Interesting that you brought the size into it Shadow. Perhaps the group backed down because they were frightened at you standing up to him because he was much bigger than you? Maybe?


Being 5 11 no one ever lets me back down, they just hand me a bat and hide behind the trees.

I just think the main problem to this story is that it was not you're house or the Christian guy's house it was someone else's. It is down to the host of the meal to say something if it bothers them not another guest.

that's a sign of something who is overly embarassed... or abused.

Judging from all you've said.. I'd pick the latter...

I agree!!!! When you are a guest you can't do stuff like this.

Of course if you were gonna go for it you shoulda just jumped on the table and started potting the tea cups out of the way and flinging the plates of food around and screaming "Jesus has a hold of me and he won't let go....>!>!>>!>" while you twitched frantically.

And then left never to return......

BUT, being the host, she has an obligation to all her guests, not just to one.

And if you had read all of Shadow's posts, you would have known that the hostess *DID* say something. They just all backed down when the guy pull his stunt anyways.

Son i agree, shadow did approach ahead of time and try to resolve this to create diversity and comfort for all the guests...i don't find the fellow a monster or anything but he didn't seem open to diversity and sometimes you have to speak loud and clear to remind one to be considerate of the whole...I see that shadow was very kind in intent and willing to stand up for all the guests to be fair to all...i think she should be commended for caring enought to do this , willing to rock the boat for a greater vision.... .

I couldn't ask the other christian... she's his wife. And she always agrees with him.

Yes, we all knew he wasn't impressed, but he'd agreed to go with the small silence.



He'd agreed not to. Nobody thought he was going to say a prayer. We asked him quite some time before the meal - we generally sit about for some time before eating, or help with the preparation. He had time to digest the request. He'd been talking to everyone before we sat down, asking how we all were. It wasn't until we sat down that his mood changed again.



Nobody was mean about it. He was asked politely to drop the vocal prayer in favour of an alternative that everyone could participate in. He had no reason to believe that anyone was jerking his chain. We've had situations in the past where one of us was asked to do one thing or another, and nobody reacted the way he did.

Yup you cant do stuff like that when you are a guest even if you are asked too.




NO DON'T DO THAT!!!! I once tried that and was asked to return wearing only a leopard skin male thong and a cowboy hat.........................................(shudders)...............................

after getting a better picture of the event now, i think that the actions of your 'friends' was deplorable, but somewhat understandable. im with you tho, i would have said something, started to eat, refused to stop eating aplologising that i was very hungry and my food was getting cold, and not interested in his dialogue with the divine.
I can see why his wife was silent, no doubt she knew better than to show him up in public...no doubt he had hammered that point home previously.
Its probably the case that everyone was genuinely intimidated by this man, the picture you give is of a bully who becomes hysterical, and agressive bordering on the violent.
I feel sorry for his wife to some extent, and for the rest for not having the guts to back you up. but they got their just deserts having to endure his ranting all night, you got to go home
Finally i think its outrageous that you have been treated by the group in this way. They dont seem to be very nice. your losing nothing by not attending in future, youve saved yourself an uncomfortable 4 nights a year....i wonder how many who continue to attend will envy your absence....It probably wont be long before the group finally breaks down, people making excuses why they cant attend etc.
just like to add my support for this thread, it has provoked much interest and discussion.

sorry when i end up trying to reply to a post as soon as I press the add reply button i end up seeing that 20 million replies have been posted again in that very short time lol. Still it is still not down to the guests to pipe up if the guy is not listening to the host then the host should ask the person to leave and if they refuse phone the police. If I was the host I would have tried to solve the problem peacefully but if the guy was a JERK I would ask him to leave and if he refused if i could I would throw them out if they were built like a brick house and their little finger could crush me with the slightest gesture I would phone the police to remove him and not let the guests get involved. I would then never throw dinner parties again if this sort of thing is going to crop up all the time i would just cook me something to eat and come on here to see exactly the same thing

What greater vision? As I understand it, these dinners had been going on for a while, at other people's houses and no one had felt strongly enough to say anything to him. He already had his momentum and the snowball was allowed, by the group, to get to that point.

It's up to the host or hostess to dictate what goes on in their house. If I were the hostess I would have had a private conversation with him before that day and made it clear that there would be a moment of silence before the meal...case closed.

That was neither the time or the place to take a stand and it is totally to the hostess.

This reminds me of the morality debate.


Just for fun lets rank who you think is the most wrong.


1. The group for not having a spine

2. The guest who spoke up for pushing it out of the box when it was evident that it wasn't going as smoothly as expected.

3. The Host for not being in control of her space.

4. The guy for being a big fat hairy Jerk.

I guess to me it goes by standards and based on his behavior he was right up there with the neandethals. Its up to the group as a whole to set the standard and they failed miserably.

Then when he started to do his song and dance... you let him and next meeting, if everyone agrees, he doesn't get invited. Period. There is no reason to shake everyone up, especially when you aren't in your own home.

The group for not having a spine in the very beginning.

I hadn't really though about that... that the size difference betweem this chp and me might have caused their reaction. I know he intimidates them... I just hadn't thought about his size in relation to mine in that way. I don't tend to think about my size when I get into a spot, but yes, he is very much bigger than me... vertically and horizontally. The hostess is smaller than me... only about 5'... he makes her look like a dwarf.

for me if 1, 3, and 4 wernt an issue then 2 wouldnt have come about.
the guy is a jerk, the group are wet, and the hostess was in a difficult position...her religion has guidelines that she no doubt honours regarding guests; and it seems she was unprepared for the belligerence of this nob.
if i have to choose then 4 the guy knows he is taking the proverbial, and enjoys it.

true there is no right or wrong its jsut a thread with different persepctives....its understandable on both sides yet shadow was trying to be all inclusive....i personally would appreciate anyone who took the time to ask the guests how they felt and go as far as to talk with the guy to try to compromise...i see her as very thoughtful...I don't see him as the bad guy though.... he too felt he was perfectly within his rights, we are moving towards a more diverse society, , with happy holidays etc....to find a way to compromise with prayer. isn't unreasonable IMO .. not all pray and it is nice to know that their are those that think about this....but this is only one way to look at it ....

i was recently at a event with a bunch of christian ladys and they just assumed i was christian... also, this is common...i choose to participate in the meal prayer but i knew that if i asked to do a moment of silence instead it would of been no problem,...

Woah Sheri you need to edit that so I can read it.

It's starting to sound like this man has mental problems....or is just a bully, who scared the other guests into fussing around him.

4, 3, 1, 2

They guy was asked prior to the dinner not to say a vocal prayer. He even agreed not to, and accepted the alternative "moment of silcence. Then when it came to be dinner time, he said the prayer anyways. Now, it is up to the hostess, who had confronted the guy prior to dinner to remind him of his promise, yet she did not. And no one but Shadow had a spine to mention it.

And like I had previously said.. the moment that jerk opened his mouth to say a prayer, I would have done the same to my gods... "Oh, you didn't like that I vocaly prayed to my gods while you vocaly prayed to yours? Guess we should have stuck with the moment of silence then, huh?"

I honestly don't see where Shadow is at fault here. She stood up for something that they had all agreed apon prior. It's not her fault everyone else has jelly spines or the Hostess allowing someone to go back on his word.

If someone prayed for me to turn into a christian all the time I wouldnt like it either.

The more I try to imagine myself in this type of situation the more sure I am of what my reaction would be.

In the described scenario, if I had been the hostess, I would have cleared my throat, stood up and said, "Excuse me, *glare quickly at him* we will now have a moment of silent prayer."

After everything that had transpired, I would be ready for that type of reaction from a person with his history.

edit:If you laugh, you've never seen my evil eye...

Absolutely

Firstly, I think it sounds extremely inconsiderate of the Christian to continue his prayers aloud, especially when he was asked not to and do it in silence. If you're not in the company of other Christians, then keep prayers silent and meditative (unless they are in your home, in which case they should accept your wish to pray).

Second, I don't think this is a case of Christianity being the "default religion" as your comment suggested, Shadow Hill. The Christian wanted to pray aloud, and obviously felt it important to do so. Even with organising beforehand that there would be silence, the guy still prayed. At this point, it's easier to simply allow him to continue than it is to make a big issue of it. Your friend's agreeing/allowing him to pray had more to do with wanting to keep the peace than with anything else, and not (imo) a matter of Christianity trumping other faiths. The same (I think) would happen if it were the Muslims who wanted to pray (though you were at the Muslim's house, so they may be entitled to pray if it is their wish, but if they were at another house, then this would apply).

I daresay that the matter would have been dealt with after the dinner party, when it couldn't intrude further with the night's proceedings. I would think the Christian would (at the very least) receive some heated emails about his dishonesty in agreeing not to pray but then doing so anyway, about respecting the wishes of the group (about respect in general, for that matter), and admonishments to not do so in the future.

Shadow Hill - Is it possible that the timing you chose to confront this matter could have been handled better? Please note that in saying this I'm not taking away from the wrongdoing of the Christian - it was disrespectful of him, and he should not have done it. However, the matter could have been let pass that night and handled afterwards, maybe.

Your thoughts?

Regards, PA

One of the group mentioned that we couldn't all say prayers aloud at the same time so a silent one would be better... the christian chap said he couldn't bow his head for a non-christian blessing. From that I'm guessing that a suggestion that any non-christian said a prayer wouldn't have gone down too well with him.



In the past, when there was any issue, it was mentioned at the dinner and discussed as a group. It's the only time we all see each other at the same time. On each occasion in the past, when one of us has done or said something that may have upset another member, it has been discussed openly. The prayer issue didn't seem any different to me, so I raised it when we were all together. But having said that, the christian chap had never really been asked to refrain from doing anything before. In all the years we've been having these dinners, it was usually someone else who was asked to do or not do something. There's never been any long term ill feeling. Usually the person who's offended or who did the offending has a few glasses of wine and everything looks peachy all of a sudden. It was a shock that the outcome was different this time. It was like having dinner with complete strangers.

Hmm...

I think you'd be better off if you didn't bother going to the next dinner,Shadow.If no one else was willing to stand up to him alongside you,then they are pretty worthless.

This guy showed total disrespect to everyone that was at the dinner.If he wanted to pray at the dinner,he could've easily done so silently...instead of agreeing to a moment of silence beforehand and then going against it.The number one rule of dinner parties with a mixed group is that you do not do what you normally do when you are at someone else's place.Since he was at a Muslim's home...he should've been respectful of the hostess's wishes and done what had been agreed upon.When a party is at his house he can do as he wishes,and those attending would have to respect him by saying "Amen" at the end of his prayer or something.Hell,you could just mouth the word as others say it...that way the twit wouldn't know you hadn't actually vocalized it.

But,all in all,this guy has apparently been disrespectful to all of the group for quite a while.If he can't handle following the wishes of the person who's house he's at...then he should be the one not invited back.

If these people were really upset about him saying prayer,then one or more of them are going to have to say something eventually...now that you have done so.Especially if you do not go to the next party or two.If these people really like you,they'll miss you...and begin to realize that not only they have let this idiot roll all over them...but that he is also the reason you aren't attending the dinners anymore.That just might get several others to start standing up to him.

Oh...and if I had been in your place...when he stated that he had Jesus on his side,I would've said something along the lines of "If he's all you've got...you're going to want to find a better "second"!" ( duelling term).

I am proud of you though...you had the spine to speak up for most of the group (even though they didn't stand up to him with you).If the idiot can't be respectful when he's at someone else's home...he shouldn't be invited to be there.

This whole argument to from my point of view has nothing to do with religion (as Chaos, Truethat, Michelle, and PA, and myself, have pointed out--a nice mix of Atheist AND Christian folks) it has everything to do with manners. Yes, the dork at the table insisted on saying something out loud, that was stupid, wrong and ignorant, HOWEVER, you dont' shake up everyone's evening when everyone else at the party already knows he's an ignorant pig. You quitely move on and take care of the obvious problem LONG before the next party.

I guess this hits home for me, my own mother was raised in Southern Mississippi, where manners are parmount, I was also raised in that tradition. Those that know me here know full well that my own mother is no Christian (not even close). She would tell you EXACTLY the same thing. Move on, don't mess up everyone's evening, handle it for the next party. Easy, clean, simple.

Hhe.. and I was raised that you keep your word and promise. If you break it.. then you get called on it. The idiot broke his word and promise to do the silence thing, so he lost all his protection with the "manners" of not being called out on it.

I think what is needed is for all of you to meet up and not for lunch may I add and discuss this issue and come up with some ground rules, If no one can follow those set ground rules then they get banned from attending any further dinner's, This way if someone at the party decided to be disrespectful to the other guests and host and does something that offends the others then you just tell the person ( after the dinner ) that they will not be welcome to any future dinners because of their disrespectful behaviour. This way if the guy does decide to play that stunt again he will have to deal with the consequence afterwards for his actions.




(also)



Make sure you are going to get the full support of the other members if you do come up with some ground rules like that.

I got a message on my voicemail first thing this morning. The christian chap wanted to speak to me and said he was going to 'phone back. It was difficult to tell, from the tone in his voice, what the call was about. Anyway, I wanted to speak to one of the others from the group before talking to that chap, to get their perspective on what went wrong and why it went wrong. It all seemed pretty clear to me, but I wanted to make sure that I hadn't misunderstood what I'd been asked to do - well, it's always possible isn't it.

I called one member in particular because he works in dispute resolution, so I thought he'd probably give the most balanced picture of what happened. His version of events was pretty much the same as mine, so I asked him what had happened to everyone when the guy refused to not pray aloud. He said that they did feel bad for dropping me in it, but reminded me that we live in a christian country. He said that if we lived in a muslim country we'd have had to put up with a muslim prayer. He said it couldn't have escaped my notice that when I was at school a christian prayer was said during assembly before we were sent off to classes. He asked me if anyone had ever openly objected to that. I work at home, but he said he would bet money that at my husband's office, when some tragedy happens, the office staff say a christian prayer before the minute silence. He asked if anyone had ever openly objected to that. He said that the dinner party was no different, and that the error came not in backing down at the table, but in asking the man not to say a christian prayer aloud in the first place. He also told me that the chap had been asked not to do it on one occasion before - something I didn't know - that the request had been made by the host of the party a few days before we were due to meet, and that the christian had flatly refused to attend the dinner if those present were going to exhibit such religious intolerance, so he'd been asked to go ahead and pray that time too. It would have been nice if they'd told me that a few nights back. I mentioned chaoszerg's suggestion that we all meet up to discuss a way forward, but he told me that it had already been resolved. After my departure, the christian chap had ranted for quite some time, but had eventually calmed down, and the group had discussed how to deal with the next meal. They've agreed that the christian chap can say his prayer aloud, and that everyone will participate, but that if anyone feels the need to say thanks in their own way after that they can sit in silence for a moment while the others go ahead and begin the meal. The group decided that this was a fair compromise. I'm not sure they understand the meaning of the word "compromise"

Anyway, the christian chap did 'phone me, at midday. The call started out well... he said that things should never have escalated the way they did, and that it was in both our interests to resolve any issues between us - I agreed. But he then went on to say that he'd requested that the others at the party did not blame me entirely for what had happened, because they had all had some small part to play in what took place, even his wife who had sat by and allowed everyone to show him such disrespect. He told me that he's always overlooked my flaws in the past because he thought I showed promise, and that, as a very tolerant person, he had wanted to look past my bad points and only see my good ones. He then said that he had resolved things with the group, and that he was now ready to forgive me.

I think the group has evolved over the years, as people have grown (or stood still), but I don't think I've evolved in the same direction.

edited: for punctuation.

Sorry, Shadow, but it seems your friends are still allowing a bully (whether he is consciously so or not) to subjugate them and they have now come upon an answer that makes them feel less like cowards. Yes, this is a nation based on values that support Christianity, but the idea that this is the only reason why they don't object is weak since a true Christian would be respectful of others beliefs ("love your neighbor as yourself"). It's becoming more obvious that this guy is a thoughtless bully. I bet you if even someone he considers a good Christian told him he was being rude he would dismiss it, because it's not about being a faithful Christian with him, it's about getting his way.

However, since your friends have decided they will allow themselves to be bullied, I would suggest that in order for you not to also become a bully, you need to abide by whatever the host of the next party wants. However, when it's your time to be the host, you can let everyone know ahead of time that you want all of them to attend and look forward to hosting all of them, and in that same communication set up the way things will be done, stress that there will not be a spoken prayer that there will be a moment of silent prayer/reflection prior to the dinner. If you really want to have him attend you will probably have to make a special effort to get him to come, and stress to him that he is welcome and expected, but that there will be no spoken prayer.

I agree that the one chap's explanation is only part of the reason for them backing down, but it is still part of the reason nonetheless. It is true that nobody stands up and objects to christian prayers being spoken aloud, in school or in the office. My secondary school teacher banned all religious prayers and replaced them with general well wishes for the future, but he got a lot of bad press after doing so. There are some things that are just an accepted part of life, and people just ignore them in order not to have to question why they're just accepted in the first place.

Religion has an odd effect on people. I have to admit that I behave differently around the clergy... I have caught myself doing it and I don't know why. My mum commented, when I asked her why I am different around priests, that when I was younger I spent a lot of time in Italy, and it wasn't uncommon in the village my grandmother came from for an elderly or pregnant woman to give up her seat to a priest in a train. That sort of behaviour is contagious. People behave differently around the religious.

You say that a true christian would be respectful of others' beliefs, but in the real world I've only ever met two christians who are consistently respectful of them. And unfortunately this group doesn't seem to have met any - or at least none that they know of. Everyone considers this bully to be "different", they allow him those differences, and if he's rude they put it down to those differences... it's as though being religious bestows certain privileges that nobody dare question. It's kind of like old age... people behave differently around the elderly too, even if they're rotten old b*ggers.



You're probably right.



I shan't be attending another party. This time it's a vocal prayer, next time it will be something else, and before we know where we are we'll be jumping through hoops for this guy. He's already questioned the wisdom of allowing discussion of anything sexual over dinner - including references to the bodily parts of the rich and famous. And with religion, politics, philosophy, work and children already banned as topics of discussion, there won't be anything left to talk about.

Yep can't even talk about the weather because it will evolve into global warming. Can't talk about cars because that'll bring up gas prices. In order to have a discussion that is "respectful" to everyone's views the entire dinner must be an hour and a half moment of silence.

I've never been at a dinner where religious issues caused a problem where religion was accepted as a topic for discussion. It's only ever happened at gatherings where the subject was banned. Hubbie and I used to meet up with a christian couple and their little boy every week some years back, and religion was usually discussed, along with politics, sex (the little boy was only a baby so it wasn't a problem), and all manner of things you're not supposed to address in polite conversation. Maybe we just weren't very polite.

You can guarantee that when a subject is frowned upon it is virtually impossible to avoid it.

We generally avoid religion at dinners around my house (mainly because my M-I-L asks really silly questions about Buddhism) but politics is fair game.

How magnanimous of him.

I wouldn't go back, either. They say they resolved the issue? It wasn't resolved, it basically stated that he was right and got his way, every one else was wrong. Obviously these people are sheep. Again, you are way better off without them. Sometimes people come into our lives for a reason, we learn from our relationship from them. It seems YOU have outgrown them.

My M-I-L asks silly questions... but not just about Buddhism.

When this group first started meeting there were no such rules concerning what could and couldn't be discussed. We'd been studying The Enlightenment (that seems ironic now), so our first gatherings were mostly to discuss what we'd learned on the course. Eventually a discussion about politics led to one about the separation of church and state - the Christian objected to the content as he felt it was critical of his belief system. We tried politics a few more times... ended up discussing subjects that the Christian chap felt encouraged disparaging remarks regarding his faith. We started talking about work. The Christian chap said something about a Jewish woman he worked with - made a remark in bad taste - and one of the members was married to a Jewish man... they ended up falling out for half an hour (until half a bottle of red wine kicked in), so he stopped talking about work. Children... those without children objected to baby talk, and children were off the menu.

Actually, the children thing was interesting. The whole group agreed not to talk about babies because there were non-parents in the group... but they have such a problem dealing with the whole religious thing.

Now it's sex. A comment regarding Keanu Reeves and his lovely little bum was considered to be in bad taste at our last dinner because thoughts of bottoms ruin the appetite. Also, such chit chat encourages promiscuity - although I'm not sure of the relevance of that when we're all over thirty and married or divorced. And the lady who loves Mr Reeves' bum doesn't really believe she'll ever get within spitting distance of it, so her daydreams aren't likely to impact upon her everyday life.

It sucks being a de-facto expert.

Sounds to me that this group (with the exception of you) is possessed of very thin skin.

Their skin grew thin. It thinned with age. Mine seems to get thicker - I am very thick.

It's starting to look like this guy is nothing more than an immature,ignorant,hypocritical idiot who always wants his way.

You're definitely better off not going back to the dinners if the remaining members of the group are willing to knuckle under to this idiot.Sorry...but your friend in "dispute resolution" is a little off the mark.Just because Christianity may be the dominant religion of the country doesn't mean that everyone must bow to the wishes of every Christian.

Forget these people.They have allowed themselves to become subservient to this moron's wishes...and in doing so have lost their self-respect.They are no longer worth your time.

Like I said in my earlier post though...the other members of the group may come around eventually and realize that they should not be allowing this guy to walk all over them,no matter what reasons they've been using to rationalize their allowing him to do so.

Doesn't that say it all? Only HIS time will be treated with respectful patience....if anyone else wants the groups time, too bad, they can do it while the others start the meal!

He is exhibiting classic 'alpha male' behavior. He appears to be using his religion as a dominance tool. Others here have said that a 'true' christian would have been more respectful to ALL.



Who would have wanted to be in her shoes when they got home....poor woman probably has to listen to him pontificating
on about it a lot.


I've followed this thread with interest, Shadow Hill......do keep us up to date with any more developments!

What an egotistical ass.

Yeah, don't deal with them again. Cripes, they just bent over to let that guy have his way with them... Not cool at all.

I would say it's more like he is exhibiting classic "Alpha Dork" behavior.

I hope they do stand up for themselves. They used to be so enthusiastic, open minded and adventurous... probably sounds hard to believe that now. I wonder if they remember why we started having the dinners in the first place.



When he refered to his wife he said he had had strong words with her. I imagine she didn't get to say very much, if anything, in response.

I hope that they do stand up for themselves.The bullying has to stop...and the only way it will is if they take a stand against it as a group.This guy is completely disrespectful to all of them...and should be shown the door and never invited back.

As for his wife...she probably couldn't get a word in while he was ranting about her not standing up in his defense.The poor woman is probably browbeaten by this twit a lot.

Yep.. she's abused. Makes me think even less of this jerk. And gods damned that this is a "family friendly" forums. *snerks* There are some.. "Stron words" I have for him.

Even if Jesus was anywhere near him.. He'd be reaching over and giving that "good christian" a dope slap upside the head.

Indeed.

I heartily agree with most of what's been said. It's a sort of religious bullying, really.

But the whole issue is just sad, sad, sad. Next time anyone of feels like hollering about Christians & Muslims, Shia & Sunni, Israeli & Palestinians, etc, etc, keeping on ripping off each other's heads, we should consider that us 'moderate folks' are not even capable of findind a peaceful consensus about prayers over dinner-table.

Just a thought...

What does America being a christian country have to do with anything? Other people have other religions.