"Then he (Jesus) said unto them (his disciples), O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken" (Lu 24:25 )
Is Jesus calling the prophets before him liars because Jesus did not fullfill the messianic prophecy?


"To you (Jesus) I (Satan) will give their glory and all this authority (over the world)... if you (Jesus) ... worship me (Satan)" (Lu 4:6-7)."
And later on in Matthew, Jesus says to his disciples to not resist evil, so if Jesus did not comply with Satan in the desert, does that make Jesus a liar?


"For Christ is the end of the law" (Ro 10:4).
Since I've read this along with the account that Jesus says to his disciples that the man of lawlessness shall be revealed, does that make Christ the man of lawlessness?

I've got more questions but that's all for now.

good questions, i believe jesus to be a prophet and influential man but not the song of god or anything "divine"
the whole concept of god and religious tradtions are ridiculous to me (i don't have a religion yet)

the contradictions there could be sort of a "proof"

Is Jesus calling the prophets before him liars because Jesus did not fullfill the messianic prophecy?

No, He is calling the disciples hardheaded...after all He had shared with them, they were questioning His body missing from the tomb...they were wondering what had happened to it....Jesus was risen just as He and the prophets befroe Him had said but the disciples were questioning what had happened.

And later on in Matthew, Jesus says to his disciples to not resist evil, so if Jesus did not comply with Satan in the desert, does that make Jesus a liar?

Jesus was telling the disciples not to resist evil but to focus their attention on the Lord...if you fight evil, if you resist it, then you give it power and you will probably loose the fight over time...but if you focus on the Lord, then evil is not able to gain a hold because you are not thinking about it...if you read the entire section this pertains, you willl find that Jesus did not argue or fight but He stayed strong in the Word of God (focused on God and not the fight).

Since I've read this along with the account that Jesus says to his disciples that the man of lawlessness shall be revealed, does that make Christ the man of lawlessness?

Jesus is not the man of lawlessness...this is the evil that tries to destroy the world and keep you away from your gift of salvation...this "person" will be identified in the end times.

i hope this helps...these are my understandings of these passages...

randomhit10

I think these questions are good examples of getting lost in the details of religion, arguing or questioning small points of theology, taking sides, thinking about various interpretations and having various opinions and understandings... If there were a God, wouldn't she/he/it be able to reveal its message for mankind in a way in which there could not be room for personal and conflicting interpretations? This is one of my criticisms of religion. If the true God chose to reveal itself to humankind we would all be able to understand it clearly and in the same way. It would be so simple, profound and obvious we would not be able to misunderstand it or to twist it to serve our own personal agendas.

No, everyone is different and see's things from his/her own perspective. Somewhere, there would be conflict. Not by fault of God, but by flaw in man.

I don't see a problem here. Luke 24 is providing the details of the aftermath of Jesus' execution. Verses 13-24 describe the sorrow that the disciples were feeling, the angst and pain. Then Jesus says to them (Jesus, fully alive after being killed) - "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (verses 25-27). Sounds to me like Jesus is saying that the disciples were so foolish and hard of heart to not pay heed to what the prophets had said, that if they really knew the prophets and scriptures, they'd have realised that it had to happen the way it happened.

Could you provide the Matthew reference for Jesus saying to "not resist evil"? I might be able to provide further thought to this passage then

This passage speaks of the division between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was based on adherence to the law, which no one was ever able to completely do. The New Covenant, based on Grace (a misnomer this, really, since Grace was what saved people even in the Old Testament, but it's the best term that can describe the New Covenant), was based on Jesus' death and resurrection, which is why Paul writes in Romans 10: Christ is the end of the law (Old Covenant) so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes (New Covenant) (verse 4). As to your equating him with "the man of Lawlessness", that's an interesting observation, which has some merit. However, the passage that speaks of the man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2 - btw, this was not Jesus talking to the disciples, as you suggest in your post) states that it is "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" (verse 1). It then goes on to discuss that they should not be worried or alarmed that the day has already come and they missed it, because the coming of Jesus will not come "until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (note, some manuscripts say "man of sin") is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (verse 3). While your theory is interesting, 2 Thessalonians makes it clear that they are not the same person.

Hope these responses help. By all means, ask away - we're more than happy to help answer any question you have

Regards, PA

Just to clear this up a little bit, I do believe in the God of the old testament. Yahweh, but I think that Jesus was a test for our true faith in God.

Mt 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household."

Isn't the Messiah that is prophesised in the Old Testament suppossed to bring peace, not conflict?

Also, where in the Old Testament prophecies does it say the Messiah will come two times?

First point. Jesus fullfilled the Messianic role as being the ultimate passover lamb. His second advent is still pending upon the earth.

Second point. Please provide the record that Jesus told his disciples to "not resist evil". I do not think it is in there.

Third point. Jesus was refering to the Mosaic law, and provided a greater and more meaningful law.

Right.

1 Cor 6:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body."

1 Cor 10:13,14 "There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: But God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

1 Tim 6:10,11 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: Which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness."

2 Tim 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: But follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart."

There are many, many more, but this is all I have time for at the moment.

The Matthew quote means that human nature and the devil's falsehoods will be slayed when exposed to the truth of His word. The light that is Jesus Christ will expose wickedness and leave no doubt, in the inward conscience of everyone, that good and wicked can not "peacefully" coexist, as in can not facilitate each other and be in harmony. They are not meant to live together; when you shine light on the things that move around in the dark they are exposed. The "peace" used here does not mean peace like everyone truly loving each other. It means the false peace that comes from people trying to appease each other and get along because at heart, they are growling and in conflict. Satan's ways sow conflict, and reap hate.

IOW, the way "peace" is used here means, false peace among people who try so hard to get along with each other that they forget what the truth is. False peace, deceiving peace, where people are content with words that sound good and are flattering but are not true. People for whom everyone getting along and feeling good is the ultimate goal; not actual truth. Jesus' light exposes the chaos in each heart, chaos that is of the enemy. So the truth of Jesus' word and light is that He will divide those who choose to acknowledge His truth, from those who don't acknowledge it and follow the tempter and the flatterer (Satan) instead. His truth is the sword that will cut through legalistic secular humanistic feel-good mumbo-jumbo (false peace that is an easy cover for the real chaos and vitriol underneath). So many will follow the feel-good groovy stuff where everyone gets along and everyone tells each other how wise and right they are, that His word (the sword, as it's sometimes, metaphorically called) will have an undeniably violent effect on the false peace of those who just want to get along and please each other and do not want to know the truth. But NOT a violent effect physically on the one hearing. It is not meant to say, "Jesus does not promote peace and wants to kill people with a sword." It is meant to say, "The truth of Jesus' words will cut through the popular consensus, which has strayed far from truth and will be shocked by it, shocked into inwardly admitting His truth, and forcing everyone exposed to it to either accept it or reject it." Jesus' righteousness, when understood and applied, claims victory over the enemy's (Satan's) ways.

It simply means, your heart recognizes Him when it hears Him, and His truth will not be compliant, quiet roommates with the chaos and hate that belongs to Satan. Satan's lies and Jesus' truth are of two wholly, fundamentally different natures, and Jesus exposes His enemy for what His enemy is.

There is conflict between sin and grace. They will rumble when they meet, they will not live in peace together. One will take dominance over the other; which one will, is the choice of the one who hears about grace but doesn't want to admit that they need it.

Glad you asked, this is one of my favorite verses, and a very misunderstood one.

Edit to add: I forgot to address the familial relationship aspect of the quote. It means that those who choose to see Him, will not agree with family members who do not allow themselves to see Him, and will no longer put earthly ties first. Those born again of the Spirit of God will follow a different family affiliation first. No longer will the father and mother and sister, etc... be the guiding force, although they are to be treated with respect. But they no longer have authority over the heart, the heart's ties and obedience will be given to Christ first, He is the head of the believer's heart, and life now. A man held in Jesus' hand will leave the ways taught by an earthly mother and father if they are not Godly ways. The man will set aside doctrines learned from the clan, tribe, or family, and disown them as the gorverning force in his life, to replace them with Jesus' truths.

Ok, but where in the Old Testament does it speak about the promised Messiah coming twice for his people, not just once?

Matthew 5:39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Why would Jesus say to not resist evil (i know people are going to say this refers to revenge, but why wouldn't Jesus just say, don't take revenge instead of, don't resist evil?)

Also, Jesus said to his disciples many times that the end was near, and some would not even taste death before he came back, so is Jesus a false prophet?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously. Thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Obviously the people in this time period believed they would see Jesus return in his glory.

mAYBE SOME OF HIS FOLLOWERS BECAME IMMORTAL?

This is a good question. It seems the energy of resisting is not good for us. Turning the other cheek is not a popular concept so to suggest its better than resisting is really saying something.

To say first, Randomhit10's answers are spot on.



Jesus is the Son of YHWH. Jesus is the test of our true faith in God and if you don't believe in Jesus then you certainly do not believe in God and can only be a product of Satan. You seem to be lost in your literal interpretations of Jesus' words which if you paid any attention at all would realize you cannot take everything he says at the literal meaning of it just as when he says this following quote.



Now, taking him literally, it would obviously seem that he was crazy but do you really think he actually means you should eat his actual flesh and drink his actual blood? Of course not. He is using metaphors in that the sacrifice of his flesh and blood is the means for people to be saved by their realization of his sacrifice for them. Be sure to learn quick because I can tell you with certainty that your current path is one that will lead you away from God, not bring you closer. If you believe in the prophecies of the OT then you will surely believe that Jesus is chosen one of which the prophets all spoke of.



You are simply misunderstanding. The reason he says this is because the fact of the truth he bears will not be accepted by many people and as a result conflict will arise because of those people unwilling to accept the truth which are the words of Jesus whom speaks in the flesh for God. It was never his intention for this to happen but because of the evil inside of people they will turn against those who believe the truth by their own free will which God refuses to forcefully sway. Jesus is the only chance at peace as he is the truth and the way which is really just another way of saying that if you choose by your own free will to want to do good, you will be accepted into heaven and will live in a kindgom with Jesus as your ruler where peace will be endless.

Jesus wasn't just some enlightened person, for no enlightened person can cure all diseases known simply by touching the person afflicted. They also can't bring people that were dead back to life after having been dead for days and acting like normal(permanent brain damage occurs within minutes). Jesus had power over the evil spirits because he, under authority of God, is the master of those spirits though they willingly choose to deny him. Jesus is also the creator of our galaxy and since his resurrection has been made ruler of our galaxy and is now awaiting the judgement which will destroy all free will beings that are evil and unfit to enter the kingdom.

I've been posting on 3 different websites to an answer to this question, but no one has given me an answer yet.

Jesus said to his disciples many times that the end was near, and some would not even taste death before he came back, so is Jesus a false prophet?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously. Thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mark 9:1
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Obviously the people in this time period believed they would see Jesus return in his glory.

Cloud, you might like this post I started a while back - The Five Comings of Jesus. It gives details of a possible solution to your question. It's fairly long, though worth it. Hope it helps

extended excerpt (the link gives a condensed version of the article, this is a longer version of the specific reference to your question):

The third coming of the Son of Man distinguished in the New Testament is his coming on the clouds of heaven. It is a coming which takes place within the lifetime of Jesus's hearers and will be recognized by them as having taken palce. Thus Jesus told the members of the Sanhedrin, "Henceforth you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt 26:64). Earlier in his ministry he had predicted, "verily I say unto you, there shall be some of them that stand here that shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom", (Matt 16:28), and in the eschatological discourse in Matthew 24 which we have b een considering, Jesus predicted "They shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory... Verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass away until all these things are accomplished. Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away" (Matt 24:30, 34). It is plain from these passages that Jesus expected with absolute certainty that the Son of Man would come on the clouds during the lifetime of his hearers. The imagery of the Son of Man coming on the clouds is drawn directly from Daniel 7:13 where the Son of Man comes with the clouds into the presence of the Ancient of Days and receives the Kingdom. This coming of the Son of Man is neither a coming into the world at Bethlehem nor the coming or parousia in judgement at Sodom or Jerusalem or any other of the "days of the Son of Man" but it is a coming to the Father. As Jesus said in his prayer before his death, "I come to thee" (Jn 17:11, cf 14:12, 28). He comes to the Father to receive the everlasting kingdom, to be crowned with glory and honour through his death, to sit on God's right hand asking, reigning and waiting for every enemy to be subject to him. The "coming on the clouds" is a synonym of "sitting at the right hand of God", and both stand for receiving and the exercising of dominion and sovereignty. In recording the words of the Saviour, Matthew uses both images: "henceforth you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and comin g on the clouds of heaven" (Matt 26:64). Strictly speaking the images are incompatible, but they both stand for the same truth, that through his death Christ has been raised to the Father's right hand where he now reigns. The authority and kingdom is given to the Son of Man. it is this which is indicated by the phrase "the son of Man coming in his Kingdom" or "the Son of Man cming with the clouds". It is symboloic languge to describe Jesus' receiving authority to subdue the Kingdom of Satan through the preaching of the gospel and the converting of sinners. The receiving of this authority is referred to in Psalm 110: "Sit at my right hand", and its exercise is referred to in Psalm 2 under the concept of the victorious Messiah imprecating for his kingdom, asking to be given the nation ofr his in heritence and the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession. Jesus told his disciples that as a consequence of his receiving all authority in heaven and earth he sent them out to convert the nations (Matt 28:29-30). It is through conversion by the gospel that Jesus receives his promised inheritance of the uttermost parts of the earth for his possession. In his prayer in John 17:2, Jesus spoke in similar language, that all authority had been given to him for the purpose of saving the elect.

*more to come later - got to head off to uni, don't have time to type out the article - essentially though, it's just expanding on the themes that have already been discussed. Watch this space for further details *

As promised, here is the rest of that section, if you are interested

*see previous post for earlier paragraph details....*

There is reference to this coming of the Son of Man in the clouds, that is to say, his coming to the Father and his entering into his kingship for the purpose of saving his people, in Matthew 24:39-41. In these verse the world mission follows immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem. Full weight must be given to the copulative temporal phrase "immediately after the tribulation of these days" (Matt 24:29), because the destruction of Jerusalem, the bringing to an end of the old order of the Old Testament dispensation, was the necessary prelude to the world mission in its full strength. Jesus had already predicted in parable that "the Lord of the vineyard shall come and will miserably destroy these miserable men", the wicked husbandmen who had ignored the prophets and killed the Son. Jesus spoke plainly, "the Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation which shall bring forth its fruits" (Matt 21:40-43). This took place in A.D. 70 and in the years that followed.

When Jesus first sent out his disciples with the gospel message in Matthew 10, he had confined them to the cities of Israel, for the times of the Gentiles had not yet begun. however, he predicted these times would not be long in coming, indeed the disciples would not be able to evangelize Jewry before the Son of Man came; before, that is, Jerusalem was destroyed and the Gentile world mission was launched in its fullness. "You shall not go through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes (Matt 10:23). The world mission of the gospel would undermine and change established human institutions. It would, in a word, turn the world upside down. This our Lord predicted in stock imagery, used in the Old Testament to describe the break up of social and national groupings. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give its light and the stars shall fall from heaven adn the powers of heaven shall be shaken" (Matt 24:29). In the OLd Testament, the capture of Babylon (Isaiah 13:10) and the destruction of Egypt (Ezekiel 32:7) are predicted in similar imagery. joel uses the same imagery for the prediction of the coming of the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28-32; Acts 2:16-21).

*the next segments deal with the next coming of Christ, so I shall stop there for the sake of brevity. As mentioned before, I hope this helps, cloud

Regards, PA

great answer...especially on the issue of bring "peace"...i see many people using this to claim a contridiction in the Bible...your summation of healing and judgement is powerful and to the point....

randomhit10

Cloud, you are sounding like those who are responsible for the murder of Jesus, tread carefully. Why not ask why he wasn't able to rebuild the temple with his hands in three days? People mocked him for saying that.



I'm going to be Cloud for a second.

"Well he didn't rebuild the temple, does that mean Jesus is a liar?"

No it certainly does not because again you are taking him literally. In reality however Jesus was talking about the temple of God which is actually the human body itself. Destroy this temple(Jesus' body) and in three days he will rebuild it(he will be resurrected).


As for the answer to your question from the following quote, I have your answer.



Paranoids post is pretty much right but he makes it way way way more complicated then it has to be. The Son of Man enters his kingdom when he is resurrected. You are confusing his second coming and the judgement with his coming into power when they are completely different things. The Son of Man entered his glory when God provided the proof that Jesus has the power to conquer death which can only be granted to someone directly from God. God showed that Jesus has power over all enemies as he has power over death itself and since his earthly ministry has ended and all of his tasks were complete and the Father brought him back to life he would then return to the Kingdom of Heaven where he will from then on be at the right hand of the Father.

You are simply confusing this with his prophecied second coming during the end of the system of things. He did infact return in his glory to those people when he made appearances in dozens of places after his death proving he is Gods Son and has power over death itself. He told people that the end of the system of things would not happen until the fig tree began to bear new leaves. the fig tree is Israel and since the days of Jesus, Israel was destroyed and not until 1948 did it re-establish(against the will of God) and start to bear new leaves. So since 1948 we can be assured that these are the last days before the judgement and the end of the system of things. He said these days would be like the days of Noah and that nation would rise against nation and famine(check), pestilence(check), war(check), would all be common place just as they are today in much of the world between all the wars and AIDs and so on.

I don't get it though, do you just read the Bible to find any fault possible? Sure you can find a few things here and there that might not make sense to you that might make you think the Bible is false but what about the literally thousands of things which are proof to its truth? All you do is concentrate on anything negative where as there are thousands more pieces of evidence which substantiate the words of the Bible and of Jesus. All he did was help people endlessly and if it wasn't Jesus that God had sent then the entire OT is a lie and God does not exist because no one else has come since that has made the impact that Jesus had nor has anyone else come and willingly sacrificed their life for the sake of mankind. Your doubt can only come from one source and that is evil and your questions are motivated by Satan.

How about the famous quote of Jesus on the cross when he says "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?".

Why not criticise that and say "well if he really is Gods Son then why does he think God has forsaken him?".

But does he really think God has forsaken him? No, certainly not because he knew this was coming way before it happened to him and he has willingly done everything he has done in full succession and never once questioned God. Rather, he is actually repeating a psalm written by his earthly ancestor, David.

Psalm 22(you'll notice the first line sounds rather familiar)

Why not take this line and say "wow what a man he was indeed to ask for forgiveness for everyone, including those that were in the process of torturing and killing him, surely he is the Son of God for who else could do that!".

http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jmrcls.html

There is a list of many(but certainly not all) of the miracles performed by Jesus. Why not use these as reasons to believe in him rather then using anything you can as reasons to make everything Jesus did for you in vein. He gave his life for you and you repay him by calling him a liar and a false prophet and not only that but you use Gods own words against him!

First of all I think you need to calm down instead of saying that "I must be wrong" or "I must not be understanding" and be open-minded about it. I understand where you are coming from because I was a Christian for two years before recently, I started questioning Jesus based on OT prophecies about the Messiah. I always thought that anyone who questioned Jesus and not believing he was God in the flesh was condemned and was going to hell if they didn't accept that. The more I studied the Old Testament and compared it to the New Testament, the more I found that Jesus was not the Messiah. He, like many others before him and after him, claimed to be the Messiah, but did not qualify.

Here is a pretty good article about why Jesus' death could not atone for any sins, http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html

I am being open minded about it, you however are not. If Jesus is not the Messiah then God does not exist because who else has come that has made the impact he has? The OT prophecies show he is the Messiah more then they don't and infact not in a single instance in all of the OT does it ever even remotely suggest that he is not. You are just misunderstanding the interpretations of the OT and are allowing your own faults to distance yourself from the truth. I'm not saying you might be wrong but that you are definately wrong.

What about him raising people from death? What about the people he healed? What about John the Baptist who was to pave the way for the Messiah? What other man has had another man pave the way for them? What other man had an angel tell them that their son will be the chosen one of God?

For every piece of evidence you think you can come up with to say that Jesus was not the Messiah, I assure you that there are 100x more evidence proving beyond all doubt that he was.

If you don't believe in Jesus then you don't believe in God. It couldn't be anymore simple. No one else has come so it cannot possibly be anyone but Jesus and I can't imagine how you can't grasp that if you have actually read the New Testament. Your motives are evil because it is your intention to malign the very words of God with your own narrow and inferior human mind. The NT even describes many of the prophecies from the OT that occur during Jesus' time such as "they hated me without cause" and "they drew lots for my clothes". If you knew God, which you clearly do not, you would know Jesus was sent forth from God simply because of the works Jesus did. All you need to pay attention to is what he did and not about prophecies.

I'm just trying to help you because you are clearly lost so don't take offense.

That seems odd to me because I started this topic because as of lately I have been questioning my beliefs and I'm looking for answers to questions I have not had answered yet. For you to say I'm not being open minded because I don't accept what you believe in right now, shows that you are definetely not being open minded on this topic.


God does not exist because Jesus is not the Messiah? That is quite the statement to make, and this again shows you are not being open minded because you refuse to believe anything that does not make Jesus out to be the Messiah. Why is it that people can't say that maybe the Messiah has not come yet? Jews believe that the Messiah is still yet to come, but


If the person claiming to be the Messiah does not fulfill even one of the prophecies is not the Messiah. If not a single prophecy was unfullfilled, then why do Jews not believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Here's a few things that Jesus did not accomplish:

Usher in peace, not bring war:
Isaiah 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Universal knowledge of the God of Israel:
Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

Building of the Third Temple:
Ezekiel 37:26-28 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

Descendant of David's side of the family:
Isaiah 11:1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots"
If Jesus was born of a virgin, then how is he a descedant of David's family line?

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance, anyone who tries changing the commandments or laws is considered a false prophet:
Deuteronomy 13:1-4 "Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."

John 9:16 "Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them."

Acts 7:37 "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear."

Here's some more interesting points that I found out:

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin."


Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.


The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.


Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah.


The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man.


Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

Source: http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabb...ns_messiah3.htm


Typical response I get when I try and have this type of discussion with someone, I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG WE'RE DONE. It makes me sad actually.

We seriously must be reading completely different books because your questions are all answered within the very same books. Do you have any idea why Israel was destroyed? Because the Jewish religious leaders denied their very own Savior and King which meant that they denied Gods own Son. Many of Jesus' parables tell of this if you actually paid any attention to them. Since the Jews denied God they were to be in exile until the end of the system of things where they are to live in other countries and be loyal to them. Israel was not suppost to have re-established but it did so against the will of God in 1948 and as a result the rivers flow with blood instead of milk and honey because Israel can only re-establish itself when the Messiah has returned for the judgement and the creation of his everlasting heavenly kingdom.

They denied Jesus because they were purely evil of their own free will. They even said during the trial before Pilate that the blood of Christ would be on them and their future generations to come who are the modern day Jews known as Zionists who are just as evil now as they were then. Jesus is God on all accounts in our galaxy but he is not God but however God has given ALL power and authority in heaven and on earth to Jesus. Jesus through God was actually the creator of our galaxy and planets and so forth and he is the LORD.

Joseph, Mary's husband is a descendant of David as is explained in the Bible itself. This is how Jesus is from the family of David as was promised to him by God but his birth had to be a virgin birth and the male DNA chosen was possibly that of David's bloodline as Mary was clearly artificially inseminated.



Yes it makes me sad that someone can actually say the things you say about the words of God himself calling them false. You don't seem to get it. You are ONLY concentrating on negativity when concerning yourself with the Bible and that is why you are trapped because you under the control of Satan because of your method of thinking which Satan can take advantage of. Every single thing you say he did wrong is actually just your own misunderstanding of it and you seem to be convinced that you are right even though you are not but it's impossible to convince you of this because of your pre-emptive attitude.

You are calling the ENTIRE New Testament a lie and the Old Testament a lie if you say that Jesus is not the Messiah. You literally don't realize the size of the claim you are making in offense to God so perhaps you should read and reread both books and every other holy book you can get your hands on until you are absolutely sure about what you are saying. Read the famous Sermon on the Mount over and over it hits you that only someone enlightened by God could speak such words. Even as a boy he amazed the priests in the Jewish temples with his wisdom.

Here this passage is especially for you.



That says it all if you ask me.

Actually I just found another amazing quote for you to read.

Someone say my name? Questions about Jesus????? Why not just save all the bother and ask me directly.

^ An example of someone who is evil and lost in their ways. He along with everyone else will be made to kneel before Christ. ^



The Old Testament covenant is no more and the Torah of Moses is obsolete. The New Testament is the new covanent and the gentiles do not have to adhere to the teachings of the Old Testament such as circumsizing.



Doesn't Jesus explain in a parable exactly why he is not breaking any of Gods laws? Jesus never changed the commandments or laws except for the false ones which the Jews, not God, had made. Every answer is provided for you and you deny the very words thereof.



Never does Jesus say he is God nor is he God but he is the closest thing to God and they are both in complete agreement with all that they do and that is why Jesus and God are as one. Like I have said, Jesus is God for all intents and purposes but he is not God as he is his Son. Jesus is such a perfect reflection of God that it can be said that Jesus is God in the flesh since God himself can't be human but his Son however can. Jesus was not born with supernatural powers but recieves such from God himself as proof of who he infact is. Twice in the NT God even says "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased".

God was around and existed long before Jesus came..well assuming he did come to earth...either way...God did exist long before that

Hmm, saying that everyone will be made to kneel before Christ shows that you do accept Jesus as God because worshipping or bowing down to a person or icon besides the one true God of Israel is idolatry.



False, in Genesis 9, God gives Noah a set of instructions on how to live which applies to all the Jews and Non-Jews (Gentiles):
1. Do not murder.
2. Do not steal.
3. Do not worship false gods.
4. Do not be sexually immoral.
5. Do not eat a limb removed from a live animal.
6. Do not curse God.
7. Set up courts and enforce the previous laws.



Such as the Sabbath, which God made not man, God also told the Jews that they had to be circumsized, not man.



Yes, Joseph was a descendant of David, but in order for Jesus to be the Messiah he must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. I don't understand what you are talking about when you say she was artificially inseminated so please ellaborate a little more.



I'm not calling the New Testament a lie at all, but more that it is evidence to show that Jesus was not the Messiah. I believe the Old Testament is truth and it shows that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Isaiah 66:23
"And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord"

Did Jesus bring all the people to worship the Lord, or did he divide the people?

Here are some verses that show that no one can atone for someone else's sins, this also goes for the Messiah.


Exodus 32:31-33
"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."


Numbers 35:33
"So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it."


Deuteronomy 24:16
"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."


II Kings 14:6
"But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."


Ezekiel 18:4-20
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."


Psalms 49:7
"None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him"

As you can tell, God is against vicarious atonement for other people's sins. Also, nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah will be an atonement for sins.

One has to remember that originally these books were not separated into chapters and verses. When verse 28 is seen in this light, followed by the story in chapter 17, we see that there were several standing there who DID see Jesus in His glory.

(Matt 16:27 - 17:3)


Same story, and as you see the verse in Matthew was placed in the wrong chapter.

You have to read the whole chapter. Jesus tells them the things that will happen which will be signs of His return, and that the generation that see those things happen will be the generation which sees the end.

This one is better understood if you read a version which is written more along the lines of how we speak and write today. I am quoting The Message Translation:

(Heb 1:1-2)

Every generation which has not studied the Scriptures and learned ALL the prophesies and signs and the sequence in which they must logically occur, ends up thinking they are the generation which will see the end.

Cloud, you are insane, seriously and I find it impossible to reason with you. Jesus is the LORD and accepting him as such is exactly what God wants. If you know Jesus then you have known God and by kneeling to Christ you kneel to God as Jesus was made the Christ by God himself.

It's very simple, if you deny Jesus you deny God. You Cloud, deny God and are an enemy to him and there is no way around it. You call the very words of God a lie and that is because you are blind from the truth. Get it?

Accepting a man who did not fulfill the required messianic prophecies proves that he was not the Messiah. Also, nowhere in the Old Testament does it show that the Messiah will be God, God's son, or some demi-god or whatever you may. He will be a normal man who will rebuild the third temple, usher in an era of peace, bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel, and will make evey human acknowledge Yahweh. Now let's see, Jesus did not rebuild the third temple, he did not usher in an era of peace, he did not bring all the Jews back to the land of Israel, and he did not make Yahweh known to every human because we still have agnostics, atheists, etc.

Ok Luminary, unless you can provide me with prophecies in the Old Testament concering the Messiah as being God in the flesh or a demi-god or what not, I still look for the coming of the Messiah who will end all opression and suffering. The real Messiah doesn't get two chances to get the prophecies fulfilled, they will be fulfilled on the first try. Also, I think I said this earlier in this topic, but the Messiah also has to be a descendant of David from the tribe of Judah. If Jesus was born of a virgin, then that shows that he is not a descedant of David because the male carries the seed/blood line.

The first question: Jesus was talking to his desciples saying, "O Fools, and slow of heart to believe all the the prophets have spoken." He was rebuking them for not believing that He would be resurrected, for that was what the prophets spoke of. The desciples didn't believe the prophets.

The second question: Where does Jesus say to his desciples to not resist evil?

The third question: Christ didn't personally say that the lawless one would be revealed, Paul did, in 2 Thessalonians. If Jesus is the fulfillment of the law (end=completion=fulfillment), then to be lawless is to not follow Jesus with the direct understanding that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law.

You are wrong and he did indeed fulfill every prophecy but your evilness has blinded you to this truth since you only seek to disprove God. His birth was to be miraculous and he is a descendant of David.

QUOTE

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27to a virgin betrothed[b] to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. 28And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"[c] 29But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and tried to discern what sort of greeting this might be. 30And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end."


34And Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, since I am a virgin?"[d]



35And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born[e] will be called holy--the Son of God. 36And behold, your relative Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son, and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 37For nothing will be impossible with God." 38And Mary said, "Behold, I am the servant[f] of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

QUOTE

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me." John 6:38

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8

QUOTE

Evilness has nothing to do with the facts luminary, if Jesus fulfilled every prophecy then why do Jews not accept him? Where is your basis that the Messiah will have a miraculous birth? Also, you cannot inherit a blood line, such as David's, you cannot "adopt" someone and have them be a direct descendant to you.

You do realize that even Jesus's rejection by the Jews and His execution are actually fulfillment of prophesy. Read Isaiah, and Psalm 22. Those prophesies described that the Messiah would be persecuted and killed.

Additionally, Jesus was the descendant of David, both through His legal father Joseph (as related in Matthew) and also through His actual mother, Mary (as related in Luke). Furthermore, in Jewish law, the adopted son, was just like a natural son as far as the law was concerned.

\

Exactly what IamSon wrote. This is proof that you don't know anything about what you are talking about in that the Jews not accepting Jesus fulfills the prophecy. They were evil and blind to the truth just as you are.

Regarding Psalm 22, it is one of the most misunderstood parts in the Bible, as i said ONE of the most, there are many more verses that are also misunderstood or mistranslated in the english bible. Here is a link that gives you the description of Psalm 22: http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html#_ftnref2

Please view these passages regarding David's descendant:
1Chron 17:11
2Sam 7
1Chron 28:5

Of course it is. It must be since it does not support your rant.

I'm pretty sure the scriputres were in Hebrew well before they were translated to english, sorry if I go back to the source of translation to prove a point.

Here's one of the English Translations used by most seminaries, (the New American Standard Bible (NASB) SOURCE with notations. The King James Version is a bit hard to understand by readers used to current English and so people may get confused.

"For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet."

Doesn't it strike you as odd that in the 5 places they use the hebrew word ka'ari it is used as, like a lion, not pieced, except in this one part?

I'm reading this from the New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance. The word translated as "pierced" is the Hebrew word "kur; a prim. root; perh. to bore, dig or hew:--pierced(1)" [word 3564b pg. 1536]

The NASB Exhaustive Concordance is a recognized proper text book. I would question how well that website translated the passage.

I also found a website Using Strong's Concordance, another recognized proper textbook, here is the LINK to the definition.

Strong's also has the possible translation about lions that you are talking about, but it does not seem to fit the verse. LINK

I know you're only 15 and may not be used to really doing research, which is why I looked for some tool on the web you could use since I could not send you my concordance.

Try to seperate the words of Jesus from Christianity. In his time Jesus did bring all people to worship before the lord. I believe his words were I come not to destroy the laws but to fulfill them. Render unto Ceaser what is Ceasers and to the Lord what is the Lords. We are all his childeren whether we believe or not.
It is Christianity in its present form that seperates people just as Islam does. Over the centuries Religions have changed according to the times. Truth does not change.
It is every individuals duty to sift through all of the debris and find the Lord. Seek and you will find. No sincere effort expended in finding the Lord will go unrewarded.

ALL flesh would worship, not just some. Is it not true that today we still have athiests, agnostics, etc.?

All flesh who believed...you don't believe. You are evil Cloud because you deny the truth and you deny Gods words just like all of those atheists and agnostics you are worthless to God if you cannot realize the truth. All the evidence you seek is in the very words you misinterpret. Like Jesus said, if you don't believe the words then atleast believe the works which he does which consists of curing sick people and teaching people and raising the dead and also forgiving people of their sins and also removing demons from people. These are Gods way of showing you that Jesus is indeed the Son of God for who else could ever be granted the power to do these things except the chosen one?

You spend all of your time trying to deny Gods words rather then believing them and you think you do work for God when you criticise Jesus but you are actually working for Satan.

If God wanted to intervene so forcefully in our lives he would do so. The fact that he doesn't should make you think about the reason he has for not doing it. Humanity can only grow emotionally and spritualy if they learn from their mistakes. Having someone constantly showing you what you do wrong will not allow that to happen. Just ask any son or daughter who's had parents that are domineering, they'll tell you it isn't the way to go.

Besides God is not a dictator.

Even if he was here for all to see, as you suggest, that wouldn't change anything at all. People would still reject him and rebel against him, that's what comes from having free will.

Cloud0729 - we don't have a video (or even a tape recording) of Jesus saying this or anything else. Jesus was not followed by a CNN news reporter who recorded what he did and said. So what is the point of the question? I'm sure you also know that the sayings of Jesus included in the Bible were selected. Maybe Jesus said this maybe he didn't. The overall message of Jesus, love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would have done unto you, is a matter of faith and not fact. It seems you just want to be able to read that you are right and those who believe in Jesus are wrong. Or could it be that you are after the truth!!? If so please tell me how you decide what is true and what is not.