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Bluefinger
Hello Everyone! I'm sorry that its been so long since I've posted on here. But I have not forgotten all of you. This thread is aimed primarily at the non-Christians. To be more exact, athiests/agnostics.

I've been wanting to do a survey to see what turned people off to following Jesus Christ. I will most likely take notes and use them in my studies. Your most biased opinion is welcome. I would ask that we not spend too much time arguing certain opinions, but that those opinions be pointed out. I'm sure we can argue each opinion in its seperate thread and that will keep the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum busy for a long while. w00t.gif

So, the first question:

What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?

God bless!
Never_Hit_Nirvana
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 05:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
Hello Everyone! I'm sorry that its been so long since I've posted on here. But I have not forgotten all of you. This thread is aimed primarily at the non-Christians. To be more exact, athiests/agnostics.

I've been wanting to do a survey to see what turned people off to following Jesus Christ. I will most likely take notes and use them in my studies. Your most biased opinion is welcome. I would ask that we not spend too much time arguing certain opinions, but that those opinions be pointed out. I'm sure we can argue each opinion in its seperate thread and that will keep the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum busy for a long while. w00t.gif

So, the first question:

What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?

God bless!

When I was younger and stopped attending church it was the oppressiveness of the rules. Even an incorrect thought could damn you. As I get older and study the history and development of the current form of 'Christianity' -- I use quotation marks because it is pretty obvious that Jesus would treat most if not all modern Christians as he treated the moneychangers in the Temple -- the whole idea of believing in something that was voted on, created and hammered out in political negations, like the Bible was, is just completely ludicrous. Look inside yourself, all the answers you will ever need are there.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Never_Hit_Nirvana @ May 14 2007, 05:44 AM) [snapback]1674075[/snapback]
When I was younger and stopped attending church it was the oppressiveness of the rules. Even an incorrect thought could damn you. As I get older and study the history and development of the current form of 'Christianity' -- I use quotation marks because it is pretty obvious that Jesus would treat most if not all modern Christians as he treated the moneychangers in the Temple -- the whole idea of believing in something that was voted on, created and hammered out in political negations, like the Bible was, is just completely ludicrous. Look inside yourself, all the answers you will ever need are there.



Okay, thanks for the response. Now, would the Bible's forming being a political negation have any effect on the book within the Bible itself? Are you suggesting that the formation of the Bible is a political endorsement? If so, I don't see why the books that were canonized themselves wouldn't have any value in the Christian faith. Am I correct to defend the applicability of the books without defending the reputation of their canonization?

God bless
JMPD1
QUOTE
What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?


That god, any god-any religion, would think that humans are so important that "he" would not only care about the day to day actions of a species but would manifest directly to them.

I do not believe in a interventionistic, judgemental creator who demands worship and obedience.
Saint
  1. The whole explanation involving creation and christiantiy as offered in the bible is too pat and simplistic
  2. Christians are judgemental hypocrites in my experience
  3. I can't see that there is any god sitting in heaven worrying about what we are or are not doing/achieving. Defies logic
__Kratos__
Quite simply... Immorality.
Never_Hit_Nirvana
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 06:06 AM) [snapback]1674097[/snapback]
Okay, thanks for the response. Now, would the Bible's forming being a political negation have any effect on the book within the Bible itself? Are you suggesting that the formation of the Bible is a political endorsement? If so, I don't see why the books that were canonized themselves wouldn't have any value in the Christian faith. Am I correct to defend the applicability of the books without defending the reputation of their canonization?

God bless

Because the books were also edited for content. They were edited and then canonized to support one dominant group's view of Christianity. When it started the followers of Jesus all had different books and different localized beliefs on how to get to heaven. The history of early Christianity was a history of warfare of creeds and 'heresies' even worse than the Inquisition. One version of God won out over the rest, codified their beliefs into one book, tossing out or editing any books that didn't agree with their largely Pauline views and the Bible and thus modern Christianity was born. The entire thing was decided by men and their political motivations. Even the epistles of Paul are largely motivated by his ongoing battle with the Church in Jerusalem. Thus, modern Pauline Christianity, which would be any form of the religion that accepts the epistles of Paul in their Bibles, is in direct defiance of those that actually knew Jesus best.
If that didn't make much sense this book explains and chronicles the history of the early church brilliantly. Lost Christianities
mako
QUOTE
What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?

Easy....the time line between the gospels and recorded history will not stand up to scholary inquirie. The whole story starts falling apart at the seams when compared with the occurrences of that period. That and the close similarities between it and the much older resurrected savior sons of god religions, almost makes it look like the common elments were copied on purpose! yes.gif
Bluefinger
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ May 14 2007, 06:08 AM) [snapback]1674101[/snapback]
That god, any god-any religion, would think that humans are so important that "he" would not only care about the day to day actions of a species but would manifest directly to them.

I do not believe in a interventionistic, judgemental creator who demands worship and obedience.


Would it change your outlook if you understood more about the Creator instead of what a simple mind could offer? Its apparent that worship and obedience doesn't make sense to you. Perhaps all you need is to learn more about what has been revealed about the character and intentions of the Almighty God.
Perhaps I could shed some light on this subject; from a 'Christian' stand point, ofcourse. According to what we believe, God is the life giver. Its written that the Almighty Creator breathed the breath of life into the man. This breath is what we also know as spirit; or spirit of life. With the application of this spirit to corpse, the union makes it a soul. Now, to seperate ourselves from God and cause emnity (sin) to stand between us, would only be to push the life provider away. The end and just result would be that we die. And that is our judgement. Its a judgement based on laws (or orders.) Einstein believed that there had to be a God, since entire universe moved according to its individual laws. The planets moved on their coarses and seasons changed, weather changed with the tides that changed with the ratio of the displacment of fresh water with salt water, ect. ect. The reason why the Creator demands our utmost obedience and attention is so that we not push the life giver/provider away from ourselves. It is to find a way to live with the Eternal One forever in peace. Before sin entered creation, every aspect of the universe had order and peace to it. Sin provided death, which is the result of chaos; which is the opposite of order. I know that this is drawn out, but do you see now why God went through all the trouble of demanding worship and obedience? It is apparent even today, that many lack the understanding of what the Almighty is and why He did what He did once it was already done.

And as for the first part, would it be possible that the Almighty that created us in His image is also as affectionate and relationship-desiring as we are? Is it then no wonder why He maniftest Himself directly to men in history and cares about our day to day occurences. Without mankind, in my opinion, the natural order of all creation would eventually be restored. What I believe is that the Father wants to walk with us, dwell among us, and experience the things we go through with us. Would you agree?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Never_Hit_Nirvana @ May 14 2007, 06:29 AM) [snapback]1674128[/snapback]
Because the books were also edited for content. They were edited and then canonized to support one dominant group's view of Christianity. When it started the followers of Jesus all had different books and different localized beliefs on how to get to heaven. The history of early Christianity was a history of warfare of creeds and 'heresies' even worse than the Inquisition. One version of God won out over the rest, codified their beliefs into one book, tossing out or editing any books that didn't agree with their largely Pauline views and the Bible and thus modern Christianity was born. The entire thing was decided by men and their political motivations. Even the epistles of Paul are largely motivated by his ongoing battle with the Church in Jerusalem. Thus, modern Pauline Christianity, which would be any form of the religion that accepts the epistles of Paul in their Bibles, is in direct defiance of those that actually knew Jesus best.
If that didn't make much sense this book explains and chronicles the history of the early church brilliantly. Lost Christianities



Actually, the idea could be debated. Are you suggesting that the Bible, in its Greek form, was edited before it was canonized? From what I'm aware of, the Greek Bible is very different in many places than the Latin translation. That would tip me off to believe that the editing (changing) of the words in the New Testament occured WITH the Latin translation, but not before. You are right that many Churches had different canons. The original canonization was canonized to fit the 'Trinitarian' view while dualism was still a prominant view among believers. And yes, from the 4th century and up, the Christian Church warred between doctrines and creeds. But beforehand, the books we use in our Bibles today were the same books that existed unedited before the canonization. Look for the time that the Sepugaint was translated into the Latin Vulgate. Thats where the subtractions and additions were given. We still have the Greek Church with the Greek translation to leave us with the earliest translations of the NT, much more reliable than the later Latin manuscripts. Would you agree?
I actually already have that book and have read from it. I've also studied A History of the Christian Church by Lars P. Qualben and found that, while Trinatianism and Montanism dualed out for several centuries, the books were held unedited in atleast several different occasions. The lost books of the Bible that we recovered from various places such as the Nag Hammadi Library and the Dead Sea Caves show us preservations of these books. It also shows in Christian history that Roman Catholicism was the only doctrine held. The Church in Ethiopia held the book Enoch I in their canon, which suggests that each Church held the books that supported their views, while tossing out the others as false. The books could NOT have been edited until ATLEAST the fifth century; years after the canonization of the Greek NT. If I'm not mistaken.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(mako @ May 14 2007, 06:29 AM) [snapback]1674129[/snapback]
Easy....the time line between the gospels and recorded history will not stand up to scholary inquirie. The whole story starts falling apart at the seams when compared with the occurrences of that period. That and the close similarities between it and the much older resurrected savior sons of god religions, almost makes it look like the common elments were copied on purpose! yes.gif



Actually, during the days of the kings of Israel; particularly David and Jedidiah (Solomon,) the term 'Son of God' referred to the king of Israel who was 'likened' to the concept of God's Son. So when Peter proclaimed that Jesus was the Son of God, he was declaring that Jesus was the rightful heir to the throne of Israel. Just a little more cultural history to consider.
mako
QUOTE
From what I'm aware of, the Greek Bible is very different in many places than the Latin translation.

Not just that...the variation between the older copies (4th century) are numerous and the variations between the older copies and the modern copies are even more numerous. Basically, they (the Greek and the Latin) have been edited and re-edited over the milennia. Without the authographs (original copies) there is no way of knowing just how extensively they have been edited. yes.gif
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Saint @ May 14 2007, 06:24 AM) [snapback]1674123[/snapback]
  1. The whole explanation involving creation and christiantiy as offered in the bible is too pat and simplistic
  2. Christians are judgemental hypocrites in my experience
  3. I can't see that there is any god sitting in heaven worrying about what we are or are not doing/achieving. Defies logic


Okay. Fair enough.Would would sound more logical to you? Would a universe made at the will of God make less sense than a universe that some how 'coincedently and very intriquitely' came into existence with a very complex order of life and motion?

There are many judgemental and hypocritical 'Christians.' But who is perfect? I think I would lose count if I counted all the times that men have used their scientific discoveries to destroy and oppress. Examples of such are nukes, abortion, biological agents, and so on. This is an example of when evil men take their knowledge and use it for their own personal gain. People do that in the name of Christ as well. And in the name of allah. And in the name of politics. And in the name of evolution. It could go on forever. Their are good people and bad people. Thats as easy as its gonna get.

Is it illogical for an Inventor to tend to His creation? Is it illogical for a Father to attend to His children? Is it illogical for a King to rule over no people? It doesn't sound like God being concerned with human affairs defies logic at all. I think we err in the manner of logic to assume that we, lesser beings, are any better or more emotional that the Master that created us in His likeness. It makes sense to me.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(mako @ May 14 2007, 07:08 AM) [snapback]1674210[/snapback]
Not just that...the variation between the older copies (4th century) are numerous and the variations between the older copies and the modern copies are even more numerous. Basically, they (the Greek and the Latin) have been edited and re-edited over the milennia. Without the authographs (original copies) there is no way of knowing just how extensively they have been edited. yes.gif



Now, by editing, or you emplying that certain messages were edited, or that certain words such as 'He, Christ, or the' were removed? We should be quite certain that the only translation that added or took away entire CONCEPTS would be the Latin vulgate, which leaves us still with the Greek NT.
The Puzzler
I think Creationism is ridiculous. How did God just make all this, maybe I find it illogical you could say. How a spirit could just make every thing on the earth is just crazy to me. That he made a man and then a woman by taking a rib from Adam and breathing life, spirit, whatever into it is even crazier. Then if there was only Adam, Eve and Cain how did Cain take a wife in the land of Nod, where did the other people come from? Did God just make them too? And they all lived to these ancient ages which is impossible. Once Jesus comes into it, it gets weirder to me, I don't think Mary became pregnant by God nor do I think Jesus died on the cross and ascended to Heaven. In fact he says in it when people see him he has not ascended to Heaven yet himself! And I've looked but can't see the bit about him ascending to Heaven. I have a Bible and do read it so I can see what Christians see but I'm not finding it, all I'm seeing is a load of fairytales made up long ago by people who had no other explanation pushing the Christianity issue. I don't believe because not only do I find it all ludicrous but I also don't like Christianity, Catholicism, Islam, any of them, it's fracturing the world and causes division among everyone, the sooner religion becomes extinct the better off I think mankind will be. And that's just my opinion.
Never_Hit_Nirvana
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 07:01 AM) [snapback]1674186[/snapback]
Actually, the idea could be debated. Are you suggesting that the Bible, in its Greek form, was edited before it was canonized? From what I'm aware of, the Greek Bible is very different in many places than the Latin translation. That would tip me off to believe that the editing (changing) of the words in the New Testament occured WITH the Latin translation, but not before. You are right that many Churches had different canons. The original canonization was canonized to fit the 'Trinitarian' view while dualism was still a prominant view among believers. And yes, from the 4th century and up, the Christian Church warred between doctrines and creeds. But beforehand, the books we use in our Bibles today were the same books that existed unedited before the canonization. Look for the time that the Sepugaint was translated into the Latin Vulgate. Thats where the subtractions and additions were given. We still have the Greek Church with the Greek translation to leave us with the earliest translations of the NT, much more reliable than the later Latin manuscripts. Would you agree?
I actually already have that book and have read from it. I've also studied A History of the Christian Church by Lars P. Qualben and found that, while Trinatianism and Montanism dualed out for several centuries, the books were held unedited in atleast several different occasions. The lost books of the Bible that we recovered from various places such as the Nag Hammadi Library and the Dead Sea Caves show us preservations of these books. It also shows in Christian history that Roman Catholicism was the only doctrine held. The Church in Ethiopia held the book Enoch I in their canon, which suggests that each Church held the books that supported their views, while tossing out the others as false. The books could NOT have been edited until ATLEAST the fifth century; years after the canonization of the Greek NT. If I'm not mistaken.

No, they couldn't have been edited until then, at least not consciously.
But surely you know of the 'telephone game'? Tell a story and pass it on and watch it change?
The first books that the early churches had worked that way. They were recorded versions of the gospels as a person remembered them, thus they were 'edited' by the scribe or the person dictating to the scribe's memory. The first gospels in the early church were oral. They were myths of Jesus. Thus, every village had a different gospel they used. And usually, even if they had a similar gospel to the next village over, it may have differed. There is no way to actually know that any of the Gospels that we have today have a single word in red that is accurate.
My point? Until the time evil men got to the Bible with their scalpels to carve it up, Christianity was a diverse religion, following many different paths to many different methods to salvation. We have no way of knowing, even if we study the ancient Greek or the Orthodox texts, what the message of Christ truly was or even if he was divine, or nothing more than an excessively wise Rabbi. To devote one's life to an organized creed that was solidified by man, after it had been recorded and misremembered by other men, and added to by one man bent on a personal political agenda seems like a waste of a life at best. I repeat, and in some versions of the Gospels even Jesus teaches a similar thing: Look inside yourself, all the answers you will ever need are in there.
mako
QUOTE
Actually, during the days of the kings of Israel; particularly David and Jedidiah (Solomon,) the term 'Son of God' referred to the king of Israel who was 'likened' to the concept of God's Son. So when Peter proclaimed that Jesus was the Son of God, he was declaring that Jesus was the rightful heir to the throne of Israel. Just a little more cultural history to consider.

What does that statement have to do with the inconsistency of the bible timeline and the historical timeline. Matthew and Luke can't agree on when Jesus was born, both their timelines miss the historic timelines..Matthew's time line would miss John the Baptist and probably Pontius Pilate too and Luke's timeline would miss King Herod, John the Baptist and Pontius Pilate! yes.gif
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 06:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
Hello Everyone! I'm sorry that its been so long since I've posted on here. But I have not forgotten all of you. This thread is aimed primarily at the non-Christians. To be more exact, athiests/agnostics.

Point #1-I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic, but I feel compelled to reply. My initial answer is, because most christians refuse to acknowledge any other religions other than their own. If I posted a thread on Judiasm, would I have said, "all non-jews, in other words, agnostics and atheists, please reply," wouldn't that sound a little weird? How prejudiced? How typical and thoughtlessly Christian!

QUOTE
I've been wanting to do a survey to see what turned people off to following Jesus Christ.

Point #2-It is offensive to refer to the man as "Jesus Christ". His name was Yeshu, and was probably called Yeshu ben Josef, assuming he was a real person and a real Jew.
QUOTE
I will most likely take notes and use them in my studies. Your most biased opinion is welcome. I would ask that we not spend too much time arguing certain opinions, but that those opinions be pointed out.

Point #3-Christians blindly follow what they were taught and act like little parrots; an entire branch of humanity without the ability to form their own opinion.
QUOTE
I'm sure we can argue each opinion in its seperate thread and that will keep the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum busy for a long while. w00t.gif

So, the first question:

What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?

God bless

IMHO, Christians don't know God. Which one do you want to bless who?
Leonardo
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
Hello Everyone! I'm sorry that its been so long since I've posted on here. But I have not forgotten all of you. This thread is aimed primarily at the non-Christians. To be more exact, athiests/agnostics.

I've been wanting to do a survey to see what turned people off to following Jesus Christ. I will most likely take notes and use them in my studies. Your most biased opinion is welcome. I would ask that we not spend too much time arguing certain opinions, but that those opinions be pointed out. I'm sure we can argue each opinion in its seperate thread and that will keep the Spirituality vs. Skepticism forum busy for a long while. w00t.gif

So, the first question:

What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?

God bless!


Primarily, because the 'Word of God' (the bible) evokes such a multitude of interpretations as to be virtually incomprehensible. If God really was...well...God, the bible would be clear and manifest to all and brook no mistranslation or misinterpretation. Any 'inspiration' God sent to those who wrote His bible would be clear and couched in meaning and sense we would understand innately. This leads me to the conclusion that the bible was conceived and written by men, not inspired of God. If the bible is not of God then how can it be trusted to explain what God wants? As Christianity is based on biblical cannon then the religion itself cannot be trusted to be what God wants?


edited! because of my bad, punctuation:
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?


Well, nothing in the bible makes the slightest bit of sense to me. We have a god who, despite being all powerful and all knowing, has to interrupt his creation every now and then and poke his nose in to steer man in the right direction... if he didn't do that would his plan not come to fruition? If so then he didn't do a very good job of drawing up his plan in the first place did he.

The Christian god is a brute... we've got him hardening hearts, sending plagues, killing first borns... there's little to recommend him really.

He creates a flawed being and sets the standard so high that this flawed being cannot help but sin, and then he punishes man for his flaws (the ones he created) and his sins (which he made unavoidable)... little sense there. He needs man to ask for forgiveness for the flaws which he created in the first place, and then, finding that he cannot forgive just like that (for some reason the Christian god isn't capable of simply forgiving), demands sacrifices - blood - to forgive. Then the regular blood letting isn't quite doing it for him, so he sends down his son - who is also a part of him - to be crucified, so he can die in order that he may forgive man. So he created mankind flawed, then couldn't forgive these flaws, so he died in order that man could be forgiven by him... because he can't forgive otherwise (someone is holding a gun to his head and forcing him not to forgive man obviously). rolleyes.gif

Then we've got his method of communication. He doesn't appear to mankind as a whole - so as to avoid misunderstanding, seeing as he is so obviously intent on getting his message out there... all the "I am the one true god" stuff. No, he picks little chaps here and there and tells them to go tell everyone else, because that's such a reliable method of communication. He could just pop the info into the head of everyone who needs it, but that would be too simple and efficient. And he doesn't want us to go to him by any route other than faith. He popped these little things called "brains" into our heads and then commanded us to use anything other than this organ to find him.

The Christian god is manufactured. He is a big powerful man god sitting up on high, operating an ill thought out reward scheme for the faithful. The bible is man made, and as such we're being asked to put our faith in the men who wrote it, not a god, and my faith in mankind isn't so great that I will alter my entire life and worship some fictional character in a book on man's say so.

QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
God bless!


Which god are you asking to bless me?
mako
QUOTE

Surely he means the Deist Creator....you know, the one true god...LOL yes.gif
The Puzzler
One bit of the Bible I do like is that if it wasn't for woman, man would have no knowledge of anything....... tongue.gif
mako
QUOTE
if it wasn't for woman, man would have no knowledge of anything.......

A wise man knows not to touch that statement with a 10 foot pole....a wiser man knows how true it really is! innocent.gif yes.gif
The Puzzler
QUOTE(mako @ May 15 2007, 12:59 AM) [snapback]1674453[/snapback]
A wise man knows not to touch that statement with a 10 foot pole....a wiser man knows how true it really is! innocent.gif yes.gif

haha good one Mako grin2.gif
cloud0729
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 05:29 AM) [snapback]1674063[/snapback]
What makes Christianity unbelievable to you?


The fact that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of being the Messiah. People are told to look at some of the Old Testament scriptures that show that Jesus was foretold, such as Psalms 22, Isaiah 53, Isaiah 9, and many other verses that Christians take out of context to make their point. Also, the English versions of the Old Testament (Torah) are translated poorly in some spots to support the Church's views. Also the stories of Jesus have a lot of pagan customs mixed into it to:

Born on December 25

Born of a Virgin

Divinely inspired and became a deity and later worshipped

Had visions and revelations and taught ethics

Went to school as a child and his teachers were surprised at his knowledge

Performed great miracles and restored life to a dead person

Birth announced by a star and a Trinity concept and died a violent death

Descended into Hades and rose from the Dead

Was expected to return in the “later days”

Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 12:38 PM) [snapback]1674143[/snapback]
Would it change your outlook if you understood more about the Creator instead of what a simple mind could offer? Its apparent that worship and obedience doesn't make sense to you. Perhaps all you need is to learn more about what has been revealed about the character and intentions of the Almighty God.
Perhaps I could shed some light on this subject;
And as for the first part, would it be possible that the Almighty that created us in His image is also as affectionate and relationship-desiring as we are? Is it then no wonder why He maniftest Himself directly to men in history and cares about our day to day occurences. Without mankind, in my opinion, the natural order of all creation would eventually be restored. What I believe is that the Father wants to walk with us, dwell among us, and experience the things we go through with us. Would you agree?



You are not trying to see if he will change is mind are you?? And telling him all he needs to learn is not your way of trying to get him to go your way?? is it?? <--just a question


But its only fair that people get to make up their own minds after all SaRuMan has said so in the guidelines..This board is about letting people decide for themselves what to believe and it is inapropriate for anyone to be trying to influence members in that regard.
Inner Space
QUOTE
if it wasn't for woman, man would have no knowledge of anything.......


QUOTE(mako @ May 14 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]1674453[/snapback]
A wise man knows not to touch that statement with a 10 foot pole....


w00t.gif Hilarious...this one got the 'ole endorphins a flow'n. laugh.gif
SilverCougar
Well.. given that ALL gods, even the abrahamic one, were created by human imagination... I'm going to worship the ones I feel more kindred to. The ones that call to me.

I left the church when I started to realize that I didn't like the ideals, the holier then thou additude, and he "we are the right faith" way. That, and I'm not a sheep. I eat sheep. *chuckles*

Bluefinger
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ May 14 2007, 08:45 AM) [snapback]1674355[/snapback]
Point #1-I am neither an atheist nor an agnostic, but I feel compelled to reply. My initial answer is, because most christians refuse to acknowledge any other religions other than their own. If I posted a thread on Judiasm, would I have said, "all non-jews, in other words, agnostics and atheists, please reply," wouldn't that sound a little weird? How prejudiced? How typical and thoughtlessly Christian!
Point #2-It is offensive to refer to the man as "Jesus Christ". His name was Yeshu, and was probably called Yeshu ben Josef, assuming he was a real person and a real Jew.

Point #3-Christians blindly follow what they were taught and act like little parrots; an entire branch of humanity without the ability to form their own opinion.
IMHO, Christians don't know God. Which one do you want to bless who?


Well Gideon, again you have proven how intolerable some religious and non-religious people can be.

To your first point: Who said I was intolerable of other religions? That would be passing judgement on me based on you popular opinion. I indicated that I was a Christian and was looking for answer as to why people didn't prefer Christianity. If you don't feel like you really need to answer the question, then you'd only be displaying yourself unwisely by doing so.

To your second point: It may be offensive to you to call the 'man' Jesus Christ instead of Yeshu or Yeshua ben Yosef, or even the Messiah for the sake of Jewish culture, but we live in America with the knowledge of calling Yeshu Jesus. If you can't tolerate that, why not move to a place where people do everything just the way you like? Thats the only way that will change. I think you are wise enough to know EXACTLY who I'm talking about regardless of cultural reference. ....another sign of intolerance

To your third point: Do ALL Christians blindly follow what they were taught? Do you know any Christians that actually question their teachings? Even the Bible indicates that the early day Christians questioned certain teachings that were brought before them. These Christians were FAR different than the stereotypical Christian that you keep insulting. I have questioned teachings, sought answers, prayed, searched more, and found them. Its apparent that your intoleration toward Christians is from personal experience. Is there any particular experience that you would like to share? I know my God. I see Him no different than the God that the Jews believe in. Muslims seem to witness of this God too. There must be something about this God, eh?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(SilverCougar @ May 14 2007, 12:01 PM) [snapback]1674656[/snapback]
Well.. given that ALL gods, even the abrahamic one, were created by human imagination... I'm going to worship the ones I feel more kindred to. The ones that call to me.

I left the church when I started to realize that I didn't like the ideals, the holier then thou additude, and he "we are the right faith" way. That, and I'm not a sheep. I eat sheep. *chuckles*



Okay. If the Church had loving ideals and a very humble attitude; not pushing others away because of their lives but showing support like a family, would you have doubted that it was the right faith? Would you agree that it would be more believable of the Christian faith if Christians actually followed their teachings properly?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 14 2007, 11:03 AM) [snapback]1674573[/snapback]
You are not trying to see if he will change is mind are you?? And telling him all he needs to learn is not your way of trying to get him to go your way?? is it?? <--just a question
But its only fair that people get to make up their own minds after all SaRuMan has said so in the guidelines..This board is about letting people decide for themselves what to believe and it is inapropriate for anyone to be trying to influence members in that regard.



I'm not trying to convert anyone. What I'm trying to do is survey opinions about Christianity and see, if those problems were fixed, would it change their views on Christianity. I'm not trying to persuade them, I'm trying to see if they could view Christianity as 'more' believable than they do now. What I will do with the results of the survey is write a thesis on Christianity in the world of non-Christians. Its not for college or anything. I'm aiming at talking it over with fellow Christians.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:00 PM) [snapback]1674946[/snapback]
I'm not trying to convert anyone. What I'm trying to do is survey opinions about Christianity and see, if those problems were fixed, would it change their views on Christianity. I'm not trying to persuade them, I'm trying to see if they could view Christianity as 'more' believable than they do now. What I will do with the results of the survey is write a thesis on Christianity in the world of non-Christians. Its not for college or anything. I'm aiming at talking it over with fellow Christians.

No problemo...like I said, I was just asking lol...I didnt go all out to accuse you
Shadow_Hill
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 08:54 PM) [snapback]1674936[/snapback]
Would you agree that it would be more believable of the Christian faith if Christians actually followed their teachings properly?


It wouldn't matter if every Christian alive was a carbon copy of this Jesus of the bible. The bible god does not make sense... he is a human in god clothing.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Never_Hit_Nirvana @ May 14 2007, 07:18 AM) [snapback]1674232[/snapback]
No, they couldn't have been edited until then, at least not consciously.
But surely you know of the 'telephone game'? Tell a story and pass it on and watch it change?
The first books that the early churches had worked that way. They were recorded versions of the gospels as a person remembered them, thus they were 'edited' by the scribe or the person dictating to the scribe's memory. The first gospels in the early church were oral. They were myths of Jesus. Thus, every village had a different gospel they used. And usually, even if they had a similar gospel to the next village over, it may have differed. There is no way to actually know that any of the Gospels that we have today have a single word in red that is accurate.
My point? Until the time evil men got to the Bible with their scalpels to carve it up, Christianity was a diverse religion, following many different paths to many different methods to salvation. We have no way of knowing, even if we study the ancient Greek or the Orthodox texts, what the message of Christ truly was or even if he was divine, or nothing more than an excessively wise Rabbi. To devote one's life to an organized creed that was solidified by man, after it had been recorded and misremembered by other men, and added to by one man bent on a personal political agenda seems like a waste of a life at best. I repeat, and in some versions of the Gospels even Jesus teaches a similar thing: Look inside yourself, all the answers you will ever need are in there.



I see what you are saying. Keep in mind though, that the Christian Gospel was oral tradition until the Christians started getting persecuted by fellow Jews and 'Gentiles.' If you notice the way the book of Matthew is written, its aimed at the Jewish Christians with the intent to persuade them not to apostasize because of oppression from fellow Jewish brothers. Mark, as we know, is the oldest Gospel we have; and the authors of Matthew and Luke probably used the book of Mark as a guideline. The Epistles are actually older than all the Gospels, indicating that the Christian teachings of Paul are more reliable historically than those of the Gospels.
If each person looked only inside themselves to find all the answers of Jesus, then I think people would cause Jesus to serve their purposes. This would make Christ the LEAST appealing to the world than any other God. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 14 2007, 03:02 PM) [snapback]1674954[/snapback]
No problemo...like I said, I was just asking lol...I didnt go all out to accuse you

I understand. If I thought you were trying to accuse me, I would probably answer to you privately. My defense was so that others didn't get that opinion of me simply by reading your response.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]1674963[/snapback]
I see what you are saying. Keep in mind though, that the Christian Gospel was oral tradition until the Christians started getting persecuted by fellow Jews and 'Gentiles.' If you notice the way the book of Matthew is written, its aimed at the Jewish Christians with the intent to persuade them not to apostasize because of oppression from fellow Jewish brothers. Mark, as we know, is the oldest Gospel we have; and the authors of Matthew and Luke probably used the book of Mark as a guideline. The Epistles are actually older than all the Gospels, indicating that the Christian teachings of Paul are more reliable historically than those of the Gospels.
If each person looked only inside themselves to find all the answers of Jesus, then I think people would cause Jesus to serve their purposes. This would make Christ the LEAST appealing to the world than any other God. There has to be a line drawn somewhere.

I don't need to look for Jesus, as far as I am concerned, God is all I need to answer to, not Jesus. I don't believe they are the same either, meaning as the one God.

God was always around, long before Jesus Supposedly came to earth.

I remember just the other day, someone posted a gospel from st thomas, that read, you do not need to go through Jesus, in order to get into heaven. This very same gosple was removed from the bible, for one reason IMO and that was to make you think, the only way to heaven is through Jesus, so therefore someone had took it apon themselves to remove that gospel

When Gosples get removed, then it sounds too currupted for my liking, no offence to you or anyone else
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:11 PM) [snapback]1674969[/snapback]
I understand. If I thought you were trying to accuse me, I would probably answer to you privately. My defense was so that others didn't get that opinion of me simply by reading your response.

NO lol that's why i wrote this at the end of my previous quote ---> just asking questions

to let you know thats all i was doing
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Leonardo @ May 14 2007, 09:29 AM) [snapback]1674413[/snapback]
Primarily, because the 'Word of God' (the bible) evokes such a multitude of interpretations as to be virtually incomprehensible. If God really was...well...God, the bible would be clear and manifest to all and brook no mistranslation or misinterpretation. Any 'inspiration' God sent to those who wrote His bible would be clear and couched in meaning and sense we would understand innately. This leads me to the conclusion that the bible was conceived and written by men, not inspired of God. If the bible is not of God then how can it be trusted to explain what God wants? As Christianity is based on biblical cannon then the religion itself cannot be trusted to be what God wants?
edited! because of my bad, punctuation:


The Bible seems unreliable because of the political way it was used. I agree. However, the words and teachings of Jesus is what kept people at peace amidst the flames of persecution and murder. Before Christianity was taken and corrupted by political imperials, the teachings and books were teachings of love and the books were books of inspiration. However, it presented to much confusion to have those other books in with the 'canon' of certain churches and were thus omitted. If Christianity came out today, people would still take the teachings of Christ and write their own view point on it. Orthadoxy thus, is the only reliable source to the truest oral teachings that we have. And as offensive that orthadoxy may be to some, we all follow some orthadox teaching somehow. For dieters, if you follow the orthadox teaching of dieting, you'll probably lose weight. If you follow just anyone's advice, you might not lose weight. You might even end up getting hurt. You'd most likely need to visit a certified dietician to find out what diet works best for you. If one considered Christianity in that light, would Christianity appear more sensible?

And you are write, men wrote down the Bible. They wrote down words that were passed on down through history. However, the question is not whether or not the teachings are reliable today, but were they reliable in history. If you observe the history of the Christian Church, the early day Christians demonstrated love, peace, and purity. If you didn't see a different version of Christianity today, would the New Testament be more believable?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 14 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]1674976[/snapback]
I don't need to look for Jesus, as far as I am concerned, God is all I need to answer to, not Jesus. I don't believe they are the same either, meaning as the one God.

God was always around, long before Jesus Supposedly came to earth.

I remember just the other day, someone posted a gospel from st thomas, that read, you do not need to go through Jesus, in order to get into heaven. This very same gosple was removed from the bible, for one reason IMO and that was to make you think, the only way to heaven is through Jesus, so therefore someone had took it apon themselves to remove that gospel

When Gosples get removed, then it sounds too currupted for my liking, no offence to you or anyone else



It is clear though, that the author of the Gospel of St. Thomas believed in something COMPLETELY different than what the other Christian authors believed. I say that because of the reference of HEAVEN. Because of that gnostic view point of heaven, people today perceive heaven as a place you go after you die and leave your body. However, the older Jewish writers of the Old Testament view heaven as God's presence being manifest and dwelling with men. The Garden of Eden is a description of heaven; when God walked in the cool of the morning with Adam. If you observe the prophets portrayal of heaven, its a place on earth.
What heaven represents to us now, is our seperation from God, the border between us and Him. God is in heaven and we are here on earth. Its the likely result of pushing God away. The Jewish people also didn't believe in a soul within the body. The body was the soul with the breath of life within it. The concept of a soul within a man became prominent during the Hellenisitc times in Palestine.

So to believe Thomas's words would also mean to believe the teachings that the author of Thomas believed in, which evidently wasn't Jewish, but gnostic. Meh, its a matter of preference I guess. If you don't have to believe in Jesus, you don't have to change your life and way of doing things to follow Him. It may be evident that the author of Thomas was trying to avoid changing his life to fit the teachings that other Christians were following. He most likely preferred to do things another way. The gnostic, you see, believed that a man was not saved by works of good or by the grace of God, but by a 'deeper and secret' knowledge of the Almighty. Its apparent that the author of Thomas was a gnostic.
Leonardo
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:20 PM) [snapback]1674990[/snapback]
The Bible seems unreliable because of the political way it was used. I agree. However, the words and teachings of Jesus is what kept people at peace amidst the flames of persecution and murder. Before Christianity was taken and corrupted by political imperials, the teachings and books were teachings of love and the books were books of inspiration.


As the only copies of the bible we have are those 'corrupted by political imperials' how can you know the 'teachings and books were teachings of love and the books were books of inspiration' before... blink.gif

The rest of your response to my post hangs on this assumption.

I'm glad you agree the bible is an unreliable reference to be used as a religious text though... thumbsup.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:30 PM) [snapback]1675009[/snapback]
It is clear though, that the author of the Gospel of St. Thomas believed in something COMPLETELY different than what the other Christian authors believed.


LOL you went and googles that one lol...listen it stands to reason as to WHY christians removed it from the bible..because its one of the contradiction that stood out like a sore thumb, thats why!!!

As for believing in the gospel of st thomas...no sir..I dont believe in anything written in a bible of any kind



Bluefinger
QUOTE(Leonardo @ May 14 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]1675021[/snapback]
As the only copies of the bible we have are those 'corrupted by political imperials' how can you know the 'teachings and books were teachings of love and the books were books of inspiration' before... blink.gif

The rest of your response to my post hangs on this assumption.

I'm glad you agree the bible is an unreliable reference to be used as a religious text though... thumbsup.gif


The reason why I know that the teachings were of love and that the books were of inspiration because of both commentary by historical figures and because of history itself. The teachings still remain in the Bible as well. I've seen them and will point a few out to you:

1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. The next verse indicates to love not as Cain did, who murdered his brother because Cain was evil and his brother was righteous. This clearly condemns bloodshed for the sake of righteousness.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


1Cr 13:4-7
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


It becomes evident to me that the teachings of the Bible were not corrupted by political imperials or religious leaders, they were ignored. These men used their reputation to speak instead of the Bible. That was what the Waldenses, the Hussites, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, and other Protestants disagreed with about the Catholic Church. You see here, that the words of the Bible were simply ignored, passed over for political reasons. No where in the New Testament Canon does it speak of a place called pergatory, but yet the Church of Rome made a good bit of money to fund their wars off that teaching.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 14 2007, 03:52 PM) [snapback]1675033[/snapback]
LOL you went and googles that one lol...listen it stands to reason as to WHY christians removed it from the bible..because its one of the contradiction that stood out like a sore thumb, thats why!!!

As for believing in the gospel of st thomas...no sir..I dont believe in anything written in a bible of any kind



Haha, actually no I didn't. I've read it. I have three collections of books that never made it to the canonization of the Bible: The Dead Sea Scroll, The Lost Books of the Bible, and Lost Christianities. These share many of the same books, however. The book never made it to the Bible canonization. It wasn't ever removed. The Bible wasn't canonized until the 4th century. Before that, people just had a collection of books and teachings.
Leonardo
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 09:56 PM) [snapback]1675041[/snapback]
The reason why I know that the teachings were of love and that the books were of inspiration because of both commentary by historical figures and because of history itself. The teachings still remain in the Bible as well. I've seen them and will point a few out to you:

1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. The next verse indicates to love not as Cain did, who murdered his brother because Cain was evil and his brother was righteous. This clearly condemns bloodshed for the sake of righteousness.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.


1Cr 13:4-7
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


It becomes evident to me that the teachings of the Bible were not corrupted by political imperials or religious leaders, they were ignored. These men used their reputation to speak instead of the Bible. That was what the Waldenses, the Hussites, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, and other Protestants disagreed with about the Catholic Church. You see here, that the words of the Bible were simply ignored, passed over for political reasons. No where in the New Testament Canon does it speak of a place called pergatory, but yet the Church of Rome made a good bit of money to fund their wars off that teaching.


So you agreed the bible was unreliable, you agreed it was written by men (and by 'They wrote down words that were passed on down through history' in one of your previous posts I'm assuming you meant horribly unreliable oral history) yet you quote from this unreliable text on the pretense it is showing some truth?!?!

You asked me what bugged me about Christianity and I told you, now you have proved what I said true! You said the bible was 'corrupted by Imperialists' and now you say it is not, you said it was unreliable and yet you treat it as the word of God's law.

Thank you for confirming my faith in the hypocrisy of Christianity... thumbsup.gif
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Leonardo @ May 14 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]1675062[/snapback]
So you agreed the bible was unreliable, you agreed it was written by men (and by 'They wrote down words that were passed on down through history' in one of your previous posts I'm assuming you meant horribly unreliable oral history) yet you quote from this unreliable text on the pretense it is showing some truth?!?!

You asked me what bugged me about Christianity and I told you, now you have proved what I said true! You said the bible was 'corrupted by Imperialists' and now you say it is not, you said it was unreliable and yet you treat it as the word of God's law.

Thank you for confirming my faith in the hypocrisy of Christianity... thumbsup.gif



I did say that the Bible was unreliable, not to Christians, but to non-Christians. I as a Christian have found hope and inspiration in the words of the Bible. So I was not hypocritical there.
I didn't say that the Bible was corrupted by Imperialists, I said that Christianity was corrupted by imperials. Theres a big difference in what I said. What I was saying is that the Christian teachings were corrupted by imperials. If they ignored the canon, as history shows they did, then they did not corrupt the Bible. If you look at the canon we have now and look at the actions of those who proclaimed authority in Christian teaching, its apparent that many of them COMPLETELY ignored the words of the Bible, that skeptics today find is so unreliable. I hope this misunderstanding has been cleared up.
I said that the words were written down from oral tradition. Whether or not you believe the that the oral tradition is horribly unreliable, I find that the words written down fit the characteristics of the Christians that denied thier lives for the sake of their testimony and loved each other like family as history shows are reliable to me. Debate-wise, they are unreliable. From a Christian perspective, they are completely reliable because they speak well of the ways of love, peace, and uprightness.

Christianity is not hypocritical, however hypocritical some Christians can be. I hope to clear this issue up with my thesis.
SilverCougar
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 14 2007, 07:54 PM) [snapback]1674936[/snapback]
Okay. If the Church had loving ideals and a very humble attitude; not pushing others away because of their lives but showing support like a family, would you have doubted that it was the right faith? Would you agree that it would be more believable of the Christian faith if Christians actually followed their teachings properly?



Doesn't matter. I've seen churches that do hold those loving ideals, and I still don't feel any connection to it. I've more of a spiritual connection to being a shaman then to any abrahamic faith.

That and christianity has evolved so greatly that there's no way to tell what the "propper teachings" is anymore. To many people have different ideas and personal beliefs as to what it is, that whatever the heck the origonal reason for christianity is pretty well lost to many.

If it's what works for those who find solice in that faith, then hey.. great. However, why try and make it so that *everyone* should follow along when it doesn't fit everyone.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(SilverCougar @ May 14 2007, 04:25 PM) [snapback]1675086[/snapback]
Doesn't matter. I've seen churches that do hold those loving ideals, and I still don't feel any connection to it. I've more of a spiritual connection to being a shaman then to any abrahamic faith.

That and christianity has evolved so greatly that there's no way to tell what the "propper teachings" is anymore. To many people have different ideas and personal beliefs as to what it is, that whatever the heck the origonal reason for christianity is pretty well lost to many.

If it's what works for those who find solice in that faith, then hey.. great. However, why try and make it so that *everyone* should follow along when it doesn't fit everyone.



Okay, fair enough.

Christianity has evolved because it has had to adapt to the advancements of culture throughout history. It had no choice, either keep up or get swept up in the change. The sad thing is, that in history, western civilization entered a long period of ignorace; so much that when people started advancing, ignorance had already become a tradition. The proper teachings have been reserved in the canon, as unreliable as some would find it. It testifies against those in history that completely ignored the words of the Bible. History shows that some followed the Bible, and many didn't. As for the original reason for Christianity being lost to many, I agree. It took me 23 years to finally understand the reason for Christ, even though I had read the Bible over and over again. I heard the Gospel, but it didn't make sense. Then I recieved instruction that made sense of Christ. The proper teachings are out there, its just sad that they are minority teachings.
truethat
For me all of the debate regarding interpretation of the bible is wrapped up in the way the religion is practiced. I am not a stickler for the bible being authentic although it would help.

My reason for not believing in Christianity is that according to the books own statements God is an evil creature.

Many things in the bible condoned by God are immoral in my opinion. Immoral totally through, so you can't make the argument that back then things were different.

Murdering children for example is immoral. Owning slaves is immoral.

I know this. And you know what else? Every Christian out there knows this. There are no two ways about it.

You know it is wrong to murder a child. Its a tragedy. One of the hardest things that soldiers experienced in Vietnam was when the enemy would hand a child a live grenade and tell him to walk towards the American soldiers and so the American soldier would have to shoot the child to protect the troops.

It was considered horrific. So God doing stuff like this is just immoral. No matter what reasons. The situation is immoral regardless of Gods choices. That a God would allow this causes me to reject him. And the action of rejecting God is so ridiculous that it has made me realize that in all likelyhood there is no God to reject. We are shaking our fists at the sky and raging against nothing. For the moral depravity on this planet lies solely in the actions of people. It is by clinging to the salvation of God that we prevent ourselves from taking a cold hard look at reality and to see that the lack of morality in our "creator" makes itself know in the lack of morality in life.


Here is an excerpt from an article discussing Ivan Karamazov who is the complete mirror of my opinion of God and why I reject especially Christian views of God.


QUOTE
Despite his eager embrace of the world, therefore, Ivan wants to remain a solitary and transcendent judge over it, a godlike withholder no less than a gracious giver of praise. Others must satisfy his own criteria before he will embrace them. And because God does not satisfy the requirements of Ivan’s logic, he will not believe in God.

Yet Ivan’s logic is not sophomoric. He makes a strenuous case against God’s goodness. He refuses, for example, to cite the many natural calamities-typhoons and tornadoes, floods and droughts, fires and earthquakes and disease-that seem to disclose a ham-fisted Creator. Ivan knows that such cosmic evils might be attributed to a natural process that is divinely ordered. Like Job, he might discover that, while the natural order seems inimical to human happiness, its operations might have their own purposes, not revealing any divine hostility toward human well-being. But Ivan is not vexed chiefly with natural evils. He cares about moral evils, about the crimes that we human creatures commit. The standard explanation of such moral evils is that they are the unfortunate consequence of human freedom. God’s uncoerced creatures, so the argument runs, are capable of grossly misusing their liberty. If God were to prevent evil human actions, His world would no longer be free.

Ivan subjects the standard free-will defense of the divine goodness to devastating critique. At best, he says, the free perversion of human will explains only the suffering of adults, the grown-ups who are accountable for the evils that they both cause and suffer. They have eaten the apple of knowledge, says Ivan. Because they have followed the demonic temptation to become "as gods," they deserve their self-wrought misery. What this standard theodicy cannot account for, Ivan maintains, is the agony of children whose wills are still innocent. That their suffering results from human cruelty more than natural mishap makes it all the more horrible. As Ivan notices, animals rarely torment their prey. Only our human kind derives erotic pleasure from its savagery, becoming virtual voluptuaries of cruelty. In a passage that would have made even the Marquis de Sade tremble, Ivan declares the awful allurement of unprotected innocence. "It is precisely the defenselessness of these creatures that tempts the torturers, the angelic trustfulness of the child, who has nowhere to turn and no one to turn to-that is what enflames the vile blood of the torturer."

Ivan offers searing examples of such wanton and motiveless malignity. Indeed, he creates a virtual phantasmagoria of suffering from actual instances of human barbarity that he has read about in Russian newspapers: Turkish soldiers cutting babies from their mother’s wombs and throwing them in the air in order to impale them on their bayonets; enlightened parents stuffing their five-year-old daughter’s mouth with excrement and locking her in a freezing privy all night for having wet the bed, while they themselves sleep soundly; Genevan Christians teaching a naive peasant to bless the good God even as the poor dolt is beheaded for thefts and murders that his ostensibly Christian society caused him to commit; a Russian general, offended at an eight-year-old boy for accidentally hurting the paw of the officer’s dog, inciting his wolfhounds to tear the child to pieces; a lady and gentleman flogging their eight-year-old daughter with a birch-rod until she collapses while crying for mercy, "Papa, papa, dear papa."

Such evils cannot be justified, Ivan argues, either by religious arguments based on history’s beginning or by secular arguments that look to its end. The Edenic exercise of free will is not worth the tears of even one little girl shivering all night in a privy and crying out from her excrement-filled mouth to "dear, kind God" for protection. Yet neither will Ivan accept the Hegelian-Marxist thesis that the harmonious final outcome of history sublates its present evils. The notion that such savagery reveals the necessary consequences of human freedom or that it contributes to history’s ultimate result is, to Ivan, a moral and religious outrage. Neither is he any more satisfied with the conventional doctrine of hell, which holds that the monsters of torment will themselves be eternally tormented. Hellish punishment for heinous malefactors would not restore their victims, Ivan reminds us. The impaled babies would not be brought back to life nor would their mothers be consoled, the dismembered boy would not live out his years, the weeping girls would not be comforted. Ivan rejects all such theodicies because they belittle innocent suffering and thus commit unforgivable sacrilege against innocent sufferers. With a dramatic metaphor drawn again from Schiller, he refuses to offer his hosanna for such a world: he returns his ticket to such a life.



ETA source


And to note that even if it turned out that there really was a God I would be so offended at what he'd allowed to happen on his watch that like Ivan I would throw back his entrance ticket into heaven in his face and tell him to go eff himself.

At least I'd hope I'd have the strength to do so.


http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2110
Bluefinger
QUOTE(truethat @ May 14 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1675143[/snapback]
For me all of the debate regarding interpretation of the bible is wrapped up in the way the religion is practiced. I am not a stickler for the bible being authentic although it would help.

My reason for not believing in Christianity is that according to the books own statements God is an evil creature.

Many things in the bible condoned by God are immoral in my opinion. Immoral totally through, so you can't make the argument that back then things were different.

Murdering children for example is immoral. Owning slaves is immoral.

I know this. And you know what else? Every Christian out there knows this. There are no two ways about it.

You know it is wrong to murder a child. Its a tragedy. One of the hardest things that soldiers experienced in Vietnam was when the enemy would hand a child a live grenade and tell him to walk towards the American soldiers and so the American soldier would have to shoot the child to protect the troops.

It was considered horrific. So God doing stuff like this is just immoral. No matter what reasons. The situation is immoral regardless of Gods choices. That a God would allow this causes me to reject him. And the action of rejecting God is so ridiculous that it has made me realize that in all likelyhood there is no God to reject. We are shaking our fists at the sky and raging against nothing. For the moral depravity on this planet lies solely in the actions of people. It is by clinging to the salvation of God that we prevent ourselves from taking a cold hard look at reality and to see that the lack of morality in our "creator" makes itself know in the lack of morality in life.
Here is an excerpt from an article discussing Ivan Karamazov who is the complete mirror of my opinion of God and why I reject especially Christian views of God.


Thanks for the post. Could you show me biblical references to murdering children and support why things being different during those day still didn't matter? Keep in mind, morality was a concept introduced to the simple civilization of pagans by Christians. Before Christianity was accepted as a legal religion, many people tried their hardest to please the gods or God, so that many would recieve injury in effort for personal satisfaction. Christianity however sheds light that man can not earn God's attention, but that God sought out our attention. A concept that is very unorthadox to many other religions.

As far as what God has allowed to happen, perhaps it would be to fix the problems within the heart of mankind all the while teaching man to trust more in God than in mankind itself. Its been a written and spoken concept that with God is eternal life and peace. Its in the habitation of those that work against God that terrible things been allowed happen.

Consider the possibility that even though God created a perfect creation that demonstrated life, peace, prosperity, and love; the introduction of certain knowledges into mankind taught mankind how to destroy, create violence, murder, and die. They had knowledge, but not the wisdom on how to properly use it. Perhaps you should read the book of Enoch; Enoch 1 to better understand this possiblity. If God were to come and interefere today, wouldn't it unjustly interefere in the lives and destroy the lives of those ignorant to him.
truethat


Doesn't matter about the Pagans or whatnot. And as I said, doesn't matter if God really exists at all.

If this is the best he can do and wants my worship?? If his focus in the bible in on my salvation and not on "Hey we need to fix this place up, children are suffering!" But "Oh I toldya so!!!!"

He can KMA. I have no time for a being like this.


I don't think you understand Ivan's (and mine) perspective. The deal is off when its the extreme nature of Children suffering. God only makes sense when its dealing with adults.

Heck in the garden of Eden they were fully formed adults. I think Becky's Mom has pointed out several times that they were like children in what they had the capacity of understanding.

I've heard stories of soldiers gouging out the eyes of children with spoons for kicks. People are sick, and its too much for us to stop it all. If this is going on and you have the capacity to stop it and you don't? I don't have any respect for you.

Consider the picture by Kevin Carter and consider that God is watching MILLIONS of pictures like this be taken and doing nothing to stop it. He's a sick pig in my opinion if he does exist at all.



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