Can limitations and teachings such as one who is sinful by nature and in need of forgiveness.... as set down by religion encourage shame???
some circles feel this is a global issue this idea that one is so unworthy they aren't fit to question the creator ......
ideas or systems that respond with coldness, indifference, punishment are really just teaching shame.....
is this a valid inquiry , how does one benefit from feeling sinful and unworthy?? what are the positives...
Full Version: Religion and shame
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In the Abrahamic faiths, I think shame has everything to do with state of mind.
Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"
Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.
2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.
3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).
4. not of adequate merit or character.
5. not commendable or creditable.
6. not deserving.
Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.
I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.
There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....
It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.
(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.
Signed, Mom)
Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"
Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.
2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.
3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).
4. not of adequate merit or character.
5. not commendable or creditable.
6. not deserving.
Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.
I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.
There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....
It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.
QUOTE
Thomas Aquinas: “A woman is a man gone wrong.”
(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.
Signed, Mom)
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 18 2007, 03:25 PM) [snapback]1682066[/snapback]
In the Abrahamic faiths, I think shame has everything to do with state of mind.
Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"
Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.
2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.
3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).
4. not of adequate merit or character.
5. not commendable or creditable.
6. not deserving.
Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.
I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.
There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....
It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.
(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.
Signed, Mom)
Luke 17:7-10 "Will any one of you who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and recline at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and dress properly, and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you will eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'"
Unworthy - 1. not worthy; lacking worth or excellence.
2. beneath the dignity (usually fol. by of): behavior unworthy of a king.
3. of a kind not worthy (often fol. by of).
4. not of adequate merit or character.
5. not commendable or creditable.
6. not deserving.
Bond Servant - (noun) 1. a person who serves in bondage; slave. 2. a person bound to service without wages.
I'd say shame is a large part of any faith that asks the faithful to accept they are always in deficit, working their way out of the condition their god made for them, so that they hopefully are included in the grace that frees them, after life. Even the above passage means nothing in those good works, because the bible says that's not what gets one into heaven. So being an unworthy servant all one's life, doing the masters bidding, gains one nothing after.
There's an orthodox Jewish prayer that begins. Dear god thank you for not making me a woman.....
It's a shameful god, one that creates shameful things that are yet found worthy to serve the god that made them in that condition.
(Dear Tommy, had it not been for a woman you wouldn't exist as a man.
Signed, Mom)
HMM Gw you got me thinking....
what I'm wondering is how this translates out in behaviors ??? How can this inspire one ??? thanks for so much thought in n your post GW...((HUGS)))
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]1682023[/snapback]
Can limitations and teachings such as one who is sinful by nature and in need of forgiveness.... as set down by religion encourage shame???
some circles feel this is a global issue this idea that one is so unworthy they aren't fit to question the creator ......
ideas or systems that respond with coldness, indifference, punishment are really just teaching shame.....
is this a valid inquiry , how does one benefit from feeling sinful and unworthy?? what are the positives...
some circles feel this is a global issue this idea that one is so unworthy they aren't fit to question the creator ......
ideas or systems that respond with coldness, indifference, punishment are really just teaching shame.....
is this a valid inquiry , how does one benefit from feeling sinful and unworthy?? what are the positives...
Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.
QUOTE(Child-Of-Israel @ May 18 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]1682078[/snapback]
Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.
Little babies and children do not sin
QUOTE(Child-Of-Israel @ May 18 2007, 03:36 PM) [snapback]1682078[/snapback]
Any sort of teaching that would tell people that they are not able to question things, is wrong. However, looking at the world, and at it's people, you will see that every living breathing person need forgiveness for something. It is human nature to lie, in order to avoid being "caught", it is human nature to envy something or someone that you don't have, it is human nature to be rude, it is human nature to be selfish. All are sinful, because all sin.
CI who has decided these things ??? I am forgiveness and all is forgiven......We create ways out of being punished would you agree , it seems few find it natural to encourage punishment ...
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 18 2007, 03:45 PM) [snapback]1682089[/snapback]
Little babies and children do not sin
well sis CI says on one hand its human nature all these things as in we are all of it the whole human experience yet on the other calls it sinful and in need of forgiveness....i wonder how this affects ones well being?
One very important indicators of a healthy functional being is how they deal with negative feelings..shame is often a response to emotion that is not being dealt with effectively.....
It is a given that religion preaches a construct of no to low self worth....
is humility, being humble, equal to shame? no
is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no
is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes
I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.
how is shame related to pride?
is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no
is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes
I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.
how is shame related to pride?
QUOTE(Celumnaz @ May 18 2007, 04:04 PM) [snapback]1682110[/snapback]
is humility, being humble, equal to shame? no
is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no
is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes
I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.
how is shame related to pride?
is religion necessary to be ashamed of something or someone? no
is it benificial to recognize your own limits? yes
I think that guy should have thanked his servants but oh well. Wasn't about him. More how to react to him. To me more a question do I want a 10 Degree Phd Brain Surgeon landing my plane, or a licenced pilot. Ok Dr. Please sit down.
how is shame related to pride?
it is well researched that secure beings have a strong feeling of self worth and competence and if pushed are able to aknowledge limitations....
It seems to me religion has little delight in celebrating the wonders or the up side of being human , its seems there is little focus on this yet the whole human experince is all inclusive.....meaning we are all of the good the bad the ups the downs....
How is shame to the point of inner torment good for one???
Goodness is its own virtue and doesn't require acknowledgment according to the canons, yet all that is neggative is hi lighted..i can't help but wonder is this good for a person????and how is it good for them to dwell on the negative????
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 10:32 AM) [snapback]1682071[/snapback]
HMM Gw you got me thinking....
what I'm wondering is how this translates out in behaviors ??? How can this inspire one ??? thanks for so much thought in n your post GW...((HUGS)))
what I'm wondering is how this translates out in behaviors ??? How can this inspire one ??? thanks for so much thought in n your post GW...((HUGS)))
I'd like to read Hypers take on this, as they have the psychological expertise, if I'm not mistaken.
How would one act if they accepted that personal status of unworthiness and inadequacy in the eyes of one's maker. I wouldn't dare hazard a guess diagnosing a behavior that would accompany such personal religious faith. I would actually wonder if there would be a psychological profile, if you will, of such persons. Considering first that one would have to first consider all sects beneath the religious umbrella and ascertain how many instill a sense of inadequacy, or unworthiness as human beings in the eyes of their creator.
I know the Abrahamic all do. What others would qualify, that we know of?! Because I think then, one would have to take that list and consider the cultural implications that may (or may not) fundamentally invest in that ideology. Taking it as more than just a compromise of one's personal esteem, to say even physical sacrifice. As in those that commit to self-flagellation. (figuratively or literally), or renounce their sensuality. (celibacy) (Saw a special on Nun's the other night. Imagine being a nun that commits self-flagellation! They interviewed an old sister that was the first nun in the order to actually make the knotted whips!
Imagine an analogy like that one: Nun's marry christ! (No honeymoon till they're dead. Hmmm the promise of sex in heaven. Where have I heard that before?!
) whipping themselves in service to their commitment to the church and god. "I'm married to jesus." WHIP! "I'm married to jesus" WHIP!In secular life, if that was a married woman beating herself every night because she was married, she'd be medicated or maybe hospitalized, as a danger to herself and others, one would think.
It's like, hey junior, where's your mom?
She's in the bedroom whipping herself because she's married to daddy.
Pain, suffering, death. Three things communicated by god as necessary to please it's will. A will that is already set, because it's part of the plan in the making by an omnipotent omniscient omnipresence. So perhaps it can be said, if god is all, then all human dysfunction and all human goodness, is gods doing. So when you ask what behaviors faiths that impart a sense of self-abnegation and unworthiness, would be responsible for, I'd say as many as are exampled by those that hold to the faith they're unworthy as human beings, to worship the power that made them so, as part of it's plan.
But can it be a bad thing!? If one is religious and believes as such?! Because if they worship an all knowing power, and believe everything is part of a plan, then no matter what happens within the realm of omniscient omnipresence, everything is as it should be, because it's all going according to plan.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:19 AM) [snapback]1682121[/snapback]
How is shame to the point of inner torment good for one???
It's not good for us humans... it's good for gods who require us to feel it in order to require salvation. What point would there be in worshipping gods who require such activity if there was no sin to be forgiven for? Why would any of us choose to follow the Abrahamic god, for example, considering his track record when it comes to cruelty to humans, if there was no necessity? It is the shame we are forced to feel and to confront which leads to fear of punishment, and that leads us to seek forgiveness from the god who made us feel shameful and fearful in the first place by labelling the most human and unharmful of acts a sin.
I question everything, including the existence of the Creator I believe in, and I do not consider myself sinful, so I do not live in shame. These two things have been enough to have people label me arrogant... for refusing to cow tow before a god who would have me feel unworthy my entire life simply for being a human being.
How does one grow when they consider themselves to be less than? It's not possible. Instead the person spends their whole life feeling that nothing they do is ever enough... it's like trying to run up the down escalator... your little legs keep on going and yet you never get anywhere near the top. There is no joy in such an existence.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 18 2007, 04:27 PM) [snapback]1682127[/snapback]
I'd like to read Hypers take on this, as they have the psychological expertise, if I'm not mistaken.
How would one act if they accepted that personal status of unworthiness and inadequacy in the eyes of one's maker. I wouldn't dare hazard a guess diagnosing a behavior that would accompany such personal religious faith. I would actually wonder if there would be a psychological profile, if you will, of such persons. Considering first that one would have to first consider all sects beneath the religious umbrella and ascertain how many instill a sense of inadequacy, or unworthiness as human beings in the eyes of their creator.
I know the Abrahamic all do. What others would qualify, that we know of?! Because I think then, one would have to take that list and consider the cultural implications that may (or may not) fundamentally invest in that ideology. Taking it as more than just a compromise of one's personal esteem, to say even physical sacrifice. As in those that commit to self-flagellation. (figuratively or literally), or renounce their sensuality. (celibacy) (Saw a special on Nun's the other night. Imagine being a nun that commits self-flagellation! They interviewed an old sister that was the first nun in the order to actually make the knotted whips!
Imagine an analogy like that one: Nun's marry christ! (No honeymoon till they're dead. Hmmm the promise of sex in heaven. Where have I heard that before?! ) whipping themselves in service to their commitment to the church and god. "I'm married to jesus." WHIP! "I'm married to jesus" WHIP!
In secular life, if that was a married woman beating herself every night because she was married, she'd be medicated or maybe hospitalized, as a danger to herself and others, one would think.
It's like, hey junior, where's your mom?
She's in the bedroom whipping herself because she's married to daddy.
Pain, suffering, death. Three things communicated by god as necessary to please it's will. A will that is already set, because it's part of the plan in the making by an omnipotent omniscient omnipresence. So perhaps it can be said, if god is all, then all human dysfunction and all human goodness, is gods doing. So when you ask what behaviors faiths that impart a sense of self-abnegation and unworthiness, would be responsible for, I'd say as many as are exampled by those that hold to the faith they're unworthy as human beings, to worship the power that made them so, as part of it's plan.
But can it be a bad thing!? If one is religious and believes as such?! Because if they worship an all knowing power, and believe everything is part of a plan, then no matter what happens within the realm of omniscient omnipresence, everything is as it should be, because it's all going according to plan.
How would one act if they accepted that personal status of unworthiness and inadequacy in the eyes of one's maker. I wouldn't dare hazard a guess diagnosing a behavior that would accompany such personal religious faith. I would actually wonder if there would be a psychological profile, if you will, of such persons. Considering first that one would have to first consider all sects beneath the religious umbrella and ascertain how many instill a sense of inadequacy, or unworthiness as human beings in the eyes of their creator.
I know the Abrahamic all do. What others would qualify, that we know of?! Because I think then, one would have to take that list and consider the cultural implications that may (or may not) fundamentally invest in that ideology. Taking it as more than just a compromise of one's personal esteem, to say even physical sacrifice. As in those that commit to self-flagellation. (figuratively or literally), or renounce their sensuality. (celibacy) (Saw a special on Nun's the other night. Imagine being a nun that commits self-flagellation! They interviewed an old sister that was the first nun in the order to actually make the knotted whips!
Imagine an analogy like that one: Nun's marry christ! (No honeymoon till they're dead. Hmmm the promise of sex in heaven. Where have I heard that before?!
) whipping themselves in service to their commitment to the church and god. "I'm married to jesus." WHIP! "I'm married to jesus" WHIP!In secular life, if that was a married woman beating herself every night because she was married, she'd be medicated or maybe hospitalized, as a danger to herself and others, one would think.
It's like, hey junior, where's your mom?
She's in the bedroom whipping herself because she's married to daddy.
Pain, suffering, death. Three things communicated by god as necessary to please it's will. A will that is already set, because it's part of the plan in the making by an omnipotent omniscient omnipresence. So perhaps it can be said, if god is all, then all human dysfunction and all human goodness, is gods doing. So when you ask what behaviors faiths that impart a sense of self-abnegation and unworthiness, would be responsible for, I'd say as many as are exampled by those that hold to the faith they're unworthy as human beings, to worship the power that made them so, as part of it's plan.
But can it be a bad thing!? If one is religious and believes as such?! Because if they worship an all knowing power, and believe everything is part of a plan, then no matter what happens within the realm of omniscient omnipresence, everything is as it should be, because it's all going according to plan.
have i told you lately your writing skills are exemplary, one feels as if they are there LOL...quite a visual on the analogy.. yet you bring in a great point....
How is this so exceptable to shame oneself with in the confines of religion yet in life you truly would be considered depressed or in need of a hug.....
I intend to Pm doc for his expertise also....
what i am wondering is if shame is good for you?? Many say it is as is being racked in guilt ,yet many are in therapy dealing with this or on medication..........
I almost feel as if it would be inhumane on my part to encourage anyone to feel shame or guilt.....i certainly won't do this with myslef as its well documented that guilt is actaully harmful for your health......
QUOTE(Shadow_Hill @ May 18 2007, 04:32 PM) [snapback]1682135[/snapback]
It's not good for us humans... it's good for gods who require us to feel it in order to require salvation. What point would there be in worshipping gods who require such activity if there was no sin to be forgiven for? Why would any of us choose to follow the Abrahamic god, for example, considering his track record when it comes to cruelty to humans, if there was no necessity? It is the shame we are forced to feel and to confront which leads to fear of punishment, and that leads us to seek forgiveness from the god who made us feel shameful and fearful in the first place by labelling the most human and unharmful of acts a sin.
I question everything, including the existence of the Creator I believe in, and I do not consider myself sinful, so I do not live in shame. These two things have been enough to have people label me arrogant... for refusing to cow tow before a god who would have me feel unworthy my entire life simply for being a human being.
How does one grow when they consider themselves to be less than? It's not possible. Instead the person spends their whole life feeling that nothing they do is ever enough... it's like trying to run up the down escalator... your little legs keep on going and yet you never get anywhere near the top. There is no joy in such an existence.
I question everything, including the existence of the Creator I believe in, and I do not consider myself sinful, so I do not live in shame. These two things have been enough to have people label me arrogant... for refusing to cow tow before a god who would have me feel unworthy my entire life simply for being a human being.
How does one grow when they consider themselves to be less than? It's not possible. Instead the person spends their whole life feeling that nothing they do is ever enough... it's like trying to run up the down escalator... your little legs keep on going and yet you never get anywhere near the top. There is no joy in such an existence.
Gosh S that is a great point one i have wondered too ALOT, why would one align with such a deity sort of a lesser god if you will....how do you grow if you are feeling less than??? what does one set as an inspiration if there is no hope and there are actual religions who flat out say no human will ever be as Jesus the door is closed he was the only one so don't try.........Gosh is it just me or is this pitiful ????
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 10:51 PM) [snapback]1682095[/snapback]
well sis CI says on one hand its human nature all these things as in we are all of it the whole human experience yet on the other calls it sinful and in need of forgiveness....i wonder how this affects ones well being?
One very important indicators of a healthy functional being is how they deal with negative feelings..shame is often a response to emotion that is not being dealt with effectively.....
It is a given that religion preaches a construct of no to low self worth....
One very important indicators of a healthy functional being is how they deal with negative feelings..shame is often a response to emotion that is not being dealt with effectively.....
It is a given that religion preaches a construct of no to low self worth....
God doesn't fit inside of your limited psychology construct.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]1682151[/snapback]
Gosh S that is a great point one i have wondered too ALOT, why would one align with such a deity sort of a lesser god if you will....how do you grow if you are feeling less than??? waht does one set as an inspiration if there is no hope and ther are actaul relgions who flat out say no human will ever be as jesus.....Gosh is it just me or is this pitiful ????
It's just you.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]1682153[/snapback]
God doesn't fit inside of your limited psychology construct.
It's just you.
It's just you.
Texas maybe you can answer how is shame good for you????
You may have something there Sheri. Religion, being nothing more than man's doomed attempt to do something to reach God may well result in shame, and only in shame, or in incorrectly placed shame. I'm not sure how that would apply to a relationship with God which is intended to allow you the freedom to grow and develop into the person you were always intended to be.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 11:55 PM) [snapback]1682157[/snapback]
Texas maybe you can answer how is shame good for you????
Shame is an indicator that one has gone past the God-given boundaries of the conscience; it is a guide that represents the need for self-correction. It is a message from your conscience to your mind that some correcting needs to be done. Of course this only works if you still have a conscience.
We seem to be confusing experiencing moments of shame for certain actions, with a perpetual state of shame, which is unhealthy and counter-productive, and itself an indicator that something is really wrong. God does not call for me to live in shame, and I don't. However, I experience shame when I do wrong, to a degree that directly corresponds to what I have done and how much I am aware of it.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 18 2007, 04:58 PM) [snapback]1682160[/snapback]
You may have something there Sheri. Religion, being nothing more than man's doomed attempt to do something to reach God may well result in shame, and only in shame, or in incorrectly placed shame. I'm not sure how that would apply to a relationship with God which is intended to allow you the freedom to grow and develop into the person you were always intended to be.
Great post son, does this play out if one feels they are sinful and unworthy???
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]1682166[/snapback]
Great post son, does this play out if one feels they are sinful and unworthy???
Yes, it does, because once you have acknowledged your sin and accepted God's gift, you are no longer unworthy... not because of anything you do, but because God bathes you in complete righteousness, and you are granted freedom from sin, so like heather said, it is not a constant state of shame, just shame when you know you have failed to be the person you are now completely free to be, but not constant, in fact it is a life that leads to joy and fulfillment.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]1682163[/snapback]
We seem to be confusing experiencing moments of shame for certain actions, with a perpetual state of shame, which is unhealthy and counter-productive, and itself an indicator that something is really wrong. God does not call for me to live in shame, and I don't. However, I experience shame when I do wrong, to a degree that directly corresponds to what I have done and how much I am aware of it.
what sort of things would this include heather ???
It sounds as if you are defining conscience that is a natural barometer we all have based on what we have decided is working or isn't working as its not producing an intended result and one seeks to correct or produce the intended result as in a natural consequence not an enforced one or make up one if you will ...all things have a cause and effect its life.... but it never requires one to feel bad about themselves or walk in shame....its the most natural thing in the world to want to create benefical behaviors for all involved this is natural to the secure human.........
what i'm saying is its natural l to want to be our best and if we aren't for whatever reasons its the most natural thing in the world to correct this...
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]1682181[/snapback]
what sort of things would this include heather ???
It sounds as if you are defining conscience that is a natural barometer we all have based on what we have decided is working or isn't working as its not producing an intended result and one seeks to correct or produce the intended result as in a natural consequence not an enforced one or make up one if you will ...all things have a cause and effect its life.... but it never requires one to feel bad about themselves or walk in shame....its the most natural thing in the world to want to create benefical behaviors for all involved this is natural to the secure human.........
what i'm saying is its natural l to want to be our best and if we aren't for whatever reasons its the most natural thing in the world to correct this...
It sounds as if you are defining conscience that is a natural barometer we all have based on what we have decided is working or isn't working as its not producing an intended result and one seeks to correct or produce the intended result as in a natural consequence not an enforced one or make up one if you will ...all things have a cause and effect its life.... but it never requires one to feel bad about themselves or walk in shame....its the most natural thing in the world to want to create benefical behaviors for all involved this is natural to the secure human.........
what i'm saying is its natural l to want to be our best and if we aren't for whatever reasons its the most natural thing in the world to correct this...
What sort of things would what include? I am not sure what you are referring to. What is included in doing wrong that I would feel ashamed of? Is this your question? I'm just not sure what you are asking.
And some people have a process called "awareness of wrongdoing and remorse for it." You know, remorse! That little thing that the court system looks for in people who have done wrong as a sign of accepting responsibility.
"You Know You're Right", Nirvana exploded into the mainstream, bringing along with it a subgenre of alternative rock called grunge.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 18 2007, 05:12 PM) [snapback]1682177[/snapback]
Yes, it does, because once you have acknowledged your sin and accepted God's gift, you are no longer unworthy... not because of anything you do, but because God bathes you in complete righteousness, and you are granted freedom from sin, so like heather said, it is not a constant state of shame, just shame when you know you have failed to be the person you are now completely free to be, but not constant, in fact it is a life that leads to joy and fulfillment.
let me make sure I understand you.. is this after you have excepted this forgiveness then after that you live, say as i do not ever feeling shame or guilt, nor do you ever feel sinful or unworthy as its unproductive and a dsyfunctional use of ones life ....
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 05:25 PM) [snapback]1682187[/snapback]
What sort of things would what include? I am not sure what you are referring to. What is included in doing wrong that I would feel ashamed of? Is this your question? I'm just not sure what you asking.
And some people have a process called "awareness of wrongdoing and remorse for it." You know, remorse! That little thing that the court system looks for in people who have done wrong as a sign of accepting responsibility.
And some people have a process called "awareness of wrongdoing and remorse for it." You know, remorse! That little thing that the court system looks for in people who have done wrong as a sign of accepting responsibility.
well it depends on how one is describing remorse, in my world it would seek to make a win win for all it would not require apologies or sorries or feeling bad or any type of punishment it would be used to gain wisdom and this wisdom would be applied and the mis-intended would not be repeated....Acceptance of responsibilty never means taking a fall, or being punished.... it means creating the behavior desired. and how one intends to do this and does this.............
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:29 AM) [snapback]1682191[/snapback]
let me make sure I understand you.. is this after you have excepted this forgiveness then after that you live, say as i do not ever feeling shame or guilt, nor do you ever feel sinful or unworthy as its unproductive and a dsyfunctional use of ones life ....
oh no. another one of those threads.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 07:29 PM) [snapback]1682191[/snapback]
let me make sure I understand you.. is this after you have excepted this forgiveness then after that you live, say as i do not ever feeling shame or guilt, nor do you ever feel sinful or unworthy as its unproductive and a dsyfunctional use of ones life ....
Oh, I feel shame and guilt, but not constantly only when it is the appropriate thing to feel. I feel guilt when I do something which is incorrect, improper, or hurtful of someone in some way. But I am no longer sinful... I still sin, but I am not sinful since my sins have been paid for. I feel guilt and/or shame when I sin
So, you don't feel shame or guilt?
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]1682203[/snapback]
well it depends on how one is describing remorse, in my world it would seek to make a win win for all it would not require apologies or sorries or feeling bad or any type of punishment it would be used to gain wisdom and this wisdom would be applied and the mis-intended would not be repeated....Acceptance of responsibilty never means taking a fall, or being punished.... it means creating the behavior desired. and how one intends to do this and does this.............
so you never say your sorry?
Don't worry, I got you Bumble.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
I sure am glad I don't live in your world.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]1682203[/snapback]
well it depends on how one is describing remorse, in my world it would seek to make a win win for all it would not require apologies or sorries or feeling bad or any type of punishment it would be used to gain wisdom and this wisdom would be applied and the mis-intended would not be repeated....Acceptance of responsibilty never means taking a fall, or being punished.... it means creating the behavior desired. and how one intends to do this and does this.............
I sure am glad I don't live in your world.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 07:42 PM) [snapback]1682213[/snapback]
Don't worry, I got you Bumble.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
Is that a hallucinogenic of some sort?
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 19 2007, 12:43 AM) [snapback]1682214[/snapback]
Is that a hallucinogenic of some sort?
Kind of by neccesity.....
I believe it actually opens the portals to the world that Sheri lives in.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 18 2007, 05:39 PM) [snapback]1682208[/snapback]
Oh, I feel shame and guilt, but not constantly only when it is the appropriate thing to feel. I feel guilt when I do something which is incorrect, improper, or hurtful of someone in some way. But I am no longer sinful... I still sin, but I am not sinful since my sins have been paid for. I feel guilt and/or shame when I sin
So, you don't feel shame or guilt?
So, you don't feel shame or guilt?
no shame or guilt , I do have a conscience and as i posted I seek to create a win win no one needs to tell me nor do I require myself to be guilty or shameful. to self correct.......I also put alot of thought into my actions ahead of time as to produce results that I intend...the last time i actually behaved in a manner that required correction I was at the beach on my beach cruiser and i was not paying as close attention as i should of been and i looked away to talk to my hubby and i ran into a man on his roller blades and knocked him down fortunately in the sand, i jumped off my bike and helped him told him i was not paying attention what could i do to help he was not interested in my help but i still offered and learned a very valuable lesson to pay attention and have applied it...i did not feel bad or shameful of guilty , i was simply not paying attention......
Now my hubby and a few others witnessing felt it was an accident and the man was far more upset than warranted and some felt i should of left him to carry on.... but i didn't feel that would be who i am.....i didn't take it personal either his colorful choice words, i sort of understood...LOL.....
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 19 2007, 06:09 AM) [snapback]1682208[/snapback]
So, you don't feel shame or guilt?
Jesus knows he going to be cruxified.. one of his follower said no need to go to jurusilum if that going to happen. But jesus came and he didn't ran away from the things which has to be happen. Jesus save so many pepole from sin.. he beleived they are doing sin, but still because of love he saved them. Because his mind said it is sin. Now his future planed to repay for this sin. Nothing than his own mind planned everything. We beleive what we do is guilt and and our mind remind us that we done guilt. To remove this shame we need some alter or to satisfy ourself that now the guilt is over we undergoing something.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 05:43 PM) [snapback]1682213[/snapback]
Don't worry, I got you Bumble.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
I sure am glad I don't live in your world.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
I sure am glad I don't live in your world.
Fair enough texas and for the record i do not take drugs of any kind under any circumstances .... .all the best.....
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:52 AM) [snapback]1682220[/snapback]
no shame or guilt , I do have a conscience and as i posted I seek to create a win win no one needs to tell me nor do I require myself to be guilty or shameful. to self correct.......I also put alot of thought into my actions ahead of time as to produce results that I intend...the last time i actually behaved in a manner that required correction I was at the beach on my beach cruiser and i was not paying as close attention as i should of been and i looked away to talk to my hubby and i ran into a man on his roller blades and knocked him down fortunately in the sand, i jumped off my bike and helped him told him i was not paying attention what could i do to help he was not interested in my help but i still offered and learned a very valuable lesson to pay attention and have applied it...i did not feel bad or shameful of guilty , i was simply not paying attention......
Now my hubby and a few others witnessing felt it was an accident and the man was far more upset than warranted and some felt i should of left him to carry on.... but i didn't feel that would be who i am.....i didn't take it personal either his colorful choice words, i sort of understood...LOL.....
Now my hubby and a few others witnessing felt it was an accident and the man was far more upset than warranted and some felt i should of left him to carry on.... but i didn't feel that would be who i am.....i didn't take it personal either his colorful choice words, i sort of understood...LOL.....
If you don't feel remorse when you do something wrong, it is not a win-win, it's just a win. For you. Because you have successfully convinced yourself that you do not owe an apology. It is disturbing for one to not feel remorse when something has occurred that is detrimental to the other person. Remorse should be proportionate to the wrong done, not overblown. But when it's not there, there is a serious problem.
I do not believe for a moment that you never do anything wrong.
Especially since you told us you teach your kids to lie. http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...p=1677995&#
A very serious problem.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 07:52 PM) [snapback]1682220[/snapback]
no shame or guilt , I do have a conscience and as i posted I seek to create a win win no one needs to tell me nor do I require myself to be guilty or shameful. to self correct.......I also put alot of thought into my actions ahead of time as to produce results that I intend...the last time i actually behaved in a manner that required correction I was at the beach on my beach cruiser and i was not paying as close attention as i should of been and i looked away to talk to my hubby and i ran into a man on his roller blades and knocked him down fortunately in the sand, i jumped off my bike and helped him told him i was not paying attention what could i do to help he was not interested in my help but i still offered and learned a very valuable lesson to pay attention and have applied it...i did not feel bad or shameful of guilty , i was simply not paying attention......
Now my hubby and a few others witnessing felt it was an accident and the man was far more upset than warranted and some felt i should of left him to carry on.... but i didn't feel that would be who i am.....i didn't take it personal either his colorful choice words, i sort of understood...LOL.....
Now my hubby and a few others witnessing felt it was an accident and the man was far more upset than warranted and some felt i should of left him to carry on.... but i didn't feel that would be who i am.....i didn't take it personal either his colorful choice words, i sort of understood...LOL.....
OK, so because you were being careless you hit some man and knocked him down, and probably hurt him, and since you tried to correct the situation and learned something you don't feel bad about this? Really?
Do you think it's healthy not to feel sorry for doing something which, even if you did not intend to, hurt someone physically, or emotionally, or psychologically?
I would have been embarrassed, and remorseful/guilty for having injured someone through carelessness. I would not have felt that way forever, but I would certainly have felt so at the time.
How do you hurt someone and not feel badly about it?
()()() I can imagine you do feel shame Texasgirl! Implying someone is on hallucinogens just because they hold to a personal world view, that you disagree with, says a lot about your personal world view of how a christian behaves in a thread, as they example they quite haven't gotten that bit about love thy neighbor as thyself. Because if you loved yourself, you wouldn't think it was christian to make fun of people you can't understand.
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
QUOTE(bumblesue @ May 18 2007, 05:41 PM) [snapback]1682210[/snapback]
so you never say your sorry?
i demonstrate or verbalize what I intend to do to create a win win for all to ensure it isnt' repeated....i expect to produce unintended results on occassion and allow myself room for this.....don't you??? LOL
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 19 2007, 01:04 AM) [snapback]1682232[/snapback]
()()() I can imagine you do feel shame Texasgirl! Implying someone is on hallucinogens just because they hold to a personal world view, that you disagree with, says a lot about your personal world view of how a christian behaves in a thread, as they example they quite haven't gotten that bit about love thy neighbor as thyself. Because if you loved yourself, you wouldn't think it was christian to make fun of people you can't understand.
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
Oh I see the big guns have been called in!
Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility; shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993).
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOCONNOR/428/428lect16.htm
Turns out I'm not the only one who disagrees with this "world view."
Loving people does not include being a doormat and agreeing with things that are disturbing.
And I imagine you DO know something about making fun of people!!
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 19 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]1682232[/snapback]
()()() I can imagine you do feel shame Texasgirl! Implying someone is on hallucinogens just because they hold to a personal world view, that you disagree with, says a lot about your personal world view of how a christian behaves in a thread, as they example they quite haven't gotten that bit about love thy neighbor as thyself. Because if you loved yourself, you wouldn't think it was christian to make fun of people you can't understand.
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
Indeed. Well said GW.
QUOTE(GoddessWhispers @ May 18 2007, 08:04 PM) [snapback]1682232[/snapback]
()()() I can imagine you do feel shame Texasgirl! Implying someone is on hallucinogens just because they hold to a personal world view, that you disagree with, says a lot about your personal world view of how a christian behaves in a thread, as they example they quite haven't gotten that bit about love thy neighbor as thyself. Because if you loved yourself, you wouldn't think it was christian to make fun of people you can't understand.
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
You do realize, for all that you say to what you believe being christian means for you, also means that all that you do is scrutinized by others as they read you as you lend your example of what a christian does. ()()()
You need to go back and read her post GW, because she never implied that. She was offering "aspirin" to someone, I'm the one that made the crack about hallucinogens, and I was not implying Sheri was on them I was insinuating I needed them to understand her point of view... if you're going to get on your high horse at least do so with the right person.
QUOTE
Texas Girl Heather: Don't worry, I got you Bumble.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
()()()
Take those, and she'll make sense in a minute.
QUOTE
Kind of by neccesity..... I believe it actually opens the portals to the world that Sheri lives in.
I read just fine, thank you
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]1682203[/snapback]
well it depends on how one is describing remorse, in my world it would seek to make a win win for all it would not require apologies or sorries or feeling bad or any type of punishment it would be used to gain wisdom and this wisdom would be applied and the mis-intended would not be repeated....Acceptance of responsibilty never means taking a fall, or being punished.... it means creating the behavior desired. and how one intends to do this and does this.............
One needs some type of pain-reliever or something to understand Sheri's world.
QUOTE(IamsSon @ May 18 2007, 06:01 PM) [snapback]1682226[/snapback]
OK, so because you were being careless you hit some man and knocked him down, and probably hurt him, and since you tried to correct the situation and learned something you don't feel bad about this? Really?
Do you think it's healthy not to feel sorry for doing something which, even if you did not intend to, hurt someone physically, or emotionally, or psychologically?
I would have been embarrassed, and remorseful/guilty for having injured someone through carelessness. I would not have felt that way forever, but I would certainly have felt so at the time.
How do you hurt someone and not feel badly about it?
Do you think it's healthy not to feel sorry for doing something which, even if you did not intend to, hurt someone physically, or emotionally, or psychologically?
I would have been embarrassed, and remorseful/guilty for having injured someone through carelessness. I would not have felt that way forever, but I would certainly have felt so at the time.
How do you hurt someone and not feel badly about it?
son... contrary to your view guilt and shame are not natural states of being they are taught....I felt responsible for the result i produced and corrected it, I inquired about his well being and offered to help in any way i could....
You know Texas i saw that post and with intention felt i would pass on replying and this is why there are all kinds of diversity in this world and california.... times l call upon us to blend other wise we alienate ourselves from others, i have taught my kids that their beleifs are not the only ones ...i have taught them social ettiquete and on this we will have to agree to disagree......
i can't help but inquire are there no social situations that you don't bring your beleifs into ???? I worked for the post office we were told not to bring our beleifs into the job as we serve all diversity and want to remain neutral and certainly not alienate anyone.......In the hair industry also this is not something we do as all people are sharing the human experience maybe its different in Texas....isn't that part of the bible belt ??
i was expressing to shadow how as a nb it is called upon us alot to go with the flow., tolerance requires this alot.....
i understand that in your view you have a definite way you see things but I do not share your view. or concerns...
For someone who's got a ridiculous parody of a faith as her signature, you certainly would be right about being able to imagine shame!
And if mocking my faith consistently and ignorantly is your idea of how an atheist behaves in a thread, then you are clearly exampling that you don't understand a thing about tolerance.
Hmm. Perhaps this is one of those backlashes you're always talking about?
If you loved yourself, you wouldn't think you were a very good atheist to mock and make fun of people YOU can't understand.
And if mocking my faith consistently and ignorantly is your idea of how an atheist behaves in a thread, then you are clearly exampling that you don't understand a thing about tolerance.
Hmm. Perhaps this is one of those backlashes you're always talking about?
If you loved yourself, you wouldn't think you were a very good atheist to mock and make fun of people YOU can't understand.
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 19 2007, 01:29 AM) [snapback]1682262[/snapback]
son... contrary to your view guilt and shame are not natural states of being they are taught....I felt responsible for the result i produced and corrected it, I inquired about his well being and offered to help in any way i could....
You know Texas i saw that post and with intention felt i would pass on replying and this is why there are all kinds of diversity in this world and california.... times l call upon us to blend other wise we alienate ourselves from others, i have taught my kids that their beleifs are not the only ones ...i have taught them social ettiquete and on this we will have to agree to disagree......
i can't help but inquire are there no social situations that you don't bring your beleifs into ???? I worked for the post office we were told not to bring our beleifs into the job as we serve all diversity and want to remain neutral and certainly not alienate anyone.......In the hair indsutry aklso this is not something we do as all people are sharing the human experience maybe its different in Texas....isn't that part of the bible belt ??
i was expressing to shadow how as a nb it is called upon us alot to go with the flow., tolerance requires this alot.....
i understand that in your view you have a definite way you see things but I do not share your view. or concerns...
You know Texas i saw that post and with intention felt i would pass on replying and this is why there are all kinds of diversity in this world and california.... times l call upon us to blend other wise we alienate ourselves from others, i have taught my kids that their beleifs are not the only ones ...i have taught them social ettiquete and on this we will have to agree to disagree......
i can't help but inquire are there no social situations that you don't bring your beleifs into ???? I worked for the post office we were told not to bring our beleifs into the job as we serve all diversity and want to remain neutral and certainly not alienate anyone.......In the hair indsutry aklso this is not something we do as all people are sharing the human experience maybe its different in Texas....isn't that part of the bible belt ??
i was expressing to shadow how as a nb it is called upon us alot to go with the flow., tolerance requires this alot.....
i understand that in your view you have a definite way you see things but I do not share your view. or concerns...
Yes Sheri, we will definitely agree to disagree about TEACHING KIDS LYING AS SOCIAL ETIQUETTE.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 06:33 PM) [snapback]1682267[/snapback]
For someone who's got a ridiculous parody of a faith as her signature, you certainly would be right about being able to imagine shame!
And if mocking my faith consistently and ignorantly is your idea of how an atheist behaves in a thread, then you are clearly exampling that you don't understand a thing about tolerance.
Hmm. Perhaps this is one of those backlashes you're always talking about?
If you loved yourself, you wouldn't think you were a very good atheist to mock and make fun of people YOU can't understand.
And if mocking my faith consistently and ignorantly is your idea of how an atheist behaves in a thread, then you are clearly exampling that you don't understand a thing about tolerance.
Hmm. Perhaps this is one of those backlashes you're always talking about?
If you loved yourself, you wouldn't think you were a very good atheist to mock and make fun of people YOU can't understand.
Texas possibly Gw struck close to home???? If there is something in her message that speaks to you then explore it and see if you can apply it if her message has no meaning to you then let it go...
QUOTE(Supra Sheri @ May 18 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]1682092[/snapback]
CI who has decided these things ??? I am forgiveness and all is forgiven......We create ways out of being punished would you agree , it seems few find it natural to encourage punishment ...
Sweety pie, are you asking me what makes lying, stealing, slandering, and jealousy wrong? Please don't. I am with you about forgiveness. I believe that forgiveness is a key to peace. however, your trying to say that there's nothing that needs to be forgiven, and that's where I draw the line.
QUOTE(texasgirlheather @ May 18 2007, 06:34 PM) [snapback]1682268[/snapback]
Yes Sheri, we will definitely agree to disagree about TEACHING KIDS LYING AS SOCIAL ETIQUETTE.
QUOTE(Child-Of-Israel @ May 18 2007, 06:41 PM) [snapback]1682279[/snapback]
Sweety pie, are you asking me what makes lying, stealing, slandering, and jealousy wrong? Please don't. I am with you about forgiveness. I believe that forgiveness is a key to peace. however, your trying to say that there's nothing that needs to be forgiven, and that's where I draw the line.
fair enough CI...You are entitled to your opinon....
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