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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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__Kratos__
Christianity was part of my upbringing and education. Because I am fascinated by moral philosophy, enjoy reading the Bible and, as Private Parris in the Boys’ Brigade, detested military drill, nautical knots, whiting-up my sash and polishing my brass belt-buckle, I have acquired a reasonable grounding in the other skill you could shine at in the BB: religious knowledge. I think religion, like politics, is tremendously important.

The trouble is, I’m sure religion is wrong. This drives me as a columnist into a curious dilemma. My subject is of interest mostly to those of my readers who are liable to be offended by me. One is left writing for a minority audience predisposed to take umbrage at what one says. Those who don’t care for religion don’t care to read about it.

More of the article here...
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A most excellent article to read. thumbsup.gif
MissMelsWell
Ugh, I need to read this in the morning with my coffee. So far, what I've read (and I haven't read it all yet) seems relatively reasonable. But give me 6-7 hours to digest and re-read. grin2.gif
GoddessWhispers
Love the read Kratos! thumbsup.gif

Particularly these two parts:

QUOTE
A miracle, began Hume (On Miracles, pt I), “may be accurately defined, [as] a transgression of a law of Nature by a particular volition of the Deity”.

But “there is not to be found, in all history, any miracle attested by a sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good sense, education and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves.” Forced to choose between doubting the evidence, and believing in a divine suspension of the laws of Nature, only someone already convinced that divine intervention occurs could opt for the miraculous as an explanation. Miracles cannot therefore be evidence of a divinity: belief in a divinity must be the evidence for miracles.

In consequence, Hume concludes (hinting at atheism with such sly elegance that no Edinburgh pharisee could pin it on him): “The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one.”




QUOTE
Disbelief can be passionate. Sometimes it should be. Agnosticism can be passionate. A sense that we lack certitude, lack evidence, lack the external command of any luminous guiding truth, may not always lead to lassitude, complaisance or a modest silence. Sometimes it should provoke a great shout: “Stop. You don’t know that. You have no right.”

I hit you, earlier on, with a burst of the admirable David Hume. But he was not always right. “Opposing one species of superstition to another,” he wrote, “set them a-quarreling; while we ourselves, during their fury and contention, happily make our escape into the calm, though obscure, regions of philosophy.” No, David. Listen instead to Nietzsche. “This eternal indictment of Christianity,” he said, “I will write on walls, wherever there are walls.”

We who do not believe must be ready with our paintbrushes, our chisels and our cans of aerosol spray. Disbelief can be more than an absence of belief. It can be a redeeming, saving force.


Well said! The entire article is very well said. original.gif
Shadow_Hill
Interesting article. I do like a bit of Hume... and good old Nietzsche... “This eternal indictment of Christianity,” he said, “I will write on walls, wherever there are walls.” thumbsup.gif

Devol
Yes, Bill, it is a most triumphant article. grin2.gif

However, what makes it right? What makes anyone's thinking right? Disbelievers state that believers don't have the right to impose their beliefs on others, and while I agree with that, I'll go a step further: No one has the right to impose their beliefs on others. Some would say that religion is wrong based on the fact that followers cannot be sure what is God's will and word, let alone if God truly exists. Others would say that non-believers are wrong based on the fact that they can't be sure either. We are all wrong! ('cept, of course, me. innocent.gif ) Just as a person has no right to force his/her religious beliefs upon another, a non-believer has no right to force his/her beliefs either. It's about respect, people.

If there is a God, let Divinity worry over Its' own will. We, as people who must coexist with others day to day, should worry instead about being good, just people. God may hate homosexuals, I can't say one way or another, but God doesn't have to live in the same community as homosexuals, doesn't have to interact with homosexuals and doesn't have to face the consequences of the intolerance shown to homosexuals. But I digress, this isn't the thread on homosexuality vs. religious beliefs. If God is omnipotent, why would he need humans to enforce His/Her will? Let His Host wage war on the heathens. Worry, instead, on being what God has asked mankind to be; good. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you wouldn't like someone pushing their views on you, why push yours? It's about respect.


rev r
but everyone has a different idea of what respect is. some people think that they are deserving of more respect than they give.
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(devol @ Apr 25 2007, 05:27 PM) [snapback]1645783[/snapback]
Just as a person has no right to force his/her religious beliefs upon another, a non-believer has no right to force his/her beliefs either. It's about respect, people.


The problem is that just voicing an opinion that disagrees with another person's can be viewed as disrespectful. Personally, in the real world, unless someone asks me what I believe I don't go about telling people... and they always go wacko.gif when I mention the word Deist anyway and hear "little green alien from outer space who has unfathomable beliefs". But I've been asked by people who have been downright offended by my response. "What is a Deist?" they ask... I tell them... and they go all squirly and squint at me all funny, and then they say "you'll never get me to believe in that nonsense". I didn't ask them to. In fact, I have never asked anyone to believe in anything.
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(rev r @ Apr 25 2007, 05:34 PM) [snapback]1645801[/snapback]
but everyone has a different idea of what respect is. some people think that they are deserving of more respect than they give.


This is very true. My neighbours believe that a true demonstration of respect involves agreeing with their every word, and giving them money. Not my definition of the word at all. blink.gif
Devol
QUOTE(rev r @ Apr 25 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]1645801[/snapback]
...some people think that they are deserving of more respect than they give.


Yes, and we call those people hypocrites...or a**holes, whichever you're comfortable with. grin2.gif
Celumnaz
QUOTE
hinting at atheism with such sly elegance that no Edinburgh pharisee could pin it on him

personally I prefer honesty
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Apr 25 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]1645846[/snapback]
This is very true. My neighbours believe that a true demonstration of respect involves agreeing with their every word, and giving them money. Not my definition of the word at all. blink.gif

I agree with you Shadow. I wonder, are your neighbors, that think like that, more flush with money, or friends!?
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 25 2007, 09:16 PM) [snapback]1646101[/snapback]
I agree with you Shadow. I wonder, are your neighbors, that think like that, more flush with money, or friends!?


Actually they have neither now - not that they really had any friends to begin with. We stood up to them - almost went to court - and their neighbourhood bank machines (aka my neighbours) dried up.
__Kratos__
QUOTE(devol @ Apr 25 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]1645783[/snapback]
If you wouldn't like someone pushing their views on you, why push yours? It's about respect.


Always curious to me why religion should be repsected...

Christians - terrorism supporters.

Islam - wife beating supporters, along with the rivers of blood the religion was founded on.

Jews - Supports genocide along with murder of others.

Hindus - Caste System... Just too many things to list at the moment regarding that one area. But the main idea others are more equal then others is just pure hateful.

Just to point out the bigger religions on this rock.

I'm sorry to think people want to respect those ideas which are part of the religion, but I will not. no.gif
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Apr 25 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]1645845[/snapback]
The problem is that just voicing an opinion that disagrees with another person's can be viewed as disrespectful. Personally, in the real world, unless someone asks me what I believe I don't go about telling people... and they always go wacko.gif when I mention the word Deist anyway and hear "little green alien from outer space who has unfathomable beliefs". But I've been asked by people who have been downright offended by my response. "What is a Deist?" they ask... I tell them... and they go all squirly and squint at me all funny, and then they say "you'll never get me to believe in that nonsense". I didn't ask them to. In fact, I have never asked anyone to believe in anything.

shadow you again bring up a good point this happens alot on here.. to disagree or have a view that is not christian is often interpreted as intolerant and bashing and often is taken personal when its just a POV.... i t may be even considered blashmephy to not beleive as a christian to a christinan..etc....I find this to be a road block that takes some work to help one who is relgious understand that is okay to beleive differently.......

As a NB it is the most common thing for christians to assume I am also christian simply because I am in the group. for the moment......
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 26 2007, 12:17 AM) [snapback]1646353[/snapback]
As a NB it is the most common thing for christians to assume I am also christian simply because I am in the group.


I've had that happen... that's how I ended up manning church stalls and making tea every Sunday before we moved house, and I didn't have the heart to tell them I wasn't a believer. They taught me how to make a sponge. grin2.gif
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Apr 25 2007, 04:20 PM) [snapback]1646357[/snapback]
I've had that happen... that's how I ended up manning church stalls and making tea every Sunday before we moved house, and I didn't have the heart to tell them I wasn't a believer. They taught me how to make a sponge. grin2.gif

I know , i too have to tell my kids just go with the flow, like clockwork its the same drill I often don't have the heart to tell them i am not christian either, i always feel so closet if you know what i mean....
Devol
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 25 2007, 07:09 PM) [snapback]1646341[/snapback]
Hindus - Caste System... Just too many things to list at the moment regarding that one area. But the main idea others are more equal then others is just pure hateful.

I'm sorry to think people want to respect those ideas which are part of the religion, but I will not. no.gif


Oh, Kratos! I've never asked you or anyone else to respect any religion, just the individuals that follow them. However, since you've continually chosen to insult those of a Christian faith, I no longer feel I need to show you any respect or leniancy in turn. Before I go, though, could you point out how one person can be more equal than another?
Barek Halfhand
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 25 2007, 02:32 AM) [snapback]1645155[/snapback]
in the Boys Brigade,I detested military drill, nautical knots, whiting-up my sash and polishing my brass belt-buckle, I have acquired a reasonable grounding in the other skill you could shine at in the BB ....

sounds like you were skilled enough in the"boys brigade"! w00t.gif was that your past or part of some gay military porn script?.....
good post tho, kratos face thumbsup.gif



Mr Halfhand






halfhandshuffle:DETHKLOK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdcmSpS5CYQ
rev r
QUOTE(devol @ Apr 25 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]1646075[/snapback]
Yes, and we call those people hypocrites...or a**holes, whichever you're comfortable with. grin2.gif


Well I really prefer to just call them people, but I get carried away at times and call them much much more colourful things. wink2.gif
__Kratos__
QUOTE(devol @ Apr 25 2007, 09:07 PM) [snapback]1646548[/snapback]
Oh, Kratos! I've never asked you or anyone else to respect any religion, just the individuals that follow them. However, since you've continually chosen to insult those of a Christian faith, I no longer feel I need to show you any respect or leniancy in turn.


People following the religion are just as much to blame as the words in their holy book. Not sure how it's insulting by pointing out facts either. mellow.gif If christians don't like the fact that in their holy book their god commits genocide against millions of people and other horrors... Tough, it won't be ignored as fact. Should I just completely ignore the horrible things in the bible and any other religious book, while giving in to all the 'good' things? rolleyes.gif Surely if you read the forum this is a spirituality vs skepticism forum. As a skeptic, I'm going to bring up these items in discussion... Mostly in morality discussions.

Oh? I never asked for your leniancy or respect... So I don't see how that is going to affect me in any way.

QUOTE(devol @ Apr 25 2007, 09:07 PM) [snapback]1646548[/snapback]
Before I go, though, could you point out how one person can be more equal than another?


Caste system has different levels, the higher you are the better you're treated by society and the more doors you have. While the lower levels are treated like the scum of the earth for simply being born in the wrong area. According to the religion you're suppose to play your part as well and if you don't you don't get to reincarnate to a higher form but be punished for not playing your part due to your birth. I don't see that as right and I won't respect anybody who thinks so.
Leonardo
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 05:55 AM) [snapback]1646729[/snapback]
People following the religion are just as much to blame as the words in their holy book.


Why is the book to blame?

Here's an argument you make on another topic...

QUOTE
QUOTE(truethat @ Apr 21 2007, 11:05 AM) *
I didn't say one bullet per year.

I said one loaded weapon per year.

In other words when you buy your gun you are allowed to fill it ONCE. Then if you empty your gun you need to come in and fill out a forum to show that you have and then you can fill it again ONCE.


I wasn't aware we were all Rambo trained and can just pick up a gun to defend ourselves no problem at all. So my rifle for example can hold 6 bullets if I put one in the chamber first... So I can go to the range to sight in my scope with 6 bullets... Drive all the way to the GOVERNMERT building to ask them for more bullets, do paperwork, wait to use my right? That's just insane.

QUOTE(truethat @ Apr 21 2007, 11:05 AM) *
But we can regulate the bullets without TOUCHING the constitution. There is no right to load up on bullets.

You have a right to a loaded gun. And you have one. You don't have a right to shoot your gun at whim and I think that is the part that people are missing.


There is a right to bullets however...

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


The security of a free state is based on guns being used. You can't use a gun without bullets, unless you're some Superman person who can run, dodge bullets and more to smack something with the butt of your gun.

Yes, you do as well have a right to shoot your gun. It's the right of the people to keep and bear arms... That means 24/7/365. yes.gif

QUOTE(truethat @ Apr 21 2007, 11:26 AM) *
We are talking about the US right? So there's no NEED to kill animals in hunting. Some families might CHOOSE to live this way but it is not a necessity.


For some it is. I know there is a guy that lives on the other side of town that hunts for the main purpose of putting meat on his families dinner table.

QUOTE
And as I said semi automatic weapons are NOT USED to kill squirrels. They are used to kill PEOPLE. That is what they are designed for.


You're wrong. There are lots of semi-auto weapons out there that are used for hunting. Though for squirrels semi-auto LR .22 rifles are most commonly used. Don't see too many people out there with a .223 hunting squirrels. laugh.gif


What about rolling pins? Baseball bats? Kitchen knives? Hammers? Chemical cleaners? They're all not designed for murder but they are all among the top murder weapons. Should we ban them all as well?

QUOTE(truethat @ Apr 21 2007, 11:26 AM) *
You are part of a bigger community that doesn't understand your personal need to bag a few squirrels with an rapid firing gun.


A bigger community that is American. It is American to have guns. gunsmilie.gif


Are guns to blame, then, for gun-crime? Just as a book is to blame for the crimes committed in the name of religion?

No, people are to blame. You may castigate these people for being weak-willed or weak-minded to believe the message they are being told but, like those who fall victim to the seductive power of the gun they are doing what they do from choice. You believe your Constitution in the same way a religious person may believe their 'holy book'. Does that make you weak-willed or weak-minded?

I am no apologist for religion (nor do I have an opinion on gun control in the US. I don't live there so it's none of my business.) I see religion as simply being akin to politics in that it is a mechanism for control of a population. People commit atrocities, religion doesn't. The choice for believing a message is down to the individual. The blame for promoting a message of hate is down to the individual.
__Kratos__
QUOTE
No, people are to blame.


No, religion is to blame as well as people following it.

Guns are objects that don't preach a belief. They aren't telling you to kill or hate or discriminate for a reward.

Now if a gun said on the side to load and shoot up a college for a paradise afterlife... I would blame the gun makers.
Leonardo
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]1646851[/snapback]
No, religion is to blame as well as people following it.

Guns are objects that don't preach a belief. They aren't telling you to kill or hate or discriminate for a reward.

Now if a gun said on the side to load and shoot up a college for a paradise afterlife... I would blame the gun makers.


Really, tell me then, does religion have a divine message? Are these book really the words of god?

I don't think so and I'm reasonably certain you don't think so either. They are a message being promoted by people, written by people - people with an agenda (which may be long defunct) who understood human nature and how to manipulate it.

Is it religious to hate, to fear? No, it is human nature to do so and those who use religion as their outlet for their hate and fear would still express this part of their nature if religion did not exist. Your constant railing against religion is misdirected as you are bemoaning the darker side of human nature - not the mechanisms we have of expressing that - and if you have a way of eradicating that then you are truly a miracle worker.

Blaming religion for human nature is as trite as blaming guns for the deaths caused by those murderers who use them to kill. Both are simply the mechanism by which the outlet of human nature is expressed. People have a choice as to whether to hate or fear something. Don't blame the expression of that choice, blame the person for making it.
__Kratos__
If a hitman is hired by a mobster to shoot a snitch on the street for 10k and the hitman goes through with it but it caught and tried... Is the mobster at all responsible for offering a reward for the act? Or according to you seemly, is the mobster completely innocent because the hitman acted on his own free will?

Guns on the other hand offer no message, well except for the safety message on them in some cases and in their manuals. By all means, follow the safety instructions for guns.

Leonardo
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 10:13 AM) [snapback]1646859[/snapback]
If a hitman is hired by a mobster to shoot a snitch on the street for 10k and the hitman goes through with it but it caught and tried... Is the mobster at all responsible for offering a reward for the act? Or according to you seemly, is the mobster completely innocent because the hitman acted on his own free will?

Guns on the other hand offer no message, well except for the safety message on them in some cases and in their manuals. By all means, follow the safety instructions for guns.


The mobster is the equivalent of the preacher, both the preacher and the one being preached to are human and have choices. The preacher has chosen to accept the message being preached and the one being preached to has a choice of whether to accept the message or not.

If the message is accepted and the convert then goes on to commit an atrocity the preacher is not to blame unless they took part in this atrocity. Why would they? They may be guilty of committing a crime as the promotion of racial/sexual/etc intolerance is now forbidden under law.

The hitman in your scenario is completely to blame for accepting the offer and committing the crime. The mobster may be guilty of another crime, as the offer itself was illegal, but is not responsible for the death of the snitch. Complicit, yes - but not responsible. If no hitmen had accepted the mobsters' offer would the snitch have died?

You have not shown in any way that human nature is not the cause of the issues you raise. As I said before, take away religion and the human nature of some people to hate and fear would still remain. If you really want to promote tolerance etc then start addressing the issue of people's hate and fear, rather than the excuse for expressing this.
__Kratos__
Actually the mobster is the bible/religion, offering a reward for following what he says.

I'm also saying no where that without religion, there would be no evil. Humans do stupid and evil things all the time without religion.

Yet when a religion offers a reward for following it, it's as guilty as the mobster who hired the assassin to kill someone.

QUOTE
If you really want to promote tolerance etc then start addressing the issue of people's hate and fear, rather than the excuse for expressing this.


Excuse? Some person has a delusion that god is real and that is his word so they follow it. Again religion isn't to blame for all evil, but the stuff it promotes it evil.
Leonardo
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]1646871[/snapback]
Actually the mobster is the bible/religion, offering a reward for following what he says.

I'm also saying no where that without religion, there would be no evil. Humans do stupid and evil things all the time without religion.

Yet when a religion offers a reward for following it, it's as guilty as the mobster who hired the assassin to kill someone.
Excuse? Some person has a delusion that god is real and that is his word so they follow it. Again religion isn't to blame for all evil, but the stuff it promotes it evil.


I'm sorry, but in your analogy crime, the criminal life, is the religion, not the mobster. The mobster is the preacher of crime, of the criminal way of life. He says "Follow my offer of crime and you shall have the reward that crime offers you". Like the preacher of religion, he sings a siren song leading devotees into a life of self-delusion (apologies to those who practice religion, this is only my personal opinion). How can you banish crime? You don't, you stop people committing it. How do you banish religion? You don't, you convince people not to practice it.

It's all choices, my friend, and those choices are made by people - not the lifestyles they are living, or the beliefs they are believing.

__Kratos__
QUOTE(Leonardo @ Apr 26 2007, 04:52 AM) [snapback]1646880[/snapback]
I'm sorry, but in your analogy crime, the criminal life, is the religion, not the mobster. The mobster is the preacher of crime, of the criminal way of life. He says "Follow my offer of crime and you shall have the reward that crime offers you". Like the preacher of religion, he sings a siren song leading devotees into a life of self-delusion (apologies to those who practice religion, this is only my personal opinion). How can you banish crime? You don't, you stop people committing it. How do you banish religion? You don't, you convince people not to practice it.

It's all choices, my friend, and those choices are made by people - not the lifestyles they are living, or the beliefs they are believing.


Fine, don't blame the religion, blame the followers. It's the followers who are following on their own free will. Let them be branded with their belief.

Not sure then what you're aiming at here. I can't blame the bible but according to you I can blame the followers for their belief?
Shadow_Hill
If you accept that the bible is the revealed word of god then god is the bad guy. But I don't believe in the biblical god, so from my perspective it's the ones who constructed this fictional character and follow him who are to blame.

I am still trying to figure out what is so appealing about this god who murders. That baffles me no end.
randym23
i believe religion is a lie.
originally it started out as the pursuit of truth. an primitive explanation for the natural world for a people who had no other means of explaining it. Later i think it became a way for us to comfort ourselves about death. it is hard when a loved one dies and have to admit that you don't know what happened to them. harder still to see atrocity and not want some ultimate justice.

but it is a lie. and i can prove it.

religion
1. claims to KNOW god exists
2. claims to KNOW what god wants
and often
3. claims to KNOW TO THE EXCLUSION OF OTHER SOURCES what god wants.

how can anyone KNOW these things?
i think most average people only BELIEVE. i have no problem with that.
Believe what you want. but your belief ENDS where someone else's BEGINS.
and most rational spiritual people adhere to that
Claiming to KNOW has only one purpose:
to claim to have vicarious infallibility through god and through that
to have POWER OVER other people for money, for profit and for control.

Religion---the oldest corporation in the world.
I'd advise all the religious to build their own church in their minds,
with respect for their minds and for human dignity
you don't need anyone else to stand at your pulpit.
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(randym23 @ Apr 26 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]1646973[/snapback]
Believe what you want. but your belief ENDS where someone else's BEGINS.


Indeed. yes.gif
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE
Believe what you want. but your belief ENDS where someone else's BEGINS.


In a perfect world, that would be recognizable as respect. This is not a perfect world. Monotheistic Dogma, seeks to rule the world under the premise of one god, one way, for all people. Therefore, an institution of belief, does not cease it's intent to influence, control and assume , where others belief begins. Were that true, there would not exist missionaries, in it's name. Were it true, proselytizing, selling it door to door, where it is possible there resides a different faith on the other side of that door, would not come knocking. Were it a faithful practice of mutual respect, there would not exist in our history or in our verbiage, the phrase holy war.

It's a fine thing to believe one's faith should be respected, beginning where they stand their personal ground. That is not reality. The history of every sect of the Abrahamic faiths, proves as much. Indeed, even the pagans were warriors for the cause.

I've never been a believer. A life long Atheist speaks these words, when she says she does not understand how anyone could accept the council of other mortals, no more favored than she, that impart the notion that god is a bigot.

I don't understand and can not accept that a power that creates everything, prefers only a certain few. I don't understand how power can incite war to gain dominion over something else created, other people living, so as to instill dominion of itself, as creator of all that exists. I think, when man created something it could believe in, that had a personality like that, they created an excuse to express their vicious nature. Their selfishness, their racism, sexism, and hate for everything that is alive. Manifesting some material sense of right, in declaring something invisible anointed them in the truth life should be like that , and then imparted rules, to make it so. Religion is not tolerance. It is a vehicle for dominion and segregation. And I don't believe anything that is believed to have created everything, has need to flex it's muscle to prove that true. But I think mans ego, has proved long and well enough, that it is prone to such habit. Because it hates itself, in the image and likeness of others that don't look like them, don't think as they do, and live life by a different sense of rule.

Religion therefore, as I see it, is a habitat for the ego. That imagines itself superior, because it first accepts god speaks only to one, kind of people. Name a sect and each one believes it is the only one that has it right, when it declares what god is, and is not. Yet looking around, one sees that if god were particular, there would not exist so much diversity, contrary to myopic monotheistic consciousness of what's best for this world, if only the campaign carries on, to make the world in the image of one.

Don't live your life hating those that outnumber you Kratos! You'll live and die a very bitter man, and when your life is over that's what you'll have left behind as your legacy. Someone that was overcome by fiction, someone that compromised to lies and tyranny. Institutions are not sentient. They do not deserve respect because they exist, they deserve criticism for how they seek to compel others to exist, under their command, their influence, their example. Christianity preaches tolerance and yet , of all the faiths, christianity has a record for being anything but. People choose to accept the way, to behave accordingly, to see the world as a battle field for conversion of minds and spirit. And in that regard there is one thing that is absolute. One does not have to accept, what's sold to them. They do not have to see the world as one giant vestibule awaiting conversion of the masses attending, to one mind. One faith, one way, to what is only promised through other mens faith.

One can freely choose not to be religious, one can also freely choose not to let the religious destroy what they hold dear, which is peace of mind and personal sovereignty. No minister will ever change my mind, to see this world their way, rather than mine. I do not live in fear of some sky father watching , judging, what it made to be all that I am, if I am made in it's image. I read what that image is and how it's countenance presupposes it's right to rule this world, and I know that it is illogical to accept anything that made everything, is particular to one way of being. That's man's creation. Selfishness and possession, is not godly.

Stand your ground Kratos, and consider this. No one can ever change who you are, by being them, unless you give them more power to influence your living, than you hold in feeling assured you have a right to live without their permission. Some people shall always hold faith in something greater than they, making themselves less than, for the effort. Beholding and grateful to be parented by the invisible. It's a choice. When it becomes a choice to object, is when that fiction attempts to command by law, everyone to it's bidding.

And I think that's when we witness that right of faith does not stop, where another's right begins. That's when we witness what jesus is said to have preached against. That's institutionalized thinking and that's where it need be stopped. When some think they have a right to make others think differently than they do already, so as to accept one notion of one god and one way of living for all time. That doesn't deserve respect. It deserves to be crushed in it's arrogance, smited in it's audacity and repealed of it's authority to disrespect the living, as ordained by heaven. People make flesh, the religions of the world. If one truly believes their religion is about tolerance, they need stop believing in books and start living the spirit of all that means. If they did, this world would celebrate it's diversity, learn from the wisdom of the ages of all women and men alive here, and never have created in mans image, the bloody history that declares tolerance for diversity is not a part of heavens accord.
MissMelsWell
QUOTE
By all means, follow the safety instructions for guns.


By all means, if you're going to pack a loaded Bible, follow its safety instructions too. Look up Jesus in the index and "do no harm, treat your neighbors well as you would like to be treated, be tolerant"
GoddessWhispers
Then that would mean they should ignore the other loaded clip (keeping to the gun analogy here) where jesus says:
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.


dontgetit.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 05:44 PM) [snapback]1647382[/snapback]
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—


Ok, I can live with that. I don't believe in Jesus but I already love him more than my M-I-L. laugh.gif
GoddessWhispers
laugh.gif I use to know one of those. crying.gif You know that movie, 'monster-in-law' ? wacko.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 06:52 PM) [snapback]1647461[/snapback]
laugh.gif I use to know one of those. crying.gif You know that movie, 'monster-in-law' ? wacko.gif


The woman in that movie was a saint in comparison to my M-I-L... the only thing that ever makes me doubt my belief that the devil isn't real is thinking about her. laugh.gif

Now I feel wicked. devil.gif
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ Apr 26 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]1647470[/snapback]
Now I feel wicked. devil.gif

Careful! Sounds like you might have let some of that M-I-L rub off on ya. tongue.gif devil.gif

You know why they're referred to as your mother, in law, right!? Because mother in trunk, is illegal. rofl.gif
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 07:08 PM) [snapback]1647484[/snapback]
You know why they're referred to as your mother, in law, right!? Because mother in trunk, is illegal. rofl.gif


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif I have a good imagination... I'm picturing it now. yes.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 12:09 AM) [snapback]1646341[/snapback]
Always curious to me why religion should be repsected...

Christians - terrorism supporters.

Islam - wife beating supporters, along with the rivers of blood the religion was founded on.

Jews - Supports genocide along with murder of others.

Hindus - Caste System... Just too many things to list at the moment regarding that one area. But the main idea others are more equal then others is just pure hateful.

And NB's support.............ummmmmmmmmmmmmm themselves LOL w00t.gif
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 27 2007, 01:52 AM) [snapback]1647648[/snapback]
And NB's support.............ummmmmmmmmmmmmm themselves LOL w00t.gif

Same as believers. It all comes from within, when someone gives their faith to something they believe is god. wink2.gif

You know the wonderful fact about Atheism? They don't believe in a god that kills people because it can.

That holds a lot of hope for empathy, compassion and peace, in future. Don't you think!? wink2.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 10:16 PM) [snapback]1647775[/snapback]
Same as believers. It all comes from within, when someone gives their faith to something they believe is god. wink2.gif

You know the wonderful fact about Atheism? They don't believe in a god that kills people because it can.

That holds a lot of hope for empathy, compassion and peace, in future. Don't you think!? wink2.gif

Most important person you should have faith in is.....................yourself!!


linked-image
GoddessWhispers
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Apr 27 2007, 03:23 AM) [snapback]1647791[/snapback]
Most important person you should have faith in is.....................yourself!!
linked-image



It's from there that everything else is born. wink2.gif I have a very close friend that loves the spirit jesus embodied. She says of herself , I am the temple of all that is good, manifest in this opportunity to create a better world.

She doesn't attend church, she doesn't believe the bible is gods word. She believes in the metaphor of christ, and the gnostic vision of what that was, as it invigorated a mortal man. And as such she believes everyone is an embodiment of that spark. I mean everyone! Even those that some call evil. Because as she sees it, if they didn't exist it wouldn't provide the opportunity to show that goodness can overcome viciousness and evil. She sees it all as a game, this life. Polarities, playing off one another, on every level. There are no damned people, she says. Because if everything is born of god, god can not damn itself.

She's one of the most peaceful and delightfully people I've ever met.



QUOTE
“Once we believe in ourselves, we can risk curiosity, wonder, spontaneous delight, or any experience that reveals the human spirit.”
E. E. Cummings (American poet 1894-1962)
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 04:42 PM) [snapback]1648033[/snapback]
It's from there that everything else is born. wink2.gif I have a very close friend that loves the spirit jesus embodied. She says of herself , I am the temple of all that is good, manifest in this opportunity to create a better world.

She doesn't attend church, she doesn't believe the bible is gods word. She believes in the metaphor of christ, and the gnostic vision of what that was, as it invigorated a mortal man. And as such she believes everyone is an embodiment of that spark. I mean everyone! Even those that some call evil. Because as she sees it, if they didn't exist it wouldn't provide the opportunity to show that goodness can overcome viciousness and evil. She sees it all as a game, this life. Polarities, playing off one another, on every level. There are no damned people, she says. Because if everything is born of god, god can not damn itself.

She's one of the most peaceful and delightfully people I've ever met.

it does seem to be the norm as i can say I am very fortunate to be delighted by such folks also.....she sounds so inspirational and how fun Gw ... to surround yourslef with such exemplary people.....
GoddessWhispers
She is amazing. I tease her and say she only likes me because I live in a church! laugh.gif Then we go off hunting for the rumored cache of wine the pastor I bought this from told us was buried around the property, during prohibition. Really, it's just an excuse to walk the yard and plan where the next seasons herbs and flower gardens are going to go. But when old pastor (my nickname for the guy I bought this from) , comes by and sees us in the yard, it tickles him to no end, as he thinks, there we are, hunting for hidden jesus juice. (his words, not mine) He's a riot to. He knows full well I'm Atheist, yet every Sunday, like clock work, after his son conducts the church services at the new church (old pastor retired after he sold this place to me) , he comes over for tea and home made bread. Every week a different bread, so it doesn't get boring. And every Sunday, if he happened by another day and she and I were out in the yard, he'll tease and ask if we found those old bottles yet.

On his birthday, in August, I've got a friend that collects vintage bottles. I'm going to buy a really nice red, pour it into one and wrap it with ribbon. When he sits at the kitchen table, I'm going bring it out, smile big and say. We found 'em!! laugh.gif That reminds me. I have to make a note to get a really large floor pillow, for that part of the floor, where he'll be sitting. Just so it can catch him when he falls out~ the ~chair. Can't be a bad hostess, ya know. tongue.gif

Barek Halfhand
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ Apr 26 2007, 06:46 PM) [snapback]1648043[/snapback]
it does seem to be the norm as i can say I am very fortunate to be delighted by such folks also.....she sounds so inspirational and how fun Gw ... to surround yourslef with such exemplary people.....
agree! grin2.gif








Mr Halfhand
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ Apr 26 2007, 05:22 PM) [snapback]1648096[/snapback]
She is amazing. I tease her and say she only likes me because I live in a church! laugh.gif Then we go off hunting for the rumored cache of wine the pastor I bought this from told us was buried around the property, during prohibition. Really, it's just an excuse to walk the yard and plan where the next seasons herbs and flower gardens are going to go. But when old pastor (my nickname for the guy I bought this from) , comes by and sees us in the yard, it tickles him to no end, as he thinks, there we are, hunting for hidden jesus juice. (his words, not mine) He's a riot to. He knows full well I'm Atheist, yet every Sunday, like clock work, after his son conducts the church services at the new church (old pastor retired after he sold this place to me) , he comes over for tea and home made bread. Every week a different bread, so it doesn't get boring. And every Sunday, if he happened by another day and she and I were out in the yard, he'll tease and ask if we found those old bottles yet.

On his birthday, in August, I've got a friend that collects vintage bottles. I'm going to buy a really nice red, pour it into one and wrap it with ribbon. When he sits at the kitchen table, I'm going bring it out, smile big and say. We found 'em!! laugh.gif That reminds me. I have to make a note to get a really large floor pillow, for that part of the floor, where he'll be sitting. Just so it can catch him when he falls out~ the ~chair. Can't be a bad hostess, ya know. tongue.gif

thats beautiful Gw ..let me know his reaction...how fun...
Devol
QUOTE(__Kratos__ @ Apr 26 2007, 12:55 AM) [snapback]1646729[/snapback]
Oh? I never asked for your leniancy or respect... So I don't see how that is going to affect me in any way.


Well, then I guess neither of us has to worry about it. You obviously don't give a damn about respecting anyone else or their beliefs. You believe the way you believe and screw everyone else, right? Whatever. Have fun with that thriving social life you must have.

Again, you missed my point; how can anyone be MORE EQUAL than anyone else?!? It is impossible for anyone or anything to be MORE EQUAL than anything else. If two people are equal then they are, in some sense, the same. One person cannot be more same than the other. Is any of this making its way past that brick wall you put up in front of your logic?

Oh well. Take care of yourself!
__Kratos__
QUOTE(devol @ Apr 26 2007, 09:06 PM) [snapback]1648267[/snapback]
Well, then I guess neither of us has to worry about it. You obviously don't give a damn about respecting anyone else or their beliefs. You believe the way you believe and screw everyone else, right? Whatever. Have fun with that thriving social life you must have.

Again, you missed my point; how can anyone be MORE EQUAL than anyone else?!? It is impossible for anyone or anything to be MORE EQUAL than anything else. If two people are equal then they are, in some sense, the same. One person cannot be more same than the other. Is any of this making its way past that brick wall you put up in front of your logic?

Oh well. Take care of yourself!


So because I speak my opinions on a discussion board... Wow... Everybody speaks what they believe here regardless. Should I be all up in arms over christians seeing me to hell? Muslims wanting my head chopped off? Jews wanting me killed? Hindu's not accepting me? Buddhists thinking I'm immoral for enjoying my steak? Or should I just bend over backwards and take it all to be completely PC so I don't accidently offend anybody? rolleyes.gif Straight talk is just the truth... I don't see any reason to dance around. Vice versa... There have been plenty of threads against atheists that were harshly worded... I don't remember you being there trying to play a sad moral police guard for the atheists or anybody else. So what is it about me? Do you really want my attention soo much you have to keep this up? laugh.gif

Oh, it's impoossible on the grand scheme of things... But on treatment by the society and the religion they are not as equal as others. My brick wall of logic? I'm talking about the Hindu caste system... If you do want to see more... Use google and see what I'm talking about. rolleyes.gif
MissMelsWell
Yes, GW, your friend and her spark within all is key and central to what I think all Christians should look for in all people and within themselves. It's spiritual... a divine and benevolent guide. It isn't fraught with a whole lot of rules and rituals.
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