A Mars-orbiting satellite recently spotted seven dark spots near the planet's equator that scientists think could be entrances to underground caves.
The football-field sized holes were observed by Mars Odyssey's Thermal Emission Imaging System (THEMIS) and have been dubbed the seven sisters --Dena, Chloe, Wendy, Annie, Abbey, Nikki and Jeanne--after loved ones of the researchers who found them. The potential caves were spotted near a massive Martian volcano, Arisa Mons. Their openings range from about 330 to 820 feet (100 to 250 meters) wide, and one of them, Dena, is thought to extend nearly 430 feet (130 meters) beneath the planet's surface.


The researchers hope the discovery will lead to more focused spelunking on Mars.


"Caves on Mars could become habitats for future explorers or could be the only structures that preserve evidence of past or present microbial life ," said Glenn Cushing of Northern Arizona University, who first spotted the black areas in the photographs.


A project here on Earth aims to refine the visual and infrared techniques THEMIS used to find the Martian caves and to also develop robots that can one day enter the caverns and explore them.


Practicing on Earth


Called the Earth-Mars Cave Detection Program, the project is preparing to enter phase 2, during which scientists will test their approach in "Mars analogue" sites, terrestrial environments with similarities to Martian landscapes. These sites will include dry, blistering deserts, such as the Mojave in California and the Atacama in Chile, as well as frigid environments like Iceland and Antarctica.


During the first phase of the project, the researchers acquired the thermal signatures of a dozen caves in Arizona and New Mexico using an experimental infrared detector flown aboard an airplane, called the Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector (QWIP), as well as data collected on the ground using a handheld thermal camera.


Cave detection using QWIP works by spotting regions in the landscape where temperatures are different from the surroundings. Inside a cave, temperatures are nearly constant due to lack of sunlight. Outside, temperatures fluctuate with the rising and setting of the Sun. At a cave entrance, these two temperature regimes mix together to create a unique thermal signature that, depending on the time of day, can be either warmer or cooler than the surrounding environment.


"The caves show up as hotspots in a sea of cold, or as cold spots in a sea of warmth," said study team member Murzy Jhabvala, chief engineer of the Instrument Systems and Technology Center at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center.


The data, still being analyzed, look promising. In one series of images, the researchers snapped thermal images of Xenolith Cave in New Mexico over a 24-hour period. The cave opening can be seen clearly in some of the images.


"It jumps out at you," said Jut Wynne, a biospeleologist (cave biologist) with the U.S. Geological Survey and Northern Arizona University. "It lights up like a Christmas tree in the predawn and in the late-night shots. It's a bit more ephemeral during the day shots."


In Phase 2, the researchers will tweak their technique to figure out the best wavelengths to use and optimal times during the day for cave hunting. "In so doing, we're going to take these applications and then apply them to an orbiter platform for Mars," said Wynne, who is also the Earth-Mars Cave Detection Program project leader.


Robotic cave explorers


The project team also aims to design robots that can explore caves on Mars after they have been spotted. Natalie Cabrol, a planetary geologist with NASA Ames and the SETI Institute, will be integral to this part of the project.


Cabrol is a Mars robot veteran. Before Spirit and Opportunity were sent to Mars, she helped engineers perfect their designs by field-testing the robotic rovers in the Atacama Desert in Chile.


The researchers may have to design more than one type of robotic cave explorer. "There are many types of caves," Cabrol said in a telephone interview. "It may be that we come up with one very versatile design ... or we might end up with several designs."


If the caves have a relatively simple structure--like lava tubes, which are caves carved by flowing magma and are relatively simple and straight--a rover-type robot might work, Cabrol said. "I would doubt that a rover, equipped as they are now, would do a good job in a cave" with a more complicated geometry, she said.

Open to ideas

The researchers are also considering other robotic design possibilities, including the deployment of several miniature robots together into a cave.

"You could throw out an array of microbots in a birdshot approach over an area where you think there is a cave," Wynne told SPACE.com . The microbots could then use sonar or some other method to confirm the presence of a cave and pinpoint its location.

Whatever form the team's robotic explorer ultimately takes, it will have to be agile, have some basic sense of self-awareness, sport excellent night vision and have the ability to communicate with one other in some innovative way, since conventional radio communication might not work well in caves, Cabrol said.

"We are very much on the starting line on this," she added. "This is very exciting. This is really the time when ideas are flitting all over the place."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20070402/sc_...insearchforlife

Beardown, it is important that you follow the rule I have quoted below as failure to do so can be an infringement of copyright laws:



Thank you.

The source link for the above article: Space.com

Patrick Moore on the Sky At Night 50th aniversary edition the other night said that he believes that there is microbial life on Mars ...His Astrnomer guest agreed with him ....These guys dont say these things without having formed an opinion based on what they know ...I think it's only a matter of time.....Europa also

A link to watch the 50th year aniversary special here.....Moore is the King of Astronomers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacegu.../proginfo.shtml

I was going to tell the op, he needs to post a source but Waspie did that.

Besides, this is an old story originally posted by Saurman, I think.

I was rather surprised by that as Patrick Moore has always been one of the most vocal in saying that there is no life on Mars. Great man though he is (and I've had the pleasure of meeting him several times) he is not always right. After World War II lost a bet with Arthur C. Clarke over when man would land on the Moon, Moore said it would not happen before 2000. Moore, an expert on the Moon, was one of those that believed that craters on the Moon were volcanic and not impact in origin, something he now concedes he was wrong about.

It should also be noted that they were talking about life with a Martian origin but having been sent there from Earth on a meteorite.

This programme was not about what they know but about what thet expect will be known in 50 years time. The fact that they came down on the side of life on Mars and Europa is really no more than an educated guess based on current knoweledge. All it takes is the results from one spacecraft to swing those best guesses back the other way. Just because it is possible that these worlds could have life doesn't mean they must have life. To quote Sir Patrick, "We just don't know."

Yes and no. There have been stories about this for a while but the official Northern Arizona University press release was only released yesterday (I know this because I posted it in the Exploration of Mars thread in the Space News section last night). The article that Beardown reproduced is also dated yesterday.

"We are very much on the starting line on this," she added. "This is very exciting. This is really the time when ideas are flitting all over the place."


In the future if we have spelunkers on Mars, I believe they're going to find more than rock in those caves. And I'm not talking about just microbes.

Yes, a lot of main stream scientists, astronomers and such are talking of the very real possiblity of MICROB Life on Mars now. Especially with the Rovers finding more and more traces of water.

At the UoWash - word of mouth - non-classified.
A teacher/friend there told me that the "ARfC" (Ark) - subject to change w/out notice - is seriously in the works. ESA, Russia, NASA, according to "inside rumors" are planning this together so that all three get the 'glory' IF these caves fine life, which I think would be excellent!

Supposedly there will two stages of the Rover would be one large BASE rover and 1,2 or 3 smaller 'Scout Rovers'. The BR would stay at the enterance of the mouth of the cave and send in the Scouts. This way radio control would allow for the deepest possible exploration into the cave.
One of the 'concerns' he told me is these Scouts would have to have seriously bright light (Halogen or stronger), as well as Iferred and Nightvision. Also a battery life of a good 6+ hours for all the equipment to run and such.

These are exciting times. I actually think the Robotic Exploration of Other 'life possible' planets is the best first step. This allows us to explore w/care and caution till we know it's as safe as such can be.

This will be a very exciting future to watch and see what unfolds.

Roving Platform

Last time I checked caves were a natural formation.

But I'll make a prediction.. Soon the Richard Hoaglands of the world will start putting forward 'proofs' of an underground Martian civilization. When NASA or someone sends a rover or maybe even humans to explore them and reveal that they contain nothing more than stalagtites and stalagmites (if that, depending on how much water is available). These people will scream 'airbrushing'! 'cover-up'! Those that claim the landing wasn't staged in some sound studio, that is.

Well let's review: water? Check. Microbes? Check. Caves? Check.

Yup, that's all you need to discover that there was microbial life on that planet at one time. Oh and also HIGHLY EVOLVED FORMS OF LIFE!!! WHY IS NASA SO AFRAID TO THROW THAT OBVIOUS OPTION OUT THERE?

Are we really so scared of finding life on other planets that we have to keep up the ruse that it's going to definitely be microbial only? Is this not the scientific version of owning a giant truck because your penis is small?

"Sure, we'll find life out there... provided we're totally in control of it."

Wimps.

Mars isn't very hospitable for advanced life... It's cold, there isn't enough water, and the atmosphere's too thin.

Please uncheck the microbes. To the best of my knowledge that has not been confirmed yet. Which is why even more sophisticated probes are being planned, with the specific purpose of looking for microbes.



And please see Uth's post on the highly evolved life forms.

Best,
Badeskov

I've seen both your posts and will raise you this:

1.) Yes, too cold now. Barring some secret underground civilization, we're talking about in the distant past there could have been advanced life.

2.) Microbes. Not proven. Correct. So why is it we went to Mars in the first place?

Uth - The sad reality is, I too can actually see this happening.... Sigh.............

Possible, yes, but I would hope that such a civilization would leave behind something more convincing than a 'face' that looks up into the sky only under certain lighting conditions. The right approach is to see if you can find evidence to verify such a hypothesis, not assume the hypothesis must be correct, and if they fail to find evidence, then they aren't telling the truth.

Good, we agree on that then. The reason for going to Mars in the first place is pretty straight forward. Aside from the moon, it is the closest planet. It has an atmosphere and at the time the decision was made, it was hypothesized it had water, which we now know is true. We also hypothesized that we would find microbes, however, these have not materialized yet. Maybe they will (and I think they will), but maybe they actually won't. Only one way to know and that is to go there to look.

Same with many other missions, it's a question of exploration and sometimes the endeavor is successful, sometimes not

Best,
Badeskov

As I said in the CT thread about the Evil Conspiracy to Make Pictures of Mars More Red:



And they obviously live in caves. Here's a pic. I blurred it up to make it more familiar:

It's not very often I disagree with you Badeskov, but actually Venus is closer.

Venus is, however, a very inhospitable place (to say the least). There is virtually no chance in the foreseeable future of a manned landing there and even unmanned vehicles survival time on the surface is measured in minutes. As a result of this, despite further away, Mars is the next logical step after the Moon.

Waspie, you are absolutely correct! I wasn't clear enough in my post and I should have said something to that effect. Venus is closer, but very inhospitable and obviously not a viable goal for a manned mission anytime soon. Mars, on the other hand has a thin atmosphere which while not breathable, leaves the Martian surface at a temperature which almost invites for a visit from Earth

Best,
Badeskov

I agree. There are so many compounding reasons why Mars is our logical destination in the Solar System. Not to mention that it is the only Planet we have a real chance of successfully colonizing and or terraforming in the near future.

IMO, we as a Human race are committed to Mars. Even if one entertains a nightmare scenario where the U.S. forfeits on a planned trip to Mars, the ESA or China or some combination of Powers will certainly fly towards Mars with a colonization effort in the near future. IMO, this is an inevitable progression of Human efforts.

In other words it's hard for me to imagine a technologically advanced human future that does not include a Mars colonization effort.

There in lies a moral dilemma. Should we colonise Mars if it does have life? What roghts do alien microbes have?

This is especially pertinent once we are capable of terrforming as to drastically change the conditions on Mars could make indigenous life extinct.

I don't think that is an issue at all. I don't believe microbes have any rights at all. Sure mankind shouldn't just destroy them to destroy them, but we shouldn't stay away because they are there.

So you believe, having done our best to destroy this planet, it is Ok to ruin any other planet that we want? Is that right? Because if we colonise another planet which has life there as a good chance that is exactly what we will do.

We are sentient beings. If the odds of survival for the human race can be severely improved by killing off a few alien microbes, then I say we should do it. Mars will be a brand new planet, one where we won't have to worry about global warming.

Yet. till we do there what we have done here.

Do microbes have moral dilemmas on whether or not to spead and infect a human host? Even ones that cause diseases and are capable of killing the host?

No- Microbes (and every form of life really) expand where food and other necessities are plentiful.

Near future? We haven't even been there yet. I would think we'd set up bases on the moon first to work the kinks out of the colonization thing.

If Amereica had none the damage it was doing to earth when we first entered the industrial age. I am ....somewhat confident that we wouldn't have made our mistakes. We already know the concequences, it would be like a second chance from God. Hell maybe that's why Mars was put there to begin with.

Much as I enjoy the picture (and I do), that wasn't my point. My point is not that there was a race of people on Mars and NASA's covering it up. It's that NASA is afraid to deal with this very question and so they keep the dialogue limited to the possibility of microbes, not the possibility of advanced life forms.

If there were advanced life forms on Mars, why would they go to the trouble of hiding their entire civilization from us? Star Trek Prime Directive acknowledged, it would still be ridiculous to hide an entire civilization.

So what are you saying, that in the cosmos mars was put there for the soul puporse of the human race, to use and abuse as we have our first planet.

I was suggesting the possiblity that God knew we would screw ourselves over the first time because we wouldn't know what we're doing. So, he put mars there to give us the second chance that we deserve.

There could have been a civilization there ages and ages ago that got bowled over by asteroids, for which we'd have to go digging for their remains. If there were survivors they could have moved underground, I suppose, if they'd seen it coming and built an artificial emergency environment. That's all very sci-fi but I don't see it as a stretch to suppose there may have been civilization there long ago, before whatever happened that killed the planet.

My point is if there was once running water and a hospitable climate, more than microbes would have grown there, odds are. But the very people who purport to be searching for life out there do not want to say this out loud because it's a frightening proposition. We may not feel like we have, but as a speices, we have set ourselves up as the center of the universe. To discover an alien civilization would bring this unconscious lie we live boiling to the surface. To discover an alien civilization that has been completely wiped out...I wonder what that would do to our psyche?

No, it's much safer to pretend we're the center of the universe and then when logic catches up to imagination, pretend that we honestly want to discover an alien civilization. This is where we're at, I'm afraid.

Hey I would love to find an alien civilization. But Mars is in our back yard. It belongs to us. They can have alpha centari, unless it turn out we come up with the ability to travel to other systems before we can terra form Mars, in which case centari is ours. If there were an advanced civilization on Mars, we would have some sort of evidence. Left overs. I heard somewhere that every civilization has left a sort of mark on the world. Little itsy bitsy artifacts. The better the civilization the more advanced, the bigger the artifacts. Take rome, they left a colloseum and aqueducts and walls. If there were ever a civilization on the surface of Mars, we would know it. Now underground civilizations? that's another matter.

I thought they found some fossilized micro-bacteria on Mars? Suggesting that life did once exist, in its most primative form, then something happened.
The caves remind me of the movie, The Decent, oooh, they're just hiding in the shadows till a rover or human comes to visit in about 20 years, lol.

We haven't done our best to destroy this planet. We could do more. And things have not been done with the purpose of destroying the planet. It's an unfortunate side effect that I wish would have been addressed a thousand years ago.

If you're fine with swatting a fly, then you should be more than OK with killing microbes. I know that sounds bad, but to leave another planet alone because there's a slight chance that in a billion years intelligent life may develope is not right.

Actually, this story proves something else. It doesn't really matter that there might be life on mars somewhere under ground, microbial or otherwise. What can we do with that? We have those same features on this earth. Underneath the shorelines of every continent on this planet is tunnels and caves and rooms that go for miles and miles underneath the surface. The same thing is on and in every planet that has volcanic activity. What happened during the latest outbreak of earthquakes on Hawaii. Didn't the surface around one of the houses collapse and the house fell in. That is happening all over. Why? Probably because the weight of the house, but why did the surface fall through? Well, obviously there was no lava to hold up the surface. Yes, that's half of it. The other half is there is no more lava to 'replenish the earth.' There is no more lava to replenish the surface of mars. How much longer are y'all going to have your interest and your conscience pulled away from this earth? What is 'swamp gas?' How can anything that they discover on Mars help YOU? You won't go to Mars, you can't live on mars, but you can be a slave to the people who are building the rockets to go there and explore the same exact things we have on this earth that have not been explored yet. When have you heard that they sent probes down into a volcano on this earth? They have cameras that film the eruptions, but how long has it been since the volcano on Hawaii has erupted? Say, 'Well, that's too dangerous. We would lose all kinds of money and equipment chasing after shadows!' What, is there a different shadow on Mars? What y'all need to do is pack your bags and go to the Jet Propulsion Labratory in Florida's great Cape Canaveral and demand that you be taken on the next flight to Mars so you can see for yourself what their camera's see and that way you will know and can plan on what real estate to buy over there so you can have your dream home. These people are leading you into a never-never land that will never-ever be.

"How can anything that they discover on Mars help YOU? You won't go to Mars, you can't live on mars, but you can be a slave to the people who are building the rockets to go there and explore the same exact things we have on this earth that have not been explored yet."

Because, gregg, not all of us are so dedicated about promulgating semi-coherent pseudo-historical 'truth.'
Some people want to discover what the rest of the universe is like and why it's that way. Some people just want to add to the sum total of human knowledge. Some people want to make money. Some people think discovering things on Mars will somehow help things here on Earth -- most of us have gotten past the adolescent belief that we understand the world better than everyone else -- and if even if one individual now can't use some piece of data, someone later on might.

--Jaylemurph

There is a huge difference between swotting a fly and destroying an entire planet's eco-system. This could be the only other life in the solar system but you would happily wipe it out. It is exactly this reasoning that has brought this planet to it's knees. If we don't learn the lessons from the mistakes we have made here then there really is no term hope for us as a species.

Wow that is interesting, I wonder how it will turn out.

"Because, gregg, not all of us are so dedicated about promulgating semi-coherent pseudo-historical 'truth.'"



This is what I was talking about when I was telling about the meteor over Turkey:


Chew on this one awhile:

http://www.detailshere.com/ufoconference.htm

From that site:
"The most amazing event,
though, was a large meteor seen from four airliners in the air, two
on the ground, and many other witnesses. At about 45,000 feet a UFO
split it in two and then it broke into about 20 pieces as it burned
up in the atmosphere. This was captured on camera."

http://ufoinfo.com/filer/2002/ff0247.shtml

From that site:
Sirus has responded claiming, "A meteor that entered into the atmosphere and that would possibly wreak havoc on earth was broken into pieces and rendered ineffective by a UFO before it hit the Earth. The incident could be considered as one of the most prominent events in history of mankind, was witnessed by a total of 6 different airliner crews (4 in the air, 2 from the ground) and was filmed by an amateur camera. This historical event which discloses the reality of the existence of extraterrestrial life has been subjected to in-depth analysis by our research center for 15 days. E-mail:info@siriusufo.org. http://www.siriusufo.org

Editors Note: It is my experience that meteors breaking apart can easily be confused for UFOs. However, the meteors or shooting stars last for only a few seconds. The pilots testimony seems to indicate they had the objects in sight for many minutes. There is also some evidence that UFOs use natural events such as meteoroids to conceal their entry. Frequently numerous UFO sightings are reported in the following days, if they were present.

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/wizardfl/TURKEY.html

At this site you will find the video and what is unexplainable to me is the flashing orb of light in the tail of the debris.

I will try and find the reports of the UFO spotted flying up from the ground to break up the comet that was witnessed by Ariel Sharon about the same time or some time either before or after. I only find debunking comments about that.
Now, about your 'cause and effect,' a meteor will break up in the atmosphere in a blinding flash of light and it will appear that something away from the meteor shoots a ray of something when actually it will be a static electrical discharge that does it. What happens in a particle accelerator when two atoms are smashed together?

Your argument is that the debris that breaks up in the atmosphere will not cause any adverse reactions in humans.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meteor blasts New Zealand with sonic boom

The explosion left behind a large cloud of smoke

July 8, 1999
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9907/08/new....teor/index.html
(CNN) -- New Zealand residents were still talking Thursday about the exploding meteor that cast an eerie blue light, generated a sonic boom, and showered the Earth with fragments from space.
---------------------
The contents of meteors is deuterium (Heavy Hydrogen). The atmosphere of the earth is 77% Nitrogen. The fusion of deuterium with nitrogen produces Nitric Acid (HNO3 ).

Toxicity
Concentrated nitric acid and its vapors are highly corrosive to the eyes, skin, and mucous membranes. Dilute solutions cause mild skin irritation and hardening of the epidermis. Contact with concentrated nitric acid stains the skin yellow and produces deep painful burns. Eye contact can cause severe burns and permanent damage. Inhalation of high concentrations can lead to severe respiratory irritation and delayed effects, including pulmonary edema, which may be fatal. Ingestion of nitric acid may result in burning and corrosion of the mouth, throat, and stomach.

You, yourself, said that space stuff is here, there, and everywhere.
__________________________________
Y'all blast off, don't let the debris hit you on the way out like it did to the shuttle. Bring back all of those precious things you find. You might want to keep you space suit on when you get back though.

We don't know how long we have, but we do know that likely eventually humanity will come to an end on Earth, whether due to comet, asteroid, Super Volcano, or something of our own doing. The best hope for the continuation of our species is to spread out. If it came down to our survival vs some microbes survival.. Why would we choose the microbe? We could always keep specimens of it around in test tubes. It's not like the microbes would even know the difference anyway.

Anyway, the balance of life is ALWAYS being affected by preditors, natural occurances, food supply etc. According to evolutionary theory and the fossil record, many whole species died off to get us to our current point without human intervention, humans are part of nature too... so why is it such a crime when we do something that affects an environment in anyway, but ok and natural when any other plant or animal does it?

Is there any pictures of these caves?

There are supposedly fish on one of the moons of Jupiter. Give it 2 billion years and maybe we'll have fish people. But Mars is still ours.

Mars is in our backyard and belongs to us... lol.lol.lol. what planet are you really living on, even earth dosent belong to us. we are only guests.

If we're the guests, who's the host?

Earth is ours. We are the dominant species as of now. Until that ends, then it belongs to us.