up a copy cat killing spree and kills 1st borns...who where innocent..but hey he wanted to convince the king to let some others wonder the desert for 40 years WTF??

Killing first born...heck this was going on when Moses was just a boy ...even when Jesus was just a baby...kill all 1st born...then God does it too...was it a bibical trend??

And I am supposed to believe bibles stories like this....................WHY?? hmm.gif

God as a mindless killer...killing all the lil first borns to prove a stuipid point................I refuse to believe God would do this

screw that crap


you sure do love the kids... lol...

the interesting thing is... i didn't read from ANYONE about how God sent Moses and Aaron to ask the Pharoah nicely FIRST... he said no... then moses made his staff turn into a snake... which the magicians copies and their snakes were eaten...

also... God sent Moses over and over again... to ASK pharoah to let the people go... pharoah didn't... so each thing go progressivly worse... until the death of the first born... in which they were spared the pain and misery of this life... and then pharaoh finally got the point... "maybe i shouldn't screw with God... and just let His people go"

even after all that... pharoah got his army together and went after them to kill them... and God wiped them out... but nobody seems to put that much of it into perspective...

and through my reading of the Bible... i've NEVER ran across any part in the Bible where God kills without reason...
it's usually those who haven't read the story that points things like that out... or if you have read the story... you ignore eveyrone else's actions... and just focus on what God did...
thaphantum
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 2 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1610516[/snapback]
I was raised to follow the chrsitian God..to never question the bible..........but see I am smart enough to know whats right for me..and took the time and re-read a lot of the stories and they didn't make sense........I believe God is what people say he is - ALL LOVING...ALL POWERFUL..and ALL MIGHTY..........YES only I will understand what that means...I WONT believe the trash man has written...I do believe God is there..but not how man has protrayed him...I refuse to believe that crap..it's like thay cant make up their minds..one min he is Mr Jackal and the next he is Hyde WTF?? A wolf like character in sheeps clothing..............come on LOL and then I am told...but BM you shouldnt look into the harshness like that...here take these , they are rose tinted glasses, wear them and see it how I see it...ummmmm take your rose tinted glasses and shove keep them yourself .. this is WHY a lot of people turn away from chrsitianity..du to this bible and how its made God out to be a killer

Some have said (wearing rose tinted $1.99 a pair glasses) but killing is not the same as murder........WTF?? you kill someone (with intent to kill) ..you have indeed committed murder

BUT wait.the 10 commandments says Thou Shalt not kill.....................later changed to thou shall not commit murder...<--fixed for rose tinted glasses get em while you can w00t.gif

I say..for anyone who reads my posts....keep your rose tinted glasses on...and you will think BM is fantastic!!!!! Wheeeeeeeeeeeee lol

*hands out the rose tinted glasses..one for you..and one for you..and you..here ya go airka & uhmanduh two for the price of one*


so your saying that any solider that ever went to war are just a bunch of mass murderers correct? they go to war with intent to kill...

the Hebrew word does indeed imply mean murder... it was changed to say kill by modern society...
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 3 2007, 04:49 AM) [snapback]1610493[/snapback]
But what if Steven King was God and ultimately your judge in the end? unsure.gif

I for one would be saying, is there still time to join a book club!?

And Stephen said: Judge not lest ye read, "Carrie"! tongue.gif
airika
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Apr 2 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]1610538[/snapback]
and through my reading of the Bible... i've NEVER ran across any part in the Bible where God kills without reason...
it's usually those who haven't read the story that points things like that out... or if you have read the story... you ignore eveyrone else's actions... and just focus on what God did...



Are you kidding me???????? (sorry GW, I know you hate that)

You feel that it's OK to murder a bunch of little innocent children, just because the pharoah said no? With simple minded insinuations such as this, then one could say, My neighbor hit his wife, so God should kill all the kids in the neighborhood. It's just as assnine.
thaphantum
QUOTE(mako @ Apr 2 2007, 03:35 PM) [snapback]1610465[/snapback]
You should have included "None of the above", since there is no mention in Egyptian records (or any other nation's records) of these plagues. They are only mentioned in a book of mythology that wasn't written until the 6th century BCE. yes.gif


if anyone is familiar with egyptian mythology... you would realize that the plagues are an attack on some of the egyptian gods... showing how powerless they really were in the face of the Hebrew God...

http://www.answers.com/topic/plagues-of-egypt breaks down the story of Exodus and the 10 plagues...

also.. here you go mako...

"The Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus describes a series of calamities befalling Egypt, including a river turned to blood, men behaving as wild ibises, and the land generally turned upside down. However, this is usually thought to describe a general and long term ecological disaster lasting for a period of decades, such as that which destroyed the Old Kingdom. The document is usually dated to the end of the Middle Kingdom, or more rarely, to its beginning, fitting the Old Kingdom destruction, but in both cases long before the usual theorized dates for the Exodus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt

however... i would like to point out a few things...

1. it does state that most archeologist are already biased against believing that the 10 plagues happened... so they aren't really looking for proof
2. the evidence that is presented isn't even seriously looked at
3. the official date of the exodus is a THEORY and not concrete... which means that they could indeed be wrong about the above section that i posted from wikipedia

just thought i would toss that into the fray for those that wanted to read it... and so that if you try to drop a date for the Exodus... people know that you are quoting a THEORY... not a fact...

bornagainuhmanduh
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Apr 2 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]1610356[/snapback]
i'm going to have to go with hairston on this one...

the major things that i NEVER see considered that seem like they should be important questions are:

how close were these events together?
how close do they have to be before it leaves the possibility of natural occurance?




The first plague (blood) lasted for 7 days.

The frogs came for one day, and the Pharaoh said he wanted them gone the next day. So 2 days for the frogs.

The gnats/fleas then came, and it doesn't offer a timeline, just that they couldn't get rid of them. So this was ongoing, I presume.

The next was pestilence/epidemic disease, which doesn't list the amount of time. Probably ongoing as well.

The next, boils/skin disease was also probably ongoing.

Hail and fire, a storm came next, it stopped, although time is also not listed here. (notice a trend with which plagues come to an end?)

The locusts came after eating everything, so probably within days. Then they went away, which locusts do.

The darkness lasted for three days.

And then of course the last, the killing of the first born males, which was how many days, not many...I can't remember.


Anyhow, looking at this from the biblical sense, it probably lasted several weeks/months, with some of the plagues never really ending, like the fleas/gnats for example.

What happens after all of this is really interesting, after the parting: The Israelites were lost in the wilderness for 40 years, and then Moses struck the rock twice to get water, and God had told him to only strike the rock once, so God got angry and told Moses he would never find the promised land for that sin, so he died at the end of that 40 years. Wow! Even after going through all of those plagues, doing what God told him to do, God punished him for striking the rock twice! crying.gif
thaphantum
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]1610573[/snapback]
Are you kidding me???????? (sorry GW, I know you hate that)

You feel that it's OK to murder a bunch of little innocent children, just because the pharoah said no? With simple minded insinuations such as this, then one could say, My neighbor hit his wife, so God should kill all the kids in the neighborhood. It's just as assnine.


i guess if you view death as bad... which i don't... especially since i believe kids go to heaven... so really in my OPINION they made out good on the deal... and honestly... i envy their position... but that is just personal OPINION...

and by the way... your example is sooooo far off of what happened...
God ASKED first... multiple times... since pharoah didn't seem to care that his kingdom was falling apart... God took the next step and took out a whole generation of egyptians...

but what we have entered here is the realm of opinion... so we could go back and forth all night... you'll probably still see it as wrong... and i'm not going to see a problem with it... because it could have all been avoided if pharoah wasn't so intent on enslaving the Jewish people...

edited: by the way... Moses told pharoah what was about to happen to the first borns... and pharoah pretty much said... "so what, screw you and screw your God, you're still slaves"

so pharoah could have stopped it but didn't want to...

and by the way... am i spelling PHAROAH right? lol... it looks wrong...
airika
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Apr 2 2007, 05:00 PM) [snapback]1610591[/snapback]
just thought i would toss that into the fray for those that wanted to read it... and so that if you try to drop a date for the Exodus... people know that you are quoting a THEORY... not a fact...


Well.....he never said that's when it took place, he was giving an estimated date as to when that book of the bible was written. (I wasn't aware that 6th century BCE was an exact date hmm.gif ) I must also say, that you yourself quote quite a bit of theories and mythology, as if it were fact. I mean no disrespect to you, but Thank you for reposting what I had already posted, and not quite understanding it's context. I would also like to ask if you have a different link, rather then the ask.com link, for your references on the ancient Egyptians acknowledging the hebrew God.
thaphantum
QUOTE(uhmanduh @ Apr 2 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1610597[/snapback]
What happens after all of this is really interesting, after the parting: The Israelites were lost in the wilderness for 40 years, and then Moses struck the rock twice to get water, and God had told him to only strike the rock once, so God got angry and told Moses he would never find the promised land for that sin, so he died at the end of that 40 years. Wow! Even after going through all of those plagues, doing what God told him to do, God punished him for striking the rock twice! crying.gif


actually there was more to it than that... that's a whole off topic discussion about the Rock of Living Water... a prophecy of Christ... etc...

but the reason that Moses didn't see the promised land was because of the 12 spies... 10 didn't want to invade... 2 (Joshua and Caleb) said... let's go for it...

but because Moses trusted the spies and not God... Moses wasn't allowed to see the promised land..
bornagainuhmanduh
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Apr 2 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1610599[/snapback]
i guess if you view death as bad... which i don't... especially since i believe kids go to heaven... so really in my OPINION they made out good on the deal... and honestly... i envy their position... but that is just personal OPINION...

and by the way... your example is sooooo far off of what happened...
God ASKED first... multiple times... since pharoah didn't seem to care that his kingdom was falling apart... God took the next step and took out a whole generation of egyptians...

but what we have entered here is the realm of opinion... so we could go back and forth all night... you'll probably still see it as wrong... and i'm not going to see a problem with it... because it could have all been avoided if pharoah wasn't so intent on enslaving the Jewish people...

edited: by the way... Moses told pharoah what was about to happen to the first borns... and pharoah pretty much said... "so what, screw you and screw your God, you're still slaves"

so pharoah could have stopped it but didn't want to...

and by the way... am i spelling PHAROAH right? lol... it looks wrong...


I think you can spell it both ways!! Seriously, I do!! lol laugh.gif

Anyhow, the Pharaoh didn't have a choice. God darkened his heart, so he couldn't choose to end it. Also, why should one bad thing (the enslavement of the Israelites) excuse another (the killing of the first born)?
airika
QUOTE(thaphantum @ Apr 2 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1610599[/snapback]
i guess if you view death as bad... which i don't... especially since i believe kids go to heaven... so really in my OPINION they made out good on the deal... and honestly... i envy their position... but that is just personal OPINION...

and by the way... your example is sooooo far off of what happened...
God ASKED first... multiple times... since pharoah didn't seem to care that his kingdom was falling apart... God took the next step and took out a whole generation of egyptians...

but what we have entered here is the realm of opinion... so we could go back and forth all night... you'll probably still see it as wrong... and i'm not going to see a problem with it... because it could have all been avoided if pharoah wasn't so intent on enslaving the Jewish people...

edited: by the way... Moses told pharoah what was about to happen to the first borns... and pharoah pretty much said... "so what, screw you and screw your God, you're still slaves"

so pharoah could have stopped it but didn't want to...

and by the way... am i spelling PHAROAH right? lol... it looks wrong...


You're making excuses for a mythological deity, and using irrational thought patterns in the process. If your god was so almighty, then please, tell my why he didn't just kill the pharoah? Your God decided to choose his own "sacrafices". He supposedly so many innocent children and animals, when he could have stopped it all with killing one man. Seriously, your mythology makes no sense, and I feel there's no justification in your god "actions".
thaphantum
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]1610603[/snapback]
Well.....he never said that's when it took place, he was giving an estimated date as to when that book of the bible was written. (I wasn't aware that 6th century BCE was an exact date hmm.gif ) I must also say, that you yourself quote quite a bit of theories and mythology, as if it were fact. I mean no disrespect to you, but Thank you for reposting what I had already posted, and not quite understanding it's context. I would also like to ask if you have a different link, rather then the ask.com link, for your references on the ancient Egyptians acknowledging the hebrew God.


i wasn't referring to his date of the writing of the Bible... mako posts a lot of dates as if they were fact... and as i usually point out... most of them are not fact like he sometimes presents them to be...

when i post theories... i try to always present it as a theory... or i will put that it is my OPINION...

the ancient egyptian link was from wikipedia... the exodus breakdown is from answer.com, but if i run across a few more sources... i'll post them for you... i figured answer.com would be somewhat unbiased... but as we all know... everyone has an agenda...

i'm not sure what you had already posted... i'll have to check again...
bornagainuhmanduh
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]1610612[/snapback]
You're making excuses for a mythological deity, and using irrational thought patterns in the process. If your god was so almighty, then please, tell my why he didn't just kill the pharoah? Your God decided to choose his own "sacrafices". He supposedly so many innocent children and animals, when he could have stopped it all with killing one man. Seriously, your mythology makes no sense, and I feel there's no justification in your god "actions".


WOW! I never even thought of that! What a great question. wink2.gif Why would God resort to such violence?
thaphantum
QUOTE(airika @ Apr 2 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]1610612[/snapback]
You're making excuses for a mythological deity, and using irrational thought patterns in the process. If your god was so almighty, then please, tell my why he didn't just kill the pharoah? Your God decided to choose his own "sacrafices". He supposedly so many innocent children and animals, when he could have stopped it all with killing one man. Seriously, your mythology makes no sense, and I feel there's no justification in your god "actions".



not excuses... just point out what's rational to me... in my opinion... your thinking on it is irrational... but lets look at it for a sec...

God kills pharoah... another one takes his place... and so on and so on...
it's the same as if the U.S. President gets killed... they just replace him with another person... so that wouldn't work now would it?

next... if God is all powerful... He controls where the children go when they die... so supposed they went to paradise where they never have to suffer pain, loss, diappointment, etc... are you telling me that you don't want them to have eternal happiness? if that's what you're inferring... that would make you EVIL... because in essense you are saying... screw their eternal happiness... they needed to be on earth to experience all the bad it has to offer... just so they can die in the end anyway...

and since you keep referring to God as "mythological" why are you agruing about what a "mythological" being should and shouldn't do...

if you truly believe God isn't real, yet you are angered by His actions... doesn't that make you wacko.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.