bee, I was waiting for legitimate questions, rather than people that don't understand either Christianity OR Satanism make wild accusations about groups and faiths that they know very little about. Oh, well.

Zimbob, that was a good post!

Keithisco, wasn't it hard to trace your lineage back to the 1300's? It took about sixty years of work for my family to get back to the early-1700's.

And where did you get the idea that the original Templars (or the modern ones) were anti-Catholic? I've never seen it in anything other than anti-Masonic folks that make the same accusations as the ones I just spoke to bee about in the first paragraph...

So, my question isn't legitimate? I'm not trying to besmirch any group, i just wanted to know why the original poster decided to use the old bait and switch tactic.

Masons or Shriners....which one are the bad drivers?

Not to put words in Sardonis' mouth, but since he is a discussion board sniper (post and run), I'll try this one... again.

Supervike, your first post said:

And then you post this:

I don't mean to be a poop, but you didn't ask the latest question in the first post... and you have no other posts in this thread. I'll agree that the original poster appears to have used a craptastic tactic of posting something pretty out there and then running away, but please don't get upset when people don't answer questions that you didn't ask in the first place!!

But, to answer your new question, neither group are "bad drivers". If you read the last page, I went on at length about the Masons and Shriners and the correlation they have (you have to be one to be the other, but not the other way around), there isn't a "good" group and a "bad" group.

Nah, I wasn't upset at all! Just joking around. I can't argue with your logic...The quip about the 'bad drivers' was just a bit of levity because every parade I attend has those Shriners driving those little cars....You've done an admiral job fielding questions.

Awesome euphemism, its going to be my mantra for the rest of the day

Even though a craptastic tactic was used I do feel that omitting the Illuminate from this debate would have been somewhat constricting to the outcome and the topics discussed in peoples conclusions.

Hi Malruhn

It's taken about 30 years to getback to 1066 when my ancestors joined in the Norman Conquest of England. I was fortunate because my family were granted one of the first Coats of Arms which meant that heraldry played a big part in the tracing. (three fleur-de-Lys on a blue background, silver chevron).
I must clarify what I said.... NO way were the original Templars Anti-Roman Catholic, they were staunch defenders of the faith then as now. After 1307 they still believed and completely adhered to Roman Catholicism, they were expedient in NOT having their faith distorted by the all too human weak French Pope. One of my antecedents, Lord Bellasis, was even locked up int the Tower of London as a member of the totally discredited, and untrue "Popish Plot".
Freemasons are ( and I still believe this) anti-Roman Catholic, and anti -Semitic. Some people believe that they devolved from Templarism...this is simply not true.
Modern Templars, have no roots in the original order, but like to think that they are somehow "descended". They simply do not have the Provenance. And no, I am sorry if I gave the impression that modern "Templars" are anti - catholic, they will accept money from just about anyone.

If your family are descended from Europe then I will gladly help you to trace your family roots - NO FEE, it's a hobby.

NO, NO, NO....Do not confuse Modern Knights Templar with their ancient counterparts. There is absolutely NO correlation. KT history is extremely well authenticated, with Papal Bulls and the such - like. I will go into a very long dissertation of the KT's if requested. Modern KT's are a group of plagiarists, without knowing the context of Templarism. Masons are exactly the same. Having elaborate rituals to replace hard fact and Provenance is no substitute. At no time do "real" KT's, which number in the dozens only, have to "Enter" the Royal Arch. This is just another Masonic fabrication. Remember, KT's pre-date Masons by centuries, and considerably prior to the 12th century.
There is so much Masonic dis-information - the tail trying to wag the dog.

The Ark of the Covenant is also very real...

I'm having the same conversation on about four different boards - sorry if I didn't make it clear here that there isn't a link other in both name and wishful thinking... my bad.

are freemasons and scientology the same thing?

Nope. Scientology is a religion, whereas Freemasonry is a philosophy.

Before he made up Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard was involved with Jack W. Parsons who was a rocket scientist and part of the Ordo Templi Orientis(Aleister Crowley) cult which had rituals that were somewhat patterned after Masonic rituals. Hubbard used the same framework of the OTO to establish Scientology. A great book to read about the beginnings of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard's scheming ways is Strange Angel: The Otherworldly Life of Rocket Scientist John Whiteside Parsons by George Pendle.

i still think scientology may be an open subject as to what it is, some say it's a cult!, some say it's religion! who knows?

nice one! thanks for the answer

scientology is being attacked by h. keith henson; and his cronies.. as a cult...I think the powers that be have it in for scientology..

Malruhn, what exactly is the deal with "the Secret Name of God"?

Why is it so important to rediscover the secret name of God that they have a lodge dedicated to it?

I heard some rumour that when the original secret name is uttered by the three Master Masons, it will give them unlimited power.

Then lastly, what is the substitute name?
Oh, I also heard that each of the Master Masons only received one syllable of the word, so that they would all need to be present in order to utter the complete word.

wisa, this gets a bit metaphysical, so bear with me for a moment...

Some Biblical scholars wonder about the very first line of the Bible... "In the beginning was the Word. The Word was God and the Word was with God." Some have come to believe that the Word itself was the true name of God - the name "was" Him, and it was "with" Him, so it was secret, known ONLY to God.

Back in the day of the building of the Temple, supposedly we (mankind) had a closer relationship to The Maker. People up in the hierarchy of the clergy actually knew what was supposed to be the "real" name of God - but to keep it from being misused and abused, and to keep God truly powerful, it was kept secret. There are many cultures that kept this tradition of Truenames and the like. Even the Catholic Church still uses it with confirmation names, though the meaning of the practice has been diluted.

This part is conjecture on my part: So that the Master Masons could gain access to the temples in which He was worshiped, and to allow the work parties entrance to the sanctum sanctorum (Holy of Holies - Where God actually "lived" in the Temple), the Master Masons were given the Word to be able to use it as a pass word to get in. Kind of a "Hey, we're authorized to come in to build this section, here's the password," deal.

With the killing of Hiram Abiff, the Name could not be uttered - so there was no was to "legally" declare a meeting of Master Masons. So, on the spot, King Solomon created a substitution to be used until the real word could be rediscovered. Sorry, the substitution is one of the passwords, and I can't impart it.

In the Royal Arch degrees, the word is rediscovered - and uttered by the members - and it does take multiple Royal Arch Masons to say it. When revealed, the member gets all of it, not just one syllable. I can also reveal that saying it doesn't give unlimited anything... unless it is an unlimited desire to have dinner - but that might just be me.

Thanks for the answer Malruhn.

Have the Royal Arch degrees actually rediscovered the word, or are they still looking for it?

Then secondly, if the word has been discovered, don't you think something like that should be known to every God-fearing man, woman and child?

wisa, you have some good questions! Also, considering the nature of this board, you are also quite level headed!!

According to the RAM (Royal Arch Mason) degrees, yes, the Word WAS rediscovered.

Ahhhh, your last question is one for the ages... and I wish there was a good way to answer it

According to the RAM ritual, the Word is the True Name of the Grand Architect of the Universe (read: God). According to tradition (some/most say "superstition"), truenames have a LOT of power. The Truename of God was held by the priests for thousands of years, and when it was lost (question: why did the Master Masons have it and NOT the clergy???), it was quite a blow to Man's relationship with God. Now that it has been found, what is to be done with it? Each new person that knows a Truename (according to legend), it diminishes the power and ability of the person/being so named. So, following that logic, if lah-dee-dah-dee everybody knows the Truename of God, then His power is diminished and he becomes nothing more than a mortal man - or even less than a man.

Things of value must be protected, or they lose their value. If diamonds were as common as sand, they would be as valuable as... well, SAND!

Yeah, I know it isn't a good answer, but with what I have been able to research and deduce, it is the best one I can give. The Royal Arch degrees are based a LOT on story and legend and supposition and superstition... not hard cold, fact. This is one of the reasons that I feel that the above answer is a crappy one - because I can't base it on anything more than stories and allegory.

It's probably one of the sources of many/most of the conspiracy theories of the organization.. pure jealousy that everyone doesn't have the Word... but they don't understand the poor answer I gave above.

I hope you can smell what I'm stepping in, here, because I feel like I am trying to confuse myself...

The Knights Templar were "disbanded" in 1307, but you generously allow questions about them?

Good questions. I can only think it is "association psychology". By mentioning the Illuminati, he wants us to think that he is associated WITH the Illuminati. Should we be impressed? Naah!

Malruhn, thanks again.

Perhaps, the opposite is true...instead of diminishing the power of God, it will increase it exponentially. Much like group meditation has been shown to have an effect on things like crime etc. I think this experiment was done in NY or somewhere, not sure. (Google "group meditation prevents crime")

Perhaps what they are inadvertently or deliberately doing is preventing this world from being a better place.
I only mentioned deliberately as no one can say for sure their exact reasons for witholding this word.

Now, seeing as this is the conspiracy board...hehe, let's assume that they are in fact holding the world at ransom.
By destabilizing the world, they can achieve a number of things depending on who they are linked to.
For instance, if they were linked to Governments hell-bent on war, destruction and the domination of other countries, then this could very well be the reason for witholding the word. Those in power, always want more power.

I do agree - "it was quite a blow to Man's relationship with God"

PS: I would love it if diamonds were as valuable as sand. Then at least they can stop mining the damn things, stop people from being butchered (Sierra Leone) and it would stop the utter destruction of natural resources. I personally don't benefit from diamonds being mined and I think the same goes for 95% of the global population. The only ones who benefit are the ones who are in power and those linked directly to them.

I read the googled info, and although there was evidently a drop in activity - there is no way to show a corelation between the meditation and the drop in terrorist/criminal activity. It's almost like saying, "I stubbed my toe yesterday, and today Uncle Bob had a car accident -- they must be related!"

According to all of the sources that I have read, the belief in Truenames says that the more people that know a Truename, the less power that subject retains. To "destroy" someone, villagers in Africa would tell the Truename of their target to everyone they knew, and supposedly the person would lose all ability to ward off evil spirits, illness and would have crappy luck until they died - and supposedly they died in short order after their name was blabbed all over.

Your comments about the conspiracy part concern me. How would withholding the Word be "holding the world at ransom"?? How would this destabilize the world? You have me confused here... (If we both know we're playing at it, I'm more than happy to discuss possible conspiracies!!!)

Lastly, the diamond thing is truly a vast world-wide conspiracy. Diamonds ARE nearly as common as sand - and it is the de Beers conglomerate that has fed us the "Diamonds are a girls' best friend" and "Diamonds are forever" tripe. THEY are the ones that have made diamonds the uber-alles thing to buy a woman to show how much you love them... when a down-payment on a car would make MUCH more sense!

As with most things metaphysical in nature, you can almost never scientifically explain it. I suppose it has more to do with your particular beliefs on whether you consider it to be a coincidence or a direct affect of group meditation.

I haven't done a study on Truenames yet, which is shocking considering that I live in Africa and know the local tribes.
I think it's about time I chat with them.
The local tribes must all know each other's truenames, as there are tens of millions of Africans who have really bad luck. I see them everyday. They are struck by illness and die in the most violent and inhumane ways. Most of the Africans I know personally are in fact extremely superstitious. Of course their superstitions don't extend to our Friday the 13th, black cats or walking underneath a ladder. They have superstitions over things like ancesteral spirits, frogs, lizards, snakes etc. and of course the famed Tokolosh (mythical creature). Some of them are so scared of the Tokolosh that they place their beds on stacked bricks or tins to raise it higher so the Tokolosh can't reach them.

"Holding the world at ransom"...Ok, those words might have been used for dramatic effect.
We are all searching for a Eutopian society, well most of us anyway. In a Eutopian society without war, famine and violence the power players would have no power. Preventing us from knowing the truename of God, is in essence keeping us from reaching this Eutopian society.

Now, let me explain this on a more metaphysical side. My personal belief is, that by having direct communion with God, we would all lead more fulfilling spiritual lives, knowing exactly who we are and why we are here. Good Karma goes a long way and will ultimately lead to a better world if everyone was to have this great connection with the one true God, the Grand Architect of the Universe. (as you so eloquently put it)

More wars have been fought in the name of religion and even President Bush (Terrrr) thinks that God is on his side. Please note, I said on "his side" as I don't think the general population shares his views on war.
The sooner everyone comes to realize that no matter what religion you subscribe to, you are in essence praying to the same God, and by knowing the true God we can dispense with wars based on religious differences.
The point I was trying to make was that wars cost money, but it also brings power and money to a select few - the same select few who would not want to see a world at peace.

Ditto on car payments by the way. I am sad to say that De Beers originated in my country, however they are no longer run locally, as they have been taken over by overseas investors a hundred times more greedy than themselves.
Oh, you should try giving your girlfriend flower seeds instead of flowers...hehe, just keep a safe distance.

You are over complicating the issue. But you present an interesting presentation.

Explain to us the Vesica Piscis and the Crux Ansata.
Explain to us the relationship of Letters to Numbers and Number to Letters.
Explain to us the nature of the two cubes as opposed to the single cube, and how are they combined for form a stone (Philosophers Stone).

What is the relationship of the Royal Arch to the Precessionary Cycle? Can you prove that the "Serpent" as found in Genesis 3:14 is an allegorical tale hinting at solving the Precession period?



What is the Pi Proportion and how is this fused to all religious constructs?

Because withhold basic and inherent knowledge that is by nature a birth right to all peoples creates a world where people are stumbling to find a truth that you in your wisdom feel you have a right to deny, and in the process, you create a world of delusion as you have not allowed people to learn of basic inherent truths upon which to begin to formulate their foundations.

Furthermore, since "The Word" is "recoverable", the willful intent to destroy it so as to harness it is one of the great conspiracies going, and is indeed a foundational element of what creates the ILLUMINATUS infrastructure...

Now some of us recognise that not all can learn of this knowledge due to innate intellectual faculties brought about by spiritual development and willful crafted deceptions by academia; however, the knowledge should be free for all and wholly in the public domain so that parasitic forces can be dealt with through mass concienceness based on a moral and structured certitidude.



The "diamond thingy" is the literal foundational component. Its steps are preserved in various martial arts systems around the world, and in a couple of the more esoteric forms, these steps are taught by and headed by Masons.

But for now - let's learn from you so as to better understand what is being taught to the masses.

Shall we?

Indeed SOME of them have...but it is not what you might think.

No sweat, wisa. I just like to be able to give very easily understood answers when someone asks a question... and when a subject gets metaphysical or occultish, both parties have to have similar points of view to understand where the other is coming from.

When you talk to the locals, you may have problems, because there is a propensity today to downplay "silly superstitious stuff" like Truenames and evil spirits and the like. Most white folk/westerners laugh at stuff like that, so the locals may be loathe to discuss it for fear of being mocked. Good luck!! I'd start with the older of the people you know, as the knowledge of stuff like that is quick to be overlooked in today's society. And when EVERYBODY is having a hard time, then everybody is still equal... there are those that have crap luck for even the African folks.

Hey, I have no problem with dramatic effect!

We all want a utopian society - the problem arises when my utopia doesn't match your utopia. Mine might involve freedom, love and peace, while yours has spiders walking on peoples' eyes.

When you get to spiritual issues (karma), it only works if both people believe - kinda like utopia. Some (might I offer, "most"?) believe in some flavor of karma, but don't take things farther than that. I may get back what I give - but it won't when I cut you off in traffic this afternoon... that just "doesn't count..."

You will note that in ALL conflicts, both sides (except for communists!) believe that God is on their side. Hey, if He was't, we'd get a sign and stop fighting, right?

I do take exception to one thing you said - that no matter who we pray to, that we pray to the "same god"... some - dare I say, most religions, have clear descriptions as to who "us" is, and then most of these also have descriptions of who "them" are. If you do "these things", you are in good standing with the church - and if you either DON'T do those things, or you do OTHER things, you are NOT in good standing. Then they go on to say that if you are NOT in good standing, you are therefore, by default, working AGAINST us. In other words - you are a THEM, not an US.

It gets easy when you consider differing theological groups, like Christians and Jews and Buddhists - but it holds true even for the differing Christian franchises. Just ask a Southern Baptist what they think of Catholics... and ask just about anybody what they think about Mormons.

Your idea that we all worship the same deity is actually a very rare opinion. Especially when you throw in the different faiths like Islam, Satanism and Hinduism... That's when the walls come up. "Oh, I meant all Christian religions!" I highly doubt we could gather up more than about 100,000 people GLOBALLY that would say that it doesn't matter who you pray to, that they are all the same.

de Beers still runs their own company - it is Dutch. It may not have its HQ in South Africa, but the family still runs it.

If I actually had a girlfriend to which to give flowers - or seeds, my wife would be more than upset.

Very interesting

Malruhn,

- Many conspiracists claim that there is actually a Freemasonry within Freemasonry, e.g. that the official Freemasonry (we all know & love ) is more or less a toothless gents club with a penchant for fancy symbolism, and that the real guys with power ( and all sorts of world-meddling agendas) are super-super secretive, and hidden even from them. What say you to this, and, if you reply in the negative, which I suspect, how can you be sure it is so, and you're not being duped like the rest of us?

- Are the CT-ist's claims true, that certain Masonic symbols have been integrated into certain US monuments/layouts ? What about the famous eye & pyramid on the US dollar bill? Just silly fantasies?

- What attracted/attracts you to Masonry?

- How do you feel about/justify Freemasonry excluding women? Gathering from your comments (Karma, etc) you have a 'wholistic'/esoteric approach to the universe. So how does excluding the complementary principle of creation fit in ?

To be honest with you I tend to find that the Masons I know who have been a mason for a greater amount of time tend to be much more relaxed, they don’t really seem to pull rank on each other either, they all take it in turns getting the beers in

Why cant men have something that they want to keep male only, blokes don’t want to go to a Body Shop or Anne Summers party, I think Malruhn mentioned that this exclusion of women has been amended and some lodges have compromises in place to keep the women happy.

im all a little bit confused about the whole freemason thing but everyone just keep on asking questions. this is getting interesting.

Why would you not want to be the guy with the false mason number plates. what would happen to him , you made it sound ominus.
public beating, bricks through his house windo, accidenti bizzaro..

Well, the CT'ers are wrong... kinda. While I will argue the toothless comment... cuz I've seen lots of both real AND fake chompers... there are different levels of Freemasonry. I look at it more like school than anything else, even though there isn't a requirement to continue through the different groups in Freemasonry as it is required to continue school. You learn all sorts of stuff in primary school as a young kid - like the Blue Lodge. If you continue, you learn more and different thing that you didn't had you stopped at the earlier level.

In Freemasonry, you learn the story of the murder of Grand Master Hiram Abiff, and the loss of the Word. In the Royal Arch degrees, you learn how the Word was recovered - and what was done with the Word after the rediscovery. In the Templar degrees, you learn of the support of the Templars for the Second Coming of the Christ. The higher degrees have information and ritual that is both unavailable and unknown to the lower degrees. I initially thought it was a bit funny that after I went through the Royal Arch degrees that we had to "play the game" and not use the Word in the ritual work... and still had to use the Substitute. Then I realized that that was the way it was SUPPOSED to be - that teachers don't discuss chemistry with eight year olds... as they haven't had the basis for it.

So, in a nut-shell, I guess there is a Freemasonry within Freemasonry. To date, though, I have seen nothing to suggest any flavor of evil cabal or anything other than benevolence and altruistic intentions.
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The pyramid/eye thing and other alleged symbols of Freemasonry in society is nothing more than paranoid thinking. The designers of the dollar bill wanted some symbol that would represent the United States that really MEANT something. A suggestion of how long the idea of democracy would last was made, and someone else said, "What about one of the Seven Wonders?" They decided on a pyramid, because they have lasted thousands of years and EVERYBODY knows about them. To add to the symbolism, they left the capstone off to symbolize that the Union was unfinished - which America is, because we still evolve with every new law and standard. Then the idea of placing the "All Seeing Eye" above it all, to symbolize that God is watching our actions, so we'd better make sure that we do a good job in developing our nation.

The other things that I've seen, like the allegedly "obvious" masonic figures in Washington DC, are laughable. If you have a bias, you can see evidence in anything. I did a pretty good mocking of DC with some color vision patterns and pictures of stars, railroad tracks and Snoopy. I also took the same tact with a DC map, and instead of Masonic symbols, I found axes, bombs, arrows and another Snoopy dog. If you wanna see symbolism in something - you can - no matter what you look at.
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What attracted me to Freemasonry? The basest of reasons - friendship. I am in the military, and travel all over the world. I am also a bit shy in person, and have problems approaching people unless we share common interests. I was already a member of the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars), and, while I like the organization, I didn't like the practice of just having meetings to drink and smoke and get away from our wives. So I started to look for another group to join that actually did some good in the community. I started checking out Freemasonry as an option, and outside of some really whacked-out theories set out by CT'ers (that I was unable to find ANY evidence to support), I liked what they did. Over $2,000,000 given in charity every DAY... Shriner's Children's hospitals... eye disease research - AND they were worldwide. No matter where I went, I was bound to find someone with which I shared a common interest.

I was sold.

The day of my Master Mason degree - the day I officially became a full-fledged Master Mason, we did a little business meeting after the ritual (and before the meal was ready!!). First on the agenda was the announcement that the 5 year old kid of a member's neighbor had pulled a pot of chili off the stove - and had burns all over his body. We solicited for donations to help the family in the short-run, and as a guy (I found out he was a Shriner) grabbed his cell phone, we collected over $2000 in cash. By the time we were ready to eat, the Shriner gets a call back, and announces to the guys that the kid has been accepted at the local Shriner's Hospital and an ambulance would be dispatched within the hour to pick him up. For those that don't know, Shriner's Hospitals are free... for a kid that had WELL over $100,000 worth of medical treatments in his future. When his astounded father asked why we would do something like that, his neighbor just said, "It's what we do." Two years later, I was there for the ritual work when the kid's dad when he became a Master Mason. Yeah, the story is sickeningly sweet, but I was there - and it helped justify my joining.

In my travels, I go all over the nation and world, and have found friends everywhere I went, from NYC to Baumberg Germany, to Shannon Ireland, to Sicily, to Montgomery, Alabama. I even got to take part in a special meeting in Iraq back in 2003. Where the Tyler (door guard) usually has a ceremonial sword to do his job, ours had a .50 caliber machine gun.

I like the fact that I can travel somewhere where I know nobody, make a phone call and have falling all over themselves as they make sure I am comfortable - offering to act as drivers, making sure I know where the local mall is, and what meetings are being held that day - in case I want to attend. Then, when I am home, I get calls to let me know about a travelling brother, and I get to offer to act as driver, and I get to show him around town, and I get to invite him to meetings to show off our ritual work or dinner preparers... I guess my comments about karma to wisa were spot on.
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I don't have a problem with the exclusion of women from Freemasonry... just like I don't have a problem with the exclusion of men from any of their groups. Orgainzations are set up all the time - some include - some exclude. It doesn't bother me either way. What DOES bother me is parsing descriptions - like the stricture of "All men are equal" in Freemasonry - and then some (rare) jurisdictions excluding some men according to the color of their skin... THAT bothers the heck out of me, and I actively campaign to end it. I personally believe that it will change within the next five to ten years. It isn't the exclusion that bothers me - it is the act of ignoring the RULE and the double standard that bothers me. I'm a big, "One Standard" kinda guy and don't like "special" rules, especially when they are in direct opposition to what the rules actually say. Can I get off my soapbox now?

We have a rule in Freemasonry that we don't discuss religion in Lodge. After the initial questions as to whether a candidate believes in a deity, and then what volume of Sacred Law (holy book) they use (so it can be used in the ritual work), religion isn't discussed again. My personal approach (since you asked), is that, I am actually a creationist - that believes that after the big creation incident, the universe was left to its own devices and watched from afar. This interpretation allows my acceptance of evolution without a problem. I am also a big believer in karma - you reap what you sow - and you get what you deserve. It may take a while to catch up to you, but you'll get whatever you deserve in the end. I very gently take Christianity as a "chosen religion" because I haven't found anything better as of yet - though I have ALWAYS been looking. I am a chronic skeptic, so I question EVERYTHING until I find an answer I am comfortable with, then I still accept questions and criticisms of that answer in case it isn't the BEST answer.

Howzat for a theology? Did I answer your question?
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Louie, the reason I said that I pitied the faker is because I could see a huge public row and public humiliation of the poser. I'm not talking brass-knuckles in a back-alley, but lots of yelling and screaming, and possibly a letter-writing campaign to get the license plates taken away... letters to the editor of the local paper and the like. I don't really know, because I have never seen anyone pose as a Freemason. I tend to be non-confrontational, and the idea of someone telling me that I was a poser would embarass me to DEATH, so that's why I made it sound so horrible.

Malruhn,

Thanks a lot for your candour & effort to answer my questions. I think this is a great thread, by the way; Very interesting, honest, mature & without the usualy bickering-wars. I like your humour too !

I am sorry that zimbob finds my questions so trivial & unoriginal. I'm sure they must be boring from your perspective. But this is the first time I got the chance to ask a 'proper' Freemason, and I like to hear things from the horse's mouth. So I got the obvious questions out of the way...

The reason I asked about women & Freemasonry was in an 'esoteric' context, as thi is my interest, not because I'm miffed I'm excluded....(well, just a little bit....no, not really..... )

Thanks again for your answers, and I'll try to come up with some more interesting questions!

you are right Bee... the Freemasons are a relatively new "order" of keepers of the sacred trust, they have no "mysterious" knowledge, they keep going on about their links with the Knights Templar because it adds credence to their culturally shallow belief system. There are no links between "Masons" "The Temple" or Templarism.
I am tired of their attempts to link their beliefs with the truly honourable order of Templars.

not really i know that illuminatti was found to destroy the god and religions and take over the world in the name of baphomet which is satan.. they were believing in a satanic religion called luciferism after 1780's Freemasons and illuminatties joined and they started to work togather they are still existed this is for sure but now their top masters are masons from high degrees...


masons believe in luciferism ass well, for each masons first degree they've been asked what they want in their life and they've told to say light which is sun god lucifer and 2. degree they tell more light without knowing what the hell is the light is soo all the degrees they earn they know more about luciferism and more about the light when they come up to 30. degree thats where the satanic rituals begins

Well, here's hoping that the answers keep coming from that particular end of the horse...

keithisco, how can the Freemasons be the keepers of a sacred trust - and have no "mysterious knowledge"? I've made it pretty clear that the only link between the Masons and Templars that can be proven is the Masonic group's name, and the name of the Holy Order from the 1200's, and that the only thing linking them in reality is wishful thinking.

May I ask why you think that the Masonic belief system is culturally shallow?

I'll get to grotto's posit in a bit... I have work to do.

I have to say that your knowledge is truly something to behold! You know stuff that nobody else on the face of the EARTH knows!! You "KNOW" that the Illuminati was founded to destroy God and religions, and to take over the world? How exactly would you "know" this?

Luciferism (a term that is rarely used), means something that I don't believe you understand fully. Try THIS link for some insight.

The Illuminati foundered and died a slow death in the within only a few years of starting - so I don't believe your accusation about the Illuminati and Freemasonry working together is quite accurate as well.

Yes, a candidate is asked what they desire - and they answer, "Light", but you have lost the context of the question and answer.

The candidate is led through the Lodge for inspection - then (in most jurisdictions), asked if he is willing to take an Oath or Obligation that will not interfere with his relationship with his family, his country, or his God. It is basically the last "out" for a candidate... if answered with a negative, he is escorted from the Lodge without comment. If the answer is, "Yes," he is led to the Altar, put in a particular position that was supposedly the position in which Apprentices prayed during the time of the building of King Solomon's Temple. He is then given the Oath of an Entered Apprentice - in which he promises to be a good guy, and to never reveal the secrets of Freemasonry.

Then the Master of the Lodge approaches the Altar and says something along the lines of, "Before you are in possession of knowledge, it is said that you are in 'darkness'. Being the fact that you are now in a state of darkness, what do you most desire?" The answer, of course, is, "Light". The first things they are shown, and taught, are the three great Lights of Freemasonry - the Volume of Sacred Law (in most cases in the US, it's the Bible), the Square, and the Compasses. The Square is is there because as Operative Masons use the square to make good angles, the Speculative Mason - us - uses it to "square our actions" and treat everybody fairly. The Compasses are used by Operative Masons to scribe circles and arcs and to measure - while the Speculative Mason uses it to "circumscribe our lives" and to use it as an ever present reminder that we should keep our passions within clear boundaries.

as in: Don't let your emotions take you to places from which you might regret the journey... keep the pickle in your pants, don't let flamers get draw you out on the internet, fight your addictions to whatever it might be (drink, gambling, donuts, TV, whatever), etcetera...

In the next two degrees, we are asked again what we desire, and we again answer in a similar manner.

How exactly is this Luciferism??

And how is it that you decided that Satanism is involved in Freemasonry, grotto?? Many years ago, I was an ordained Christian minister - and undertook a study of Satanism - that I might know how the "enemy" operated so I could combat him more effectively. To date, I have yet to see ANYTHING that was related to Satanism in Lodge, Chapter OR the Commandry.

Sorry, that isn't true. My bad.

Since Satanism, in its present form, was a creation by LaVey (who wrote the Satanic Bible), there IS Satanism involved. Satanism was created by Christianity - and since the vast majority of Sacred Books I have seen in Lodge have been Holy Bibles - by default, Satanism MUST have been involved. Since Bibles were there, and Christians created Satanism, the Bible was an oblique reference to Satanism.

Geez, I think my tongue hurt my cheek on that one...