A friend of mine has become a Catholic. Well, when I say she's become a Catholic I should say she's gone back to being one. She was raised a Catholic and then lost her faith, and now she's going back to the Catholic church.

I didn't know her when she was a Catholic the first time around, but I met her when she had not long lost her faith and she said many times that as a Catholic she had been blind, misguided, deluded, etc. She's been an Atheist for about twelve years, and now that she is going back to the Catholic church she is saying the same things about her time as an Atheist... she was blind, misguided, deluded, etc. Anyway, her husband is having a hard time with the adjustment - she wants to talk about her faith an awful lot because she's like a kid with a new toy (albeit one she's owned before) - and I can see that some of her friends are starting to put some distance between her and them. She met her husband when she was an Atheist, and they have raised their daughter, who is now eight, to have no particular faith, but she is now talking about raising her as a Catholic, and I know this is causing friction in her marriage.

I've had friends who've converted... from or to Christianity... and they've gone through varying experiences. But quite a few of them have lost family and friends when they've gained or lost their faith, and they've been very hurt. And this has always been a bit confusing for me because nobody in my close family has changed much when it comes to their beliefs, so we've never gone through any drastic changes. My grandfather was always a Christian, my sister always has been, my grandmother was always undecided, my mother's always been an atheist, my father's always been a Catholic Atheist, and I've always been plain old me.

A friend a while back became an Atheist after several years as a Christian, and she lost quite a few friends. Another became an Atheist after being raised a Christian and his own mother won't speak to him. Ok, he is an angry chap at the moment and not pleasant to be around... but she's his mother, and I still speak to him despite his temper.

There seems to be more fall out when someone changes their faith than when a person gets divorced. Is it because the person changes? Or because people around them change? Or the fear of change? Is it because we don't realise our friends or family are religiously intolerant until we convert to the faith they can't tolerate?

What do you think?

I am not so sure it is about change, I think it is more to do with fear - fear on those that are left behind in the religion that was once the religion of the person who has now changed.

Those left behind, fear for the soul of the one who has moved to something different, they fear that this person is now "doomed" - of course, what they forget is that everything regarding religion - or sometimes no religion - has different things to teach.

Some Chrisitan sections believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed regardless and that they are not saved and that it would be unwise to even be in the same room lol. This goes without saying that not all Christians are like this by any means, just the odd few fanatics - as, of course, in any other religion.

I think if your friend feels comfortable with the change, and at peace with it.... then that is a good thing and that is what matters. Seeing that she was once Catholic and then atheist, I have a feeling this one is for good. She has experienced both sides of the coin, so to speak. More than likely she will stay this way, unless of course she is a wishy-washy type person to begin with, I don't know.

another philosophically interesting thread shadow hill.
i think that when people change religion, beliefs, paradigms that to some extent they change...and people who thought that they know them, had connected with them and their paradigm may find that perhaps their connection was not correct/strong. its hard to speak in general terms.

i suppose it depends how radical the change is in the person.
you may have a point in saying that some folk's religious intolerance may become evident with such changes. The guy may have been non religious harbouring a dislike of religious dogma etc. i dont know, maybe its not the religion but her behaviour that he is affraid of.

a paradigm shift is not an everyday occurrence. some people slip gradually away or towards paradigms, but when one is switched quickly it can indicate some stress or instability somewhere in a person's life. clearly some sincere and deep discussion is required by the couple.
was the father aware of the previous beliefs of his wife? was he aware of the reasons for her discarding of it?
is he really aware of the experiences that has led her back to her faith? Does he understand what she does believe?
was their child brought up as an atheist? or with a secular outlook which has no specific beliefs?

there are lots of moral issues surrounding the 'conversian' of the childs belief system.

can you tell us more about the strength of her previous religious conviction....how deeply religious was she.
how convinced an atheist did she become? did her husband's beliefs have anything to do with this?
How religious is she now? is she an 'attend every sunday' catholic, does she administer sacrements? does she go to bible readings and discussion groups?
how deeply has she re-immersed herself?


this is an interesting topic for me and i have lots of questions...but ill let u deal with these first, sorry im gonna pester u with this one.
Im essentially deist/buddhist and have been practacing Zazen since i was 7 and im 31 now.
my girlfriend is catholic...attends church every sunday without fail, and administers bread/wine, reads/sings etc. I often accompany her and have no problem with this. She knows my beliefs and understands why i will never become catholic or say the declaration of faith etc. We have had many discussions about belief, and also what would happen if we have kids.

cheers shadow for another thought provoking thread

I remember several heated discussions about abortion (rape), homosexuality, even interracial marriages, & religion with my father. He just couldn't stand the fact that I had come to my own conclusions about important things, & that it was so far different than what he taught us. I don't think he wanted to understand me. He said to me many times I should have been "ashamed" of myself and I should "ask for forgiveness" for thinking like that. Times he couldn't look me in the eye. That does have a way of breaking you down- hurting you. I'm sure he prayed for me many times too, attempting to save me from hell.

*note*
Did he turn his corners when he was to find my sister (his biological daughter) was gay? No, he just blamed her being gay on my mother not being there-- and the whole homosexuals going to hell jive was conveniently forgotten about. Did he turn any corners when I explained to him that pa- pa (his father) was Greek, and he (my father) married to my mother whose father was Native? He said that wasn't the "same thing" as interracial. Ok, he excused everything, blew off things conveniently. I really don't know who hurt more with this.

(May God rest his soul, & Lord knows I do love him) but he was very stubborn, too set in his ways... caused a lot of pain a little of everywhere.

Fully aware, but I think he thought her change was a permanent one.



He understands about as much as he is willing to at the moment... he seems reluctant to learn more, but I don't know why. Perhaps he thinks the change isn't permanent... he's behaving as though he's expecting her to change back. I don't believe she will - she's not a fickle kind of person.

She went through a depression a few months back, following an illness, and she's not been herself. She's taken the time to look at her life and she said she's done a lot of soul searching to figure out what was missing. I don't think he can get to grips with the idea that she felt there was something missing in the first place... like it was his fault that she wasn't fulfilled.



She's been brought up like I was really... a person of no fixed beliefs waiting to go out and find some that feel comfortable. They've been really open minded parents, and they've always answered their daughter's questions about god as best they could. She's a very switched on little girl... and an old soul.



When she was an Atheist she told me she was a Catholic by birth, not choice. Her mother is very religious - an unfortunately very harsh. I think her relationship with her mother had something to do with her anger at the church when she lost her faith.



She was violently convinced at first. She had some terrible arguments with her family. But she calmed down, and being a mum made her mellow a lot. She was already an Atheist when she met her husband... he's not a strong Atheist and not very vocal. I think he's just happy being him.



On a scale of one to ten... six million. I've seen friends go through a change before and they've all calmed down after the initial surge, so I imagine this is just the excitement of having a new beginning - especially as she was depressed for a while. She goes on a bit, and I think this is causing much friction. I will talk about pretty much anything until the cows come home, but even I am finding it hard to keep up with her.



She's at church a lot, making up for lost time she tells me. She goes to meetings, because she needs people to share with... this makes her husband feel left out I think.



Coming from a mixed bag myself, I've never seen the problem with mixed marriages. My husband was very interested in Buddhism for a time, and he was raised a Catholic. He's gone through all sorts of beliefs until finally ending up pretty close to mine. I can't imagine it mattering what religion he became.

Maybe my friend's husband is worried that she will change in her feelings towards him?

I think youve got a pretty good handle on the situation, it is possible that she will calm down a bit before there's real problems, and her husband will come to understand that she hasnt really changed that much.
it seems from what you say that her vocal atheism was possibly a reaction to her overbearing mum, and that at a time of stress she found comfort in her the paradigm of her primary socialization.
It'll take a bit of getting used to for him, but if they are strong and sensitive to each others feelings they'll work it out.


about the other cases it seems difficult to generalise, some say friends come and go but family is forever, but that depends on your friends and family sometimes you make strong friendships, and some that seem passing...sometimes it is the strong friends that fade away and the passing ones that become constant.....attatchment is a funny thing, there seems no rule or formula for any of it. one thing is certain, change. perhaps its about growth and learning...
i gonna stop b4 getting any deeper.

Honestly I think its because when someone makes drastic change like this they wanna spread it around.

They feel like they have woken to "THE TRUTH" and so are certain that others are believing the wrong thing.

This is one thing I have noticed a lot and it comes across quite patronizing to the people who are just living their day to day lives.

Its not a difference of opinion really but rather a person "coming to!" and wanting to wake everyone else up as well....you know its like the "Matrix syndrome" and it really has nothing to do with the religious beliefs but rather the zeal of the new convert.

This is why you can see a lot of former Christians getting out of control and trying to ram down everyone's throat how wrong they are to still believe in God.

Or why former Atheists like to talk about how they were former atheists in a sense to be all knowing

"I know how you feel Jack, I used to be deluded and unsaved too!"

"I know how you feel Jane, I used to buy into that religious crap as well"

Its the recruiting for support of their beliefs and to me is a sign that the person really is on a high, like a person in a new relationship who thinks everything is wonderful about their new love.

"I just LOVE the way he burps in front of me! It shows how comfortable we are together!"

"Betty! I love Betty! She's so interesting! She can talk about ANYTHING!"

Flash forward a year or two....

"He's a pig"

"She never shuts up!"

Give em time Lowenstein, give em time.

I think that's very well said TrueThat... I think it's truly as simple as that as well.

My friends and family were quite shocked when I became a Pagan. It took them a while to get used to it and some never did. But as a Pagan we don't push our beliefs on anyone. Everyone changes from time to time. Her husband should try to be patient, she will calm down after a while. If their daughter whats to go to Church I don't see a problem. If she doesn't I don't think she should be pushed into it. Kids become what they want when they become adults anyway.

I think its interesting that you raised the point that there seems to be more fall out from someone who converts spiritual belief to a divorce.

My personal opinion to why i think this happens is simple.
I think religion in all forms weather you are a moderate or fundamentalist believer is created in a way that completly conflicts with rational thinking. Dispite the "positive" attributes of say christianity.. for example to be forgiving compationate etc it is still virtualy imposable for these religious types to co exsist peacefully with rational, free and logical thinkers.. it just doesnt work.
Logical, rational, free thinkers opinions on EVERYTHING change, and evolve with the times when we learn.. or understand something or a situation better adapting to the current climate.. . learning.. evolving..
where religion keeps falling back on illogical, supersticious, irrelivant writing from MEN who MADE UP THEIR OWN RULES in accordance to the era they were living in ... and to even apply these teachings to todays society is .. for lack of a better word.. ludacris...

i should shut up before i get banned or something.

It's funny how friends react. One chap I knew, when he told his pals that he had become a Christian they stopped swearing in front of him and wouldn't watch films with him if there were naughty bits in them. He thought it was hilarious, because he was still the same chap... still a red blooded male and all that. It took them quite some time to stop treating him like he'd joined the clergy.

Some people seem to go through what seems almost like a state of mourning when a friend or family member converts.



Yes. I think some of my girlfriend's other pals are finding her a bit much. It's like she's won the lottery and she hasn't noticed that all her talk about how much better off she is is getting to the poor folk. She means no harm, but you can see the looks on people's faces... like she's sprouted horns. And you can see already that they're going to stop popping in or 'phoning.



My friends who've changed beliefs have been buzzing around like they're on mind altering drugs at first, but it's true that eventually it just becomes a part of everyday life and they settle down. Although I have to admit that I am having a hard time with the ex-Christian Atheist, because he keeps on telling me how stupid people are who believe in any sort of god. I know he doesn't mean to call me stupid... but he is calling me stupid all the same. He has a lot of issues.

I think we get over excited about lots of life changes... a new house, a new job, a new baby. It seems like people have no problem with those sorts of changes, but have a hard time with religious ones.