I would like to share my viewpoint on sexuality and gender & give a different perspective on the whole homosexual thing.

(GENDER) Masculinity and femininity are not to be confused with (sexuality)--

Sexuality is the (chemistry) of our body, THE BODY.

We are born either male or female, not neither, not both, but of one or the either. We ARE either Masculine, or we ARE Feminine. Either way, we are ONE of the two. Clarify: you can't turn a gay person straight. There is no Gay, merely someone born without their wings to identify their sexuality.

Human nature with all it's mistakes may screw up and give us mixed genitals, & even sometimes a higher level of masculine/feminine chromosomes- hormones than one gender should have-- Nevertheless, All that aside, what WE ARE (WITHIN), our "apparatus," are either feminine or masculine.

A man isn't (masculine) because he has penis or scrotum, a woman isn't (feminine) because she has a vagina or boobs. If they have all of this, then they just have it, because she is feminine and he is maculine... BUT even if they LACK some of these parts, or even ALL of these parts, they are still masculine or feminine.

This goes back to one of my favorite quote by F. Martin

" a bird doesn't fly because it has wings, it has wings because it can fly."

The bird wasn't born with wings to become a flyer. The bird was concieved as a flyer and the wings accomodated to it's very being..

We are born with an inate understanding of (what) WE ARE on the SEXUALITY COMPONENT of ourselves -- within US....What drives our chemistry... Despite our physical attributes that may contest this-- Hence, a male realizing he is sexually attracted toward other males at a young age...He has his male parts but finds himself to LIKE other boys...How are we to tell him he's wrong? When within the child he IS actually right!

Your thoughts--

Could a bird, despite having wings and the ability to fly, think it's actually a fish? Would the fact that it thinks it's a fish make it a fish?

Excellent thouhgts Sunni. And I applaud you for bringing up the topic.

However....... I have a vision of this thread becoming several pages of argument over whether or not sexuality is genetic or "chosen", followed by vociferous declarations that homosexuality is a sin and then the thread will be closed.


But good luck with it,

yet there are birds that swim.

That certainly isn't my intention JM- Just my thoughts on the matter.


IAMSON.. Our person is first (sexuality-chemistry) then our physical traits come after that (gender.) Whether those parts agree to our set sexuality is the issue here of wrong or right. :]

Joey, i must say your psychic abilities amaze me........they are dead on...

sunni it is a great subject ..

son how do you know ther isn't some fish who feels he's a bird ???? My dog thinks he's a cat......

Yeah, why are people so heated about other folk's internal struggles or lifestyles anyway?

If a teenaged girl is struggling with her SEXUALITY deep down, how does that effect everyone else?


When it concerns issues such as that of our (very nature,) who are we to question its authority, and by that authority who are we to say its all in WRONGNESS?

Not that a bird is a bird and therefore thinks like a bird-- This is not so simple.

It doesn't affect everyone, Sunni, just the individual and those who would want the video.

My take on the whole homosexuality issue is this: Homosexuality is a personal decision/issue, and as such, is no issue to seciety at large. My personal issues are subject to the opinions of none other than those I ask advice/help from, so why should I hold others up to scrutiny for their personal issues? Whether it's a genetic thing or a social "deviancy", I couldn't care less as long as their 'activities' are sane, safe and consensual.

In the end, it comes down to this; a bird is a bird, a dog is a dog, a person is a person. No matter what sexual preference they may choose, they still deserve the same basic decencies afforded to any others.

You couldn't be more right about that-

Maybe you can understand this- but It would be a wonderful thing to have more people open their hearts and minds up to those very things that they would otherwise find appalling- Homosexuality I used as the example. It would, to me, be even a grander thing to have more Christians opening up their hearts and minds particularly.

I can certainly appreciate your previous post entirely.

Yeah!! and my rabbit thinks he's a vicious rottweilor!!!

Just thought i might stick a bit of technical stuff in, although sexual preference is of little relavance to me, if someone is nice, then they are nice and thats that.

Sexuality and Gender work together. The part of the brain that differs between males and females is called the sexually dimorphic nucleus, SDN for short. Dr Rogar Gorski in the 1980's did experiments on rats where he injected pregnant female rats with testosterone, the female baby rats in the litter behaved more aggressive and masculine and their SDN was the same size as a males. This points towards the idea that our gender behaviour is affected by our SDN, a biological attribute. We could then presume that if the same were done to a human then the same results may be seen. I believe they can now attribute specific elements of male/female hormones to the SDN.

This points out the possibility that men who feel liek a female stuck in a mans body may have a small SDN and a female who feels the opposite may have a large one. So in essence they really ARE females trapped inside a mans body and vice verca. So anyone who is against sex change is not taking these facts into account.

There are arguments that say our gender behaviour is socialised/learnd through the way we are treated as we grow up because of our sex. We build schematic models of what colours, clothes, toys, behaviours we should associate with our gender identity. Blue for boys and Pink for Girls, Dolls for girls and Cars for boys. Money and Ehrhardt (1972) came across a rare psychological opportunity to test tthis idea out when one of a pair of twin babies had his willy burnt off during circumcisn OUCH!

They re-asigned his gender and oversaw her female upbringing with pink clothes and dolls etc, it seemed to be a success YES!! WOO HOO Gender behaviour is socialised/learnt and not genetic WHat a discovery ...Another Psychologist named Diamond (1982) later followed up Money and Ehrhardt's conclusions and found that the boy/girl had had many problems which M and E had ignored and actually had the sex change reversed anfd was living as a man again. So it seems that even when brought up as a girl with all the drugs and support, boys will always be boys. The sadest part of this story is that he actually commited suicide a little while after Diamond had been in contact with him .

It makes me angry that M and E were blinded by their egos.

Yeah so i reckon that the sex we are born with has a big affect on the way that we are brought up. Through the clothes we are bought to the games we are encouraged to play, to TV programmes on television...Bob the builder is a gendered stereotype. He solves problems with his friends the diggers encouraging interest in cars and lateral thinking, where as girls programmmes focus more on aesthetic looks (which angers me) and bonding interactions / experiences encouraging understanding of emotions and communication skills.

My thoughts on people who are Gay or have been through the change? i dont believe it matters whether it is biological or socialised, the point is they are who they are.


Cool topic Sunni
nn23

please look at the following post

Thanks

Defender

Well,

Homosexuality should remain banned from my society because it goes against:

Islam and Nature

Then because of diseases that is associated with it
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemp...ticle01-7.shtml

Let me state the arguements in my head:
1- We should interfer

If you said that it is a personal choice,
I would say that it is a personal choice to take drugs, why do people interfer, and why do government interfer

2- We should not let the people who do such act expose because they will affect others who don't have feelings

If you said people should have the ability to chose and we cannot delete the ideology from the world

I would answer, yes I cannot delete the ideology but I can limit it
how it will affect others?
Others may get interested in the idea at the beginning because it is there and they want to try it out, although they are NORMAL

Then every government bans some ideologies and the freedom of speech that westerners claim goes missing when there is a person denying the holocoust or supportive of terrorism

So ideologies are not always respected,

3- Why are some westerners want people to allow homosexuals from what they claim is their right,
while, they prevent Muslims from marrying more than 1 even if the women agree!!

4- Why are many wersterners don't like people to marry ladies less than 18, say 12
even though the girl agrees to marry the guy,

Don't get me wrong but these arguements are about personal choice issues that have twisted answers in western world

That is why at the beginning of my post I mentioned the first reason is islam,

As a muslim we are being attacked almost at everything by the western media, but when I look closely I see that they are the one who need help not the islamic laws.

Sunny My thought in brief, we should interfer to stop homosexuality from spreading, it is not a personal choice it is a society choice

Regards,
Defender

How do you feel about men/woman who feel like they are woman/man stuck in a man/womans body? What about what i wrote above? Empirical evidence that shows that their brains are actually like that of the opposite sex, they really are a man/woman stuck in a woman/mans body...by nature. This means that it isnt choice, its physical. Should people who are physically different sexually be banned from your society aswell?

-You say it's against nature---- I say how can nature be against itself? My original post describes my thoughts to this very thing.. Nature, something inate, the chemistry within doesn't always correspond with the physical parts (internal/external) of the whole- Nature may screw up & then what? This screw up doesn't make this person unnatural. This is nature in itself.

- Do you think that being GAY is contagious?


- These homosexuals do NOT choose to be gay. Their sexuality isn't in line with chemistry of the opposite sex (which places them as being "gay").... They feel as natural about their sexuality and gender preference as a "straight" person does.

And as far as diseases go, there are many many many straight folks out there with some CRUDDY blood curdling CRAP, let me tell you... Im sure the number of straight folks with STDs are way higher than those that are gay.... even triplefold..

lol Internet. Or lol The World is one Twisted Place.

The Government often does not interfere with drugabusers personally; generally only distrubuters/sellers are charged with crime. The drugabusers themselves generally end up in rehab or die. The Government has an interest in maintaining the health of the populace as it will increase taxable revenue (people sitting in their homes smoking pot or whatever drug is not very productive, and illegal drugs are so far not taxed). The Government does encourage drug-dependency by way of "legal drugs", medications of various kinds for psychological ailments. To take drugs is indeed a personal choice, but most societies do not want to have massive budget deficit.

People who don't have feelings? Like psychopaths? (religious)

Delete what ideology? The Ideology of Substance Abuse, the Ideology of Homosexuality? Neither of those are ideologies.

The diseases associated with it are associated with sex in general - although I am very much in disapproval of the promiscuity of modern society - and if they want to try it out, then let them do so? Let them decide - you suppose those who enjoy it are ABNORMAL -- how can there be something abnormal when there is no ecstatic truth, no constant of normality but a changing socially-constructed and subjective idea thereof? The scriptures of the past and the percieved truth of the people amount to nothing.

Many animals - often those that are more socially advanced - do sometimes display homosexual behaviour; it is then not at all surprising that humans, (the most socially advanced being, for better or worse) does engage in homosexual behaviour.

Absolutely NN!! It's just ridiculous how others can so easily look over such major, sensitive, and important (identifying) factors in someone (ELSES) personal life...All In the name of what's right or wrong, or worse, GOD!!?? .
I believe you were using Gender Identity Disorder (GID)--- extremely troubling for the person stuck in this world-- To internally KNOW what YOU are, but just so be that nature gave you something that doesn't correspond with your internal self... May God bless them.

No they should get treatment for their feelings

Feeling, i.e. desires could be changed, we have in our TV a show that is called Seerat Alhub, or Love Legacy and it talks about such issues and one of the issues that I saw
that men feel like they are women and vice versa
and they said that through psycotherapy they could be healed,

When the Second Caliph saw a man walking like a woman, i.e. moves his bottom body side ways he beat him in the street as a protest to his abnormal behaviour

So the answer to your question is we treat them

if they don't want the treatment then we ban them from public places and from exposing themselves

Regards,
Defender

This you say makes me think of something I read before.. when it comes to humans and animals... If you take the love, compassion, empathy, affection out of human sexuality (regardless of preference), all you have left is two animals copulating.. Sounds sick I know LOL, but it does make a lot of sense to me. Whether two people are same sex, or different they are ultimately human and express these characteristics thru their very sexuality----this goes back to nature of expression despite its physical parts.

Yes I believe, and I believe they could be cured

and

The same question I posed:
why does your governments ban Muslims from marrying more than one if the women agree, if it is merely about personal choice?

Why the government goes after the people who sell drugs!!!!
if it is a personal choice to buy or not ??

<gasp> beat them to treat them? It's ludicrious to beat someone straight--

Defender, there are NO treatments for these people.
You can't change nature. If they need any counseling/psychological treatment at all, it would be definately a direct result from the beating.

Yea, any polygamists!

Drug addiction/usage is most certainly not a victimless crime. Many people can and are effected by that drug user's choices.

We are talking about homosexuality and it doesn't effect YOU, does it?

In my world, anyone disagreeing with me (i.e. you) is done away with by my secret police.

You cannot protest abnormality when no normality exists but in imagination.

Oh and, why for example the U.S Governments bans muslims from marrying more than one wife is the same reason you want to beat people who do not fit into your ideal vision for the world. :> (Old book and tradition sayeth no)

I'm not going to debate your logic, rather I'd like to ask you to come to the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum. Their are many people there who feel the Muslim faith is not represented as it should be. Take care!

<PRAISE THE LORD!>

Defender, the spirituality vs. Skepticism group is calling you by your very name.......



amen.

I know of one individual who could use "treatment"

O' something serious ...

And he wants to know why many people consider muslims to be barbaric.............

but i'm just suprised he didn't mention decapitation...



Anywayzzz.

I tried to read and comprehend that propaganda website, but I couldn't read the whole thing, as I noticed it bore slight resemblances to Another Website... [WARNING: Do not click this link if you a) are extremely impressionable by religious propaganda, are overly sensitive to topics such as religion or prejudice, c) believe that the world is a perfect place, without biggotry or stupidity, or d) think that the world will never again see the evil views of people such Hitler]

Exactly what "society" do you live in that would breed such a twisted mentality?

Wow Defender, I just wanted to say you have absolutely disgusted me.

Thanks for making me lose some more faith in humanity.

Hi Defender,
As i wrote in that same post, actually the best of psychotherapy can not change the brain which somebody is born with. That twin was born with a male brain and he was brought up with all the hormone treatments and what not to be a girl, but it still didnt stop him from changing back to the state he was when he was born and then commiting suicide.

Forgetting the argument of gender/ sexuality detail. This guy had major treatments in his life that lead to major depression and then suicide from all the confusion. It shows that perhaps this psychotherapy treatment cares more about benefiting the rules of your society than the actual support that people who are born like this require. Just like the two doctors Money and Ernharte turned a blind eye to that twins well being so that they could qualify their study as a success.

You said...

If a woman walks without moving her bottom body sideways would she be beaten also?

I think what people need to appreciate is that while to us the values are in complete conflict with our own. It is the strength of the faith which qualifys them and this strength is admirable. Its amazing to think that belief in something unprovable can advocate such violent acts of punishment and oppression upon people who differ from themselves, without any objective evaluation. Perhaps it is as strong as our faith in our own values that cause us to respond to his values with such indignation (justifyably so, i might add).

I completely disagree with the values of your society defender because i try to love everything with respect, care, consideration and good humour and not violence, force or control no matter what creed or colour. It is because of this that i do not feel you deserve to be blasted for values which you have been socialised with since you were a child, in the same way that we are socialised in our society with ideals of equality that quite often shoot themselves in the foot.

I am impressed that you came to this thread to share a view with us that you probably knew would cause offence in the same way that gayness causes offence in your society. I find this contrast to be quite ironic.



nn23

Why do I compare drugs with homosexuality

Well
Drugs affect the brain of humans
Homosexuality affect the morals of humans

Since we ban the drug dealers because they are the one who provide drugs for the user

We should ban homos because they are going to provide such ideology to other

Then Most homosexuals were normal people, i.e. married

You did not until now answer me
why do you want us, muslims, accept the homos when you don't accept the straights who agreed to have more than one wife??

I mean it is twisted logic that unmarried guy can have 5 girls at the same time,
but cannot have 2 wives at the same time

Personal choice cannot be used as a reason for a society to accept abnormaility

As how do we treat them, As I said they need psyco therapy

As for the beating
It is a cure to the society to warn people from walking like him or copying him

We have a saying that says: " The person who feels immune from punishment behave immorally"

So beating is not to cure the person, it is to maintain morals in society so it is to cure the society as a whole


Regards,
Defender

WOW! thats so interesting. So its about the greater good for all, you have no care for individuals, yeah?

Does God work by this system also?



nn23

Well the society is more important than an individual,
That is why a person who sell drugs is taken to jail

because of the benefit of the society

Yes but that was merely the context for my second question which you did not answer.

Yes,
That is clear in the Hadith where the Prophet mentioned a story about a village that God almighty has ordered angels to destroy the village
The angels responded that there is a good person among them

But God Almighty ordered them to start with him the punishment because he saw the wrong and he did not advice them, nor he went away

rather he associated with them, although he was not doing the bad things with them

So the benefit of the society is greater than the satisfaction of an individual

I wonder what life on this earth would be like if every creed punished people by association with that which they viewed sinful, it would be a complete slaughter wouldnt it?

So to use your drug dealer going to prison analogy in an earlier post. It would not just be the drug dealer who would be sent to prison, but also the people that the drug dealer sold to, the friends of the drug dealer, the friends of the buyers, the family of the drug dealer and buyers, the friends of the family, the family of the friends. EVERYBODY would have to be sent to prison if this association idea was plausable.

In this society we often call the the judgment of another by association discrimination.


mmm Yes but i was not enquiring about the individuals subjective experience of satisfaction, i was enquiring about God's subjective experience.

Does God create your rules in the name of greater good for all without caring for the individual? Not inrelation to their satisfaction but in relation his love.

How can he care for the greater good for all if he cannot even care for an individual?

It seems a little Paradoxical to me.

1. There are no ecstatic truths on which morality can be based and thusly morality lacks objective foundation in more than human imagination.
2. Homosexuality per se does not affect the morality of a person. Being homosexual does not make you promiscuous.

I get the feeling what you mean by morale is ones ability to adhere to the regulations presented in an old book.



There's no ideology involved. I think you might be referring to trends and stereotypes prevalent in said groupings, but those are not something everyone would subscribe to.



What were they supposed to do with the unmarried guy who has 5 girlfriends? Marriage is something one must apply for - however the guy does not have to apply for girlfriend permission from anyone but the girl involved. If he is cheating behind her back, she will hopefully leave him when it she hopefully finds out he is one unfaitful vile beast. If she is okay with it, then so be it - what could be done about it? It only shows her own stupidity; why should the government concern itself with such travesties and personal dramas?




Abnormality requires normality to exist; rendering your point moot.


Since when has ideas like those produced anything but a backwards oppressive police state of a quite unfriendly nature? Cure society, from what exactly? Some illness, this "immorality" - the desire to in heaven reap the lust of 72 virgins and 28 prepubescent boys; the supple flesh pulsating viciously with lust, awaiting a ravageous hand--

What is the benefit to society of enforcing those morals?

very nice DeVoL, a very good argument. . . why do people care about it? let the gays do what they wanna do, they dont complain about us.

Collective punishments do occur in this world,
e.g. Iraq's sanction for 10 years
who suffered the most = children

Samewise Palestine was punished because Palestinians Choose Hamas

Saying



is different to what your governments act

While we don't put the father of a gay in prison rather the gay himself if he found guilty then we punish him, in My Math'hab we kill the Gay man if he found guilty, the lisbians have different laws

What I say is that the society is resposible of cleaning the society from immorality,,, Gayness is one of them



God care about individual by protecting them through the divine law from having such ideology around.

This earth is about test is not about joyment otherwise we should be in heaven

We are here for a test to see whether or not we obey God,

So what individual desire and is not approved by God should be banned

As simple as that.

Still you did not answer the question
if it is a personal choice why don't you allow Muslim men Marrying more than one woman if the women agree?????


Regards,
Defender

HA HAAA, i didnt know you were directing that question at me. Well, i dont disallow anything, the government does, so i do not know, i think if all parties are happy within the marriage and it facilitates self actualising for all partakers, i do not see a problem with it. Polygeny and Polygamy are both interesting subjects. Religion aside, there is an interesting correlation between the location of these doctrines, and the wealth and sex ratio of the societies that allow it.

People who shout the loudest about gays are usually trying to suppress their own homosexual feelings, Like the imam who beat the guy for wiggling his a***, he beat him because it turned him on, and he couldn't handle it.
I've just walked around the room wiggling my bum, just because i wanted to, i might do it again later, if any ladies want to watch me wiggle my bum i'm available for viewing at weekends.

In response to nena



Well, in our society the morals are set by Islam,

So issues of morality are defined by Islam

Now, There are somethings which are straight forward that are defined specifically

other things are rational

For example I asked a knowledgable person about whether or not I can remove my chest hair and he said that if my intention to follow women or non-muslims then no but if it annoys you and you want to remove for example your wife asks you then it is ok

So the answer is rational, depending on the intention == I mean I will not go around exposing my chest on the street.

before I begin my rant let me state - I so support any one of any religion that has an open mind and heart. that knows that religion must change as the world changes in order to survive. that too many beliefs are based on ignorance and/or a type of society where the thinking wasn't as knowledgeable. ( hence a flat earth and slavery). I believe we all have a right to believe what feels true to us about god. that being said.


I take it you don't live in America, if you do your only here begrudgingly to excape strife in your own country? try educating yourself first . your sunny belief , just like christanity on homosexuality is wrong. period. it is backwards ignorant thinking. just like a man having more than 1 wife and no woman in her right mind , that isn't brainwashed , would agree to such a thing.

Just because your religion or any other says something must be so doesn't make it right or good. as from it being from god ? that's your belief not a fact.

and fyi - straight sex has killed more people than homosexual sex ever could. again educate yourself. AIDS? majority world wide is a result of straight sex. you forget syphilis and other std's that can kill. majority of those cases are straight. should we kill straight people? does having an std make them bad? of course not.

how about this - point out to me a lesbian with AIDS as a result of woman to woman transmission. one that doesn't have other factors like drug use or (older) blood products or a partner that may be bisexual. you won't find one.

does that mean lesbians are better than straight people? since we are the lowest group to even contract HIV ? ( next to being celibate) of course not.

do you think I chose to be a lesbian to put up with morons who think the same way you do? to lose a job, housing , childeren , family ? No it is societies choice to hate that which they are ignorant about. what they fear. they fear anything that isn't like them. The same reason why being anything other than a white male in America is still being the underdog. * we are hopefully advancing , much to the chagrin and anger of alot of white men.

if you believe I or anyone did your sadly mistaken. I don't know anyone who chose to be gay. not one. and I've been out for over 26 years ( wow has it been that long?) I finally told my mother when I was 15. SHE KNEW ! she said she's kinda knew since I was a girl. Heck I was about 12 when I started really* realizing it. and that is a long process. you wonder why you 'really ' like that dreamy looking classmate while other girls are giggling over ***X ( it was I think Scott Baio or someone similar then lol ) god did those girls seem stupid.

so please - people . get a clue. to say this is a chosen 'lifestyle' is crazy. do you choose to be straight? and I hate the term lifestyle. Makes it feel like it's something you do on weekends or the way you arrainge your furniture. It's only a part of me. If I never have sex again I would still be a lesbian !! sex is really a small part of anyones whole life.

Defender . we may meet one day and have coffee as strangers. talk and find each other engaging. you may say ' I like this woman's company. She seems upstanding. Honest . caring. ' then the minute you learn I was a lesbian suddenly you in your mind turn me into some thing that should be killed.

how sad for you. how sad you believe that like many do. realise also many muslims don't. your religion too is changing.


* I always knew ,but never thought about it just like most girls don't really think about marriage and boys seriously untill a certain age. yet they know thier straight.

Oh! Oh! I've seen that movie before!

V For Vendetta was so awesome!

Didn't work out too well for you people, though.

Did the man who was beaten expose his butt on the street? Did he perform sexual acts with another man in public? I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that he did not. Homosexual activity is usually kept private. You may disagree with the public displays of such behavior (holding hands, hugging, kissing, etc.) but here in America, there are public decency ordinances to protect people from anyone, hetero or homosexual, from going too far. A man was beaten for swaying his ass-ets because someone felt it was an expression of homosexuality. How do any of us know that he wasn't doing it to entice the women on the street? Some women find feminity in a man attractive. *shrugs*

Why isn't a Muslim allowed to marry more than one woman here in the States? It's not socially acceptable. If a Muslem wants to marry more than one woman, that man can move to Utah, convert to Mormonism and marry as many women as he wants. He'd better do it quickly though, it's becoming unacceptable even among Mormons, or so I hear. Let me ask you this question; why aren't homosexuals accepted in your culture? You go on and on about how homosexuality is a social disease, but you have to understand that your society is vastly different than that in the States. You also have to remember that we all view God differently.

As long as a homosexual isn't asking you to engage in sexual acts, what difference does it make? God has host of angels to pour out His wrath, he doesn't need humans to do it for Him. Let God judge people as He sees fit, but remember that it is His judgment to make, not yours or mine.

here you go defender -

give it another 100 years. People are starting to realize not all that is so called 'good and holy' is right. ( in any religion)

Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[3]

Al-Fatiha Foundation is dedicated to Muslims who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, questioning, those exploring their sexual orientation or gender identity, and their allies, families and friends. Al-Fatiha promotes the progressive Islamic notions of peace, equality and justice. We envision a world that is free from prejudice, injustice and discrimination, where all people are fully embraced and accepted into their faith, their families and their communities. Founded in 1998, Al-Fatiha Foundation is a registered US-based non-profit, non-governmental organization.

Al-Fatiha has fourteen chapters in the United States, as well as offices in England, Canada, Spain, Turkey and South Africa.


http://www.al-fatiha.org/