I went to a dinner party a few nights back... I went, but did not get my dinner.

Years ago I attended a course, and a group of the students took to meeting four times a year when the course ended... we've been having quarterly dinner parties ever since. The group is a mixed bunch... two christians, one lapsed catholic, one Deist (me), three muslims, and the remaining eight are a mixture of atheists and persons of no fixed religion. Every time we sit down to eat the one christian (male in his forties, husband of the other christian) says a prayer, to Jesus. Every time this happens the rest of us fidget about and look uncomfortable.

A comment on a thread here at the forum was stuck in my head when I attended the dinner... basically that people shouldn't discuss religion at the dinner table. And yet there we were, facing a non-religious dinner which began with a prayer. I approached each of the non-christian members of the group and asked if they were uncomfortable about the prayer, and they all agreed that they were, so we decided to approach the christian chap and ask that we all take part in a small silence instead of a prayer, to permit him to say a silent prayer to his god and to permit everyone else to give thanks for the meal in their own personal way. Well, he was not impressed.

As we sat down, he prepared himself, watched everyone get comfortable, and then began his prayer... which I objected to. He asked why I was so determined to disrupt the party with my nonsense - I replied that I would not pray to Jesus because I did not believe in him. At this, he shot to his feet and accused me of being disrespectful. Those who had agreed that the prayer made them uncomfortable transformed into turncoats, and began suggesting we go ahead with the prayer after all. I refused to.

During the following ten minutes the christian chap informed me that I was ignorant and impolite, that I had been responsible for the increasingly hostile scene, and that my insistence that I did not believe in Jesus was taken by him as a personal insult. I explained that I was entitled to my own beliefs, and was informed that I was correct but that I should leave such things at home and not go about offending people with them. The group buckled and the christian chap was asked to calm down and say his prayer. I walked out.

What has vexed me no end is that I have been blamed for the bad feeling, for having beliefs contrary to the christian chap's and requesting that those beliefs be respected. I rang the hostess yesterday morning, and she told me that it is never a good idea to discuss religion at the dinner table... the very same comment which inspired my refusal to pray in the first place.

That chap's parting shot to me as I left was "I have Jesus on my side" accompanied by a very smug grin, which made me want to thump him.

How, in a group made up of people with such differing beliefs, can christianity be the default religion? Why was the christian chap's belief system the only one which was considered deserving of respect?

What puzzles me isn't this chap's belief that he was entitled to special consideration... it's no surprise, he's a pompous a*se. But why did the others go along with him? I have done the same thing for years. Why do we not want to rock the boat?

Whose house was it?

Good for you boldly refusing what he boldly presumed. If prayer before a meal was so important to him, he could have said it for his own benefit instead of implying everyone should tolerate his intrusion. The turncoats you mention are a lesson to you. It shows you that there is a difference between claiming to have character, and proving it.

Take the lesson for all that it was worth, because those that do not fight, even by passive resistance, to keep their identity and defend their right not to be intruded upon by someone possessed of an arrogance and sense of entitlement, but rather fight to be intruded upon by what they claim offends them, later, are pathetic.

That's the same sense of entitlement that demands prayer in public school. Intolerance at it's boldest measure,because if one believes in prayer they don't have to make a public spectacle, to have a private moment with their god. Freedom means being free of religious presumptions and intrusion.

I'm proud of you. I would have asked, when he jumped to his feet, why doesn't his faith tolerate others not wanting to participate in it?! Then I would have gone elsewhere for a meal, not commanded by a zealot.

From what you describe this was a display of a very disrespectful attitude, but not on your side. Obviously, if these dinners had occurred before and this guy had prayed before each of these dinners and no one had said anything, I can see why he would think it was OK, but if this time he was asked to just allow a moment of silence and agreed and then went ahead and disregarded the group's request and prayed out loud, then he was very disrespectful. I think most of us (Christians) are very aware that not everyone is a Christian and we don't try to push ourselves on others like that. If I'm at a meal with just Christians then we will give thanks as a group, but if we are a mixed group, or if we are not sure, then I just pray quietly because I feel I need to give thanks, but I won't force it. I think the rest of your friends are floor mats, not disrespectful, but also not respectful, if they were respectful they should have reminded this guy that there are people of other beliefs and their beliefs should be respected.

The hostess is muslim. Each dinner party is held at a different home, so it was her turn. I have been told to calm down, think about what I did, and 'phone back if I feel I am ready to rejoin the group. They can go whistle.

Good for you. It sounds like the intimidation and ostracizing until you comply, tactics that are being employed now. That is even more pathetic but at least you know the poor character that attends the group as a consensus. They're not your allied associates in any respect, if they can't stand against what they complain about, in this person, when one of their number happens to have the guts to speak what they're thinking.

One would think the zealot should calm down. Or better yet, watch him squirm if every theist began the dinner with their faiths style of prayer and when it came to the Atheists, they'd lead off the meal by digging in.

As a course of respect, if any prayer was said before the dinner it should have been in the faith of the hostess (Islam) as it was in her home. At the very least she had final say over whether or not the Christian guy could offer his prayer aloud. Unfortunately you both disrespected her home with the outburst. So an apology to her is in order.

Now for the "political" aspect. As the subject of religion is now a hot button issue (not to mention a potential social weapon) in the group dynamic, it would be of benefit to establish a rule concerning the pre-meal "ritual". That is if you decide to rejoin the group.

MissManners says:

I think if the Hostess, a muslim woman you said, was also uncomfortable about this situation, she should have alerted him before the party that this time there was going to be a moment of silence rather than a vocal prayer. That puts the ball in his court. The invitation could have read: "prior to our meal, we will observe a moment of silence instead of a vocal prayer out of respect for all members of our group".

Or, if you knew that he always does this and no one has complained in the past, you could have dropped a line to the entire group days prior to the dinner saying that you would prefer a moment of silence before dinner rather than a vocal prayer. (e-mail isn't a bad way to do that, you get everyone's replies).

Either way, I think it should have been handled days prior to the dinner, and if it wasn't, no one should have said anything, but remembered that this is something that needs to be handled long before the next dinner party.

I'm a firm believer in keeping the peace in social situations and that confrontations like this can be avoided long before they happen. One prayer at that specific dinner wasn't going to kill anyone. You might have been uncomfortable while it was happening, but it would have soon been forgotten. Confronting him at the party was a recipe for a spoiled evening for everyone.

In short, while he IS a dunderhead, he felt ambushed and reacted that way.

Everyone acted badly. And rev is right, the hostess is owed an apology based on what you said in your original post.

wow, shadow, you brought up a great point, few want to rock the boat, i think what you did takes incredible courage, being unpopular is very difficult for many.....

I think to people get so freaked out about being the 'one' to start something , when in actaulity disagreement never has to be ugly and i see what you did as movement towards true diversity, instead of just going along, how is it keeping the peace by discounting all others POV's..??....

I felt to you tryed to be condsiderate of all before the party, it shows how much relgioun has been preached this is the only one and he is reflecting that....this happens i'm afraid alot i have attended many things over the years where i have left for jsut these reasons....Religon isn't appropriate for all of my social situations, unless i am at your church......LOL

what cam e out of it for you shadow???

I would have chucked the christian guy out who had NO respect for the muslims and the diest atheists ect...........I would have taken the christian guy..by the scruff o the neck and be gone with him

then sat down at the table............and said..everyone..pray if you want to...I say -- Rub a dub dub..thanks for the grub...LMAO

No seruously he should have been shown the door and told to keep his ignorance outside

I dont believe in praying before i eat

I mean I worked for the cash................I paid for the darn food.............I cooked it...............or got KFC to LMAO.........so WHY should I pray for thanks??

I should just thank ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There was no outburst on my side. The group agreed that we would not have a prayer, and that nobody would participate in a vocal one. The only one who got heated was the christian chap, who ended up shouting at me and appealing for intervention from the group to have me silenced because I asked that all present should be entitled to say thanks in their own way. I was acting in accordance with the hostess' wishes... it's hardly my fault that when push came to shove she forgot all about her request that everyone not take part in the vocal prayer.

Then he owes the apology, no biggie.

It's sad that no one takes authority in their own house.

And... the fast answer is if you'd settled this prior to the party and everyone was crystal clear that there would be no vocal prayer and he did it anyway... you sit through it quietly, then bingo... for the next party, he doesn't receive an invitation. Simple, clean, no one is offended but the offender.

My guess is that if he's this offensive about a simple prayer and that pig headed, no one really liked him much anyway and it's probably no great loss.

*snicker* and I was thinking that the fast answer would be to put a potato in his tailpipe during my smoke break.

Bwahaha, but you have to be careful that the potato doesn't shoot out the tail pipe and kill the neighbors dog... that could ruin your night too. haha

I am used to it. I find that being unwilling to just drop in line tends to make you very unpopular... I get a lot of "can't you just do it for a quiet life?"



Well, I have reached the conclusion that the risk in rocking the boat is that you may get thrown overboard, but I would rather float about in my little lifejacket alone than party on the Big Ship Hypocrisy. I can swim, so I won't sink.

I dont really have anything original to add, i think the replies have all been valid and thoughtful.
perhaps an apology to the hostess might break some ice, though i understand that you may not want to because of the apparent spinelessness of the group. I think most groups act in a similar manner in similar conditions though, feeling its best not to rock the boat. a consensus agreement should be sought before the next dinner if you fancy attending, the rule suggested above to follow the lead of the host/ess is the best.
If you attend again and the dude insists on acting in an egregious manner, imposing his ritual on others, it might show tolerance and character to let him continue in his conceit, whilst making seditious funny faces, and rolling of the eyes to entertain those casting their eyes about uncomfortably. All the better if he catches you because he is then forced to either keep the peace, or make another outburst. All he seems to require is that you 'endure' the ritual, non participation shouldnt be a problem.
Perhaps you shouldnt let him drive you away from the group, im sure the folk have qualities that drew you to them in the first place, and im sure that they would feel their meetings less colourfull without your attendance.
I hope this all goes well for you and you reconcile yourself to the group. Take satisfaction that you have the gumption to speak out when others are silent.

Yeah! Not to mention how the dog would feel. Now , going through the rest of it's life nicknamed by the other dogs, as Tater! ("They call me tater salad!" ~cough~)


Wonderful idea, but not always as clean as it sounds on paper. The offender, knowing the regular schedule of the meals, would in all likelihood show up at the next house hosting the dinner. Then what? Those that didn't have the courage to set down the agreed upon rules before this night shadow mentions, stand up and refuse him access? Or do they tell him , again, no prayer at the table!? And if he insists, as he's already done (the shadow story) what next? Ban him? Then it becomes a matter of religious discrimination. And while he has no weight in a private citizens gathering on private property, he could potentially make a big enough stink to make it so that people just stop the dinner's all together so he has nothing to rant about because the gathering doesn't occur anymore, where dinner and prayer , are at issue.

I've experienced the likes of this one guy. It's interesting they'll scream religious discrimination, when people stand their ground and refuse to be intimidated by the religious. But let the non-religious or differently religious stand for what they believe in and that same personality as this man, will scream for censure or call names so as to levy intimidation! Which is what this was. He was clearly trying to intimidate the mutual accord everyone had prior to the dinner, agreed would not be a dinner led by prayer. No one should have to quietly suffer through what someone else believes they have a right to impose. Tolerance is more than a word. Sometimes it means one has to tolerate others not wanting to hear them preach , speak or pray about or to, their god. There's nothing wrong with that.

Here's an example.

I have a group of married friends (I think myself and one other chap are the only unmarried ones in our circle) and very few of us have children. Of the 8 couples, only one has had children and even wants them.

We did decide to throw a little baby shower for this gal and her husband. Because the vast majority of the folks in attendance aren't wild about kids the invitation read:

"Upon arrival to the party, the mother's car trunk (boot) will be open. Please place your gift in the trunk of her car"

Now, there were several people who really wanted to see what she recieved for gifts and see her open the gift that they brought. However, the hostess was very opposed to this. So, everyone put their gifts in her car trunk and those that wanted to see what she received followed her home. Those that didn't want to see or didn't care, remained at the party eating drinking and being merry.

The hostess was also the same woman who said that when that baby was born, she didn't want to see the mother breast feeding anywhere around her. So when the next party invitation went out by another friend for New Years, the invitation read "Breastfeeding mothers welcome" ... she got over her adversion really quick and showed up for the party and had a jolly time.

Problem solved. The issue was taken care of long before the party. Anyone (including the mother) who insisted that she open gifts at the party would not have been invited to the next one.

As a group, you simply switch the next location without telling him or plan to go out to dinner that night then resume the schedule.

If he finds a way to show up... you have a bigger problem, he's a nutcase and needs to be dealt with MUCH differently.

I don't think anyone expected him to take it quite the way he did. He's always been a bit of a know-it-all and tends to like to have the last word, but he's never shouted at anyone before. We all expected him to be reasonable... nobody was asking him not to pray after all... just to do it in silence.

When he threatened to leave, the others all persuaded him not to and encouraged him to pray. When he indicated that he couldn't be in the same room as me, the group practically begged him to say his prayer and stay for the meal. When I got up and left one of the group said "well, perhaps it's for the best... give him a chance to calm down".

Everyone believed that my leaving was the only way to appease the big bully. I'm just not sure what they gained by giving in to him.

eh screw it. when they have their little dinners you can fly over and have a beer with me...your treat of course.

Sounds good to me... I hope you like pizza.

^ as above, sod it, seems like they're happy to be bullied. I would apologise to the hostess and just leave it at that, i wouldnt look forward to another invite because he may well insist you are left out, if you do get one tho go to it and pull faces when he's pontificating

pepperoni, beef, olives, and green peppers

Why didnt he notice no one else prayed before?

I wouldn't apologize to anyone. The hostess allowed herself to be intimidated by an intimidating zealot in her own house. And the mob mentality surrendered their objection to a bullies tactics, when one among them stood up to the bully, so they could be bullied and then attempted to intimidate and demean the only one among them that had the guts to object to the disrespect afforded by one person.

Sod off is right! You're better off knowing who doesn't have your back. If they won't stand against a zealot, even when they object personally, they shall stand against nothing more intimidating , should it come to call. I have no respect for cowards. They tend to disrupt healthy digestion for lack of guts.

millitant...

Damn! You must have read my tattoo.

Vegetarian for me please... with extra tomato sauce.



Because they all bowed their heads and said amen at the end. They all went along with it out of respect for his faith... whilst ignoring the fact that he demonstrated no respect for theirs.



Yes indeed.

Did it hurt getting it there?


Vegetarian it is Shadow, I'm flexible.

Was his wife on his side?

Well, a good majority of people perfer to keep the peace UNTIL they have the opportunity to change things in a quieter and more individual manner than to make an issue of things.

The incident showed one of two possibilities.

1. No one really cared about his little prayer after all regardless of what they said initially and were willing to let it go on--it wasn't that important to them.

2. They were willing to keep the peace this one time until they could settle it in a more quiet and gentle way.

When he launched into his whirlwind, you could have stood up and said, "Excuse me please." And remove yourself. Next time it happens, maybe someone else will follow your lead and remove themselves as well. Eventually, he might be the only one sitting at the table. OR you'll find that no one else shares your sentiment, or doesn't care, and you will be the only one stepping out for a moment. No harm, no foul, everyone knows your stance and can choose to be with you or not.

Then when you return you sit down with a smile and say "So did anyone catch the footie game last night? Go Man-U. Gee, the roast squab looks DELICIOUS."

and you are supposed to be miss manners. there are 3 things you don't talk about in polite society religion, politics, and sports. Love you anyway.

there are two thoughts that come to mine immediately wrt the OP:

one regards "he with the largest bark". Many, many people are poor at being assertive, and as a result of an inability to stand their ground, they back off (taught being showing aggression is wrong).

two is the power of the status quo. within the group, he got his way before, and that creates an inertia within the group for him to get his way again (I will elaborate on this if asked for). In this particular case, we can also examine the impact of the status quo position of christianity within the society in question.

Ok, that hurt. hahahaha

Religion, Politics and MAN-U... and I did pick a bad one since Man-U IS a religion!! !!!

Let us note this in the UM archives... Today is the day I got TOTALLY OWNED by Rev. haha

I feel it is impolite to pray out loud if you are in mixed company; it is akin to blurting out in a foreign language. I belong to a non religious service club and we always take a moment of silence before a meal to either reflect on departed members, give thanks to God or simply a moment of gratitude for the meal and the company.

Silence honors all faiths and beliefs.

Irish

Does it thrill you imagining where there is!?



I agree with Hyper. This person got their way before, and they knew they could get it again because of the environment that deferred to his bullying before. If it wasn't for objections to status quo, many in our society would still be slaves, many women property to their spouse, (many are considered as much now), the Earth would still be thought to be flat, while the Sun revolves around the Earth and anyone not a christian would be executed.

Never apologize for standing against tyranny, Shadow. Apologize instead, should you ever stand down.

Actually she was deathly quiet and stayed out of it. She was the only person who didn't speak. I've never seen her disagree with him, so I doubt she would have if she'd spoken.



It wasn't an issue until he became aggressive. He was asked politely to allow everyone the time to express their own gratitude in their own way. He agreed and then went against that agreement when we sat down. When I refused to join in the prayer he asked why I objected to praying, and I informed him that I do not believe in Jesus so I will not pray to him. Then he said I was insulting him. His behaviour was irrational and rude.

If I had begun saying a prayer to Satan would everyone have been willing to take part? Would he have sat by quietly and joined in the amen at the end?



It was important to them, the hostess reiterated the fact that the prayer made her very uncomfortable when I last spoke to her.



They agreed, as a group, on one course of action. It was only after the whole situation had already blown up that they backed out. They did not keep the peace... they saw that they had to continue to stand up for themselves and have him rant at them or surrender... they chose to surrender.

Shadow - good for you for standing up for your beliefs. I do not think it unreasonable at all to request a moment of silence instead of a Christian prayer why should this prayer be the only one said? I will probably get in trouble for saying this but I have noticed that some, not all, Christians get very, very defensive about their religion and can be maddeningly self-righteous about the whole thing. This guy is supposed to be your friend and he is ready to spar with you because HIS prayer isn't going to be said. It seems very presumptious and insensitive of him. YOU should not be the person who has to apologize. This guy was being unreasonable,difficult, rude and smug - and then at the end to say "at least I have Jesus on my side" - I would be offended by that statement. What a wonderful thing to know that your friends pity you because you don't have Jesus. You discussed this with the other people in the group before-hand and then at the moment of truth the didn't have your back - they owe you an apology. They led you to believe you were all in agreeance over this and then they let you take the fall and look like the big a__hole because they were too afraid of confrontation. No way. Hold your ground on this one. You didn't do anything wrong. The hostess said you shouldn't talk religion at the dinner table - isn't saying a prayer bringing religion to the dinner table?

I feel the same way. I've been to dinner at various households where the people present were of different faiths, and I've never encountered a problem before. Usually everyone just observes a small silence, and then congratulates the cook and thanks them for having us.



Exactly.

Well said, Irish...if I'm a guest at someones house that pray before meals I sit and remain respectfully quiet. Most Christians, in the reverse situation will simply lower their heads and say a silent prayer without openly trying to draw attention to themselves.

I agree with MissMel's so far.

I wouldn't be inviting you back to dinner at my house anytime soon if you displayed this kind of behavior of being willing to escalate something this unimportant to a full fledged argument because you felt????? "Dissed"???? because someone wanted to pray before they ate their meal.


This is the kind of antagonistic behavior that I see displayed by a lot of atheists/agnostics who don't want to respect other people's beliefs but want other people to respect theirs.

Why couldn't you have just sat there in your moment of silence as he did what he felt best doing? Why try to push or control the other person?

If you don't want to pray to God then don't. But you can't tell others what to do. The reason the others probably turned "turncoat" as you say is that you were making a mountain out of a molehill in the interest of being right.

Basically that's rude.


Did you write this because it sounds like someone else did and you copied it and pasted it or something? Just curious.

I would have just started saying a vocal prayer to my gods. And if the christian chap started to complain, I would have simply looked at him with a smirk and said "Don't settle well to you, did it? Guess you know how the rest of us feel when you say your prayer allowed."

It would not bother me. I have Christian friends around at my house every now and again for lunch and they like to pray before they eat and I actually pray with them out of respect even though they know I don't believe in God it makes them happy that I make the effort. I don't really see the big deal in it just because the person chose to pray it does not mean you or anyone else had too.

I agree Chaoszerg, that's the BEST thing to do.

But in the event you can't be tactful enough to just play along to make other people happy and avoid ruining a meal that the hostess worked long and hard on, then find another way to deal. You can get your point across without ruining everyone's evening.

I know you thought you had everyone on your side, but it backfired... suck it up.

I agree and this is how I do things. Then again it depends on what they are praying. If they are just blessing the food then I'd probably go along with it. But if they are gushing about the Lord Jesus saving our souls then I'd probably silently pray for the guy to wreck his car on the way home.

What I wouldn't do is say "Amen" I would just sit there in silence.


To me this sounds like a control issue. I think anyone who is secure in their beliefs, whatever they might be would just sit there and ignore the idiot. But if you feel that he is exercising authority over you then it gets prickly and nasty and uncomfortable and you do feel the need to say something.

But that never solves anything and just makes the people in the room uncomfortable.


I'll give a similar example. I'm taking a real estate class right now and its a series of 12 classes for 4 hours each. I started a little while ago and then stopped and am finished tommorrow YAY! but there is this guy in the class that keeps interrupting the teacher and talking about how he's been in real estate for 14 years etc. He'll challenge the teacher and argue on technicalities.

Last time I was taking the class there was a woman who acted the same way. I got really annoyed by her because she kept leaning in to answer my questions. So I said to her one day "I'm paying HIM to teach me, not you and I'd appreciate if you stopped interfering"

Well the whole class started clapping because she was so annoying. But afterward for the next two classes there was tension in the class.

So today, Mr. Idiot while he got on my nerves I was able to just ignore him because we're only having one more class and I don't want to make the rest of the people in the room feel uncomfortable.


What I think is interesting in this case is that both the prayer and the anti prayer person were rude to the rest of the people in the room by forcing their personal issues onto the table for everyone to deal with. It sounds to me like this is about "power" and not really about the issue of prayer.

For my case I got really annoyed with people trying to push their "wisdom" in real estate onto the rest of the room basically patronizing everyone and taking the class off topic so many many times.

I found it rude. But when you answer rude behavior with more rude behavior you tend to lose. Because he probably is an idiot and didn't mean to be rude. But there is no pretending that you didn't know it might cause an altercation.

This is why most people don't stand up for what they believe in. The fall out is not worth it.

Yes they give thanks for the food. They actually respect that I do not believe in God so they just give thanks to the food and then we eat and have a laugh.

that last sentence made me immediately think of this (but i can't say why):






As this is an English speaking forum, we ask that all members please speak in English when posting on the forum or speaking in the chat room, posts that are in a foreign language cannot be understood by the vast majority of visitors and make the job of the moderators a lot more difficult.

edit: the english, as per Irish's request:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill! LMAO!!!!

funny hyper. It was a prayer at dinner, not the Nazi's hammering at the door.


My lord.


(no pun intended)