i know. we must remember it is in the constant surrendering of the "inconsequential things" that we surrender everything. A great deal of research has been done on this, and its power is far more reaching than most recognize.

Gesundheit Hyperactive.

What's wrong with mutual respect?

what indeed.

now where is it?

No such thing...

Drama queen much? LOL

no drama, true. that is true.

With the exception of this one guy, no one else thought it was important enough to make a big deal out of it until this incident. They were showing respect. Maybe if it had been approached in a different way the prayer guy wouldn't have reacted as he did.

Letting your own religion be known is not oppression. I get absolute respect from my Christian friends.

Out of curiousity, do you non-Christians make as big a deal about Christian oppression in your everyday lives as you do on here? To be honest, if you do, it would make me avoid you in real life like I do the majority of the time on UM.

Keep in mind I am not a Christian, I just don't like to hear preaching from either side.

My only point is, pick your battles wisely. There's a time and place for everything. Unfortunately that party was not the time or place for that particular battle. It doesn't mean you have to give up the battle, it just means that you need to pick your battle ground with more care.

Exactly!^

respect and submission are different.

to answer your question about christian oppression; does it sound like I make a deal out of christian oppression? I make no "deal" about christian oppression, as christians have no ability to oppress me.

My post to true was not directed at christianity or the particular christian in the story. It was directed at the dynamics of group submission.

I didn't think I had everyone on my side. I asked each person how they felt about the prayer before the meal, because it made me uncomfortable. The others expressed a greater deal of discomfort than I did to them. It was the hostess' suggestion that we approach the chap and ask that the prayer be avoided - I suggested a silence instead because that didn't remove his ability to pray.

It wasn't a case of taking sides. We all had a right at that table to feel comfortable, and he could have prayed silently - why did he need to involve anyone else in his prayer if the prayer itself was what meant most to him?

He was aware that the hostess requested that nobody pray aloud, but did so all the same.

How on earth does that translate into me wanting people to be "on my side"?

If he was at my house I would have kicked him out.

That's what I don't understand. Why is it submission? Was anyone else denied a chance to pray in their own way? Do they even normally even pray before a meal, whatever religion they are. I know a lot of Christians that don't. Even when I was Christian it made me a little uncomfotable when someone prayed before a meal, because it wasn't my families custom.

Yea I know.........especially in a room filled with all people from all sorts....it was a good mix.........pitty someone had to spoil it

Shadow none of us were there and it sounds like you were dealing with a lot of different personalities.

However it sounds to me like people were humoring you. It probably certainly bothered them enough to have a fair rant about it but honestly if you weren't willing to have said something then none of them would have done anything.

It might have been that they were just riled for the moment. Your taking a stand was about control and group dynamics.

I think it is noble that you stood up for what you believed in on the one hand but on the other it seems completely over the top and unnecessary.

I hate situations like this. The guy was a rude jerk in a sense.



I agree with Michelle as well. I see a lot of people on this site ranting about being mistreated at the hands of Christians and as an atheist I never see this stuff in real life but what I do see in my real life are people being jerks to Christians and then blaming them for the fall out.

Ex. MY hubby was at work and his co worker who is a born again came in sorta down in the dumps and he asked her what was up and she said she was having problems and asked him to say a prayer for her.

Well he rolled his eyes at her and said "What good is that going to do, give me a break!"

I would have just said OK. I don't understand the point in insisting on pointing out that the other person's beliefs are ridiculous? I don't get the need to do this.

But he felt she was "Pushing him to accept her beliefs"

I believe in God...but never pray before a meal...ever

The way I look at it is...I work for the cash that pays for the grub...I cook it...therefore I dont feel I need to thank God for it!!!

the submission in the story is the people backing off of confronting the loudest of the group after expressing discontent privately.

They surrendered to the demands based on several factors, which would include group history and his response.

Have you read what I've written so far? If you had you'd see that I did not argue with the man. He became aggressive and told me I was talking nonsense when I asked that we all be allowed to say thanks quietly - something he'd already agreed to do. He knew the hostess had asked that we all remain silent. I asked that the beliefs of all present be respected - that's all. He began flapping and insisting that I be silenced.



I'm not an atheist or agnostic. How is saying "could we all be allowed to say thank you in our own way" antagonistic?



Why should he be allowed to do what he felt best doing when others present were made uncomfortable by it - including the woman who cooked the meal he was going to eat. A christian man visits a muslim woman's home and everyone present is of differing beliefs, but he should be allowed to say a christian prayer aloud, despite the fact that he wouldn't tolerate anyone else saying one... why?




Good grief. Nobody tried to stop him praying... but you don't have to pray aloud. What makes you think that I just wanted to be right? I just wanted not to have to engage in a prayer to Jesus... one that went on for ages at every other meal and included hopes for the conversion of all present.



It sounds like someone other than me? I think not.

If they felt that strongly about it they should have nipped it in the bud at the very beginning.

But people do that all the time.

It also speaks of the need for the "hero sacrifice" You know the deal. Push someone to the front and encourage them to rant for you and then the guy turns around and everyone's run off.

Then they act like you are a cad.

But deep inside everyone respects you for it even if they do fear you......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yya8bUTnF-Y

I agree my freind i rather enjoy being unpopular its not crowded....I can't just tow the mark.....

I'm very proud of you sahdow it takes courage to challenge the status quo, I'd love you on my team any day...(((HUGS))) are you a momma??? If so your kids are lucky to have you..kids love the parent who takes a stand....**giggles**

I originally asked the others how they felt because I simply felt uneasy about the prayer. The others in the group seemed to be more bothered by it than I had expected them to. I couldn't see the point in them talking about him behind his back - which was apparently what some of them had done in the past - rather than just suggesting the silence instead of the prayer.

I do not believe they were just a bit miffed and went along with me. They pushed me to speak, and then backed out when he became aggressive. They know what I'm like... they knew that if they asked me to speak then I would, and I trusted them to not pretend they hadn't asked after I spoke.

If you are going to stand up to someone at least have the conviction to follow through on your own. You "tried" to stop him from praying outloud.

Who are you to decide how one should pray? If that was me I'd come late to miss the prayer. I wouldn't have gone around behind the guy's back rousing everyone to attention.

I would have approached the guy myself and said "Hey John, would you mind just saying a neutral prayer during dinner?"


I do understand to some degree where you are coming from but the bottom line is what MisMell's and Michelle are saying. Pick your battles.

This sounds ICKY to me and if I was at the dinner I would have thought the both of you were rude.

I don't know though, because I wasn't there, but based on what you are describing you are the only one who REALLY felt it was a big enough deal to say something about it.

No... I have no kids. I have six rats though, and I'm their momma.

I saw that shadow your blog , interesting a chick who loves rats, i understand they are quite smart and great pets, is this true?? rats/babys works for me...LOL

I don't know why the rest of you had to feel uncomfortable like I said you did not have to take part you could have just sat their silent and let them finish their prayer out of respect and happily ate away. You have to understand that to SOME and I repeat SOME Christians it is very important to do stuff like that just as important as breathing.




In my opinion and not to be rude in anyway but their was no real need for you to do that and start asking people if it made them feel uncomfortable because it was only going to lead to trouble or people talking behind the Christians back.



Which he was entitled too. Because that is part of his belief if he was trying to cram it down your neck and telling you that you have to pray then I can understand you getting wound up but it was no big deal because it was a prayer something you did not have to take part off.

.

you did not have to rise to it unless like I said the person was trying to make you pray by force but it does not look that way.



Lol I probably would have said the same thing if I was in his shoes. It was a prayer and you became riled up and bothered by it. It was not like he or they were forcing you to do it you could have just stayed silent through it and waited for it to finish then ate. Instead you decided to let it bother you then you began to try and find out if the others were as bothered by it as you was , then tried to suggest to the guy to keep quiet and do it silently which is rude and nasty even though you might not have meant it that way. It was just a prayer.



He's right in a way you let it bother you and you then seeked out others who might have been bothered by it then you disrupted the dinner by complaining and objecting too it when it was not even worth the bother. If the guy was preaching on about how you are going to burn in hell and blah blah blah then yeah say something but it was just a prayer not a conversion attempt or you are a heretic deal.



Well the guy would have to just suck it up on that not everyone believes in Jesus so boo hoo for him.



I have to agree with you both, you are entitled you your belief but the fact is the guy did not seem like he was trying to convert you or give a lecture on how you will burn in hell for not believing in jesus he was just saying a harmless prayer not smacking you with a bible and calling you a heretic it was a prayer that is all. You have to see it was actually you who caused the trouble by letting the prayer ruffle your feathers when it seemed to be just a harmless prayer before eating a meal. You did not have to take part in it.




Lol you are in a way.


Sorry if this seemed like I was telling you off or coming across as nasty I'm not honestly.

I agree.

but how people think about how they should act and how they do act very often are quite different.

As mismels said, "pick your battles carefully". Unfortunately people don't tend to pick their battles, but rather get drawn into them. Few understand the art of war.


For example, lets extrapolate one scenario based on the story of this thread.

meal 1: guy says "grace", something to the tune of "we are thankful for the feast placed before us"
nobody has anything to object to with this, and all goes smoothly.
meal 2: guy says the same thing, but adds in the "amen"
now lets say one of the members of the party is particularily sensitive and does not like this, but sees no sign of discontent in the others, so lets it go.
meal 3: the prayer changes to "thank the lord for the feast...., amen"
while some at the table may not like this, they rationalize they have tolerated the prayers so far, and that little difference is "nothing".
meal 4:
the prayer becomes a full denominational prayer.
now everybody at the table feels privately that the prayer does not speak to them, but because people do not like to seem inconsistant, they resist the urge to say something now after allowing all the other prayers to be said. they also fail to question if others feel the same for this reason.
meal 5:
full on high energy born-again prayer where the leader asks the members to call out something like "praise to jesus".
again, because of the desire to belong, and the desire to appear consistant, people tend to not voice opposition. but in this case one does!

we know what happens then....

I did arrive late for the last two dinners. He waited for me. He wouldn't start until everyone was present.



He refused to.



How is it rude to act on instructions given by the hostess herself?



No, I was the only one who said anything about it at the table. He'd already been approached prior to the meal and had been told that everyone felt uncomfortable with the prayer to Jesus because we weren't all christians. He'd agreed, albeit reluctantly, to drop the prayer. He then waited until everyone was seated and then began his prayer aloud.

I don't believe I felt any stronger about the matter than anyone else. I think the only difference between me and the rest of the group is that I did what I was asked to do and the rest of them figured I'd done it so they didn't need to.

Dealing with domineering people in a group situation...is difficult...they kind of put you in a no win situation. You either upset the general group dynamic by speaking up or you upset yourself by keeping quiet.

Without the back-up you lost the power struggle....but you can be sure that the incident has made it's mark on the group and I wouldn't be surprised if a dinner or three down the line the whole dynamic will change...he might stop going...or others will stop going...or the group might stop completely. Or change into a group you wouldn't want to be part of.

Maybe so, hyper...from what I've seen the average person is pretty consistant, without any devious motivations.

Well then why didn't anyone back you up?


Why didn't the hostess say "Hey John I asked Shadow to speak to you because we've all sorta had it with the praying?"


I think the difference in opinion here is pretty much based on your perspective. It seems to me that you truly believe the guy was a pushy brute trying to convert you .

But to some of us here, he was just an overzealous believer, quite easy to ignore really.

And based on the reaction of the rest of your guests, it doesn't quite match up with what your perspective was.


I mean if everyone was so upset by this guy then I could understand them sitting there in silence taken aback. But for them to take his side it does seem like people were sort of humoring you.

Then again, as I've said, we weren't there. So we have no way of really knowing.

To me you were over the top because of your animosity towards religious people.

It reminds me of the story of the two lesbians at IHOP being accused of practically having sex in the booth and being asked to leave.

To a lesbian it probably wouldn't be that big of a deal even if they were all over each other. AND if you went around asking the dining room if people felt like they were over the top, probably a lot of people would say "OH YEAH! THEY WERE CRAZY" but only a person who truly was offended by the lesbians would approach them. And 9 times out of 10 that person would be a homophobe, someone who hates homosexuals because they are offended and afraid of them.

Sorry but that sorta sounds like your reaction to the guy as well.

You do have to take part when the man sits there and waits for every single person to say amen before he'll let you eat.



I asked them because I wanted to know how they felt. They'd always looked uncomfortable, and some had made faces in the past. I thought it was best to get things out in the open. What's the point in having friends if you can't be honest around them?



When I say he prepared himself... I mean he prepared himself for doing something that he knew would be considered rude. It was visible on his face. He intended to show everyone that he wouldn't be told what to do, regardless of whose house he was in.



I haven't indicated much concerning the content of his prayer... that's my fault. His prayers in the beginning had begun pretty innocently... thank you for the meal, for our good health, for whot's his name's new job, etc. They then turned into pleas to Jesus that those who had their eyes closed would see the light. The last dinner we attended he went on for so long that the soup went cold.

I had a similar situation, not about religion, but still, everyone was complaining about this one teacher. They would rant and rave in the girls washroom about him. They told me if I said something, they would back me up. I said something. When they were approached, they all denied complaining and said they didn't know what I was talking about. Some people can't stand up for themselves, but sometimes it's more than that; even thought they feel put upon, they don't want that person to look down upon them, especially if that person seems to have any power in a group. Being a pacifist is great and all, but there are times to stand up for yourself. That being said, I personally would have either stopped going to the group long before this if it bothered me so badly, or called a group meeting. If everyone was so diverse in their beliefs, no on person should put his/her beliefs above everyone else's. In a group meeting, maybe each host would be expected to "lead" the others in how they wanted to begin the meal. This would not only allow for the friends to draw closer from learning new things about each other, but tolerance would have been promoted for all beliefs.

Because he's a condescending man who always gets the last word. We'd all seen him in action before... he'd just never been in action against one of us before. The moment he turned red everyone became nervous. He's not a small man, or a quiet one.



She'd already said she'd had enough of it. He agreed to drop it, but went ahead anyway. Once he was angry everyone invested everything in calming him down. I doubt that anyone present thought he would react the way he did.



Where are you getting this from? Of course they were shocked. But their primary concern was calming him down once he started shouting. They would have agreed to him dancing naked on the table if that had been what it took to quieten him down.



My animosity towards religious people? Where do you get this stuff from?

glorybee that SO sucks. I know how that feels. I've had this happen to me more times than I can imagine.

Its so annoying because you are absolutely floored at the reactions of the people after you have gotten involved.

However, its because we tend to take it more seriously than the people intended. And because of this our approach is pretty firm. Not the "oh btw you are offending us all" but a firm decision to approach and not to back down because you are standing up for the group.

I guess you'll have more force if you feel like you are defending others.


This is one of the things I have finally learned in my life to stop doing. If it offends them, let them open their mouths.

Well what was so offensive about it? What was the "touchy" aspect? It sure as hell wasn't the religion to the others, but the domination of time.

Because you don't agree with his religion you developed the animosity about the praying no? Going so far as to say he wouldn't "allow" you to eat until you said Amen.

Did he handcuff your hands? Pick up the spoon and eat.

Anyway I don't see why you posted this if you just want everyone to agree with you. Then you should have blogged it.

Final answer from me? You made a big deal out of it because of the religious nature of the issue. You must have been at least a little over the top for everyone to have felt it would have been better for you to leave. And my most bottom line....why would you be friends with these people anyway???


Good luck in working this out! Cheers.

Yup, the only way that I get in anyones face now is to protect my baby. She was being bullied at school, and I went and found every parent of that group and asked them if their child had said anything about my daughter being mean. They said no, so I said well, yours has been. It's been straightened out. Don't mess with the momma!

So hyperactives ananysis was spot on then!

If this was a one off meal....it wouldn't have mattered...but to be honest...it would seriously get on my nerves if someone
acted like they were some kind of self appointed priest.... you can give thanks without bringing religion into it.

Oh yeah it does help to have the little ones to defend. CAPTAIN MAH MEEEEEEEE!!

I find it interesting that so many of the posts here seem to hold Shadow responsible for this incident, and seem to be either excusing or ignoring what this guy did. From what you have just posted Shadow, it seems this guy is used to bullying people because of his size, not because he's a Christian, but because he's big and belligerent. I'm not saying he's necessarily a bully, but I have noticed that some big people sort of get used to getting their way. Sometimes they are not even be aware they do that because they have gotten so used to it. Yes, maybe you should have just sat since you're actions may have caused your hosts some discomfort, but I still think the issue here has more to do with how this guy is just used to getting his way.

None of us were there...but it's like Shadow Hill felt that she had the green light to be mommy and speak up for the group...but daddy threw a complete wobbler..got upset and everyone got scared.

If he does that then just blatantly eat without saying amen and then when he pipes up to cry about it just ignore him then it is he who is disrupting the meal by complaining




I agree being honest with friends is good but sometimes it's best to keep things to yourself so that you don't ruin friendships. The only thing I can think of is meeting up one day to discuss the situation and come to some sort of agreement and if none of you can then don't have meals together.



Then it should have been pointed out after the meal might I add lol that he would no longer be welcome if he was going to try and force people to take part in his prayer and prevent you from eating until you say Amen.





Yes I agree that is annoying and then I myself would have probably said something if it was my own home but if it is someone else's then it is best to just bite you're lip it is not you're place to say something if it is not you're own home, it is again down to the host if they are offended by it themselves.


The point is really is that you were a guest and this guy was a guest. The host or hostess should have been the one to pipe up and not have you do it for them.

What makes you say it wasn't the religious aspect which bothered the others? He was praying that atheists present would see the light... they didn't much care for it.



The last time anyone started eating before they'd said amen he insisted they finish the prayer correctly before anyone continue, out of respect. Everyone went along with it out of respect. He did not return that respect.



I don't expect everyone to agree with me. It was the behaviour of the group I hoped to discuss... their u-turn was shocking for me. The things they said about this man were not pleasant, they gained nothing by backing down because, according to the hostess, he ranted for the rest of the evening, and they will face the exact same problem at their next meeting.



I asked, calmly, that we all be allowed to sit in silence, and then told the man, when he asked why I wouldn't pray to Jesus, that I didn't believe in him. If that is over the top them I am completely guilty.



I am not any longer. One of the things which surprised me most was how little I actually knew them. The hostess said, when she asked me to think about what I'd done, "we all told you it would end badly". Well, no, they didn't... they were too busy talking about how small he made them feel to do that. But if she can lie blatantly to my face she can sure as hell lie to herself and everyone else for that matter.

Oh it hasn't been overlooked at all. You can see it being addressed in the nuances of the discussion. That the guy was a jerk. But you have to pick your battles. I guess a few people have been down this path themselves, myself included and it wakes you up to the reality of people.

I would wager that in the future were Shadow to be on the listening end of a story like this, she'd understand our perspectives as well.

The real loss in the scenario wasn't the bully and Shadow but the rest of the somewhat normal folks and Shadow.

The guy being a big jerk is just a day in the world of reality.

That's too bad. I say you are better off without them. Whenever someone talks behind someone else's back, it always makes me wonder what they say about me. My motto is: if you can say it behind my back, you can say it to my face. I stand by that, if I am mad enough to say something to anyone else, you can bet your boots I will say it to you.

Ok Shadow let's look at this:



Ok, you knew BEFORE dinner that he wasn't impressed. You also only asked the non-Christians, perhaps soliciting another Christian guest would have helped smooth the issue over with him BEFORE dinner.


You KNEW he was not impressed, and you could have guessed he was going to say that prayer anyway. You put him on the defensive by asking him so close to dinner not to say his prayer. While you may have been thinking for a while about your dislike of his prayer, you have to understand that this came out of NOWHERE for him--no one had objected before, why now? He may have thought you were jerking his chain!



Yes, they were with you when they thought maybe he'd go for it without a problem, but you yourself said he was less than impressed and that should have been a red flag to you that this wasn't going to die quietly. You should have had the forsight to know that he was going to go on the defensive and you should not have "objected" and "refused" as you stated above. There's a time and a place to object and refuse, and that wasn't it. That's why your friends turncoated. To them, what was happening at the dinner table was a whole lot MORE uncomfortable than a silly prayer. I probably would have too.

I'm all for upsetting the apple cart, really I am, but not in those kinds of social situations because as you've found out... NO one benefits... everyone loses.

That's it as well MissMels everyone loses. Oh well I guess as you get older it makes more sense when you lose your DavidBowiesque power mantra......


sigh.....


I miss my DavidBowiesque power mantra.....

He is used to getting his way with everything. I suppose this aspect of his character was accepted because he was part of the original group. I have to say, though, that he was not so bad when we were all doing the course together. He was pushy, yes, but he seemed to know where to draw the line.

I think that his aggressive nature makes people feel small. Well, standing next to him most people are small.

His wife is quite the opposite. She's smaller than me (I'm 5'4"), she's very quiet, and I can't imagine her raising her voice at anyone. She sat there silently the whole time this thing was going on, as though she was somewhere else.

from what I gathered about this man (I could be wrong), having had that mentioned, he would not have let it go even if Shadow had stayed. If she had not said anything again after he started the prayer, he would have lorded it over her. I have met people like this, and you give them an inch, they do take the proverbial mile. It's an unfortunate situation. Shadow, you will just have to accept it as a learning experience and grow from it. And try to feel liberated from the anxiety you must have felt every time you got ready to go to one of these meals. You don't have to worry about it anymore.