All too often the Christians on this forum bad-mouth the original Christians, the Catholics. Here is a little story I wrote and maybe this is the way it really is. Maybe y'all need to rethink everything! LOL

Satan was perturbed, his age old battle with Jehovah was slowly failing. True, he had many successes but then Jehovah pulled a fast one and came to earth in the guise of his Son, lived, preached and died. Died as a sacrifice that all men could reach salvation! It just wasn’t fair! There had to be something that could be done. Calling his hellish minions together, he initiated a “Madison Avenue” style brainstorming session. All kinds of ideas were put forward, examined and cast off. It was beginning to look like Jehovah had finally won. Suddenly one very minor Imp, the assistant to the assistant to the Assistant Manager of Eternal Torment hesitantly raised his paw. “Sire” he began, “there abides a “Damned” (the current term for a mortal that has been damned to Hell) in section 4B that was a great General and greater politician, a man by the name of Gaius Julius Caesar, the former Dictator of the Roman Republic. If anyone can come up with a devious plan, it would be this “Damned”, after the way he manipulated the Republic for his own advantage.
Satan was impressed enough by the temerity of this lower level Imp that he actually considered the idea rather than ripping the creatures guts out and making a hammock of them. “Hmmm” rumbled the Evil One, “We actually have nothing to lose by asking this “Damned” and maybe the Creation to gain, bring him to me!”
Within minutes a very disheveled and singed individual was standing before the Grand Council, defiantly glaring at them. Warming to the mortal who exuded an air of evil as strong as any of his Imps, Satan explained the problem before them and presented the reward of elevation from the rank of “Damned” to the exalted rank “Prince of Imps” should this mortal have an idea that would work.
Caesar pondered long and hard, finally shaking himself and turning to address Satan and the Council. “The Son said, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” And thus did he establish the Catholic Church, for Peter was the first Pope of it, and the Church is the Bride of Christ. Against this monolith, you cannot prevail. It is simply too strong for you. Yet Jehovah’s strength in the physical world is somewhat bound to the power of his Bride, his Church; therefore you must do as I did in Rome – DIVIDE AND CONQUER!
To this very day Gaius Julius Caesar is a Prince of Hell, just as he was a Prince of Rome and each time some small splinter falls from the Bride or falls from one of those splinters that had fallen from the Bride in the past, he and Satan laugh uproariously and pound each other on the back. Soon, even the Second Coming will not have enough power to over come the power of Hell!

I know, I see them do it ALL the time, some do it to be spiteful towards the faith itself...

They KNOW fine well catholics were in fact the 1st christians...then along came someone to protest against it.................hence the name PRO-TEST-ANT....and soon protestants grew...

So then what??? chant spiteful remarks at the Catholic church................take from it what they wanted and make claims the catholic church is bad...and wrong...in comes the Propaganda they follow FALSE IDOLS.....gimme a break.....they call jesus on the cross a false idol................they IGNORE the fact, that catholics pray in front of the cross, to be reminded that Jesus died for their sins............but some nasty son of a B**** descided to rant about it, showing hate..........soon anti catholics were born....they ranted about the statue of Mary.. how it was wrong to give thanks to her for giving birth to THEIR SAVIOUR....they call this wrong.................the list is silly....THEY KNOW IT IS SILLY!!!

Even though the catholic faith is the biggest domination of christianity..still to this very day..hey dont believe me?/ look it up.... ..........

Everyone KNOWS where protestants first came from....................but still show spite and will be ignorant to the fact that Catholics are in fact christians

Each time I hear someone say they arent or read it...I laugh at the ignorance of it all lol....they are making a fool out of themselves!!

my mother has done it too...she was once catholic...turen to born again...and now out of sheer spite, claims they arent christians....brainwashed to believe it....her own mother would turn in her grave if she heard her

Great post Mako...to sum it all up...the more splinters christianity has...the weaker it may become


Like a tv aerial............if you connest it up to more than one TV...you will wind up with a crappy picture lol

nice story

god is no match for Caesar

I don't understand the animosity between born again Christians and Catholics. And I definitely don't understand the claim that Catholics aren't Christians. Half of my family's Catholic and they'd fall off their perch if you implied they weren't Christians.


Great story Mako.

Nice story.

Although I wouldn't call Roman Catholics the first Christians. That honor would have to go to Jerusalem.

Interesting story, Mako!

I often wonder why some modern Christians denounce the same church that organized the holy doctrine these Christians rely on.
*shrugs*

It really begins when there was a lot of diferent ways of taking the message of Christ. Later, most of this ways reunificate into one, and the rest were "erased". Some time later, when this only way, the Catolisim grow fat and corrupt and already destroyed some new ways, a reformist in Germany "protest" the ways of the Roman Church. This "reformation" spread quickly, mostly in northen europe, where it was used by the powerfull to cut out the inmese power of the Roman Church. Later, by politics usually, this also began to splinter, like the anglican faith and others. Soo, you ended having religious splinters of religious splinters of some main religious body.

I like the story Mako, a very good moral backbone, although Julius Caesar was a bad example since he was the best thing that could have happened to Rome and hence our present day world.

I have always wondered why people insist though on calling the Catholic Church, the 1st church?

For some reason they are called "Roman Catholics" and when the "Roman church" was founded in the 2nd half of the 1st century, other centers of worship had already existed for a long time.

The Christian Church originated in Roman Judea in the first century AD. hence Jerusalem was the 1st churches center of influence, not Rome.

The Church gradually spread through the Roman Empire gaining its first major establishment in the city of Antioch. Christianity, for a time, became a widely persecuted religion, first hated by the Jewish authorities as a heresy to their faith, and then by the Roman authorities because, like Judaism, its monotheistic teachings were fundamentally foreign to the traditions of the ancient world, as well as a challenge to the imperial cult.

The Church of the Roman Empire was divided into dioceses with five holding particular prominence, one in the West (Rome), and the rest in the East (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria). The bishops of these five would become the Patriarchs of the Church. Even after the split of the Roman Empire the Church remained a relatively unified institution (excluding Oriental Orthodoxy and some other sects which split from the rest of the Church earlier). Other than a brief return to religious heterogeneity, the Church came to be a central and defining institution of the Empire, especially in the East. In particular, Constantinople would come to be seen as the center of the Christian world, owing in great part to its economic and political power.

Although there had long been frictions between the Patriarch of Rome, or Pope, and the other patriarchs, the ascension of Charlemagne and the creation of the Holy Roman Empire, which moved Rome out of the Eastern Roman political sphere, set the Church on a course toward separation. The political and theological divisions would grow until during the Great Schism in 1054 AD Rome and Constantinople excommunicated each other, ultimately leading to the division of the Church into the Western (Roman Catholic) and Eastern (Eastern Orthodox) Churches.

As a result of the redevelopment of Western Europe, and the gradual fall of the Eastern Roman Empire to the Muslim Arabs and Turks (indirectly helped by warfare between Western and Eastern Christians), the Roman Catholic Church gradually surpassed the Eastern Orthodox Church in size and power as most of the original Christian lands were converted to Islam. With the final Fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD the period of the Western Renaissance began in the West introducing new ideas into Western theology. Rome came to be seen as the Christianity's heartland, a perception that is arguably still held today. Some Eastern churches even broke with Eastern Orthodoxy and entered into communion with Rome. The changes brought on by the Renaissance eventually led to the Protestant Reformation during which many groups of churches split from the Roman Catholic Church. Then during the Age of Exploration and the Age of Imperialism, Western Europe spread the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches around the world, especially in the Americas. These developments in turn have led to Christianity's being the largest religion in the world today although the Christian Church lacks the unity it arguably once did.

The Christian Church

Great post, Mako.

As I understand it, the Orthodox church preceded the Roman Catholic. Mostly because it took a little time for Peter to get to Rome and get things going. Or is this, also, part of the legend?
--DJS

I agree with most of your story Mako, The organized church always it seems to fall prey to the desires of its enemy. Or at least into a “if you can’t beat them you might as well join them” mentality.
Perhaps a standard was set by the original followers of Jesus, One Judas in every dozen faithful.

The church was turned into a business with a political agenda instead of a fellowship of worshipers.
The Church is a spiritual body, not a man-made organization (1 Peter 2:5). No city or organization is the mandated place of worship (John 4:20-24).

Irish

*sarcasm off*

Thank you, Heart felt applause! Well said!

*sarcasm back on*

Luther and especially Calvin introduced the idea of predetermination. For them, humans don´t possess a free will, so they cannot choose between good and bad deeds, but they are puppets on a string within God´s plan only. So, for them, God has choosen some humans from the beginning to be salvated and the others for going to hell, no human can have influence on this. Those who never got the chance to recognize God´s words (like far off living indigenous tribes) are determined to go to hell too. By this, Prostestants (with exception for the fraction of the Arminians) have a very different concept of God than traditional Christians. The God of the traditional Christians ( catholic and orthodox) shows mercy and compassion, whilst the God of the Prostestant is a cold hearted and cruel God. Protestants worship an other God than the God worshipped by traditional Christians. Keeping this in mind, Protestants don´t deserve it to be called "Christians" nor can they be considered as a part of Christianity.

Unqualified nonsense.

Historically, only a fraction of protestant denominations accepted predestination in the form you wrote about. Christianity has a completely different view on this matter and that includes protestants

By the way, welcome to UM TheManWithoutQualities.

Please see the following link for the correct view on predestination as viewed by christianity.

See: Free will / Predestination

While the Roman Catholics might be the original Christians (or among the originals) - I think the reason for the Protestant split from the church made sense. Here's a quick cut and paste from http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/...ound/church.htm





While I wouldn't go as far as to say Catholics are un-Christian, I can definitely understand these complaints and why an average Christian at that time would choose to be a Protestant over Catholic.

Even now the perception I have of the Catholic church is that it's focused on the institution and the rituals too often. It doesn't help that whenever a religious official appears in the media as corrupt it seems to be a roman catholic official.

For me, I don't have any issue with the average Catholic, but I frequently disagree with the Catholic church and officials positions. I do agree with these :

Gonna play devils advocate here....where in the NT did Jesus add, "until some monk is discontent with the way the church (the Bride of Christ) is run and goes off and starts his own version of the church". He didn't, therefore if you are indeed not a member of the Church founded by Jesus through Peter, you are not a Christian! Well, at least according to the NT! Personally, I see the whole matter as mythology and no more valid than Romano-Greek paganism, but then that is just my considered opinion based on historical research.

The idea was not original to Calvin or Luther. St. Augustine was saying things like this over a thousand years earlier. The "free will" debate has been going on for about 1500 years - no end in sight.
--DJS

I'm ready to start the Reformation all over again if you guys are.

The bagpipe was saved from virtual extinction by: the Highland Catholics. I have memorized and can play several tunes from the Reformation, including "Ye Jacobites by Name" and "Bonnie Dundee" in case I meet any Roundheads. Now all I need is a regiment. --DJS

Well, ye dinna look at me mon...me piping days are long past. Oi cudna play th' scales if oi had ta and am nae longer kilted, laddie. LOL


** how did you like my bogus Highland accent...what do you expect, my ancestor came from the Isle of Mull, hardly Highland! LOL ***

Mako, you old reprobate . Once again you are correct. The church was never meant to be a united political front to control the populace. It was to be a fellowship whose main task was to go out into the world and spread the good news (Gospel of salvation). What was Caesars's (the governments) belonged to Caesar and what was God's belonged to God.

Jesus did not say anything about building massive temples and organizations run by elite priests and popes. Jesus did not advocate rebellion nor form a new religion in His name. He did say wherever two or more are gathered in My name, there shall I be. He said nothing about attaining wealth and power in fact he demonstrated the opposite, poverty and servitude to His fellow man. The wealthiest organization in the world "The Catholic Church" claims its wealth on the name of this man Jesus, living in pampered luxury, while it's supporters in third world countries are dieing of starvation and illness. I think the Jesus I know will have a special place reserved for their kind And no special pope mobile will protect them from that wrath.

Jesus Christ's disciples were asked to walk away from the comforts of family, stored food, shelter, wealth and to rely on faith, friendship and fellowship and God for those needs in their travels.
Much of the New Testament was about travel and letters to small groups of Christians throughout the known world. And those letters addressed individual group’s problems and concerns and no mention was made of joining together with an elite central leadership. There was to be one mediator between man and God, and that mediator was the Christ.

The true bride of Christ has existed from the beginning in spite of man and the enemy of man and Gods, attempts to force political control as well as stop the Good News from getting out.
The true bride of Christ is alive and well today and up until we are called home. You will find us not where you would expect us in the religious organization and politically elite governments of the world but we are the common folk anonymously, dispersed and protected, living our lives for the good we have been taught, for we are strongest when we appear at our weakest.
The wedding feast has been prepared the table is set and everyone who reads these words has a personal invitation to the finest banquet of all time.

Jesus defined religious people as those that visit the sick, widowed or orphans. So I guess sometimes I can be a religious person . I see religious people who go to church every Sunday and look down on those who don’t. Like the Pharisees that Jesus had to deal with all the time. The church is “Where two or more are gathered in my name” Jesus. That could be on a hill by a river or in someone’s back kitchen the church is not a building or a structure of any kind. I am simply a non-denominational Christian, who believes that Christ provided a way to be re-united with our Creator. He did not say find yourselves a pompous leader and give him a funny hat to wear and start collecting taxes to support his luxury lifestyle. In fact He said nothing about forming religious organizations; He fellowshipped, ate and worshiped with the very people the religious people looked down upon He just wanted us to enjoy fellowship among those of like mindedness.

And although not religiously I try to emulate the way He lived and taught and acted, not for any gain or rewards but simply because it was good and caring. He was a model human being while He walked the earth experiencing the same things we experience day to day, joy, pain, tears and friendships. A creator that is willing to walk in the shoes of His creation proves that He is a loving God in my opinion.

All the best
Irish

Here are two Catholics, which one do you think follows what Jesus taught?

Neither of the two. :wink:

I agree with Texasgirlheather.... and then some!

Thank you Texasgirlheathel and Mako, It’s man made religion that gives Christianity a bad name.
Mankind does not need a religion as an excuse for evil, it’s just convenient. Evil men will use every tool at their disposal to satisfy their lust for power and control. I make no excuses for evil men, both secular and religious. I personally believe they alone will answer for their evil acts.

The trinity of evil is Greed, Power and Lust and they can be achieved through politics, philosophy and religion.
Politics, philosophy and religion. are not evil by themselves but are the tools for the righteous of heart as well as the evil at heart.
No Christian here had any part in the crusades or inquisitions or even support such atrocities that happened in the past. There are evil minded people who hide behind the mask of righteousness whether that be Christian Muslim or Jew.
A reminder to all to not fall into the hate trap as hate is an emotion that is like a cancer to the soul.
Remember that we follow a path of a man that was a kind pacifist who had nothing but wisdom, love and peace to offer. He spoke against religious tyranny and violence and most of all against hatred itself.
Never lose sight of the human inside of us (the friend, son, daughter, mother or father) If you are not interested in saving your soul then at least work on keeping it a healthy part of who you are.

Irish

Nice to see you mock another faith Irish..sets a GREAT example....would hate to see it if we all put up pic's of leaders of the rest of the christian faiths and made a mockery...clever of you

Funny how a born again always knocks the catholics church to suit themselves....at the same time wont allow ANYONE to say crap about a born again faith..amazing


Funny also how you all put the church down...make up jokes about it..say it gives christianity a bad name LMAO....yet ignore the fact that still to this very day...the catholics dominate christianity by a long shot

and not to forget they where the 1st ever christians...without the catholic faith...y'all wouldnt be protestants...cuz thats were protestants came from

and I LOVE how you all dont give a monkies that catholics post on the board...here we have a Born again baised towards this faith MOD in on the act.....................EXCELLENT

Are you having a bad day, BM?

First of Geri I did not mock anyone or any faith I asked a simple question, perhaps as an ex catholic yourself you can answer, who is the better representative of Jesus the Pope who lives in affluence and luxury or Mother Theresa who surrendered the comforts of civilization to look after the poor and ill? Give me an honest answer with the reasons why. And please note that both parties are indeed of the catholic faith not one of those protestants you speak of.

And as well the Roman Catholic was not the first Christian faith in fact most Christians avoided Rome for fear of being tossed in with the lions. It did indeed become the first organized church to be corrupted by power hungry and evil men, that is why there were people protesting and leaving it.

As I have said before and noted here, there are some within the Catholic Church who are indeed Christians but many who just follow blindly out of family tradition. I know this because I came from there.

Tell us again why you walked away from a faith that you are claiming to defend?

And finally if you review my posts you would note that I make more jokes about Protestants beliefs than Catholic.
Oh! And the reason I cannot put up a picture of my church leader is the apostles forgot their cameras in the fishing boats .(Protestant Joke)

That being said get yourself a nice cuppa cha and relax a bit.

Irish

no why?

If I dont believe in the bible, it would be silly to stay in a faith..you already know this

another thing irsh...I have never been behind the door when I say -- i STILL HOLD GREAT RESPECT FOR THE FAITH....On my kids life i still do.............I have family that are catholics...2 uncles who I adore are preists..............

What ever happened to respect Irish??

Its OK for you to ask every non christian to stop mocking other christian faiths...............but look its OKAY to knock the catholic chuch...cuz we all know that born agains hold a dislike for the chuch..they totally disagree with it..........................................so then what?? Well because they totally disagree with the church...they can say anything about it

You saying it gives christianity a bad name...lol thats rich, especially when not one of you can prove with faith is the true faith

If this forum wants to set an example to show respect for ALL religious faiths.............why must the catholic faith be any different



What if I were to copy your words and say.................the born agains a man made faith...gives christianity a bad name.<-------------not so nice is it Irish?? Yet it's no different from what you have just said

That's OK. We won't hold it against you. BTW: Mine didn't, either. My family were lowlanders who married into MacDuff, settling near Edinburgh. I I couldn't do a highland accent to save me skin. --DJS

Again you have not pointed out where I have mocked, I am apposed to most organized religions and have clearly stated why I am, that is not mocking that Geri is an opinion. Geri it is not good idea to ride into thread with your pants on fire without a valid point to be made. All moderators here have an opinion or we would never have posted here in the first place. I am aloud to be biased in my opinions and beliefs that do not reflect on fair moderation duties in any way.
If I have stated an untruth then defend it with the truth or at least give us a good argument. I never said Catholics give Christianity a bad name, go back and read it. I said that mans Religion gives Christianity a bad name that includes both Protestant and Catholic.

And when you settle down please answer my questions in my last post, if you wish to participate in the discussion.

Thank you; Irish

So is the catholic church at fault for the 3rd world suffering too??

And what do you mean by THEIR KIND?? who all those that follow them?? I find that strange...your family followed the church..are you going to say they too will have this special place reserved for them??? heck if thats the case billion will all go to hell...

Judgemental?? Awful nice how you can judge this chuch...when you have no idea who will go were when they pass on??

outrageous!!!!!!!!!!

If I were still catholic, id be too scundered to post here...wonder how many do read these kind of baised posts from born agains, and are too afraid to step up and defend themselves??

Hmm.. if we ever did something like that on UM.. it might resemble this:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=95359#

Or this:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=94595#

BM, I love you and I am not arguing with you for the sake of arguing, I am pointing out that we all here are entitled to our opinions, and just because our opinions are critical and questioning or doubting, does not mean we are wrong for it.

The above are extreme examples of other faiths being mocked right here on UM, Jerry Falwell btw I do not consider a spiritual leader of my faith, but SOME PEOPLE DID. Everyone here is going to express disapproval of things that they do not agree with, maybe not all the time but in the course of arguing for or against something it is neccessary to trot out the reasons that we are for or against it, and in the case of being against it the opinion expressed is not going to be approving.

It is the nature of debate.

I'm glad you aren't having a bad day, because if you were I can well imagine the posts you would have put out if these last few are anything to go by.

I don't see anyone mocking anybody else. I see each person giving an opinion, some of which put the catholic church in a bad light. I myself in my post mentioned the catholic church as an apostate church, although I must admit that after Vatican II they have slowly been returning to a more evangelical basis.

You've said worse in the past about some born again churches

If they followed the man they claim do, they could end the poverty and suffering bye selling all their precious art, gold and property, because thats what Jesus would do.


Their kind that use goodness as a mask for their evil hearts, both protestant and catholic, and Jews and Moslem's for that matter.


I know for sure were I am going but I will not be the Judge

If you were still a catholic then perhaps you would have a counter argument with evidence rather than being scundered, whatever that means.

Irish

All you asked me was..why did i walk away from the faith that i defend?

I told you....and I'll tell you again...it would be silly to follow ANY faith in christianity, if i ONT believe in a bible.....make sense??


I have a right to defend the faith..just like anyone else....someone has to

I NEVER said you dont have a right to share an opinion................remember Irish...this is the 1st time I have called you out, I set aside the fact you are mod..I am talking to you as a human being

Point out were you mocked..the pics for a start were enough..then I read on...you say its a man made faith that gives christianity a BAD NAME...then you pounce on about how the catholic church will have a special place reserved for them....feel the wrath thats knocking the church..and for SOME mad reason you bring in the 3rd world countries...for what??


Let me tell you something Irish, just because you made a choice in your life to turn your back on the catholic faith, and later had your mind transformed into believing that all of a sudden the catholic church is wrong..so so wrong, just like my mother I believe she is brainwashed, cuz once a devote catholic, all of a sudden tells her family they are going to hell!!!! she too was told this.......so you made a new choice in life,...........didnt you know that no matter what choice you make, its still a choice in the end??


There is not one person here can state they know for a fact what is the one and only true faith

Take your bible...ANYONE can take it, mess with it, then pass it off saying the born agains have it ALL WRONG..and later have followers believe in this...............Sound weird?? ....NOPE...cuz its what MAN has been doing from religion was 1st invented

While I don't want to put words in Irish's mouth - I read what he said to mean those in the church claiming wealth in the name of Jesus, and living in luxury. Not general catholic (or other christian) followers.

Incidentally, since it's come up - what do you mean by 'Born Agains'. The area's I've lived have all been rather secular and/or private. I thought I knew what a born again Christian referred to.. based on the way it's being used I'm wondering if I'm wrong.

Both catholics & Prods..and wow jews and muslims too................thats weird cuz see, you didnt mention either of those other faith before hand


And now all of a sudden the goal posts MOVE...If I were still catholic..I would have a counter arguement eh?? lol...really Irish?? ..gee so its ok for me to back up other christians...nothing wrong..its OK...even though I aint one of them??

BUT WAIT...I am not longer catholic..still respect the faith...but that dont count see...gimme a break Irish....ANYONE can defend a religious faith..and hold down a good debate

When we are talking about RESPECT..its anyones game!!!!!!!!! And its not nice to sit there claiming all those that follow the catholic church have a place reserved for them..feel the wrath...................not a very nice thing to say

You two! Time out!
*Sends Becky's Mom and Irish to their rooms*
You can come out when you can make nice.
--DJS

A little PM time will do wonders for their complexion.

I suggest you re-read it...let me help you out



Clearly talking about the catholic church

Ok that answers that one




I said no such thing as underlined above. You are making an assumption that I meant Catholics and we all know what assuming does
The pictures dose not mock anyone or any faith, they are just two pictures of two catholics along with the question you still have not answered!

Irish

Ok lets take out the word mocking and replace it with knocking the church?? ok??



I am stunned how many wont say BOO to me when I back up other christians...I have become more respectful and appreciate my christian friends on here...a few of you KNOW this

But the sec I defend a church from were I once came..and my family still do..including my 2 uncles who I adore are preists...I defend them.............and what happens??

I'll tell you what happens............those that dislike and disagree with the church..especially those that say all those that follow the church, will go to hell so to speak....will jump one by one at BM for defending something they SO DISAGREE WITH

Biased is something i am so glad and can hold my head up high and say..I AINT BAISED
I can look at all angles..athiests...diest..born again christians...catholics...Jewsish...ect ect........I dont get baised...I try so hard not to

Whats wrong with that??? well to those that dislike a faith...EVERYTHING

True, but to me when you refer to 'The Catholic Church' you refer to the institution (ie. the leadership, clergy, etc..) and not the followers of the Catholic faith. I suppose though that's a matter of semantics, and I can see why you would read it the way you did.

Could you repeate it?? I mean the other question...

It seems pretty clear to me. Irish was explaining that Jesus' teachings advocated little emphasis on material things and was all about helping others, instead of what Churches based on Jesus have become. The Catholic Church, in general, is an excellent example, because it is the wealthiest organization in the world, but does not use that wealth to ease suffering (at least, not as much as it could). I didn't see it as bashing the Catholic Church specifically, but it was a perfect example of the point being made. He was actually bashing any religion based on the teachings of Jesus that doesn't live up to Jesus' example.

As far as the special place reserved for their kind, he was referring to the people who use Jesus' name to get wealthy, but do nothing to help others. I did not take this to mean all Catholics.

I'm also not trying to put words in Irish's mouth, but that's how I interpreted what was said.

Here you are then!