as i got to thinking late last night... i realize that EVERY single person on the planet has one question in common that we eventually have to answer....

if you believe in any type of Higher Power... that is because you had the question... "where did all of this come from?"

if you believe in evolution... you eventually have to ask the question... "where did the materials for life come from?"

if you believe we are the result of random chance, you still have to ask... "where did it all come from?"

if we are the result of an alien genetic experiment... you still have to ask... "where did they come from?"

if you believe there is a giant universe that spits out lots of other universes... "where did it come from?"

ultimately, that is the question that will lie at the heart of every debate, idea, or theory...
ultimately, we are trying to figure out... what was before the beginning?

if cosmic gasses exploded... where did they come from?
if they created space, where were they before space was created?

whether or not you believe in a Higher Power is not the issue...
what is the issue is that life itself is very illogical and shouldn't exist... so why do we try to use logic to explain an illogical universe?

maybe... in order to truly understand... we have to think illogically... all known probabillity suggests that nothing should exist... and that is one thing no one can argue with...
that is a MATHEMATICAL and SCIENTIFIC FACT...

so my PERSONAL belief makes sense to ME because LOGICALLY, we should not exist according to probability...
but ILLOGICALLY, neither should an all powerful being that lives outside of the time domain...

the wind is completely invisible to the HUMAN EYE, yet we feel it... it moves boats... and can even destroy towns... but although we can't see it, we know it's there...
oxygen is invisible to the human eye... yet we have faith that if we take a breath... it's going to fill our lungs and keep us alive...

in court, we accept eye witness testimony as a means of deciding one's fate...
but why is it that when someone claims to witness something out of the ordinary... it's written off as delusion or lying?

has anyone stop to think... why exactly do we wonder where we came from? why do we care?
it seems as if every person on this planet was programmed with that SPECIFIC curiosity... almost every major theory and religious belief revolves around some form of that question... "why are we here?" or "where did we come from?"

PERSONALLY it makes me wonder... if there is a God... is that His way of letting us know that He is really there?
is it something so subtle as a common thought among all humans? is that His way of talking to us all?
if it is... we have turned the message into such a loud, counterproductive argument, that we can't even hear what is really being said...

and the message seems to be... "I'm here. That's why you are trying to answer a common question."

maybe some of us would hear God if we tuned out the rest of the world and just listened... maybe not...

the simple fact of the matter is this... we must all face the same reality in the end... either God exists... or He doesn't...

those are the ONLY two options in the end... we will either meet our Creator or we won't...
in either case... for some people... that will be the ultimate reality check...

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that thaphantum.


I like especially why you ask why we question our existence. I think that is important.


However I think that the answer is "We don't know."

I am cool with that answer because its the only one we can prove at the moment.

thanks...

like you said... we don't know... and that's really the only thing we do know at the moment...

it's almost like a question that was asked... but we don't know why it was asked... or who or what asked it...

Questions as old as man. I think someday we will find the answers. That is why I am in the religion I am in seeking answers. I don't think life is illogical, IMO it is the reason the Universe is to generate life to look within itself.

Doesn't the fact that we exist suggest that it is logical that we should. Without the use of logic we leave ourselves open to all sorts of nonsense.

Actually this is the coolest post I've ever seen you make Thephantum.

It's a nice peice of critical thinking that I'm going to have to think about for a while. Two thumbs up man.

not really... in all PROBABILITY, we shouldn't exist...

but that's just probability... the chances that something can or can't happen...

probability doesn't have any say on whether an event will or will not happen... so strictly based on probability it would be ILLOGICAL for one to think that this could happen again...
whether it will or not... that's a different story...

as far as opening ourselves up to nonsense... we do that all the time... as far as OPINION is concerned...

some people think a belief in God is nonsense...
some people believe evolution is nonsense...
same with aliens, accident, reincarnation, etc...

just a little over 100 years ago, people thought going to the moon was nonsense...
and not even 50 years ago, some people thought there would only be use for a couple computers around the world... if that many...

so nonsense is basically in the eye of the person forming the OPINION... and any other person that believes that OPINION...

thanks... i appreciate it...

Wouldn't the thing have to make sense for it to be accepted though. I mean, a person who thinks a belief in God is nonsense would have to find that the idea made sense before it was considered as a possibility. None of us accept nonsense whilst believing it to be so... do we?

that's 100% true...

i was speaking about those whose OPINIONS are in oposition to our own beliefs...

for example... i believe in hell, which is nonsenes to some people...
but at the same time, reincarnation is nonsense to me...

so it's all a matter of OPINION and perspective...
like TrueThat said... the only thing that we DO know... is that we DON'T know...

The reason i stopped asking question is because, i have found my reality.

Yep, it's a matter of the person's life experiences and perceptions... and I DO know- :}

Sorry man. I don't recall ever asking that question and I don't currently wonder about it.

I think there is more curiosity in the why we are in then in the how we are here. Eventually somewhere down the line there was probably something has always existed...like a god who was never created or the idea that the universe's matter has always existed.

No religion or belief clearly and distinctively describes our purpose in life, how we should live our lives, etc. Religion gives tips and guidelines to life but even with those many still feel 'lost'. Individuals will discover the answer of "Why are we here" but we have yet to find the universal reason.

The question of "Where did it all come from?" can theoretically be answered one day...but answering the questions of "Why are we here", "What should I be doing?", "How should I live my life?", "What is right and wrong?" etc. can never 100% be answered...because all that comes down to pure opinion and perspective.

And then there is the question of who is God…and what does he expect of us? With no evidence that any religion is the truth, with society being the very basis of morals and no verifiable evidence that He has ever contacted us directly – How can we know who is really is and what he wants of us? Good thread man, hope we can get a varied response here…I just contributed the Deist take on the matter, which combines theology and science.

Good question, phantum.

One thing I would add is that some might believe the universe was always here. There was no beginning, so no need to ask that question.

When you talk of those who believe in a higher power, you stop at asking "Where did it all [the universe?] come from?" Why not go one step further back and ask "Where did the higher power come from?"

You'll probably get the same response as those who think the universe was, and is, eternal. There was no 'before'.

I'm awake now... first read this thread at four in the morning and it went in one eye and out of the other...



Every so often I ask "where did God come from?", and then "where did whatever came before God come from?". But that makes me

I tend not to think so much about "where did I come from?"... I wonder who/what God is, and what the purpose of our existence is. If I do meet him one day I will be less inclined to ask "how did it all come about?" and more inclined to ask "who are you, and what do you want?"

thanks

here is a question... you said, "no verifiable evidence that He has ever contacted us directly."

what about witness testimony? not just the Christian testimony, but all people who have claimed to experience a Higher power. why isn't that considered evidence?
it's allowed in court and has been used to convict people... so why not as a means to verify the existance of the spiritual realm...

thanks...

that's exactly why i didn't go into that... lol... because we all BELIEVE in something eternal... and for some reason, that seems to be a default belief...
maybe even the subject of another critical thinking post?

the concept of no "before" is a very hard one to grasp... and personally, the only way it makes sense is to look at a perfect circle...
but when it comes to time... it's a little difficult because we define beginnings and endings...

Witness testimony is secondary information. Any personal experience concerning a higher power can only be experienced by that individual and cannot be shared by others... as only he had the experience and we can't know what he heard or felt.

well thaphantum went straight to the root of the problem this time..if we had the answer to this one...

but I think the real problem here is that we find it impossible to understand how could something just "be there" without being created..

so as far as our understanding goes, either a supreme being managed to create itself and then all the rest or the perfect circumstances were there for something to come into existence and evolve acording to scientific laws...

I see prospects for artistic thinking with this thread...it might become a bit poetic

I guess I'm just weird, because I don't grasp the concept of "before". For me "is-ness" is much easier and makes much more sense. Things seem to have a cyclical existence. They don't begin nor do they end, they just change.

it's a great way of thinking, rev r...and I also believe in change and cyclicity....but the thought that it all had to begin somewhere still bugs me

not necessarily true in some cases...

in the Bible, there are accounts of tons of people witnessing acts of God at the same time...
the thing people don't consider when they talk about the Bible is that the Jews were keeping track of their history... but because they were compiled in one place, people think that it is strictly a religious book...
the Bible was written by 40 authors over thousands of years... and that's just the books we have, that were accepted because they were AUTHENTIC...

for instance, the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary, Nicodemus, etc... were left out because they were written too far after those people lived...
same thing with Enoch, Books of Adam and Eve, 12 Patriarchs and a few others...

but we know from the Bible that there were a few other historical books that seem to have been lost... such as, the book of Jasher, Wars of the Lord, and a few others...
had these not been assymbled into what we know today as the Bible, a lot of them would probably be considered historical...

based on that, everyone is doubting the claim of whole civilizations of people... the same can be said for the Mayan civilization...
they mistook Cortez as their God... because their God was a white man that went into the sea and was supposed to return...
so why do we discount events that whole civilizations claim to have witnessed?

where it really gets interesting is that if the Bible was man made (without the influence of God)... did the writer of Exodus get the concept of eternal existance right?
if the Bible was inspired by God... then was He trying to pass us a message about what we are just starting to understand about time?

there are plenty of verses in the Bible where God says He existed from everlasting to everlasting...
but what's more interesting is the name that He gives to moses... I AM...

when you think about that name... it's a profound statement... just for the simple fact that it tells us that wherever God is... He IS... not was, not will be, not came to be...

Nice topic. To be sure, thinking about it logically, there has to be a higher power. But, that higher power doesn't necessarily have to be known. What I mean by that is that it's not necessarily a matter of one religion over another. For all we know, they could all be wrong.

Whole groups of people can believe they've witnessed something that didn't take place in the right circumstances... after all, that's what magicians rely on... the will to believe.

We're not talking about men who were born last week either... we're talking about a whole different time in history. Anything that couldn't be explained was attributed to God or gods. Good grief, even now, with the level of the knowledge we have attained since Jesus supposedly lived, we've got doctors saying God influences the health of their patients because they can't find the cause of a patient's recovery... people will believe anything if they have enough will to.

As is the case with most people, it is very hard for me to grasp the idea of no beginning or end. I think that is mainly because everything seems to be defined by having a beginning and an end. Human life is a prime example. What do you celebrate yearly? Your birthday, the beginning of you. And what is on your gravestone? The date of your death, your end. We define eachother by age which both of these play into. Humans are so set on measuring time because it seems to be the only way to make sense of things. The big bang is another example. The supposed beginning of the universe. We try to measure that because there is a human need to make sense of everything. I suspect that one day, there will be a new way of thinking, a new way of understanding. Perhaps we got our concepts mixed up and are just overthinking some things. Even if we somehow discover that there was no beginning, the question will be replaced with "ok, so what came before that, and that, and that, and that, etc.........."

Very difficult to comprehend, but very easy to understand why that is so. Just take a look around.


Very thought provoking post thaphantum. I like how you relate this concept to a perfect circle.

As I have stated in the past, I work within the Intelligenc/Law Enforcement community and we have found that witnesses are too easily swayed by their own perceptions. You can have 15 differenct witnesses of the same incident and will end up with 15 versions of what happened. Many of them will be completely different. I would not accept witness testimony in matters of religion because too many different religions have witnesses for their particular God/Goddess/Gods and Goddesses. They can't all be the truth.

but what magician... even today... can REALLY be beatin to within an inch of their life... REALLY be pierced through the side... REALLY be crucified and sealed in a tomb... then REALLY get up as if nothing happened? that's just the account of Jesus...

even the best magician can't wipe out the egyptian army with magic tricks... or teach the mayans one of the most advance time keeping systems on the planet... which they claimed to have learned from their God... or what about the fact that many cultures claimed to have witnessed giants building the pyramids? it doesn't make sense that all of these coultures would have one giant mass delusion happen all around the same time period...

maybe the earth has changed from back then to what we know today...



that's an ASSUMPTION on our part that they viewed things like that... i'll give you one example...

the storm on the sea when Jesus was sleep... the disciples woke Him up because they thought they were going to die...
something unnatural was going on, because if you have read the story... you would note that some of these men were fishermen for a living... they pretty much lived on the sea... so whatever was going on was far from normal... and if you look deeper into the story... Jesus rebuked the sea... that is something that is done to spirits... not nature...

and you also have to consider with the knowledge we have now... science's best explanation is that we came from an infinitely dense speck of cosmic dust... that sat for however long... unprovoked... just exploded and made order from complete disorder... which we don't observe today...

you could pile up all the materials to create the empire state building... blow it up as many times as you want... i GUARANTEE you that you will not end up with the empire state building... it just DOESN'T happen... but we are expected to believe that an unguided explosion led to all this...

we are expected to believe that... even though human experience and observation tells us the exact OPPOSITE is true... so what's the difference between what some people believe today... and some people believed back then?

that's very true... but what about when you have someone that is a complete ATHEIST who has an experience that convinces him/her that there is something more to this thing we call life...

i'm not talking about becoming a Christian... but just some event that causes them to change their belief in a higher power?
but what if all the religions have it right?

what if all these gods/goddesses are angels or demons... the reason i pick those two terms is because... in Greek... gods/goddesses are refered to as daemons or daimons... which is the same word translated as demons and gods in the Bible... so i'm just using it as an example...

Christians...
we believe in an all powerful God that created lower level spiritual beings... angels and demons
satan is the ruler of the underworld...

Greeks....
believe that all the lower gods/goddesses sprang forth from the first God... Chaos... and if you notice in Greek mythology... nobody overthrew Chaos...
Hades is the ruler of the underworld...

Norse...
they believe oden is the chief god... but he isn't any more special than the other gods... he is just the leader... but deeper digging reveals the belief in an all powerful God... Al Fader... the creator of all the lower gods...
and even they have their version of the devil... Fenris the wolf... who gets bound in chains and tossed into a pit for 1000 years... before the Al Fader comes and creates a new heaven and new earth...

the list of cultures goes on... but the theme that i've found to be common among all these cultures is that if you really start to study and research... you find the common belief that these lower level gods/goddesses were created by an all powerful God...

i'm actually working on a book on the subject...
and hopefully, maybe it will makes some sense when i finish it... lol...

but my point is... maybe everyone has it all right as far as spiritual experiences go... but maybe where we have it wrong is exactly how we get to heaven... that where the major difference seems to come into play...

And you have evidence to support this Biblical account? Not written testimony, not the accounts of men, but actual proof that would establish these events as fact? Can you please tell me where I can read about this proof, so I may examine it.



Firstly, you yourself said in one thread that people back then would worship anything including rocks and sticks, so why the change of opinion?

Secondly, what is the point in using a text from the Bible to demonstrate that I'm wrong in making assumptions about people back then, when I have already said that I do not believe in the Bible? You're using the contents of a book I think very little of to demonstrate a point to me... that makes no sense.



I know where you stand on evolution. You don't believe in it. You should know by now that I believe in a Creator, so we have that much in common. The difference between us is that I do not believe that the theory of evolution and belief in a creator are mutually exclusive.

how is that possible? i can't give you the accounts of men... so how do you plan to read about it?



i didn't change my opinion... people still worship rocks and sticks... but my point is... not everyone uses that to explain what they don't understand...



that's just one example of the fact that people were smarter than you think... people know the difference between bad weather and something out of the ordinary...

they have found egyptian texts that corraborate what the Bible says about the plagues in egypt... so i'm sure that not everyone was confused... they knew it was out of the ordinary... i'm aware of the fact that you don't believe in the Bible... but you made the statement that people used supernatural explanations to explain what they didn't understand... i was giving you an example that they did understand a lot... you just CHOOSE not to believe it...



actaully... the more you study both ideas... the more they become mutually exclusive...

I said I wanted proof that was not the accounts of men. Let me put it this way, if you tell me that God spoke to you, what differene would that make to me? Should I accept what you say just because you said it? Your statement would not be relevant to me, as only you have experienced it. Your testimony would not affect me. Do you see?



I didn't say that everyone does.



The Bible is a book... fiction as far as I am concerned. You may as well be using Milne's "Winnie-the-Pooh" to demonstrate that there really are talking teddy bears in the world (which there are actually ).



There are Egyptian texts that provide proof that God was responsible for the plagues of Egypt?



Did I say that every event throughout history which could not be explained has been attributed to God or gods?



That is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Belief in a creator does not go hand in hand with belief in the book of Genesis.

mostly becaue i think answer the rest of your questions and comments is a waste of time since i've done so already...

the more you study evolution... you'll see that it doesn't leave room for a creator... it all eventually traces back to the Big Bang and the infinitely dense speck of cosmic dust...
which according to science has always existed in a state of neutrality...

so where does God fit into that?

I don't understand this sentence... it doesn't make sense.



I'm not getting into a discussion about evolution with you... I've been following the other thread and I'm not going there. Life's too short.

I've told you why I don't consider the contents of the Bible to be reliable... let's leave it at that.

Trust me OP, every single person on the planet do NOT ask themself's that question and im sure you will agree if you look around.

i'm shocked at your inability to follow conversation...

i wasn't debating about evolution... i was asking you how a belief in a Creator can go hand in hand with evolution when you study the theory of evolution in depth....

but i guess you have't thought it through that far...

are you saying that you never thought about it? think about that one before you asnwer...

or is it your OPINION that other people have not thought about it?

just because someone doesn't care doesn't mean it doesn't cross their mind occassionally or even just once...

No I never said I never thought about it, but as I said look around. some people are unable to think that (mental ill people) some live in enviroments that makes it less than likely asking that question. but OPINION is a key word here, because thats what you should have added in front of this question of yours, its your opinion that all people asks it.

But look around, you will see plenty of people who are less than likely to have ever asked that question, its pure logic.

that's also an assumption on your part... you assume that those people don't think about things like that...

have you ever asked one?

You wanna go down this road instead of admitting its your opinion that all people ask this question? Don't be silly now

Primitive man would sit and gaze intently into the fires they made.
We think about the who, what, and why of things because people long past strove to give us the ability to make time to idle and ponder.
Given the adage about idle hands and the Devil, why attribute our amazing trait of counter productivity to the Christi god, could just as well have been the work of the other side of that bipolar bit of meme.

Great thread thaphantum. Very interesting topic.




I agree. And they don't even have to be mentally challenged etc. I have personally talked with many people who don't like to think about that sort of thing because they find it too scary. And other people just think about other things, maybe it's just not that big of a deal to them or they choose to ponder other things.

I have to agree with you. My children have never asked me this.

yep, lets go down that road... until you ask those people if they ever thought about it... it remains your OPINION... not a FACT....

but you just admitted that they do think of those things...

in order to find something scary... or complex or no big deal... it still has to enter one's mind...

not yet, but they might at some point in life...

i never gave a definite age at which people start to think of such things... but they will when they progress in school... it's almost impossible not to think of where we come from...

as they get older and face choices of whether to believe in a specific idea, theory, or religion... these thoughts will eventually manifest...

and if you ask someone if they ever thought about it... they could answer, "no i never really thought about it" but at that point, it crosses their mind... even if for a second... and for all we know, they may lay at night and think about it... even if they never say a word...

there are plenty of things i think about that i never tell anyone...

well, I know I have one friend that never thinks about that kind of stuff. I love her dearly, but she never thinks about much except what is right in front of her. She is in effect one of the most shallow people I know. She'll give you the shirt off her back, but thinking about anything even remotely "deep" isn't part of who she is. I've asked her about these kinds of things, and I get this blank look and a "what?" and generally a change of conversation which comes in the form of "you're so weird sometimes" ....

Well yes everybody has thought about it at one point in time but that doesn't mean that they really care about the question or the answer.

If you really think about the question "Where did it all come from" isn't that important to everyday life.

Eventually most people just stop searching for the full answer anyways...most people don't ponder to much on the questions of "Where did God come from" or "Where did the matter from the Big Bang come from". Most people settle on answers like "God did it and God has always existed" or "the Big Bang did it and the matter always existed". The majority of people don't try to understand how something could have always existed.

Somewhere down the line something has always existed...