If I could do something about what's "out there" I'd be sending up trash vehicles to pick up the space junk we leave behind... From garbage on Everest to junk in space -- there is no place we will not sully. Global warming and pollution are testament to that...we're jeopardizing our life support system - which is insanity. Humanity Insanity...sounds like a bumper sticker to me....



Oh, please...that's your spin. I seperate the earth from the cosmos the same as I seperate England from Afghanistan...



I'm a sunworshipper - have been my entire life... Goes to show what you *don't* know about me. How many times will I have to say it's not blame, it's reality? A reality you don't wish to acknowledge apparently... We cannot change what we will not acknowledge... (good ol' Dr. Phil)
Is it hard needing to be right all the time?

Yeah, nitrogen is a stable gas. That's my point. Precipitation contains no more nitrogen than the air around it. The process of transfer from the soil to the plant cell is through the fission of H20 during lightning strikes. The chlorophyll molecule bears a striking resemblance to hemoglobin, the red pigment in human blood. The red blood pigment is a web of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen atoms grouped around a single atom of iron. Nature's green pigment is a similar web of the same atoms except that its centerpiece is a single atom of magnesium.
Does something like lightning cause red blood cells? Red Blood cells contain oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen? What is the problem with y'alls thinking process? I guess, there is not enough of it!
Ok, well I was thinking of the other end of Parsec. The smallest particle and well, I guess you don't know about who gives you your information when it is coming from different areas in different directions. You just don't know. That is why it is so rediculous to you.
Ask the atmosphere this question: 'Is there a chain of the atoms of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen existing in you?'
That's rediculous to you, I know. But, the answer will come from outside of you. You will find it in a book, somebody will be talking about it, or many other ways. Perhaps you went to school and remember your teacher telling you, but it has all come from outside of your head! You know nothing! In fact, I know nothing. I know how to read and comprehend what has been decided in the past.
Everything is based on 'stare decisis.' The legal system, the educational system, the economic system. All of humankinds knowledge is of the past, humans only know what has been.
Does the sun cause global warming? Not to the point of burning everything up; that is not the sun's job. The sun, speaking from a biblical standpoint, was only created to give light and that is what it has done for a long time.
Nitrogen is why plants do not burn up. Nitrogen is why all of life does not burn up. Nitrogen is why everything does not burn up.

What will burn us up?

Oxygen. Watch the re-entry into the atmosphere of a space rocket. They have heat shields that can withstand burning scorching heat and they make it down to earth. The only molecule in the outer upper atmosphere is Oxygen - Ozone. That is why no space rock, which is heavy hydrogen and calcium, usually make it through the atmosphere. But, the heavy hydrogen that makes it through and down to earth from space cause very different problems.

No, I don't see it that way... being "right" all the time, and I do not subscribe to those who play that game either because all that does is allow what is correct to be passed over with comments like that which avoids what is true and what is not in the first place... another of those politically-correct pop-culture comments that have nothing to add to the discussion.

As for seperating things... that is another thing I do not do. Listen, one of the first rules of nature is to see that all things are connected ~ not seperate. Even "England and Afghanistan" have something in common... all the countries of this Earth share the fact that they are part of this planet, and I don't make the dis-connect that you do... talking about global warming... and then seperating things part and parcel as you do...

Reality is relative... your own comments prove this to be true. However, you may want to pay much closer attention to what is happening on a wider, and broader scale than you have. Cheers.

Hmmm...

Perhaps you could be more specific about the "direction" your information is coming from...that might make sense of all this.




And what is it that's going to cause everything to burn up????
The sun gives light, and heat, and energy which powers all processes on this planet. The biblical standpoint is rarely relevant to the discoveries of empirical science...






Uh...I have watched the re-entry of about 100 "space rockets" into the atmosphere. It wouldn't matter if it was oxygen, or hydrogen, or argon, or any other gas besides, they're all up there). A velocity between 17000 and 25000 FPS causes friction with particles, and that's what causes the heat and destruction. There just happens to be oxygen there (but unfortunmately, not O3).


The problem here is that most of the burning you see is in the lower thermosphere and through the mesosphere (between about 75 miles and 30 miles altitude).





Baloney. All sorts of atmospheric molecules are in the upper atmopshere...except very much Ozone. Ozone is concentrated in the stratosphere (the majority of it between 4 and 15 miles in altitude...there is also some troposheric ozone), which is below those areas noted which cause the majority of the friction and ionization during re-entry. By the time significant ozone is encountered, re-entry has concluded it's fiery phase.




"Space Rock"?
Do you mean meteors or meteoroids?

Hydrogen and calcium? Meteors are of various compositions. Metals, silicates, etc. They could be cometary tail particulates, which may be rock and ice, they may be metallic and heavy elements, they may be dust, and they may be man made stuff...metals and plastics.

Heavy Hydrogen making it down from space through meteoric entry?

Deuterium? What are you talking about? Deuterium exists in our oceans, in our bodies, and anywhere that hydrogen exists. It's a gas, which exists at a 1:6600 ratio to hydrogen.
It's already here. It might be present in some cometary meteors, but it's insigificant at best, and is broken up by the heat of re-entry. The only thing that gets to the ground is rock in meteorites.

I think you are hiding a decidedly metaphysical perception here. Your statements make no sense other than to credit them to this aspect. Perhaps you should be clear about your position, rather than stating a bunch of stuff hidden by pseudo-metaphysical talk and poor facts.

Excellent post MID.

after trying to get through all those posts

Which is winning Sun or Man as the casue of global warming

Unless the sun has caused massive deforestation, urbanisation and fills the atmosphere with soot* then we can at least be 100% sure that some climate change is entirely down to human activity.

We can't change the sun. We can change us.

* http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleId...rc=most_popular

thats true thank

If I was to bet i would back man as the culprit

We also have this thing called an ATMOSPHERE that traps greenhouse gases, allows life to exist and keeps us from being fully exposed to elements from space. It's almost simple; harm the atmosphere with CFC's and excessive C02 and voila! Human influenced climate change.

Wow, it all sounds so easy. I guess that says it all, doesn't it? Blame humanity... again, and again. Yeah, you're right... it's almost too simple. Viola!

Humanity is a cause but does not get 100% of the blame. Understanding that excessive CFC's, C02 and deforestation worsen climate change is simple to understand and outragous to deny. It's funny you are trying to make it seem like I am trying to be simple and pin down all the blame on one source. Because first of all I'm only stating the fact that we are contributing to climate change. And second of all you are the one claiming the Sun is the one and only source of climate change and every other weather event. Hypocrite.

Yes, and I am not the only one either. Listen Reincarnated, quit with the name-calling, and stick to the facts: The Sun is the prime reason for climate change and all the weather on Earth. That means that all our weather on this planet (and the other planets in our solar system) come from the SUN.

Now, just what is so difficult about understanding that? How does that astrophysical and geophysical FACT make one a "hypocrite?"

Humanity is NOT the cause of climate change. Quit with the blame games and all the pseudoscience you spew out blaming mankind for global warming. Just get real dude. Do your homework.

You are being a hypocrite because you accuse me of being simple when it is clearly the other way around . All you say is "the Sun this, the Sun that" and you continue to deny the proven fact that humans contribute to climate change. You can't even acknowledge other factors exist! Who is being simple now?The fact that we are continuing to harm our air & planet still stands. Did you forget we have an atmosphere? You know it would be a lot more colder & hotter without it. Use your common sense to realize excessive greenhouse gas emissions and vast deforestation harm our atmosphere and make any climate change more intense regardless of it's cause/source.Last time I checked, the astrophysical facts said humans indeed contribute to climate change.No one said we were silly. We are a factor in climate changes severity though. Stop being immature and pinning the same lines on me over and over when we have gone over this before and you know what my thoughts are on this subject. Your games won't work here.Acknowledging humans as a factor in climate change isn't a 'blame game'. It's a proven/provable scientific fact. The only pseudoscience I have seen used here are your astrology hobby beliefs and whatever self-label you give yourself. That was another perfect example of you being a hypocrite! You couldn't make it any more simple for me. You are the one that needs to put down the horoscopes and do their homework.

I do much more than just "say the Sun is this, the Sun is that..." ~ again, another of your oversimplifications of what others who disagree with the pop-culture myth of "man-made global warming" are saying. As human beings, we interact with our own atmosphere, and environment every single day, and without the SUN ~ there would be no life on this planet Reincarnated. What part of that don't you get?

As for astrology ~ this is another one of your oversimplifications which clearly exhibit not only your pop-culture mentality, but your obvious lack of knowledge of just what is that you are talking about. The only "game" I see here is your lack of knowledge being pushed out with comments like the ones above you make constantly.

All you've done on this subject is play the blame game ~ which is typical of those who don't have a clue as to how their own climate operates ~ both astrophyiscally and geophysically. You are under the false impression that the weather begins here on Earth. It does not. It begins in space and ends up here on Earth as our climate and the weather. You need to look up kid, and get a clue, about how things work rather than mocking what you are clearly unaware of. That is what I mean by doing your own homework.

Moreover, there are other kinds of "weather" which, from your previous comments, I am certain that you are unaware of as you are about the facts of the local star we call the SUN.

The only "hypocrisy" I see here is your failure to acknowledge this, and to do your homework ~ both on climate change, and classical scientific astrology ~ two subjects you make many assumptions about that are nowhere near to the truths of the matters. The only "pseudo" I see here is your lack of coming up to par and being a player on the field, rather than ranting and raving... playing the same "blame game" on humanity. What do you have against human beings?

We humans are natural to the planet, you know, and I must remind you, that since you are so hot on blaming humanity for the release of carbon that carbon is what you exhale when you release your breath. Are you blaming us humans (including yourself) for inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon too?

I don't find your ignorance funny one bit .... but sad, considering your penchant for remaining always in one gear (mentally). Do you have any other mental gears than just one? Are you able to evolve mentally? Or is it easier for you to remain on the level where you are? That way you don't have to learn anything more since improving your IQ might present you with a headache? Is that the case?

The Sun. Hands down. It is no contest.

Theodore,

Do you understand the concept of feedback?

Do you understand that we (humanity) have changed the condition of the atmosphere?

Do you understand that the changed condition of the atmosphere has changed the level of feedback arising from the sun's affect on our climate?

Can you then understand that we (humanity) have affected the intensity of climate change?

Please do not be side-tracked into talking about space weather. I only wish to know whether you understand all the above, not to know your astrological beliefs.

If you want to accuse your opponents of oversimplifying an argument you might want to avoid statements like this.

Oh, brother...you don't have a clue. Your version of what I seperate and what I mean are so far off track there's no way for you to recover. You're a single minded train wreck, Theobore...

You know this *how*? Are you so out there that you know there are no other lifeforms existing in different universes and galaxies?
If humans are "natural" to this planet - one would think we'd be living in sync with it - not annihilating it systematically. If we're "natural" to the planet why can we not coexist harmonically with other species and races? The animal kingdom (less humanity) can.
Humanity is out of balance with a well balanced life support system. Humanity has upset the natural balance of planet earth. Nothing "natural" about us at all...imo, as always.

So how did the sun chop down and burn the rain forests again? And when exactly did it build New York City?

As I said before, humans definitely cause climate change. The debate is whether we're responsible for all of it or not.

debate is if we're responsible for .0001% of the change or .007% of the change off a guestimate of what it should be.
debate is if it's even a bad thing to try and "stop"... global warming might be good for us but ppl fear change.

I would agree that the 'facts' as stated by Al are probably overblown and hype up only one side of a topic... however... having said that....
It CAN be shown that indeed the SUN is contributing to the issue of global warming as are other 'natural' cycles of this Earth. We as occupants however, should take responsibility for what we DO contribute in the way of environmental damage. To call it the SUN's 'fault' is neither here nor there.

The call to attention is simply....IT'S ALL A FACT. No matter if it's an overuse of SUV's or solar flares - OUR EARTH IS STILL RECORDING WARMER TEMPS, PROVEN, NO MYTH, THE ICE IS STILL MELTING.... it can't be denied that images and common sense should tell all of us that we affect this planet.

With all due respect - the shame of this issue is that human is trying to find a scapegoat so that we can continue living with our heads in the sand. Doesn't take a report to tell you things are changing. Your crops, gardens, animals, yards and local weather patterns should show everyone this.

The Bees are dying - who cares. it only means that Man simply won't exist much longer after that.
UB313 is headed down the pike and causing changes on other planets in our solar system - violent storms, temperature changes - but who cares right? Ceratinly OUR planet isn't included in that affect? Noooo... why would it be.... head back in sand, pointing remote back at TV and pressing volumn button to LOUDER.
All the 'facts' they feed us about what kills us, makes us healthy, etc... it changes like underwear. BUT!!! Those 'experts' are on our TVs! So they MUST be right.

Wake up people. Changes are not COMING - they are HERE. We are IN THEM. Can't you read the 'wave' of brainwash thats happening now on mainstream media???? They're preparing us for global disaster.... because 'they' know it's happening.

Will you consider to live without your PDA's for a day? Or your cell phone? Or your car perhaps? Live without ANY of your electronics... practice survival outside of the illusion.
STOP READING and pointing fingers at 'causes'.... Go outside and see it for yourself. Then do something.

No it's not.

What you're referring to is whether a gas such as CO2 (or indeed sulphur or Ozone) making up such a small percentage of the atmosphere can have any effect on climate at all? Science says yes, others claim no ....


Of course, a lot of climate change is due to other human activities anyway.

Sorry - one additional comment of mine...
If we all put just a FRACTION of the energy into changing our habits as we do into griping about 'causes' of global pollution and changes....
We might survive it all.

It amazes me that the Ancients, without a lick of technology, could recognize these global changes.... but we are yet to have a 'text message' that can explain it all to us.

check out these weather and temp reading sites
http://www.climateaudit.org/

love this gal http://home.earthlink.net/~ponderthemaunde...nderthemaunder/

Edit: what I'm referring to this time at climate audit is the "Microsite" writeup.

more data at http://climatesci.colorado.edu/publications/pdf/R-321.pdf

Are you denying our planet is warming?

If that's where the data leads. Personally I think there IS some kind of climate shift going on (and I look towards HAARP/chemtrails/waves from "galactic center" area for that), but if the data (compared, confirmed, comprehensive and not cherry picked) leads elsewhere it would be smart of me to lean in that direction instead. No?

"The integrity of climatological observations is often compromised by poor environmental exposure of instruments"
Correct. So argument either way is kinda pointless...

So I say again.... we do ourselves better to simply 'observe'. Make our own decisions about our own actions and ask ourselves... am I 'blaming' or 'doing' something to care for not only MY physical self, but also doing something for the care of Earth's physical self.

We're not on a dead rock here. It's a living organism, part of a living solar system, part of a living Galaxy etc....
Do we sit in our own filth at home? Do we experiment on our walls with chemical solutions to see if the walls deteriorate or continue to hold our roof up? Is it okay to paint your kids room with lead based paint? Or throw your trash into your neighbors yard? Do we cut all the trees in our own yards down and 'plant' concrete jungles instead?

The point I'm trying to make is the same as several on this forum. It really doesn't matter what report says what. It's everyday, observable, elementary common sense. WE DON'T TAKE ANY BETTER CARE OF THIS PLANET THEN WE DO OUR OWN BODIES. We care that little.... except for when we're trying to be 'right' about where we got our 'facts'.

Who cares. Care about something real. Look outside. Watch your pets. Watch the animals in nature. Watch the trees. Watch the light shadows. Watch... look. CARE. Stop trying to make 'points'.

What we can really do to make a difference here? Change our attitude. Take better care of our bodies, minds and Earth... matter of fact... perhaps we could even put as MUCH care and importance on those things as we do our... say ... automobiles?
May we all wake up in time.

that's what I'm doing Storm, until I hear that someone wants to pass something like Kyoto

then they're digging into my pocket for someone else's perceived problems

then argument either way isn't pointless, because they're trying to get something out of me, for nothing (doesn't matter if you're not interested in politics, politics is interested in You)

social control, economic control... over data that argument either way over isn't possible to determine (as you say, "Correct". The "Global Warming Alarmists" will Never concede that)

they say the debate is over, time to pay the federal (or global economic) piper

I don't like that song

Most of what you say I put to my kids as "don't crap in your own bed like the dogs do", "don't pee upstream river"... it's just common sense responsibility, more akin to more localized pollution, and isn't the topic of Global Climate Warming, nor the point of the agenda.

Again with all due respect - I'm not here to get into a huff with anyone. Our points really are the same, our focus perhaps in different directions...
Localized pollution, starting in our own homes with our attitues is very much a part of the Global Warming topic. I don't like the song of paying the piper either - but they take our money anyway. I'd rather invest in the vision of global awareness rather then not. They already waste our tax dollars and we already pay for many things much less deserving of our attention and time.

I don't cheerleader for 'alarmists' either... we all make our own minds up (at least this is my hugest hope) based on our perspectives, personal positions and situations... We all choose which piper we pay without gripe I guess.

No one wanted to hear Galileo either... too many changes and too expensive to believe the world is anything but flat.

Side-tracked? What do you think the topic of this thread is? I suggest you re-read it since the Sun, and the Earth live in space, and THAT is where ALL the Earth's weather comes from.

ps... if the issue of global climate change doesn't come into full awareness of the population... then, in my opionion, we don't take it seriously when all that expensive equipment starts beeping and telling us to move out of the way as the water moves in... and so we pay for it 10 fold with wasted lives, broken cities, lost jobs, insurance, homeless children, etc, etc, etc....

The 'alarmist' are due their kudos too - at least SOMEONE is ringing a bell to hear. And regardless of whoever's data is the 'right' data... the fact that we become aware that we are 'less' then the power of this planet, I would hope, at the least, will cause another New Orleans to never happen again...

and yet it does. Yet we wonder why it's important, who's data we're looking at....

No, humans are NOT responsibile for global warming. Never was. Never will be.

No. Are you denying that the Sun is responsible?

I didn't ask you, I asked Celumnaz. Couldn't you tell by how I quoted him? Anyways, at least you aren't in as much denial as him and claiming our planet is not warming.Nope. The Sun is one of many factors in Earth's climate change.Those sound like some desperate words there pal! You are destroying your own credibility by such uneducated statements and exposing yourself as the fraud that you are.

So, just because you don't agree that the Sun is the cause of global warming that makes me a "fraud?" Jeez. Another typical, silly, ignorant, and presumptive comment from you Reincarnated. Get educated pal, because obviously, you are not.

No, statements such as this make you a fraud:And you say my comment was silly and ignorant? Yours just took the cake! You are the biggest hypocrite I have seen on these forums. And to think you call yourself a professional.

I've earned my right as a professional. What's your excuse?

Good points. One of the major problems with the alarmist crowd blaming humanity for global warming is that they just don't have a clue as to how the climate and weather is caused in the first place. They think from the feet up, and they never look up. Their "awareness" is very limited ~ and mostly directed to creating hype, which they've been doing for some time. The hype has gone to their heads, and still their minds are so convinced of the lies of manmade global warming. It is not a wonder why they don't listen, or learn well at all. Many of them are deeply uneducated about the Sun, and their own planet, but love to throw blame around ~ except on themselves for their own ignorance about where weather comes from in the first place.

Nicely side-tracked, Theodore.

Would you like to answer the questions I posed you now, please?

Forgive me if this is 'off topic', but I consider it one topic that fits in here just as well... and it's things like this that I talk about when I say 'They' already spend / waste our money in many ways worse, then true research for global benefit...

"HAARP Boils the Upper Atmosphere

HAARP will zap the upper atmosphere with a focused and steerable electromagnetic beam. It is an advanced model of an "ionospheric heater." (The ionosphere is the electrically-charged sphere surrounding Earth's upper atmosphere. It ranges between 40 to 60 miles above the surface of the Earth.)
Put simply, the apparatus for HAARP is a reversal of a radio telescope; antenna send out signals instead of receiving. HAARP is the test run for a super-powerful radiowave-beaming technology that lifts areas of the ionosphere by focusing a beam and heating those areas. Electromagnetic waves then bounce back onto earth and penetrate everything -- living and dead.

HAARP publicity gives the impression that the High-frequency Active Auroral Research Program is mainly an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good. However, other U.S. military documents put it more clearly -- HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes." ........"

You can read the whole thing here... and in many other sites....

http://www.haarp.net/

Above all, greed will be the downfall of man.

Sorry, I didn't realised you were an omnipotent god. Obviously you are perfectly right and us mere mortals cannot even comprehend the extent of your great knowledge of all things past, present and future.#

Still doesn't explain the rain forests though - how does evapotranspiration occur to create rainstorms (and low level clouds, which help cool the planet) if there are no rain forests? Or, as an omnipotent god, do you do the job instead?

And why are city centres always so much warmer than the surrounding countryside, and have differing rainfall patterns, if humans aren't causing climate change (on, at least, a regional basis?). Or is that you again?

True. But obviously the scientists studying climate change are a different matter altogether

The problem is that some people see the alarmist nonsense in the media and assume it comes directly from the scientists - who are invariably misquoted out of context in order to make for a more exciting story.




HAARP is nothing of the sort. It's purpose is the study how solar activity affects the ionosphere in order for us to improve (or deliberately worsen ) radio communications.

The ionosphere varies greatly in strength through the day and the year - indeed, in winter at night it's virtually non existent (which is why you can pick up so many foreign radio stations at night, but not by day).

Thanks for the comments on Haarp Essan - I'm not quite sure what to believe about that contraption. lol... but i've read some scary things. I sure hope you're right and its not some kind of sick new war toy...
Good day.

I've seen it claimed it does everything from read your mind to control hurricanes, cause earthquakes and, for all I know, pick the lottery tickets. But there is no actual science behind these claims - just comments like it uses electromagnetic beams and so on. I think some people watch too much Sci-Fi.

naturally the offical HAARP website paint a more benign, if rather boring, picture:

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

... but they would say that, wouldn't they

Well, I'm sure there's hype either way - I guess my concern would be that they would do with HAARP, what they did with nuke power... that could be an energy source also...if we didn't make a bomb out of it first. thanks for the link. i'll check it out.

Bravo! It's one thing to discuss these issues - the application is what's important.

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.culture....arch+this+group

You may wish to visit alt.culture.alaska and read what they think about HAARP... If the link doesn't work - google, groups, alt.culture.alaska will get you there. Then type in HAARP in "Search this group"... Interesting opinions abound.

[you know what i think. you are an alien covertly trying to induce doubt and skepticism. your species needs higher c02 levels in order to overtake this planet. if my theory is right then you shouldnt protest breathing from a tailpipe. If you do that is proof to me that your hiding your identity. dave matthews " gotmore cars than a beech got sand suck it fill it up till no more"