If god is real, what is science? all the things that science has proved and everything that the bible DOESNT talk about is just insignificant? I really dont understand religion or the church, which is just a corrupt form of government trying to control everyone.

Not everyone who believes in God believes in the Bible.

Are you just asking why people believe in the God of the Bible?
I believe in God, but not the Bible. Science and God aren't mutually exclusive.

But god is a man made idea.. giving human qualitys to something and then saying it can do whatever it wants, it isnt bordered by anything physical just undermines itself. If you were to say that god is the thing that started or created the universe, thats all it would be, god would be the creation of the universe, of course your entitled to your own opinion just like anyone else in the world.

Also if God is who the bibles makes him out to be, why wouldnt he know about technology? why wouldnt he write in the bible about anything modern, everything that was written was bordered by where they were technology wise, basically saying that it was human-made.

When I see the earth, animals, sun, or the moon, I don't think MAN created this masterpiece--...Puleaase. No bible needed, no religion is desired, nor required. My creator is divine regardless of man or bible. God is not a physical entity and doesn't have to abide by physical things or science.. like our simple minds would think. God is spiritual and spirit can't be proven with science, nor science with spirit. You can't prove he IS NOT there, no more, than can I prove he is. There is no physical test to prove the love I have for my daughter, and my daugher's for me, but I know it's there and it's real regardless. That is how spirit works -& God is the ultimate spirit.

God didn't write the Bible.

Which is now being outdated by more backed up and explainable theories.

Well im just gonna start off by saying that after you read it, alot of you will probably want to kill me.

This post is about why people believe in god. I know there has been ENDLESS amounts of discussions about this but i would just like honest opinions on why you believe in god.

First off, why would u believe something that was made so many thousands of years ago when nobody knew ANYTHING about science or how the universe is put together, they knew nothing about the elements, or atoms, or matter or any of that, and somehow the bible is the explanation of the universe? i mean all there doing is trying to explain the unknown of why we are here, and church was only made to control the masses(everyone not worthy of noblety) it just falls down to a simple good and bad, if you act good thoruhgout your life you will be rewarded, but really wouldnt it make sense for noblety to say this just so that there is less crime and so that people listen to there every command? it shuts out free will. Also the bible doesnt explain how we are a little drop of water in a lake and somehow there is nothing else out there? just a gargantuan void of rock and dust? this one little spec holds the only life in the universe? Also if God is who the bibles makes him out to be, why wouldnt he know about technology? why wouldnt he write in the bible about anything modern, everything that was written was bordered by where they were technology wise, basically saying that it was human-made.

I mean everything that we believe in up to this date is made up by a small group of peoples believes who had power over everything else, which basically lead us thruogh the wrong path all the way up into this point, so how can any belief be justified. It just puzzles me how we are listening to this one book that could easily be the thoughts of one person who THOUGHT they knew how the world was created.

If god is real, what is science? all the things that science has proved and everything that the bible DOESNT talk about is just insignificant? I really dont understand religion or the church, which is just a corrupt form of government trying to control everyone.

The greatest trick the devil played on mankind was convincing them he didn't exist.

These theories you embrace so tightly are merely ever changing guesses. Yet, you question the validity of God, but not the validity of these theories. The Idea of God has not changed. There has ALWAYS been the premisis there is a divine (creator/s) with mostly all peoples, despite the culture that's in question. Since man has existed there seemed to exist the idea of God or a Gods, or Goddesses. Which God is not the concern here, but rather, why God and not evolution--

btw, spirit can be negative energy as well.

The reason i dont validate any of these theories is because they validate themselves, the theories are made upon what we see and what we measure, they are backed up by us seeing them and using logic and reason to find the best suited answer, and the reason god has been around so long is because there was a hierarchy for so long, and was forced upon the people, the people were like peons, just doing what they were told, and pretty much all religions come from the same source, the original copy of the bible writtin in hebrew, just translated into their culture.

The greatest trick the devil played on mankind was convincing them he didn't exist.

The reason i dont validate any of these theories is because they validate themselves, the theories are made upon what we see and what we measure, they are backed up by us seeing them and using logic and reason to find the best suited answer, and the reason god has been around so long is because there was a hierarchy for so long, and was forced upon the people, the people were like peons, just doing what they were told, and pretty much all religions come from the same source, the original copy of the bible writtin in hebrew, just translated into their culture.

What you see and what you measure? It's the same thing with our God. Do you see the atom? The molecule of that atom? Do you? Do you see the air? God is valid to all who believes in him - we feel his grace, and we see all his creations and it can't be measured scienfically, or spiritually. -- This universe is perfect in its place. Every planet, even the earth is set right at a specific degree away from the sun.. for obvious reasons. This was all an accident? Everything is placed in it's proper order, design, even down here to the animals-- straight to the sea- back up to the stars. It's all an accident you say. That is rational, that is logic? Where did the atom come from, what made the atom? How do you know?

LMAO, that just backs up the fact that the people who made the bible wanted complete control over the people reading it, and eliminated any threat to that.

First off, why would u believe something that was made so many thousands of years ago when nobody knew ANYTHING about science or how the universe is put together, they knew nothing about the elements, or atoms, or matter or any of that, and somehow the bible is the explanation of the universe?

Negitive is a human concept.
There is no possitive or negitive in the "Good and bad" sence.

Only what one preceives it. What is good for someone, may be seen as bad to another. It is how you use, or preceive such things that make anything... Gods, magic, spirits, life good or bad, possitive or negitive.

Complete control? You do have free-will, no one is forcing you to believe in God correct? No one is forcing you to read the bible? Where is this "complete control?"

It's amusing to read these discussions. People lapse into telling each other what god is and does and his great plan for believers. Woe to those who question the authority and abilities of the supreme being cum creator. God is love but we should fear him. It's pretty much nonsense.

If god is real, what is science? all the things that science has proved and everything that the bible DOESNT talk about is just insignificant? I really dont understand religion or the church, which is just a corrupt form of government trying to control everyone.

Evidences and Reconciliations, John A. Widtsoe (31 January 1872—29 November 1952) - Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1921-1952)

25. WHAT IS THE ATTITUDE OF THE CHURCH TOWARD SCIENCE?

This question, frequently asked, is readily answered.

The Church, the custodian of the gospel on earth, looks with full favor upon the attempts of men to search out the facts and laws of nature. It believes that men of science, seekers after truth, are often assisted by the Spirit of the Lord in such researches. It holds further that every scientific discovery may be incorporated into the gospel, and that, therefore, there can be no conflict between true religion and correct science. The Church teaches that the laws of nature are but the immutable laws of the Creator of the universe.

This view has been held consistently by the Latter-day Saints from the organization of the Church. A revelation given to the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1832, when science was yet in its swaddling clothes, declares:

And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand.

Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—...

And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith. (D. & C. 88:77, 78, 79, 118)

President Brigham Young frequently expressed support of the labors of men of science. For example, in one of his sermons he said:

I am not astonished that infidelity prevails to a great extent among the inhabitants of the earth, for the religious teachers of the people advance many ideas and notions for truth which are in opposition to and contradict facts demonstrated by science, and which are generally understood.... In these respects we differ from the Christian world, for our religion will not clash with or contradict the facts of science in any particular. (Discourses of Brigham Young, pp.397, 398)

President Joseph F. Smith made similar statements:

We believe in all truth, no matter to what subject it may refer. No sect or religious denomination in the world possesses a single principle of truth that we do not accept or that we will reject. We are willing to receive all truth, from whatever source it may come; for truth will stand, truth will endure.... True science is that system of reasoning which brings to the fore the simple, plain truth. (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, pp. 1, 6)

The gospel and science have the same objective—the discovery and possession of truth—all truth. Hence follows the attitude of the Church toward science expressed at the head of this chapter. However, science has been content, until recently, to study the material universe, and to leave its findings without reference to their possible effect upon human conduct. The gospel on the other hand is primarily concerned with the manner in which truth is used in the spiritual field, that is, with human conduct. For example, science has discovered explosives of great power, and has shown how by their use rocks may be shattered or projectiles shot through the air, and has left this knowledge without comment as to its proper use. The gospel teaches that this new power be not used in warfare, for wars are evil, but that it be used in the peaceful arts of man. The gospel deals with right and wrong; science as yet has scarcely touched this field. The gospel accepts God as the author of all knowledge; science gathers facts and tries to interpret them, without reference to a Supreme Being. In short, the gospel is the more inclusive; present-day science, less inclusive. In the end, the two must become as one, for their common objective is truth.

The Church holds that the methods used by science to discover truth are legitimate. Indeed, all instruments and means developed for the exploration of nature are welcomed. The Church claims the right to employ, in addition, such processes as are peculiarly fitted to its search for truth in the spiritual domain, which in turn may become tools in the advancement of a future science freed from its present material bondage. In this wholehearted acceptance of science, the Church makes, as must every sane thinker, two reservations:

First, the facts which are the building blocks of science must be honestly and accurately observed. In science, as in every human activity, dishonesty, carelessness, or aberrations of senses or mind may be encountered. The Church expects science to present accurately observed and fully corroborated facts. Loose methods of study are not acceptable. Indeed, the vast body of scientific facts has been so carefully garnered that it may in the main be accepted without question.

Second, the interpretations of observed facts must be distinctly labeled as inferences, and not confused with facts. The human mind properly attempts to explain or interpret the phenomena of nature, the facts of observation. A pencil looks bent in a glass of water. Why? asks the eager thinking mind. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Why? Does the sun move around the earth, or does the earth revolve upon its axis, to give the effect of day and night? The answers to such questions are explanations or interpretations, really inferences, often called hypotheses or theories. These do not have the certain value of facts, for they usually change as new facts are brought forward. For example, with the knowledge at his command, Newton advanced the theory that light consists of particles; later, Young explained the phenomena of light as forms of wave motion; today with increasing knowledge both of these theories are questioned, and another one is in the making. Meanwhile, the phenomena of light remain unchanged; they are the same today as in the time of Newton. Occasionally, but seldom, an inference such as the cause of night and day becomes so well supported by discovered facts that it assumes the dignity of a fact. Most inferences, however, are in a condition of constant change, due to the continuing accumulation of new knowledge.

Dr. Albert Einstein, author of the relativity theory, speaks of scientists as men who seek solutions of the mysteries in the book of nature (Einstein and Infeld, The Evolution of Physics, pp. 1, 5). He insists that nature's mystery story is not only still unsolved but may not have a final solution. All that man can do is to collect facts, arrange them in an orderly fashion, and then to make them understandable by "creative thought"—that is, by the formulation of inferences, explanations, interpretations, hypotheses or theories, whatever the name may be.

In this particular do Latter-day Saints, in common with all thinkers, sound a warning to science. There must be a distinct segregation of facts and inferences in the utterances of scientific men. Readers of science should always keep this difference in mind. Even well-established inferences should not lose their inferential label. The facts discovered by an eminent investigator may be safely accepted; his explanations may be of doubtful value.

It is within recent time that Millikan and Compton, both Nobel prize winners, held widely differing explanations of the nature of "cosmic rays." And, recently, also, the discovery of the skull of a prehistoric ape with a set of human-like teeth has overthrown the inference that teeth are always true indications of the place of a fossil in the evolutionary scale. With respect to this latter matter, there was pathos in the remark of the famous anthropologist, Sir Arthur Keith, that "This discovery has destroyed the finer points we anthropologists depend on for drawing the line between anthropoid and man."

In summary: The Church supports and welcomes the growth of science. It asks only that the facts of science be as accurately determined as human powers permit, and that confusion between facts of science and inferences of science be earnestly avoided.

The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth.

Well im just gonna start off by saying that after you read it, alot of you will probably want to kill me.

This post is about why people believe in god. I know there has been ENDLESS amounts of discussions about this but i would just like honest opinions on why you believe in god.

First off, why would u believe something that was made so many thousands of years ago when nobody knew ANYTHING about science or how the universe is put together, they knew nothing about the elements, or atoms, or matter or any of that, and somehow the bible is the explanation of the universe?

i mean all there doing is trying to explain the unknown of why we are here,

and church was only made to control the masses(everyone not worthy of noblety)

it just falls down to a simple good and bad, if you act good thoruhgout your life you will be rewarded,

but really wouldnt it make sense for noblety to say this just so that there is less crime and so that people listen to there every command?

it shuts out free will.

Also the bible doesnt explain how we are a little drop of water in a lake and somehow there is nothing else out there? just a gargantuan void of rock and dust? this one little spec holds the only life in the universe?

Also if God is who the bibles makes him out to be, why wouldnt he know about technology? why wouldnt he write in the bible about anything modern, everything that was written was bordered by where they were technology wise, basically saying that it was human-made.

I mean everything that we believe in up to this date is made up by a small group of peoples believes who had power over everything else,

which basically lead us thruogh the wrong path all the way up into this point, so how can any belief be justified.

It just puzzles me how we are listening to this one book that could easily be the thoughts of one person who THOUGHT they knew how the world was created.

If god is real, what is science?

all the things that science has proved and everything that the bible DOESNT talk about is just insignificant?

I really dont understand religion or the church, which is just a corrupt form of government trying to control everyone.

Well im just gonna start off by saying that after you read it, alot of you will probably want to kill me.

This post is about why people believe in god. I know there has been ENDLESS amounts of discussions about this but i would just like honest opinions on why you believe in god.

You want to debate the existence of God. That is a pointless debate. Why do people debate the existence of God? Nobody can prove he exists. Nobody can prove he doesn't exist. You will never resolve anything by debating it.

When has debate ever changed anyone's opinion?

You either put your faith in God or you put your faith in the knowledge and reasoning of men (ie. science).

When I see the earth, animals, sun, or the moon, I don't think MAN created this masterpiece

takes place over a few thousand year period that can be verified and validated through archaeology and science.

How do you?

I dont claim to know anything, i see that science is a MUCH MORE logical path towards universal creation, and the reason that everything is so perfect, is because if it wasnt it wouldnt function properly, if god made everything, the bible would say that god made atoms would it not? people back then did not know how things worked, yet they could tell you how everything was created? i think not my friend, science is logic and what science measures is perfect, because it has to be.

Religion is a fictional novel with no proof at all, wheras science has tons of proof for its forumlas and calculations.

And let me ask you something, what has God done for you? has he directly changed anything in your life, have you had a direct connection to him? and another thing, if God is so divine, why is it he cant find it within himself to help out all the people who are dying on the streets? where is your god there?

That's what we do here... we debate, question, learn... that's the point.
It changed mine.
There are other choices... I reason there is a God, but I do not have faith in him. Reason and God aren't mutually exclusive.

Never said belief and faith were mutually exclusive. I said people either put thier faith in God or men.

It has been my experience that debate rarely, if ever, changes anyone's opinion. You think debate changed your opinion. Tell me how. What argument changed your opinion? Mostly debate is ego driven. The two people debating try to get the better of each other. In the end someone is made to look stupid or foolish. I don't know why our society thinks debate is so great. It rarely resolves anything.

People who don't believe in God are looking for scientific proof that he exists. Nobody can provide that.
People who believe in God don't believe scientific theories that seem to contradict thier beliefs.

Neither side can prove to the other that thier wrong. How are you going to resolve anything that way?

If you think you can change somebody's opinion by debating it then go a head and try. I don't believe you will be successful.

You think debate changed your opinion. Tell me how. What argument changed your opinion?

If you think you can change somebody's opinion by debating it then go a head and try. I don't believe you will be successful.

Complete control? You do have free-will, no one is forcing you to believe in God correct? No one is forcing you to read the bible? Where is this "complete control?"

my OPINION on a lot of things have changed since my short time here... personally, my belief in the specific book of ENOCH (thanks to Ashley Starchild and PA)... i now look at the book with a little more authenticity as far as importance... i did some research online and found some interesting info... my entire OPINION didn't change... i still don't believe it was written by Enoch, but i do believe it to be an important book...
and based on that experience... i will now look a lot deeper into other books that weren't included...

Complete control? You do have free-will, no one is forcing you to believe in God correct? No one is forcing you to read the bible? Where is this "complete control?"

Hmmm......this is even part of a lesson/parable

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Control.....OH YEAH!

Very very Interesting Phantom you say this!! that is me and you both -- I knew of Enoch's existence, but assumed it to be just another lost bible or banned book. In just the past month or so found myself literally drawn to the book and it's wealth of information- once I began to read it, and study it- and now view this book as very important part of our bible legacy. I will keep studying Enoch, and even those others "lost" as well. I was literally overwhelmed at all the hidden insight. I am so thankful for it being brought to my attention.

(I, too, give thanks so much thanks to Ashley )

Even you write a thousand commandments, people will still kill people.
The real commandments was written in our DNA.
Since i have a very good DNA, that's the reason i can't kill another person and not
because there is God or i'm scared of God.
How can you be sure that God is all powerful? I don't think he is?
Only thing i know is, we are governed by God or Gods.
But powerful God? no way he can create the whole universe.

not so with science and religion... both sides are comparing notes and gaining perspective... but the debate part of it will always lean toward the religious aspect... i'll say why...
science CAN'T provide evidence that a Higher Power exists or doesn't exist... it can ONLY say if references by religious texts are wrong or right... IF it is actual science and not just guess work or a unilatteral "wet dream" someone has about somethng they can't prove... so they cast it under the term science, when it would more approprietly fall under the veil of religion...
religion on the other hand can use science and say that certain EVIDENCE points to the existance of a Creator... which true science CANNOT prove or disprove the statement...

History is a different story... it CAN indeed prove that something out of the ordinary happened when someone predicts events with great detail 1000s of years before the event...
at this point it comes down to whether skeptics believe it was the power of God... or just want to say it was the power of man... but what it does prove is that something out of the ordinary happened...
my OPINION on a lot of things have changed since my short time here... personally, my belief in the specific book of ENOCH (thanks to Ashley Starchild and PA)... i now look at the book with a little more authenticity as far as importance... i did some research online and found some interesting info... my entire OPINION didn't change... i still don't believe it was written by Enoch, but i do believe it to be an important book...

and based on that experience... i will now look a lot deeper into other books that weren't included...

now, as far as my religious and personal BELIEFS, i can say that they haven't changed, but have been expanded... but you weren't talking about personal belief anyway... you just said OPINION

You said so yourself, science can't prove or disprove the existence of God. My only point was it is pointless to debate (argue) about the existence of God when nobody can win the debate. Neither side can prove to the other that they're wrong. People have been debating the existence of God since ancient times. It has never resolved anything. There are still nonbelievers and believers. Why even debate it? The only way it will ever be resolve is if God decides to reveal himself. I don't believe God wants everybody to believe in him. If he did then he would reveal himself.

My only point was it is pointless to debate (argue) about the existence of God when nobody can win the debate. Neither side can prove to the other that they're wrong. People have been debating the existence of God since ancient times. It has never resolved anything. There are still nonbelievers and believers. Why even debate it?

before coming to this site... all those books just sat on my book shelf... i read them and didn't think too much of them...

i've had them since 10th grade in highschool... the Apocrypha... Lost Books of the Bible and Forgotten Books of Eden...

up until Ashley and PA put forth their argument for the book... the only 2 that i accepted as somewhat geniune were the 1 & 2 Book of Macabees...

but now i have a renewed interest in the books...

Function properly ?!! You mean we (all life as we know it) wouldn't exist? Or if something broke, we'd be as good as fried chicken? Funny, how everything is made in accordance to human survival.. almost where the "big bang" had a plan after all----hmm.
We are not discussing "people back then" we are discussing the concept of God. Even if there were no bibles, my friend, it is still apparent that a supreme intelligent being is in charge of our universe.
God hates religion, imo. When we die, there is NO RELIGION, there is merely our spirit in the presense of God.
Where does science PROVE there is no GOD, btw?
Whoa!
--
9 years old sitting in our car waiting on my mother to get back in the car. She had went inside of her brother's house. We had just got back from the fair and she stopped by his house for something. My brother and sister were in the backseat. My sister was 6, my brother was 3. Something yelled to me to get them and run. It didn't ask me, it told me too. Commanded me. I didn't ask questions. I didn't once stop and see what or who, I just accepted the command. I jumped out of the drivers side door (b/c the door on the passenger side was messed up), got out, let up the front seat and grabbed my sister and brother (my sister was the scaredy type, she fought me in the beginning- didn't want to).. I grabbed my brother and we started running (him on my back). We ran and ran.
Later, my mother admitted in court she had gotten a gun from her brother's and had plans on killing herself and us. She was going thru major depression, and was on some serious messed up medication. This was her second attempt on us. The first time went unknowing until court day. We were put in our father's custody...
I still have dreams about that night... I'm running, and running.. and I'm not getting away. Who wouldn't? That was my mother, forgodsakes. I have forgiven her.
Who saved our lives?
And for your information everyday, in my line of work, I deal with the streets. I work in the sex crimes division/ unit here. Not all of our victims are survivors- Just to let you know... Don't you think I have not ask God "why?".......... please!!
This is how I see it. That isn't God doing this, this is mankind, our screwed up choices, our mistakes, and the enemy. Yet we blame God for this imperfect world, and our pathetic lives-- it's us making all the choices. How dare we? Something don't go our way, or something isn't smooth in our favor, and it's WOE IS ME!! I helped a lady yesterday, whose daughter was found over here behind the dumpsters.... I liked the lady, old lady, really sweet, wanted to pinch her cheeks sweet... you know... My heart went out to her and what she was going thru... who gave a crap about her? No one did.... She said Prayer comforted her.... I think we are too self absorbed to help other folks... But, that's not God, that's US being selfish... not wanting to be inconvenienced by anyone with problems.. it's pathetic.. we are RIGHT here... why aren't we helping more? Why blame God?

LMAO... somebody doesn't read...

you took that from a PARABLE that Jesus was telling... lol...

He didn't give His desciples that order... lol...

i love how people try to take things out of context...

Exactly, so if God has the power to stop us from making all these bad decisions, why would he not do it, if he has enough power to create the universe he can obviously steer us away from our problems. But he chooses not to because hes not there and nothing is controlling us because we are seperate living organisms just advancing in complexity.

Exactly, so if God has the power to stop us from making all these bad decisions, why would he not do it, if he has enough power to create the universe he can obviously steer us away from our problems. But he chooses not to because hes not there and nothing is controlling us because we are seperate living organisms just advancing in complexity.

But he chooses not to because hes not there and nothing is controlling us because we are seperate living organisms just advancing in complexity.