Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Oh yes, those horrid immoral homosexuals! While it's deeply rooted into the christian hatred to the point where many christians call for homosexuals to be put to death for simply living their lifes; while others just simply scream profanity laced degrading comments towards these people; and of course others that just see it as immoral and fight against it. It's a mark of bravery and faith to speak up against the evil homosexuals... Right? Everywhere you turn in this world today, you have some christian spouting off about the homosexuals and how "WE" can't let them win.

Turn the page...

How many christians break the Sabbeth every week? I know when I was out yesterday on the Sunday, there were plenty of people out and about working.

How many christians buy meat at the stores with blood still in it? In the supermarket yesterday, there were shelves and shelves of red meat dripping in the juices of blood waiting to be cooked.

How many christians plant fruit (tomateos are a fruit to) and actually wait till the 5th year to harvest the fruit to be eaten? While the first 3 years are not to be touched and then on the 4th year you offer all your fruit to god?

How many christians shape their beards?

How many christians have tattoos?

Come on people it's in the next chapter... All of it! Leviticus 19 states this all!

Though none of these abominations are treated with such hatred and outcry then the verse against homosexually. When was the last time you saw on the news a man was beaten to death with baseball bats because he clipped his beard? When was the last time you heard about a tattoo parlor being firebombed for being an abomination? When was the last time you saw a supermarket being protested on a nation wide level because they sell meat with blood in it?

Picking and choosing the hatred. Just awful.


Let's all move onto Chapter 20...

If a child curses his parents, the child is suppose to be killed.

If you commit adultry, you and the other person are to be killed.

Anybody who claims contact with the dead or a medium is to be killed.

Come on! How many children are killed each day for talking back to their parents? I don't hear about it that often. Adultry... Wow that's a huge one in this country but you don't see christian gathering at each and every gossip house with torches and pick forks waiting to kill them. Psychic hotlines and other mediums are huge in this world... You don't see protests over them, you don't see them being killed in the name of the lord.

So what is it about homosexuals that christians ignore all the rest of those chapters but focus solely on them? Some twisted hatred that is nothing more then picking and choosing on their own faith. They are choosing to hate homosexuals. They are choosing to ignore their own sins and other sins in this world that they ignore with great free will.

Soooo much effort into hating homosexuals. Lobbies, voting, protests, research, forums, sign up sheets, church meetings all over one abomination. What makes homoseuxality soo much worse then any of those others mentioned?

Why don't christians kill their children when they back talk? Come on! It's in the bible in the same chapters you're using to hate! So shouldn't you be killing your children for the lord!

I still dont get the things in Leviticus.

Christians always pick and choose which parts of the bible to practice. They'll use excuses like "but that's only for Israel" or "that law was done away with", when actually every single law in the Old Testament should still be practiced by Christians.

Omgwwjd?! He'd celebrate Passover (The Last Supper), he wouldn't work on the Sabbath (he never did. According to the Talmud he did, and that's what upset the Pharisees) and he would teach people directly out of the Torah (he did that. He even quoted Moses.) I could go on and on. The guy was a PRACTICING JEW...so wwjd?

Here's a wacky answer. Some scientists believe that Homosexuals are not 'turned gay' but born gay. If homosexuals are born gay, then God made a mistake when these people were in their mother's wombs. Now, God can't make mistakes and he said that homosexuality is wrong. So, Christians have to deny homosexuals not only because God said so, but because he couldn't have made a mistake and genetically malformed a baby to his ideal norm.

Why do you quote the Old Testament when accusing Christians? the OT laws are for the Jewish faith, You should ask people of that faith as Christians are no longer under the laws of the Old Testament, it is just for reference and history of our faith but does not govern us because we are covered by Grace not my law or perhaps you could quote something to back up your claims from what Jesus said because that is whom we follow.

Irish

OT is part of the bible. Those same quotes are also used by christians of all sects across the globe. Then if Jesus never said anything against homosexuality, why do christians even bother then? Shouldn't they then openly embrace homosexuality?

I never saw Jesus denounce those laws either, do you have a quote of Jesus saying those laws are all bunk?

Leviticus was in no way divine, it was simply laws to keep struggling societies in order. In a society where if a woman did not have a son she was in huge trouble and would be unable to support herself, they were seen as a burden. Of course, that's the historical concept and reason for the anti-homosexuality in the Bible. They are obsolete laws meant for a different society, and have no place in today's comparatively utopian world. Why Christians still discriminate against homosexuals is beyond me.. goes to show the power of a couple lines of text.

The Bible is an interesting historical document but to base modern moral and ethical decisions upon it is absolutely foolish.

Thanks for mentioning that. I was under the impression the "OT" laws were revised by the New Testament. I also believe that much of the "Law" in the bible can be explained by another thread about these laws and why people think they were originally so important to society.

Why do so many people use religion to bash homosexuality? That is a loaded question, and full of potential debate. Good question though. Are there any New Testament quotes regarding homosexuality (or any sexuality) or even better, any quotes from the "lost" books? I'd be interested to see if any of those ancient unedited texts have any position on human sexuality.

Kratos, you give the impression of being bitter and hateful yourself, you are constantly assigning hatred to people whom you do not know well enough to know anything about them, and your sneering sarcasm puts people off from being willing to talk with you. You seem to already know everything: According to Kratos, Christians are hateful and stupid. So, why do you bother asking if you've got it figured out? If there is no God, and no ultimate sense of right/wrong/justice, and each person can create their own right or wrong, than the "Christian hatred" that you speak of so childishly emphatically, is no more wrong or right than anything else is. If each person's sense of right and wrong is right for them, and you and I have no right to judge it, then you are being as judgemental and hateful as you claim others are. We are a world full of individuals with individual senses of right and wrong, and no one has the right to be sitting in judgement of another's sense of right and wrong, correct?. So I don't see what your problem is.

I will tell you in a nutshell why some christians go after gays, publicity and money. The whole anti gay christian movement really got going in the seventies, a decade where people were not going to to church as much, tithes were falling off, either due to the economics of the time or other factors. The bigger churches are corporations who need money to keep in business. They needed something to stir their paritioners into coughing up more money and what better way than to have an "enemy" with which to rail against. It is an easy hot button issue to take out and flog to get the flock riled up, same thing with abortion.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Yes it a sin along with lying, cheating, gossiping, lusting, envying, gluttony, drunkenness and adultery. Oh wait a minute that about covers everyone you and I know including ourselves, so if homosexuality is a sin then they are sinners just like the rest of us no more no less they are in the same boat as us and need redemption.

Irish

That one you are going to have to back up.

I got all that from using holy text in my arguements? If you think I'm being hateful and more by using said religion against that said religious... Isn't that something. Here I'm argueing against discrimination. I think we should all be hateful towards discimination.

I don't have a right to judge others? Says who? Last time I checked I'm a free man on this rock. If someone is going to be using religion to oppress and hate another person, it's going to be looked at if you really like it or not.

The morality arguement you present is "Just leave it be!" instead of "We're right!". That arguement always comes up when believers are cornered into their own religion.

Alright, let's assume I'm hateful... I'm argueing against people disciminating other people here. Wow, I feel ashamed of myself already for standing up to wrongs. Last time I checked discimination was WRONG! According to me and my morals it is. We don't need a god for morality... And the morality of religion as clearly shown here is backwards and wrong, in my opinion. I don't agree with discimination or wanting to put people to death for being homosexual. That's just insane to me. Why is that 'good' morality for christians?


So back to the holy text, why do christians pick on the homoseuxals? You failed to mention that anywhere in your post but rather focused entirely on me.

hi THG, i dont want to get involved in the argument you and K have, not my business,
i have some gay friends and a couple of them do seem distressed by continually being told they will go to hell for they're gayness. the others couldnt give a flying V, but Alex and Sid believe in God and Jesus and have had issues with this. from their perspective most christians when they learn that they are gay (hehehe they are like huge blips on the gaydar) something changes in the attitude of the christian, I have witnessed this numerous times. on a few occasions someone who was polite and friendly before becomes quite rude, and actually tells them 'you know youre going to hell for that'
WTF?

one friend actually killed himself by walking into a railway tunnel because his family were catholic and could not accept his orientation. he was messed up by their rejection and attitude. this issue is real, and not pleasant, and should be addressed by the clergy.

That doesn't show anything but you listen to Christ. Grace and truth are part of Christ but Moses law as given by the lord are still standing.

Why is homosexuality a sin then to christians? You just argued that OT laws don't apply for christ and now you're saying homosexuality is a sin... So what is it according to you?




Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Wrong. What makes them only for the Jews? Have you read Romans 9-11? Christians need to be grafted into Israel.

You guys have to obey the laws too. Jesus did.

Kratos, I meant that you are going to have to back up the "many Christians call for gays to be put to death" thing. I don't see that happening. Can you show me the many Christians who are calling for gays to be put to death?

Gods Army - There's one example. It's in there.

Happy now? Now, let's focus on the thread at hand... Why do christians pick on homosexuals?

Not quite, they are still standing if you wish to be judged by the law however Christians believe that Christ already fulfilled all requirements of the law on our behalf.


Did you have a problem reading what I wrote?

ONE more time; listen carefully!
Yes it a sin along with lying, cheating, gossiping, lusting, envying, gluttony, drunkenness and adultery. Oh wait a minute that about covers everyone you and I know including ourselves, so if homosexuality is a sin then they are sinners just like the rest of us no more no less they are in the same boat as us and need redemption.

Kratos why do you not ask the same questions of the Jewish faith or maybe Islam? they are the faiths governed by the laws of which you quote. If you are truly interested in why people pick on homosexuals why don’t you ask people who take an active role in picking on them, maybe take your concerns down to the local truck stop I’m sure there are a few red necks who could help you with your research or perhaps even a local chapter of the KKK might even agree with your interposition of scriptures.
Truth is, it is evident that you have a problem with Christian’s period and anything you can use as a slight against them. But if you are genuinely concerned check out the truck stops, Clan office, Mosques and Temples and get back to us with your revelations.

Irish

I was mirroring commonly held atheist assumptions. I believe everyone has the right to judge by the truth of Jesus Christ what is right and wrong. But so many people talk about no one can judge, etc... I wanted to see what your reaction to that line of thinking is. I also wanted to point out that you are using your personal judgement of right and wrong ("I'm standing up for victims of hatred, etc...") to condemn another's sense of right and wrong, which is something that is supposed to be a finger-wagging no-no in current secular society. So, since you do this, I am sure you can also see why others do this. You feel strongly that your sense of right and wrong is correct, yes? To the point that you are willing to spead for it and enter into contention with others, rather than agree with them and just be quiet?

Irish provided you with the quote you asked for. And you switched up the argument to say that that only shows that He listens to Christ. Well, yeah.... he doesn't exactly hide that, but I don't see what that had to do with it. You were shown how in our faith, we are given direct teachings by God that we do not follow the laws from the OT, but the grace of Jesus Christ, in which there are commandments. The commandments being not the same as the specific, numerous laws in the OT. You either can not understand it, or are choosing not to, I am not sure which. You have a habit of refuting everything in someone's communication with you, and ignoring everyone else's points.

I have no personal beef with you, bit it is observable that you are difficult to debate with because you seem to be highly emotional, with no willingness to listen to the answers to your own questions. This thread has been done to death and there is no new material here. I would have enjoyed speaking with you but you just have an agenda. Your volatile, knee-jerk style is just not something I am able to work with very well.

Yet those laws are still sin. You have to confess and let christ take those sins onto himself. You don't get a free ride because one day you say "Christ here you go!". Nope, those are still sins either way you want to cut it. Yes, christ will take those sins from you after you commited them but till then they are still your sins which you can burn in hell for.



I don't know, do I?



So where does Jesus say that homosexuality is sin? I'm going off your arguement now... That Jesus trumps OT laws.



More christians on this board. I post for discussion, not for a thread to be ignored and die shortly after it's posted. If there were more Jews here, I'd go for it. If there were more Muslims here, ditto. Then there's also the fact I live in a country that is heavy populated by christians that use the bible rightfully to oppress and disciminate. On the morality debate, I don't see the bible as being moral at all and then there's the factor there are more christians here for more discussion.

*snickers* Yes, I only pick on christians... Alright, let's say I only pick on the christians... Am I wrong here? Why in the 'verse is it alright to disciminate against homosexuals? The morality of christians alone warrent a massive question of morality. From the genocides, rapes, slavery, murder, and hatred... That's something to ponder about. But here I'm solely focusing on the facts of the religion that are being used every day to oppress and hate.

I'm not going to feel bad or be pushed into a corner for bringing up christian hatred in everyday life. You can talk down to me all you'd like and it won't do the slightest to me. You in your own little rant against me are trying to push all the blame onto truckers and the KKK... Well look at the bible and look at the majority of the people that are against homosexuality today. Not very many of them are KKK nor are they truckers. They're christians. Not saying just christians do it but on the christian side of the fence there are vast numbers that do.




So fine, let's put our morals in a cage match. The christian morality is backwards and awful and this thing against homosexuality is only a part of it. If that's what you want to discuss, start a new thread then.

Refuting is part of the discussion. It's funny to think someone can hand me a single verse while I quote entire books to you people but if I don't accept it it's bad but if you dont' accept it; it's part of your faith. His quote didn't make sense nor did it override the OT laws. I do understand it though and what he was trying to do.

Nobody is forcing you to post in response to my posts. You're doing this on your own free will, I'm assuming. If you don't like my style of being un-PC and being straight... That's really your problem. I'm straight because there is no point in dancing around it for a reason.

good post....i especially like the ("I'm standing up for victims of hatred, etc...") and using condemnation to argue it....very good and very correct....
when you open a question with hostility to right a wrong, then which is the greater wrong?....but as a believer i have never called for the death of anyone i knew was homosexual nor have i condemed them...but if one asks me what i believe i will tell them.....

randomhit10

I have seen this also... this sudden change in demeanor, facial expression, and tone of voice. And I have been with Christian friends who have forgotten I was not one just long enough to openly express their views on homosexuality. Needless to say, we didn't remain friends.



I knew someone who tried to kill themself because his Cristian father couldn't accept him - I think I mentioned him a while back in another thread. His father tried to beat his gayness out of him, until he couldn't take it anymore.

My mother's aunt was forever calling her nephew (my mother's uncle's son) all manner of names because he was gay. The chap's father was ashamed and embarassed, and I think he prayed every night that his son would find a girl and settle down. Eventually, in his late thirties, he did what they all wanted... he married a woman and had a child. Nobody gives a fig whether or not he's happy, as long as he's not an active homosexual. Of course, he's never stopped being a homosexual, so he's one bl**dy unhappy man.

Regardless of what the bible does or doesn't say on the subject, Christians all over the globe seem to feel that they have a god given right to discriminate against people based on their sexuality, and they use the bible as a tool to make their point. We can talk about what the bible means until we're blue in the face, but the fact remains that people who claim to be walking with Jesus are doing so while carring a bag full of hatred.

I'd be happier if the title was "Why does the Bible pick on homosexuals" not Christians. As a Christian, I see all people as completely equal, in fact, the vast majority of Christians do.

Now, the topic of why does the Bible pick on homosexuals would have been an interesting topic.

So as a christian, you think the bible is utterly false and irrelevant in the standing in the christian faith?

But don't christians follow it?? and claim it to be sinful??

Whats the difference??

Isn't hte 10 commandments part of the OT?? then by right, no christian should have to follow them...cuz they are part of the OT...not aimed at christians!!


hmmm!!weird!!

Not exactly, but I do not believe it to be inerrant nor is it the "Word" of God. Others might tell you differently, but that's their belief. As other Christians here who do believe it to be inerrant have pointed out... they don't hate homosexuals, they just see the "act" as a sin just like any other sin--no more, no less.

My belief is that if you're in a dedicated and commited relationship that is built on trust, faithfulness, love for life, you're good to go with God.

Interesting isn't it that the Bible makes NO mention of lesbian relationships at all...

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Christ said that we are all equally as sinful, so there is not much sense in highlighting someone else wrongs in order to make our own sins look less dirty.

In Gods eyes one sin is just as bad as another and we are all sinful in one way or another.

Irish

Being gay is also lesbain too missmels LMAO...two women being together...are gay

they just gave women a title...while the guys get called all the gay fruity so and so's under the sun

Good point, Miss Mels.

I don't think the NT trumps the OT. Christians often say the OT was written by God, so how would it be incorrect. Jesus said he didn't come to change the Law so according to him the OT law is still in effect. Christians have been killing Gays for a long time. They were used as kindling for Witches. During colonial times in the states Homosexuality was a hanging offense. I really don't understand the need to make Homosexuality a sin, it is not in my religion, but then according to Christians everything pertaining to my religion is a sin.

It's the laws that christians tout when they speak against homosexuality. *shrugs* If those christians are going to use those laws.. then it will be those laws that will be questioned.

Me thinks people just pick and chose what they want to follow

I have to disagree with you there. The majority of followers view "lost" people not as equals. That's what gives them such an ego buzz.

Could you point out, where in the NT does Jesus say.................it's sinful to be GAY

thanks

Me thinks you got it right.

Ok, let's put it this way... In all the places it is mentioned in the Bible that men aren't to sleep with one another... look at the context. Presumably even the men of S&G were married men for one, for two, you don't throw your house guests to the dogs to be ravaged. If you throw your daughters out to be ravaged, well, there are laws to take care of that (still really lopsided, but that's not part of this argument).

The other places in the bible where it's mentioned it's not mentioned without also mentioning the mans wife or intended. Ummm... if he's married, he's not suppose to be fiddling around with anyone male or female or sheep, that is a sin.

Let's face it, 2000 years ago, the vast majority of men were married. Why? To secure the family line genetically and for reasons of property ownership. I'd say that two men setting up a fabulously decorated mud brick house was rare because their families would have married them off quite young so they could produce a long long string of offspring.

It's my understanding that blasphemy is unforgivable

If two people love each other no matter what sex, then why would love be a sin.

Kratos........if you quoted the whole Bible, you would not understand what it means...you don't make a point...you just argue, no attempt to understand...you attack everyone who has an opinion different from yours and you twist what they say hoping to catch them in a trap...why are you so angry anyway?


randomhit10

Beause they have better fasion sense and it rouses the jealous beast inside all sensibly dressed Christians?

Maybe not...though I could be closer to the truth than you suspect. I think much of it has to do with an out dated set of morals. I don't see too many Christians being Kosher and following other antiquated OT laws.

Why is it when people disagree with the Bible Christians say you don't know what it means. Kratos can read, I can read, so may be it is you who doesn't understand what it means.

There obviously are christians that are stark raving mad. The God hates fags church and JC of Coast to Coast fame immediately springs to mind. Those guys are off their rockers big time and they all claims to be followers of the bible. If there really was a benevolent god he should at least smite them down. No, wait, I'll take that back. Instead I hope they really go to heaven. Only to find that their god really was a gay black woman...

But we don't have the holy spirit in us... it's like Heineken, it reaches the parts other beers don't reach. If we had that we'd see all sorts of stuff that aren't there just by looking at the words and using our noodle.

Well the bible says to put them to death. Normally when you want to kill someone there is a hate factor. The act is sin and the sin should be punished as it's said. Yet, there are virtually zero christians that put up the same fit over a guy trimming his beard. Honestly, I have never heard a christian speak up against beard trimming before in my life.



I wouldn't? Funny how I was once a believer... I know how good it feels to believe and how it works. I've read the bible before.

Then you missed my point... There are so many other 'sins' in those chapters that christians ignore but they pick out homosexuals as a sin against god. Picking and choosing to hate.

Angry? If I got angry over every little thing a christian did that I thought was wrong, I would be riddled with ulcers and probably be in the hospital right now from the stress. I argue against believers sure... But you argue against non-believers. Some twisted way believers can say whatever they'd like about non-believers but on that same table non-believers are suppose to be respectful and be careful what they say so they don't upset belief. I'll speak my mine... In case you have forgotten this is a Spirituality vs Skepticism forum.

Oh I see says the blind man.

the bible says to ALL that they have no place judging. if they weren't judging in the first place there would be no argument. if they understood equality and freedom for all there would be no argument. if they educated themselves there would be no argument. alas this isn't so.

what you have my dear boy is righteous anger. ( righteous anger just like jesus had according to one person.) the anger at the ignorance and injustice of another group judging and condemning based on a book they themselves can't follow.

ps - it was this same line of thinking that made it illegal for blacks and whites to marry until the very recent past.

Yet, christians do daily on mass scales while they commit their own sins like good hypocrites.

Oh, I'm a boy now, funny. If anybody is angry here, it's believers at the fact I'm pointing out the questionable ways of christians using their own bible.

Yes but when they sin, they repent after it so it makes it ok again....me thinks!!


As for me...im not christian but im not perfect either....I do say sorry...but goodness knows if I am forgiven or not..........meh!!!

For history of your faith? Well, it doesn't make you feel horrible about your faith after looking back on it's history?