As I am sure everyone is aware, the Christian God is said to be all powerful and all knowing, the perfect being according to the Bible.

For the purpose of this post I'll just use this definition of free will,
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

However it is here where the problem becomes obvious to me, if God is all knowing, if he is can see all that was, is and will, how can he accomodate choice?

He knows exactly what we are going to do before we are born, before our parents were born etc which makes me ask, why punish non-believers for something they have absolutely no control of.

I guess this has been worded badly, but I hope my point has passed across and a decent discussion will ensue:)

Hmmm...I assume he would have to know what the outcome of everyones choices in life could. Like if a person had to choose between a,b, or c, God would know the outcome of all three choices, but not know which one the person will make. But then again that means God isn't fully all knowing.

God lives in a differant dimension of time where time does not exist . He is not affected by time so in a sense he knows what will happen because it already has happened . It is a somewhat confusing concept to grasp but if you think about it for a while it begins to make sense . God sees the future because to him their is no future or past , just an eternity .

I have trouble with this as well, the only thing that keeps me from throwing up my hands and just giving up on everything is for some reason I've got this blind faith thing going on... I do that alot... I don't know why this chair will hold me, don't know the chemical/physical properties, the math formulas, the geometry, I just sit in it and expect it to hold me.

Will and Destiny... Choice and Fate...

Well, in my head, God knows what we will choose, but it's up to us to choose it.

I struggle with the idea because it seems that God allows people to be born to a life of torment, and then death sometimes violent and terrible, and then hell. Why, if he's IS love, How, how can He possibly do this or allow it or continue it!?

It seems he creates people to torture! But then there's the part that He gave them the chance. He knew what they would do, the choices some people would make, but He Has to give them the chance to make the choice. And they do.

Down to every last rape, murder, torture, abuse... those are choices people make. We're not zombies, we're people that choose to do horrible things sometimes. There's always a choice, it's just that God knew what your choice would be before He said let there be light. It's not your fate/destiny to make that choice, you make the choice when it's time to make the choice... it's just that God already know's what you're going to do.

I still don't understand why He wants us in the first place, every scenario I come up with seems like slavery... but then I'm human and don't understand the divine one bit. I can't attribute what I know of behavior to a being like God. It'd be like an ant trying to figure out how to build and launch a satellite or something.

Love the topic.

In a sense , the resoning behind it is something we as humans simply cannot grasp . You see contradictions because your mind cannot see how things would be in a cercumstance when a being is unaffected by time , so you revert back to the normal reasons .

You seem to forget that god is god . If god knew everything about a moment of time including thoughts in peoples minds , every organisms minds , every location of all peices of matter he would easily be able to tell which outcome will occur as his ability to reason is far greater then ours . I understand your point , its just incorrect . Their is no such thing as linear progression for god , their is no such thing as time , the reason he knows all is because it is so and the time for him is one flash . our lives have in a sense , already happened along with everything else . To god , their is no such thing as a differance between past and present . Your theory on this being we have no choice is not true at all . he can just predict because to him it has already occured . I find it interesting you say you are going to hell through no fault of your own , it almost seems like your rant is stating we are perfect and are not responsible for everything we do . We are , God just knows we will make mistakes because their is no such thing as time . We made the mistakes ourselves , we made the decision ourselfes , and god lets us screw our lives up becaus he want's us to have free will no matter what . Which just leads to more things you will never understand

that may make no sense to you , but it doesn't mean its wrong , you just can't understand it . Every mind has its limits . Before you write your reply remember what einstein once said

-the greatest paradox of all is to think what thought cannot think

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree
I'm going to stand by my opinion that In order for god to be omniscient, our timeline cannot be subject to change that god has no control over, which is what free will is.

as for

God could have made us perfect , but what would the point of that be ? Part of the agreed reasons god made us was to see if a free will being could love him . If we were perfect the entire operation would be totally pointless . On top of that , if we were perfect , we would always obey gods teachings and do everything acording to his will . were is the free will in that ?


As for the rest , probobly best to agree to disagree .

what is the sense in free will ?

You tell me, i'm the one who thinks the bible is a load of poop:)
Otherwise we will go straight back into the prior discussion..

The point is its beyond human comprehension . When trying to see the follies in the bible you must take into account the rest of the bible rather then picking it apart one by one . The bible can only be understood and evaluated with a valid , meaningfull opinion about it if the entire thing is read .

Bathory...for what it's worth: From where I sit, one of you is making sense, the other is making it up as he goes along

As you say, if we're too assume that God truly is all powerful, knows all, sees all, created all, then free will is an illusion. If you already know the outcome of every situation or choice that is ever going to occur, then giving someone the choice in the first place is utterly pointless...your anology with the train track couldn't have put it better.

By the way...didn't take long to see the contradictions, did it? But, as I've said...I'm afraid logical thinking won't work here. Logic has been proven to be no match for 10'000 year old gibberish.

I'll take your Einstein and raise you a Hawkings...

Every so called contradiction of the christian Ive heard of was fake and not fully researched .

As for what you have presented , is just proof of the evolution theory . Did you know that in his final years , Darwin rebuked his own claims and found them false ?

The real point I was making was this thread will go no where . theists claim evolution is folly , and atheists claim religion is folly . Things like this have been debated over and over by experts on the subject on each and every side , they have gone nowhere . Once everything to be said has been said it comes down to opinions rather then logic .

this has become just another "does god exist thread ?" , and everything in here has been said and done somehwere else . Why bother ?

The provided article completely disregarded the fact god is unaffected by time and lives in a differant dimension of existance . Therefore the article is just giberish .


And although the only evidence Darwin converted to christianity on his deathbed is the word of the girl with him at the time , conclusions have been drawn towards the fact that it cannot be dispoven even after countless evolutionists have published books attempting to disprove it .

Bathory, I like you

Unfortunately, you're flogging a dead horse...even though there is so much overwhelming evidence to support our own veiws, evidence that has been investigated, researched, poked, prodded, turned inside out, and examined at every angle...I'm afraid you're never going to disprove religion to a religious person.

You could argue until you're blue in the face...it just doesn't make a difference to them The fact that you're using factual evidence and they're making up everything they say from a badly traslated interpretation of 10'000 year old texts which have already been seen to have a wealth of errors by comparing them to the dead sea scrolls, just doesn't register to them.

Logic doesn't work, because as soon as you start arguing the existance of god in this day and age, with our education system, our knowledge of the universe, and everything mankind has accomplished over the last few generations without even the remotest sign of 'divine intervention', you have quite happily thrown logic out of the window.

I have decided that I believe in the ancients gods of my Piktish ancestors, that they invented to explain why the world was there, why the sun came up, why it rained, what made crops grow etc. etc...the fact that we now know the answers to all of these questions..and that they had nothing whatsoever to do with a divine being...shall in no way prevent me from being hard headed and zealous! Fear me!

but its oh so much fun:)
its like arguing with Beckjord, of course he isn't about to conceed, but its some of the most fun you can have standing up:P

This is not about belief or existance of God. The first post laid the scenerio that there was a God, so what's all this disproving God business doing in here? I was enjoying the first question! Saying there is no God, or there IS a God in this thread is like saying Pie>Cake, or rubber baby buggy bumpers.

Back to supposing there IS a God, and he's all knowing is it possible to have free will.

And then the quotes:

Why is it everyone is refusing to call in my point that god is unaffected by time in their reasoning ? It makes a much bigger differance then you think , as it means everything time could do already happened when god pulled the trigger of life as far as god is concerned .

I don't think anyone's calling it because, to be honest, it's not 'a point' at all...it's just what you happen to believe to be the case based on your interpretation of a mythology that could be interpreted in a billion and one other ways.

What you might ask instead is why, when bathory applied logical thinking to show that your theory doesn't make sense, you chose to ignore logic in favour of pressing your mute point.

Sorry Xeno. You're right in that time makes a difference in the way we think in comparison to how God thinks, but to me that answers more of the How or Why God knows everything. The topic started off assuming God knows everything, so we don't need to consider how or why for this discussion.

The only relevance I can see for this topic is that we can't understand the way God thinks, our logic doesn't apply as nicely as most things we can relate to in our lives.

That's a great topic in its own right. The debate Xeno and Bath are having, to be honest I didn't look at the links because I don't think they relate to the topic at hand. The sources of the facts I'm unsure about so I'm not really going to comment on them. For this topic, since it's assumed there is a God, and we're talking about the traditional christian God then the bible is the only source we can look at to determine free will or fate. The original topic was pretty specific.

I don't want to step on any toes, I'm enjoying this tremendoulsy! And as usual I can be safely ignored.

i believe that the christian view on god was meant to controll the masses...not that thats a bad idea , some people need that.
i believe in the more modern new age theory that god is everything that there is, including yourselves.
in a sense, god is light, light makes energy, and energy makes mass
we are free willed parts of god

You will never be sorry-
for thinking before acting,
for hearing before judging,
for forgiving your enemies,
for being candid and frank,
for helping a fallen brother,
for being honest in business,
for thinking before speaking,
for being loyal to your church,
for standing by your principles,
for stopping your ears to gossip,
for bridling a slanderous tounge,
for harboring only pure thoughts,
for symphathizing with the afflicted,
for being kind and courteous to all.
-Anonoymous

Who are we to question God? Is not His name, and Satan's, known to all men? Is this not evidence to support the TRUTH of good and evil?
We are given choices- Good or evil. Heaven or hell. Me, I'll take the former of these without any doubt.
Seraphina, our greatest enemies are within ourselves- I look at good and evil kinda like a set of scales, and what side you put your foot on is where you are, because they are almost equal forces.
And Seraphina, my point to you- borrowing from Oscar Wilde " It is only the intellectually lost who ever argue."
God Bless All!

And only those with the courage to question have the potential to move forward

So you have to courage to question, great, that implies that you are seeking spiratual enlightment? For it is the only way to move forward-

Don't be absurb Spiritual enlightenment gives you a warm, cozy feeling...then you die

The greatest breakthroughs we've made as a culture have been made by going against the grain...whether against the church, or society's views in general. Rehashing the beliefs of ten thousand years ago which (I know, once again, I'm flogging a dead horse here) were founded on an inability to explain the world around them...every religion there's ever been has been in place to explain what people lacked the knowledge to explain themselves....rehashing that certainly isn't moving forward

Why do you continue to make new threads about the same idea? I bet I can find at least 5 different threads where the same arguments are stated. Keep the same thread going if you like repeating yourselves until you're blue in the face. We've argued to the point of having nothing new to say to each other on this topic. Keep this thread going or let it die, but don't just keep repeating the same thing over and over on different threads. "God exists!" "No, there is no such thing!" "Yes there is!" "You are contradicting yourself!" "No I'm not!" "Change your beliefs!" "No, you change yours!" So on and so forth.

Doh, i accidentally hit back and lost my originally writing so this post will probably be not as good:P

linear time doesn't mean no free will . And only god has no time . You still don't seem to fully grasp the concept .

their is one choice because everything that has happened has already happened and when it came to it we made the decision to make it happen .

it was sarcasm . we already decided this is a pointless thing to babble over as it comes down to opinion in the end of the logic .

not really

Okay, okay, okay...here we go...

If, for the sake of the topic, we're to assume God exists...then therefore, as the creator of the universe and all things, he is the omnipotent, omnipresent, all seeing, all knowing force that he is believed to be.

If this is the case, he has known everything that we will ever do in our lifetimes from the moment he came into existance. He's known he was going to create the human race, and everything we were going to do, before he even created us.

He knew that Lucifer was going to betray him before he created angels, he knew that he was going to murder everyone on the planet with a flood before they even started sinning. He even knew he was going to watch his own son die on a cross before the planet was even there...

So, if this is the case...if god knew all these things millions upon millions of years before they happened...then any offering of choice, or freedom that he has ever made to the human race (the so called 'free will' that you're so fond of claiming he gave us) is worth absolutely nothing...he knows everything we're going to choose to do, one way or the other, and choice is little more than a formality.

If, for a moment, we assume that god does exist, free will is little more than an illusion

..............

(seraphina )

Time to us is simply taken from the rotation of our planet, 24 hours - one day… Time! In the overall sense of the universe and everything, what really is time?

Anyway, if what you say is true, and God knows all, is-all, then this topic is pointless, because what we are to write has already been decided, and whether we agree or not, has been decided. And the final outcome of this discussion has already been played out in Gods mind. So this really isn’t any of our beliefs - how can it be - if everything has already been decided?

That depends, i don't believe in god, so it may be possible for either an undetermined future.

Its a case of, either there is no free will and God is what the bible says it is, or there is free will and god isn't.