Youtube.com Video Link (4:04 minutes long)


Interesting how these two "peaceful" and "loving" religions truely are. 2 billion people combined belief these awful things to happen against their fellow man. Their own family and friends if they don't belief... They're damned.

Don't worry non-believers, I'll burn with you.

"Smile... there is no hell" - I like that

Smile!
There is no hell.

Besides, I imagine there shall be a mighty lot of christians and muslims crisping enough for both of us. It's their hell, let them suffer in it.

So much for the benevolent god ideology. Benevolent only if you're in the gods favorites club. Otherwise, it's as sick and twisted as any human can fathom, when creating something higher powered, with a bearing of low moral character. Definately a man made institution. If there was a god, it would be impossible for it to be as common and vicious as we are.

I loved the K.Hepburn quote. Beautiful and so true. But, from the read of it, god disagrees.

Lets not forget people like Gandhi who, if the christians are right, would be in Hell right now because he was born in India and not in a christian country.

That's the thing, every good person, every world leader, every average joe, every revolutionary, genius, every kind person, every fun-to-be-around person, all are burning in someone's hell.

Very unconvincing claims! It seems wisdom REDUCES violence and egotism, not increases it.

Ok, for some reason, the video's only playing the first 12 seconds for me, and then it skips to the end to "watch again"

But I think in the 12 seconds I saw enough to get an idea of what the rest of the video is about. I guess Kratos has been kind enough to again lump all 2 billion Christians under the same flag with exactly the same beliefs about the afterlife. Good to know that some things never change.

Does the Bible not say these things? Is the Bible not the basis of the Christian religion? Then if you do not hold these beliefs, are you a Christian?

shuks i thought that this thread was going to be about a strange 80's pop band...ahch well.

Well, of the 12 seconds that I got to watch, I saw three slides - an introduction "the Damned", one saying that the Bible condemns non-believers, the third having a Bible-quote to back this up (Mark 16:16). The music was all Twilight Zone ominous craziness going on, and I'm almost certain taht the rest of the 3 minutes 52 seconds that I didn't get to see was about to say how non-believers are going to burn forever in eternal torment. Condemnation, rejection by God. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course (edit again - besides, Kratos writes in his opening post "don't worry, I'll burn with you"). However, there are other interpretations to the concept of hell beyond eternal torment, using the same scriptures, since most of them come from the book of Revelation, or Parables (edit, it should also be noted that the last section of Mark 16 also was most likely not in the original text). As I said, correct me if I'm wrong, but after the introduction I saw, i can't see the video showing anything but a hell of eternal torture.

I dunno, I never could justify the Bible being the basis of the Christian religion... some people though mistakenly think it is God (a lot of non-believers too apparently ). Grrrrrr. Frankly, the whole concept of Hell is pretty silly.

What you're saying makes no sense. If the Bible is NOT the basis for the Christian religion, then what exactly is? There's no valid historical record of characters like Jesus or Abraham, Solomon, Moses, etc. It's possible that they existed, but then again, St. Nick existed too didn't he? Go into a church. Ask them if they're against homosexuality. When they answer yes, you know it's because the Bible says it's wrong. How do Christians even know of Jesus whom they believe to have existed and been their savior? The Bible.

The Bible is co-dependent with Christianity. You can't have one without the other.

And whether you find the concept of hell silly or not, it stands that the only modern basis for all of Christianity says it exists, and is a place of eternal suffering.

I'm afraid it is not anywhere near as clear-cut as that. As I tried to mention earlier, every reference to Hell is in the context of a Parable, or a book of symbols and imager, such as Revelation. Outside of these paramaters, there are only two passages (from memory) that refer to Hell. Neither speak of fire and brimestone.

Indeed, if you look at some other images that the Bible uses, Hell is also described as a barren wasteland, as darkness and cold, and a place of death. It is only tradition that has taken the elements of fire and made a fiery furnace (as a result of Dante's Inferno, no less - a comedic fictional play).

With the different imagery of hell (only one of which being fire), and all coming from fictional stories (parables) and from imagistic writings (Revelation) can one really make a definite doctrine of hell as a place of fiery torment?

1: Is this what you mean by parable?


Mark 9:

43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands. 45 If your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one foot than to be thrown into hell with two feet. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’

Whether that's a parable or not, it still references hell as "unquenchable fires", which sinners will be thrown into. Does the "don't sin" context in any way invalidate that?

And what makes revelation so unreliable? It ended up in your God-inspired book didn't it? Was God too careless to get the correct message across throughout the full Bible? Or is it simply that a very large portion of revelation consists of God torturing sinners?

Maybe one can't make a "definite" doctrine of hell, but one can certainly ignore the scriptures pointing towards and causing belief in one. Tell me, did you ever criticize a parable that put Christianity in a GOOD light and suggest that maybe it shouldn't be interpreted that way?

Isn't saying there is no hell encouraging bad people to do bad things because they think they will get away with it? Do they get away with it if there never caught?. Im just throwing this out there. What happens to evil mass murderers for instance who kill 32 people and then themselves?

Actualy i would like to know if atheists believe in an afterlife despite not believing in God? Or Reincarnation?

Maybe some atheists do, but the bulk of us don't.

And what, are you going to try to brainwash people into believing in a hell when there really isn't one, so you can maybe make them afraid to commit crimes? If someone kills 32 people and then kills themselves (might as well have just said "vtech shooter" heh), no, they don't get cosmic punishment. Is that an incentive to kill 32 people? No. Humans have a thing called empathy, mass murderers lack that trait. It is empathy that keeps us from running rampant and killing, stealing, etc... not threats of hellfire.

It sounds depressing but, based on a factual view of the world, killing a human is no more harmful or horrible than chopping down a tree. But trees don't talk to us, trees don't share emotions and feelings like us, trees can't relate to us, so we don't care so much about the tree, we have no empathy for a non-conscious organism.

That was not what I had in mind, no. it is one of the few passages that refer to Hell and is not a parable. My apologies for making a mistake in my last post when I said that those two passages did not refer to fire. I'd forgotten the specifics *innocent*

Though it might help to shed light on this passage if I mention the translation of the word "hell". There are four different words in Greek and Hebrew that are translated as "hell". In this case, the word used is "Gehenna", which is a valley near Jerusalem where the dead were buried. It is used figuratively in Hebrew culture as a reference to death (as Jesus uses in this passage), but it is a physical place, not to be confused with the grave (hades/sheol). If there were more evidence to support a fiery pit of torture, then maybe this passage could be used to support it. As a stand-alone passage, I personally do not think it is appropriate.

I never said Revelation was not reliable. i'm just saying that it is a highly symbolic text filled with metaphors, imagery, symbols, numbers, and more. To use this text as a basis for doctrine is highly suspect, in my opinion, considering that there have been so many different interpretations of this book since the dawn of the church. Certainly it is useful to discuss, and somewhere in this book lies the truth. But i think it's been cloaked so far behind images that it's hard to pin-point specific doctrines (though overall it does provide an interesting and worthwhile picture of God and the kingdom of heaven). So i discuss this book from an intellectual standpoint, argue the specific interpretations, but ultimately I find it suspect to base a doctrine on.

I criticise any interpretation of a parable if it is taken beyond the point that it was intended to raise. There are many parables that would paint God in a good light, but when the meaning of that parable is not meant to be taken in that direction, then I will not go beyond what the passage says, and would tell a person that was using it such that while what he is saying may be a valid observation, it is not a valid interpretation of the text. Fair enough?

Regards, PA

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Matthew 5:22

I know that several on the forum consider hell to be eternal separation from god and not the fiery pit which the Victorians were so determined to send us to, but I think this is the sort of fire and brimstone stuff we're used to:

truth is no matter what you think or feel, what you do or dont say you believe in, Everyones gotta believe in something dont ya think? Would you say its a part of survival, and all the more reason to stay alive as long as we can, except for , due to old age.

I never understood why hell would use such tortures as fire, scalding water, worms?... as a punishment. Fire and scalding water are things that would bring physical pain, but being dead and the like, fire isn't anything to fear - seeing as it's your 'soul' going down there. Even if there were a hell, you'd just be meeting up with ancient greek heroes and ancient greek civilians

Besides, would you rather go to a place with librarians for eternity, OR, a place with all the bad party chicks for eternity.

Edit:

If you're already dead and made to wear a coat of fire, drink boiling water ect. Then... what is there to actually fear in hell, you're already dead so you can't die again, you have no nerve cells as your body has shutdown and stopped, so they would be no pain apart from drinking water that'll go right through you and fire that'll burn 'through' you. Remember, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger

This is a verse I strongly believe in. It basicly states judge and thou shall be judged. The first states that anger without case will bring you towards judgement, It means it is ok to get upset but it is better to forgive and forget. The cause is truely never justified, but anger is a natural response for being wronged. Christ states that anger for no reason but to be spitefull or to be just plain rude will be looked down on. Raca as far as I know means to be without God. This is considered very heinouse by Christ because he states that no matter what it is, be it disbelief or hate, God is allways there for you waiting to be in your life. The last states that one should not belittle anyone. To put yourself higher than someone or to put them down or basicly consider them lesser than you is wrong. Here Christ is telling us that we are all God's children and that we are all loved the same.

So really the message is to love your brother or as it means your fellow man and do not judge. The term hell fire is used to describe the severity of the punishment, not to mean that you literally burn for eternity.

Haha, the Bible is not the basis for the true Christian religion. It shouldn't be the basis of any religion. It's just a book.



Let me tell you what I believe. If you ever meet a Christian who says their faith is based on the Bible, chances are they aren't a real Christian, because in order to be a real Christian you have to know God. Belief is not enough.



Though the Bible should not ever be the basis for any faith, religion, creed, or doctrine, this statement is true. The Bible is necessary for the faith, just not the basis for it.

I agree with you here. In my opinion it is just like any other book, used for reference and guidance when there are questions.

Yes. Many lack empathy for their fellow human beings. I know that a belief in a hell isn't much of a deterant for evil doers. They may very well like the idea and heck it might even encorage them to do bad things seeing as how Satan is down there. They are probably looking forword to meeting him or something.Humans have more worth then a tree though. Surely you have more empathy for a human then a tree. I can understand more feelings towords a pet cat or something but a tree?

No, you see, what I said, is that to the unbiased observer of nature.. humans are worth no more than a tree. I have more empathy for a human than for a tree, because I am a human and I know the double-edged sword of consciousness. I know what human suffering and pain is like. A tree is inanimate so I can't have empathy for it. But just because we as humans like other humans, doesn't mean humans are truly any better or more useful to the earth than trees. So from a non-human point of view, someone who kills 32 cattle is sick, someone who cuts down 32 trees is sick, steps on 32 blades of grass, just as that human who killed 32 other humans is sick. We as humans naturally hold a level of self-importance, but we aren't important to nature, nature will take its course with or without humans.

And then there's just the fact that again, mass murderers are not afraid of going to hell as you said. If I remember right, the brain matter makeup of a psychopath causes him to lean away from supernatural beliefs (I'm not at all trying to say disbelief causes psychopathy! It's just one trait that psychopaths have.)

well, bible isn't here to take it literary, it's more metaphorical. i think that god didn't give all at face value, because man should get to know god through wisdom, not because someone wrote something in some book or website.

The video wouldn't play for me so when in Rome..................there is no hell lol

I love the fact you ignored my post and the fact you didn't see the full video so now you're assuming. I guess you took your opinion on faith.

Firstly I stated that "how these two "peaceful" and "loving" religions", k? The video is talking about the christian religion and the muslim religion.

As to the afterlife, either way you want to cut it hell is a punishment for not playing worship with an all mighty and all powerful but very (seemly) lonely god.

The video is just pointing out how much moral atheism is compared to such hateful and awful ideas of religion, using religion's own words against it. If you want to see little unbelieving children, women and men be tortured or punished in anyway just for not believing in (pick your god(s) and/or goddess(es) here) that's just immoral and against your fellow man. That makes you a bad human being but a great believer.

No, it isn't. Hell is exactly what you want. Hell is eternal separation from God. I think that hell will not be a fire brimstone place with all the torture. I think hell will be exactly like Earth except a few things will be different:
1. You'll know that God is real.
2. God won't have anything to do with you.
3. All the Christian people will not be there.
4. The Earth will be void of any good that would have normally come via God or people.


That's my view of hell. My view of heaven is different than the commonly accepted view as well, but this isn't about heaven. My point is, Kratos you would probably like hell. Just imagine the world without God (like you do already) and bam there's eternity.

Heh, you just stated it's a form of punishment though. The separtion in your own little belief is the punishment.

Punishment is a relative term. To you it shouldn't seem like a punishment because you don't even believe in God. However, to the Christian who loves and follows God, to be eternally separated from him is a punishment. For one who doesn't believe in God (like yourself), separation from a being you don't believe in would be like normal for you.