Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Questions about Jesus
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
Pages: 1, 2, 3
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Jor-el @ May 31 2007, 06:23 PM) [snapback]1703185[/snapback]
Hi cloud,

I've been a little busy these past few days but I haven't forgotten you, I'll answer you as soon as I can, which will be probably on Friday night or Saturday during the day. Thanks for the understanding. Sometimes real life takes precedence over the virtual world, hehehe.... laugh.gif

who cares what "Paul" says-he contradicts everything that Jesus said.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Lt_Ripley @ May 28 2007, 11:40 PM) [snapback]1698426[/snapback]
lawlessness ? well jesus may not have commited a crime but he instructed his faithful followers too do so.

Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him

Exodus 22
“A thief who is caught must pay in full for everything he stole. If he cannot pay, he must be sold as a slave to pay for his theft. 4 If someone steals an ox or a donkey or a sheep and it is found in the thief’s possession, then the thief must pay double the value of the stolen animal.
so much for the law.

let us note that, if jesus really was God, as the Christians claim, he would have known whether someone was going to ask.
IamsSon
QUOTE(cloud0729 @ May 28 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]1698221[/snapback]
Ya I have quite a few questions, but I don't want you to answer them all in one post so i'll ask one question here and one question there to save you a long post original.gif.

According to the New Testament, man is totally incapable of keeping the law and the only way for salvation is through Jesus Christ, and we are all born into sin because of what Adam and Eve did (Original Sin), but in the Old Testament, Moses tells the people this:

Deut. 30:10-14
"If you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?" Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?" The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

So why does the New Testament state that man is incapable of keeping the law?

Paul does not contradict what Moses said. Paul just points out that it is humanly impossible to actually obey the law.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jun 1 2007, 11:12 AM) [snapback]1704138[/snapback]
Paul does not contradict what Moses said. Paul just points out that it is humanly impossible to actually obey the law.

which contradicts Jesus.
Jor-el
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Jun 1 2007, 05:59 PM) [snapback]1704299[/snapback]
which contradicts Jesus.

Is it that you don't understand or simply that you don't give two hoots about understanding because it must be wrong?

I'm inclined to believe in the latter....
Vague
Why does an omnipotent, omnipresent, supergod need to die in the first place?

... and to create imperfect man and then blame him for his mistakes. siiiiiggghhh....


delusional fairy tales tear people apart yet we are still all one.
Jor-el
QUOTE(Vague @ Jun 1 2007, 06:27 PM) [snapback]1704339[/snapback]
Why does an omnipotent, omnipresent, supergod need to die in the first place?

... and to create imperfect man and then blame him for his mistakes. siiiiiggghhh....
delusional fairy tales tear people apart yet we are still all one.

No one is forced to believe, much less participate in a thread where belief is taken for granted, so why are you doing it?
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Jor-el @ Jun 1 2007, 06:40 PM) [snapback]1704364[/snapback]
No one is forced to believe, much less participate in a thread where belief is taken for granted, so why are you doing it?

Do you mean that no one is ever forced to follow God?? (in general)
IamsSon
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jun 2 2007, 08:21 AM) [snapback]1705518[/snapback]
Do you mean that no one is ever forced to follow God?? (in general)

I'm going to take a shot at this one, jor, if I get it wrong, please correct me. Obviously God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, others may attempt to force someone else to believe, in God, but really no one can force anyone to believe in anything.
Jor-el
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jun 2 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]1705758[/snapback]
I'm going to take a shot at this one, jor, if I get it wrong, please correct me. Obviously God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, others may attempt to force someone else to believe, in God, but really no one can force anyone to believe in anything.

Yes that is exactly it. No-one is forced to believe in God. They do so because something invites them to do so. Natuarally that something is the Holy Spirit. There are many that simply don't feel that call even though it exists in them. These people may even express their feelings in the way that Vague did but it just means they haven't really heard the call yet or are simply ignoring it.

What is interesting is that people will also go out of their way to express that opinion in a thread that is specifically for those that do believe, which is what I was getting at.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jun 2 2007, 06:30 PM) [snapback]1705758[/snapback]
I'm going to take a shot at this one, jor, if I get it wrong, please correct me. Obviously God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him, others may attempt to force someone else to believe, in God, but really no one can force anyone to believe in anything.

I didn't mean that God forced anyone..cuz lets face it, no one can prove God did

My question to Jor was simple and straight forward Joe....asking if anyone is forced to follow god = people making others follow God


I believe there are many cases that people are forced..mainly KIDS by pushey religious parents...some have had religion BEATEN into them, that is something neither of you can deny...cuz we know it has happened

Just because it never happened to any of you..dont mean it has never happened

PA told a story once, were a few muslims beat up a white christian girl and threatened to beat her child, IF she did not follow their version of God

heck I can post you more stories like that if you like??

Say the word and I will yes.gif

texasgirlheather
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jun 2 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]1705981[/snapback]
I didn't mean that God forced anyone..cuz lets face it, no one can prove God did

My question to Jor was simple and straight forward Joe....asking if anyone is forced to follow god = people making others follow God
I believe there are many cases that people are forced..mainly KIDS by pushey religious parents...some have had religion BEATEN into them, that is something neither of you can deny...cuz we know it has happened

Just because it never happened to any of you..dont mean it has never happened

PA told a story once, were a few muslims beat up a white christian girl and threatened to beat her child, IF she did not follow their version of God

heck I can post you more stories like that if you like??

Say the word and I will yes.gif


Well some people can attempt and even succeed at forcing some to follow their religion, and while it is a very similar idea, it is not the same as saying anyone is forced to follow God. Someone who is forced to follow a religion is really just observing human rules and rituals. Following God is an entirely voluntary personal choice.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ Jun 2 2007, 10:12 PM) [snapback]1705997[/snapback]
Well some people can attempt and even succeed at forcing some to follow their religion, and while it is a very similar idea, it is not the same as saying anyone is forced to follow God. Someone who is forced to follow a religion is really just observing human rules and rituals. Following God is an entirely voluntary personal choice.

I already know that Heather, I was talking about those who have had it forced on to them..mainly kids..and thats fact..it has and prolly still happens


It's not how religion is meant to be...you're right, its ones own personal choice, that I can agree with, but some have had been through a lot of torture to have it forced on to them...and I am not just talking about christianity
IamsSon
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jun 2 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]1706000[/snapback]
I already know that Heather, I was talking about those who have had it forced on to them..mainly kids..and thats fact..it has and prolly still happens
It's not how religion is meant to be...you're right, its ones own personal choice, that I can agree with, but some have had been through a lot of torture to have it forced on to them...and I am not just talking about christianity

You're quite right, BM, many people, in many cultures are forced to follow a particular religion, but like heather said, that's all they can be forced to follow the rules and rituals, they can't be forced to follow God. The scary thing is that they may come to think they are following God, and either end up with a very skewed idea of who God is, or resent Him. I'm sure many just go through the motions for as long as they have to and then get as far away as they can and they leave full of resentment toward God.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(IamsSon @ Jun 2 2007, 10:28 PM) [snapback]1706011[/snapback]
You're quite right, BM, many people, in many cultures are forced to follow a particular religion, but like heather said, that's all they can be forced to follow the rules and rituals, they can't be forced to follow God. The scary thing is that they may come to think they are following God, and either end up with a very skewed idea of who God is, or resent Him. I'm sure many just go through the motions for as long as they have to and then get as far away as they can and they leave full of resentment toward God.

Its sad though init??

Religion is meant to be joyful and love...and you have to WANT to follow it..........thats what i believe you and heather do..you love it that much, it works for you, and you get a good feeling with it, you feel its the best step forward in your lives, doing what you believe is best...........sigh thats religion or if you like following God wub.gif

Same with me lol
Jor-el
QUOTE(cloud0729 @ May 29 2007, 01:20 AM) [snapback]1698221[/snapback]
Ya I have quite a few questions, but I don't want you to answer them all in one post so i'll ask one question here and one question there to save you a long post original.gif.

According to the New Testament, man is totally incapable of keeping the law and the only way for salvation is through Jesus Christ, and we are all born into sin because of what Adam and Eve did (Original Sin), but in the Old Testament, Moses tells the people this:

Deut. 30:10-14
"If you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?" Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?" The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

So why does the New Testament state that man is incapable of keeping the law?


This is a hard concept to explain because it implies a knowledge of various aspects of scripture that aren't contextually apparent in your question. The concepts are faith and righteousness as well as justification.

Isaiah 64:5-6

5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved?

6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


As we can see from the above passage, there is nothing we can do personally to become righteous before God. We can be good, we can do acts of charity we can obey the Law of Moses to the letter but before God, those things are like filthy rags. They are insignificant and worthless to him. The obedoence of a person is not what is intended but rather that that obedience be in that persons heart.

Thus when we read about justification or righteousness before God we are always presented with words like faith and trust or their equivalents.

Genesis 15:6

Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

1 Samuel 26:23

The LORD rewards every man for his righteousness and faithfulness. The LORD delivered you into my hands today, but I would not lay a hand on the LORD's anointed.

This why we say that we are justified by faith. By faith we become righteous.

Ezekiel 33:13

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

You see it is not our own righteousness that saves us but our trust in Gods righteousness. This is why the patriarchs of old were immortalized in the bible. The became righteous because of their trust in God. This what God looks for in all of us and looked for in the Israelites of old. It wasn't their Mosaic Law that saved them but their trust in God.

Mosaic Law came about because of this trust in God. It was the human foundation of this basic truth but it wasn't through the system imposed by mosaic law that people were saved. IT wasn't by obeying that law that they found righteousness in Gods eyes, it was because of their Faith/trust in God.

If a man obeyes the Mosaic law but has no trust in God then he is incapable of obtaining righteousness before God. Now, if we go see the verses you quoted we see tha exactly this point being made by Moses.

"... if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul."

Deuteronomy 30:10-14

10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

The Offer of Life or Death

11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

a. For this commandment which I command you today: The covenant which God made with Israel the (Old Covenant) was not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. Israel could indeed keep this covenant. God was not expecting the impossible from Israel when He expected them to keep this covenant.

b. But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it: However, this is not intended to mean that the Mosaic Law could be perfectly kept, and that a person could be sufficiently obedient to the Mosaic Law to earn a righteous standing before God.

Remember that the law was only one aspect of the Old Covenant. There were also the aspects of sacrifice and the choice. God never expected Israel to perfectly obey the law and find righteousness through law-obedience. That is why He provided for the sacrifice - the punishment of a perfect, innocent victim in the place of the sinner. In the case of Mosaic Law we find that it is an animal that is to take that sin through sacrifice and thus the sinner is purified or made righteous in the eyes of God.

God did not expect an Israelite to trust in his obedience to the Law to save Him (though God wanted Israel to love His law). God expected an Israelite to trust in the atonement made by sacrifice to make him righteous, and to understand that this sacrifice pointed towards a perfect sacrifice God would one day make through the Messiah. In this, a godly Israelite, in the Old Covenant, trusted in the work of Jesus the Messiah to save him even before the time of Jesus.

When we refer to the Law it can mean the following things:

1. In the broadest sense the Law referred to the first five books of the Old Testament, which are know as the Pentateuch

2. What is called the “Moral Law”,which is contained primarily in the 10 Commandments

3. What is called the “Ceremonial Law, which is outlined in the laws of the Pentateuch which had to do with ordinances, ceremonies, and sacrifices under the Old Testament covenant

It is the “Moral Law” to which Christ is primarily referring here in this verse as that which He did not come to abolish but rather to fulfill, and which man is incapable of keeping. It is also the moral law to which Paul was referring when he said that "no man can keep the law". The actual ceremonies of the law have always been inconsequential to God.

Do you know of any man who has obeyed the law perfectly and is justified by God for having done so? I know of no man who has done this past or present. No man is capable of keeping the law perfectly, which is what God intended anyway. It shows that only through our faith and trust in him can we obtain righteousness and this applies to both the OT and the NT.

Jor-el
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jun 2 2007, 10:15 PM) [snapback]1706000[/snapback]
I already know that Heather, I was talking about those who have had it forced on to them..mainly kids..and thats fact..it has and prolly still happens
It's not how religion is meant to be...you're right, its ones own personal choice, that I can agree with, but some have had been through a lot of torture to have it forced on to them...and I am not just talking about christianity

The difference is mainly one of perspective. Kids in general aren't forced to follow God, even if the go to sunday school they will all still have to make a choice to follow him or not at some time in the future.

True, cases of people forcing others to follow a religion have happened many times and are still happening, but that isn't what God wants, if he did he would not have given us the possibility of choosing him or rejecting him as he actually did.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.