I won't be posting in the Conspiracy forum, let alone UM anymore. I use to like coming to the Conspiracy Forum to discuss and debate different topics, but in the past month I've grew more disgusted with every post I read from the regular "debunkers" within the forum. I mean, we are here to discuss and debate things but it makes no logical sense to me to do so if one side is bias in they're thinking, let alone doesnt actually argue but uses many adhominem type attacks in an attempt to discredit the opposing view. The most heated topic by far of the conspiracy forum, is 9/11. We sit here and go back and forth,back and forth, over the same already disproven official story. Debunkers claim we dont have evidence for anything we're saying, yet in ignorance they cling to the fable official story like a 3 year old to his night time blanket. There is a bias, and a hell of a big one present with debunkers. They look at everything which they believe supports they're "theories" yet ignores any and everything which seeks to disprove it or point towards an alternate viewpoint. Currently, 9/11 is getting more media attention from many high profile people as well as having many credible government whistleblowers coming forward against the official account. It is of no benefit to me to come on a forum and debate people who already have preconcieved notions and conclusions as to what happen on 9/11 instead of following the evidence where it leads; away from the official story.

Each time information damning to the debunkers argument is presented, they: ignore it,ridicule and deny it,or simply spew insults, all in hopes that it makes them appear right to those outside of the arguement. Debunkers like Colbert Nation claim if our account of what happen is true why hasnt anyone come forward about the cover up, but what he purposely ignores and denies, is the many government whitleblowers who have came forward to disprove the official account, yet at the end of the day he maintains,

QUOTE

" I believe everything the government tells me; then when they tell me something new i believe that"....colbert nation".

So much for the critical thought he is supposedly claims to exercise..... SunoFone has already long since past, posted an amazing thread full of tons of compiled whistleblowers none of the debunkers want to acknowledge. With all those whitleblowers who have been posted in that thread, debunkers still continue to claim "why hasnt anyone come forward to support the conspiracy"? I hope you see the ignorance in it all, is a turning cog used to to turn they're brains on, perhaps it is a rat running on a wheel to power the light bulb on? It's just ridiculous how debunkers claim, the official story is true and nothing else, while ignoring the cold hard facts and the many "convenient coincidence" surrounding 9/11; PNAC needs an attack to speed up the process of transformation, the hijackers attack on the morning NORARD was having drills but debunkers dont think they had inside knowledge, then there is the london bombings which happened the exact same way, the list goes on.

But inn the days after 9/11, the attacks were used by the Bush Administration as a pretext to get into Iraq and Aftghanistan. Then a year or so later the administration claims " we never said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11" when in actually this is a lie, they did! They consciously linked Saddam,Osama, and Alquida like computers on a network. Then once we actually got in they claim, Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Bull*tihs. What about Project For a New American Century? No debunker cares to talk about that and the astronomical amount of improbable coincidence involved to allow 9/11 to give Pnac actually what they openly called for while maintaining they werent involved. To speed up the process of transformation they needed and event, a catastrophic event like a new pearl harbor, so they can begin launching a war to achieve the goals outlined in PNAC. With reguards to PNAC, if you want us to believe 9/11 wasnt an inside job, your asking us to believe it was a MERE COINCIDENCE that this happened even though PNAC needed it to happen to push the go button on they're objectives. You debunkers are absolutely stupid; *note*that needed to be said. The explosions happening within the WTC werent from bombs or secondary devices, but from ANYTHING but that. Debunkers quickly turn on the blinders and ignore. Anyway, in closing I'm out. I wont be making anymore post because quite frankly it's futile to fight a battle against ignorance, you'll never win because it runs too deep! So it was fun while it lasted guys, but my real message towards 9/11 will be now shown in the public, out in the open, and not over a message board. Cya guys..........

Cry more please.

Thanks for the compliment. Glad to see you leaving. Have a good trip.

Well said urban I find it pointless to debate anything concerning 911 on this forum most people would just rather the fairy tale it helps them sleep better at night it's too much for there little minds to handle just let them pray to there baby Jesus and maybe everything will turn out for the best . Remember ignorance is such wonderful bliss it takes a very strong independent mind to deal with the raw evidence of 911 most people just choose not to think about it . Thats why they have a government and media they so desperately need to control them and tell them how to live and think . For myself I've given up on these fake politicians years ago now I try to educate myself and everyone I trully care about which is mostly everyone and try to at least get them to ask a question . And maybe get some REAl answers.

Screw these corporate masters.

So NOW you're Really going to do something besides post on internet forums. Well many on the CT side have been claiming "undeniable proof" of an inside job for a while now so if you guys really are going to start doing something (else) we'll see how long it takes for the one whom you believe commited this act to be brought to justice.

I have brought this "bizarre coincident" up a couple of times and it seems to be a thread killer. I imagine because there simply is no explanation for it in-line with the OT other than an act of God. I guess thats what divides us, the debunkers deal in faith and the rest of us want proof.

Anyone care to critique these figures? -



Its from Infowars.com, I know the debunkers will dissmiss the site as nonsense rather than face facts. Well, heres your chance to put your money where your mouth is. I am not going to claim the above numbers are accurate nor have I checked their math. All you have to do is get that number down to something believable like the chances of winning the multi-state MegaMillions lottery (1 in 175,711,536) and share your calculations and formula.

Thanks -

Everything doesn't always go your way. No matter how much evidence you are putting out there, there will always be somebody on the other side who is ready to debunk what you post. You just have to find better ways of presenting it, or not post at all on the subject. If you get flustered easily, thats just how it is.

The other week I stumbled across a mate of mine from the UK at a shopping centre - what were the odds of us being on an escalator in the shopping centre at the very same time? He'd come all the way over from the UK on a business trip, with his wife, and they just happened to be there at the same time (even though I rarely go there myself). My maths is pretty sh**, but I reckon the odds of that happening are in the region of 10 trillion to one, give or take a few million*.

My point is, those stats you quoted don't really mean anything - it's proof of nothing. Verifiable evidence of the 9/11 attacks being an "inside job" would be something like, oh, I don't know, credible current/former intelligence or military officers claiming that the CIA/DIA did it or classified papers detailing the operation, not meaningless stats.

*Note the sarcasm

QUOTE

credible current/former intelligence or military officers claiming that the CIA/DIA did it or classified papers detailing the operation, not meaningless stats

. Whistle-blowers

Let me know after you run into him in the same place, same time by chance 2 more times.

It would be more accurate if you had decided to go to that exact spot (like a drill) to meet your friend (without plans to meet him or knowledge of his whereabouts) and then had actualy run into him. Do that 3 simultaneous times. It could happen*



Not only is it noted, its pretty much all I expected. Thank you for living up to my expectations*

You don't get it, do you - those stats are meaningless. They're evidence only that conincidences happen - one such coincidence would be what happened to me at that shopping centre.

I don't see any credible current/former intelligence or military officers, in that thread, listed as whistle-blowers.

I know thats why I said if you planned to meet your friend in a specific spot without knowing where he was or making plans with him, and then actualy ran into him three simultaneous times just as you had planned, "could happen".

Anyway, I just got hungery for a steak and there just happened to be a steak in my refrigerator, what a coincident.

Basicaly what you are saying is if there was a guy who had writen in his diary that he wanted to kill his wife with an axe on the 4th of july in his office, so he could re-marry. Then on the 4th of July she turned up dead in his office and had been killed with an axe, you would give him the benefit of the doubt? Ok. Even if his previous wife had also been murderd and he had similar ties to her murder as well? Even if he was the local Sheriff and said investigating his wifes murder would be a "ludacris diversion"? Would you still be willing to consider it all a coincident and let him then marry your daughter, sister or mother in good faith? Good luck with that.

I wont voche of the statistics I posted but generaly speaking "stats" are not meaningless. The odds of winning the Lottery are 1 in 175,711,536. Now, you could win the lottery the first time you played it. However, the law of averages would dictate that you would have to play it again some 175,711,535 times to win it a second time. If "stats" are really meaningless as you claim, would you be willing to wager an even bet against someone if you only had a 1:1,000,000 odds of winning? If the "stats" are meaningless then why not go for broke? You could win.

Alot of debunkers bring up occam's razor. I guess in this case they are willing to ignor it and accept a one in a trillion chance over a 1:1 chance (an intentional coincident). So be it.

cues Kenny Roger's "The Gambler" and dedicates it to all the OTers out there................




.

How can the stats in-question have any relevane to the 9/11 conspiracy theory discussion? They merely highlight how often coincidences (however improbable) occur - does our justice system go around arresting and prosecuting people based solely on stats? Are sentances passed solely on stats presented by the defence/prosecution? Of course not.

Try coming up with verifiable evidence (if you can find any) to back these hairbrained theories.

LOL nice try. First off NO ONE ever claimed it was PROOF. SECONDLY THEY ARE CALLED "THEORIES" FOR A REASON. (Lets shut down all the discusions at UM that lack the "verifiable evidence" as you demand, ROFL). lol Thirdly, statistical probability is far from being "hairbrained", I can only assume you have no idea how often it is used. Finaly, your attempt to dissmis this concept because it doesn't meet standard police procedure is like hiding under your covers from the boogeyman.

Ever hear of "Probable cause"?



A degree of certainty like a 1 to a trillion chance it was just a coincident? Add the 911 attacks also coinciding with simular drills and the chance gets even smaller. Add that the mastermind of the 7/7 attacks, Haroon Rashid Aswat, is a KNOWN British Intelligence Asset and the chances of a coincident get even smaller. How much probable cause would you need?

We have probable cause. We want the opportunity to meet the burden of proof. The US investigation basicaly only dealt with the dynamics of the collapses. There was NO investigation into 7/7. Like I said, we want proof, you people deal in faith. Which makes you demanding proof from us all that more ridiculus. If you really want proof, then you are on the wrong side of the debate.

bye....missing you already....

I guess the point I was trying to make, was that if the 9/11 attacks were orchestratated by any group other than Al Qaeda (e.g. the US government), there'd be verifiable proof of it (as there's verifiable proof of Al Qaeda's planning and execution of the attacks).

Logically, then, if there was verifiable evidence of, say, a government conspiracy and subsequent cover-up, why would the 9/11 conspiracy theory camp have to resort to putting forward meaningless stats as "evidence"?



That claim's based solely on what on terrorism expert has said. No other terrorism experts have come out to back up what he's said and neither have any current/former intelligence officers done the same. His claim cannot, therefore, be verified.

So you think if the government did it, that they would just leave "verifiable proof" laying around out in the open to expose them selves? Not exactly a criminal mastermind are you?

Who said Al Qaeda didnt do it? I think you greatly under estimate what how block ops work.



I think it has to do with why Urban started this thread. The debunkers refuse to face any of the evidence. You ask for whistle blowers, then dismiss all of them as either uncredible or for being the "only" one saying it. Do you really think all of these people are just making stuff up? And again, if you have faith that the "bizzare coincident" that happened on 911, and then again on 7/7 was just a coincident, then you believe in the most statisticaly amazing event that has probably ever happening just by chance. You act as if you require "verifiable proof" but what do you have that you can verify? What the government has told you? You don't base your belifes on "verifiable proof", you base them on the statistical un-probability of the 2 largest terror attacks in the war on terrorism to have both coincided with drills of the same (almost precisely on 7/7) type. And on faith in the people who told you what happened, the same people who innocence is confirmed to you by the "meaningless" 1 in a trillion chance. Reguardless of the evidence or amount of evidence that CTers put forth, none of the debunkers seem to even question the OT in the slightest. Dosen't it at all suprise you how much stuff has come into question? There are questions surrounding nearly every aspect of the attacks. Even meny of the 911 families still have questions. Yet not a single question from the debunkers. It must take alot of faith on the part of the debunkers.

http://www.alternet.org/story/12536/

Is this not what you are doing here, completely disregarding any evidence that contradicts your views and insulting anyone you disagree with ?


All you are doing here is exactly what you are accusing the 'debunkers' of doing.

If you expect to absolutely convince everyone else that you are correct then thats not going to happen. 9/11 is a sensitive topic and people are going to feel very strongly about their views. You can put forward an arguement to support what you believe happened but people are entitled to disagree, instead of universally condemning 'debunkers' as 'absolutely stupid' why not try and figure out how you can improve your side of the debate ?

Dramatic farewell threads are generally despised on internet forums, there is nothing to be gained from creating a new topic here just to announce that you are leaving because some people won't accept your views on 9/11.